My Christian brethen, I have not shared knowledge that is not known by christian scholarship. It is just not known by the average Christian.

The lesson so far is simple:

For Muslims, the lesson may be that many of the early Christian churches were much closer to Islam than previously thought.

For Christians, the lesson may be that the doctrine of the crucifixion was very much questioned and debated by the early churches.

With that in mind, perhaps they might be willing to take a second look at the teachings of Islam with some honesty, and to consider the similarities between the teachings of Islam and the foundations of early Christianity.

I have a busy day tomorrow so my next set of evidences will be delayed.


@MKO

Here is a translation of the Quran, it would be helpful.

At least, it will help you speak with knowledge instead of ranting.

The Quran A new translation by M. A. S. ABDEL HALEEM (Oxford press) is highly recommended because of the simple language....

Pdf copy:http://asadullahali.files./2010/09/the_quran.pdf

tbaba1234: My Christian brethen, I have not shared knowledge that is not known by christian scholarship. It is just not known by the average Christian.

The problem is that the Koran has NEVER been reviewed and criticized academically like the bible. Any body that tries to criticize it is killed or threatened with death. The few muslim scholars that left Islam and tried to criticize the authorship of the Koran where killed or attacked. Example is Turan Dursun a Turkish islamic scholar and ex-mufti who was murdered in 1990 for questioning the authorship of the Koran and how it came about. He tried to propose how he felt the koran came about and was warned by islamist to stop, he refused and was killed. Iban Warraq another critic of the traditional islamic narrative of how the koran came about does not even want to reveal his identity for fear of being killed by muslim fanatics. Former muslim scholar like Abul Kasem have been attacked for challenging the traditional islamic narrative on the authorship of the Koran. . .Muslims will never allow the Koran to be criticized academically like the bible. . .

If the Koran was open to critical evaluation as the bible is, the idea of an infallible Koran would not even be an issue. But muslims will not allow that, any body that tries it will be killed or attacked. So critics just allow muslims to have a field day and enjoy propagating their biased stories uncontested. . .Christians used to be like that until democracy was fully embraced and it changed everything. . .

tbaba1234: My Christian brethen, I have not shared knowledge that is not known by christian scholarship. It is just not known by the average Christian.

The lesson so far is simple:

For Muslims, the lesson may be that many of the early Christian churches were much closer to Islam than previously thought.

For Christians, the lesson may be that the doctrine of the crucifixion was very much questioned and debated by the early churches.

With that in mind, perhaps they might be willing to take a second look at the teachings of Islam with some honesty, and to consider the similarities between the teachings of Islam and the foundations of early Christianity.

I have a busy day tomorrow so my next set of evidences will be delayed.


@MKO

Here is a translation of the Quran, it would be helpful.

At least, it will help you speak with knowledge instead of ranting.

The Quran A new translation by M. A. S. ABDEL HALEEM (Oxford press) is highly recommended because of the simple language....

Pdf copy:http://asadullahali.files./2010/09/the_quran.pdf

which christainity r u talking abt@ d bolded,d one that came before islam or d one dt mohammed copied from.
I think mazaje has given u a good answer!
What u r doing is not new,yet Christainity is still standing...
If only islam can accommodate such criticism,debate,i am sure d foundation of islam wld v been exposed more than it is today...
I will leave u with ur thought,that is if u have any at all!

Mintayo:
which christainity r u talking abt@ d bolded,d one that came before islam or d one dt mohammed copied from.
I think mazaje has given u a good answer!
What u r doing is not new,yet Christainity is still standing...
If only islam can accommodate such criticism,debate,i am sure d foundation of islam wld v been exposed more than it is today...
I will leave u with ur thought,that is if u have any at all!

According to Islam, questioning the Allah's absolute authorship of the Koran is a serious blasphemy. A Muslim may face death sentence simply for nurturing an atom of doubt on Koran authenticity. The Koran is above all. Nothing in the creation of Allah is holier than the Koran. So muslims will use their life and blood to defend this narrative and tradition. . .The koran has NEVER been scrutinized academically like the bible so i wonder why tbaba is even trying to bring up the issue of biblical scholarship, as if the same can be said of the koran. . .Before the bible was opened for critical studies and scrutiny, every body just accepted the position and tradition of the church. . .Now we know so many things about the bible that we wouldn't have known if it wasn't opened for academic scrutiny. . .Muslims should open the koran up and allow it under go the same academic scrutiny and critical studies and lets see. . .Until then muslims have no right to say or talk about scholarship or the bible, since the koran has not undergone the kind of scrutiny and critical scholarship the bible went through. . .

Popular religions should be open for debate and criticism where people will contribute freely and let see the one that will weather the storm without without being aggressive. God give opportunity to investigate his creation for possibility of creation by man. I wouldn't no why what is made for man should be kept away from being investigated. God has his way of protecting what comes from him even if man would try condemn or phase it out.

mazaje:

According to Islam, questioning the Allah's absolute authorship of the Koran is a serious blasphemy. A Muslim may face death sentence simply for nurturing an atom of doubt on Koran authenticity. The Koran is above all. Nothing in the creation of Allah is holier than the Koran. So muslims will use their life and blood to defend this narrative and tradition. . .The koran has NEVER been scrutinized academically like the bible so i wonder why tbaba is even trying to bring up the issue of biblical scholarship, as if the same can be said of the koran. . .Before the bible was opened for critical studies and scrutiny, every body just accepted the position and tradition of the church. . .Now we know so many thing about the bible that we wouldn't have known if it wasn't opened for academic scrutiny. . .Muslims should open the koran up and allow it under go the same academic scrutiny and critical studies and lets see. . .Until then muslims have no right to say or talk about scholarship or the bible, since the koran has not undergone the kind of scrutiny and critical scholarship the bible went through. . .

If they had questioned the bible when the Catholics ruled the Europe, they would have faced burning at the stake , lol.

mazaje:

According to Islam, questioning the Allah's absolute authorship of the Koran is a serious blasphemy. A Muslim may face death sentence simply for nurturing an atom of doubt on Koran authenticity. The Koran is above all. Nothing in the creation of Allah is holier than the Koran. So muslims will use their life and blood to defend this narrative and tradition. . .The koran has NEVER been scrutinized academically like the bible so i wonder why tbaba is even trying to bring up the issue of biblical scholarship, as if the same can be said of the koran. . .Before the bible was opened for critical studies and scrutiny, every body just accepted the position and tradition of the church. . .Now we know so many things about the bible that we wouldn't have known if it wasn't opened for academic scrutiny. . .Muslims should open the koran up and allow it under go the same academic scrutiny and critical studies and lets see. . .Until then muslims have no right to say or talk about scholarship or the bible, since the koran has not undergone the kind of scrutiny and critical scholarship the bible went through. . .

You are absolutely correct....that is a form of hypocrisy!
And that is what they use in keeping the 'ignorant' muslim in bondage...don't ask question,jjust accept it as it is!
And this is one of d verses of quran their imams use to scare them...
O ye who believe! Ask not of things which,if they were made[b]known/clear[/b]unto you, would trouble you...Qn 5:101.

I remembere what a friend of mine said,he said and i quote..
I (he mentioned his name) cannot be a part of a religion whose origin is not clear; whose leaders are deceptive:whose practice is by force, who thirst for blood or murder at the slightest offence by men and whose goal is baseless and undefined....
I had no choice bt to agree with him!

mazaje:

According to Islam,questioning the Allah's absolute authorship of the Koran is a serious blasphemy.A Muslim may face death sentence simply for nurturing an atom of doubt on Koran authenticity.The Koran is above all.Nothing in the creation of Allah is holier than the Koran.

Who told you this?
Allah says in Surah Al-Baqarah 2:23-24-

And if you are doubt concerning that which We have sent down[Quran] to our slave,then bring a Surah of the like thereof and call your witnesses besides Allah if you are truthful.But if you do it not and surely you can never do it,then fear the fire whose fuel is men and stones prepared for the disbelievers.

So muslims will use their life and blood to defend this narrative and tradition. . .

Muslims don't need to defend the Quran with his life.Allah says in Surah Al-Hijr 15:9- Verily,We(Allah) have sent down the Quran and We will surely guard it..
This has been proving Since more than 1400 years ago,many tried to alter the Quran,published many fake Qurans but they failed woefully.This is a promise from Allah and Allah never fails in his promise.

The koran has NEVER been scrutinized academically like the bible so i wonder why tbaba is even trying to bring up the issue of biblical scholarship, as if the same can be said of the koran. . .Before the bible was opened for critical studies and scrutiny,every body just accepted the position and tradition of the church. . .Now we know so many things about the bible that we wouldn't have known if it wasn't opened for academic scrutiny. . .Muslims should open the koran up and allow it under go the same academic scrutiny and critical studies and lets see. . .Until then muslims have no right to say or talk about scholarship or the bible, since the koran has not undergone the kind of scrutiny and critical scholarship the bible went through. . .

Stop displaying your ignorance here.The time Magazine has reported that more than 60,000(Sixty thousand) Books have been written over 50years to discret Islam and the Quran! Average of 1,200 books per year.So,which critical scrutiny are you looking for again?
Many articles have been written online to discret the Quran.

Have you heard of Ali Sina who owns faithfreedom.com? Do you know how many anti-islamic websites available today? Do you know how many articles have been written against the Quran? Which scrutiny are you looking for again? Read this again,this is another article written just of recent against the authenticity of the Quran.

www.faithfreedom.org/the-quran-was-written-by-aliens-ii/

Allah says in Surah At-Taubah 9:32- They want to extinguish Allah's light[Islam] with their mouths,but Allah will not allow except that His light should be perfected even though the disbelievers hate it..
No matter the hatred for Islam and the scrutiny the Quran has gone and still going through,Allah will perfect his religion and guard his Book.....Peace

lanrexlan: Who told you this?
Allah says in Surah Al-Baqarah 2:23-24-

And if you are doubt concerning that which We have sent down[Quran] to our slave,then bring a Surah of the like thereof and call your witnesses besides Allah if you are truthful.But if you do it not and surely you can never do it,then fear the fire whose fuel is men and stones prepared for the disbelievers.

What is this nonsense?. . .What surah. . .many muslims have been taking this verse out of context. . .This was was a challenged to the pagan arabs o bring a book from their traditional pagan religions that can be compared to the koran, to claim it is a challenge to all religions is just ridiculous and funny because many oother religions have books that are at par with the Koran, examples are the bible and the verdes. . .

Muslims don't need to defend the Quran with his life.Allah says in Surah Al-Hijr 15:9- Verily,We(Allah) have sent down the Quran and We will surely guard it..
This has been proving Since more than 1400 years ago,many tried to alter the Quran,published many fake Qurans but they failed woefully.This is a promise from Allah and Allah never fails in his promise.
Stop displaying your ignorance here.The time Magazine has reported that more than 60,000(Sixty thousand) Books have been written over 50years to discret Islam and the Quran! Average of 1,200 books per year.So,which critical scrutiny are you looking for again?
Many articles have been written online to discret the Quran.

Have you heard of Ali Sina who owns faithfreedom.com? Do you know how many anti-islamic websites available today? Do you know how many articles have been written against the Quran? Which scrutiny are you looking for again? Read this again,this is another article written just of recent against the authenticity of the Quran.

www.faithfreedom.org/the-quran-was-written-by-aliens-ii/

If muslims do not need to defend the koran then why do muslims go about killing people when ever the koran has been defiled?. . .Why do muslims go about killing those that openly question the authorship of the Koran in their lands?. . .I have given you names of ex muslim scholars that were either killed or attacked in muslim lands because they questions, challenged and presented their own theory of how the koran came about. .

When I talk of scrutiny and critical scholarship I mean academic scrutiny. . .By academic scholarship and scrutiny I mean the Koran should be open to every body, by that i mean, academics from all over the world that are interested in digging into the history should be allowed access to the holy land, earliert manusxcripts should be allowed to be examined, archological digs etc, so that other things could be dug and found out about the people that lived their, their mode of life and other stuffs that have been buried in the ground etc, all these things will open up and show people how the ancient arabs lived their lives, the gods they worshiped etc. . . .But that is not possible because the muslim holy lands are prohibited to non muslims. No non muslims will be allowed to enter the muslim holy lands. . .The bible has been opened to such, any body can visit Israel and have a look. . .You can visit the vatican and have a look at the ancient manuscripts etc. . .Scholars have dug and found so many thing about the bible. . .You can not even try that with the Kofran, all you can do is build your own theory from what the muslims have presented. . .

Allah says in Surah At-Taubah 9:32- They want to extinguish Allah's light[Islam] with their mouths,but Allah will not allow except that His light should be perfected even though the disbelievers hate it..
No matter the hatred for Islam and the scrutiny the Quran has gone and still going through,Allah will perfect his religion and guard his Book.....Peace

I repeat.. . .The koran has NEVER been opened to academic scrutiny the way the bible has, muslims will never allow that to happen. . .

mazaje:

What is this nonsense?. . .What surah. . .many muslims have been taking this verse out of context. . .This was was a challenged to the pagan arabs o bring a book from their traditional pagan religions that can be compared to the koran,to claim it is a challenge to all religions is just ridiculous and funny because many oother religions have books that are at par with the Koran, examples are the bible and the verdes. . .

The shortest Surah(Chapter) in the Quran is Surah Kawther.Bring the like of Surah Kawther from the bible or the vedas.If the Quran and the bible agree on some points don't mean that's a Surah.
Are the arab pagans the only people living at arabia at that time? Maybe you will also tell me this challenge is for the arab pagans too.
Surah Al-Isra 17:88- And if Jinns and Mankind were together to produce the like of this Quran,they could not produce the like thereof,even if they helped one another.

If muslims do not need to defend the koran then why do muslims go about killing people when ever the koran has been defiled?. . .Why do muslims go about killing those that openly question the authorship of the Koran in their lands?

How many people were killed when those fake Qurans were published? How many have been killed when those thousand books were published?

...I have given you names of ex muslim scholars that were either killed or attacked in muslim lands because they questions,challenged and presented their own theory of how the koran came about. .

Ali Sina is an ex-muslim,now an atheist.Why is he still living?
Mirza Ghalib,
Mumin Salih are both ex-muslims,why are they alive?

When I talk of scrutiny and critical scholarship I mean academic scrutiny. . .By academic scholarship and scrutiny I mean the Koran should be open to every body,by that i mean,academics from all over the world that are interested in digging into the history should be allowed access to the holy land,earliert manusxcripts should be allowed to be examined,archological digs etc,so that other things could be dug and found out about the people that lived their, their mode of life and other stuffs that have been buried in the ground etc, all these things will open up and show people how the ancient arabs lived their lives,the gods they worshiped etc. . . .But that is not possible because the muslim holy lands are prohibited to non muslims. No non muslims will be allowed to enter the muslim holy lands. . .The bible has been opened to such, any body can visit Israel and have a look. . .You can visit the vatican and have a look at the ancient manuscripts etc. . .Scholars have dug and found so many thing about the bible. . .You can not even try that with the Kofran, all you can do is build your own theory from what the muslims have presented. . .

One of the earliest manuscripts is in Istanbul,Turkey.You can visit and have a look,don't you know how the arabs lived their early life? The names of their gods and how they worshipped them? Don't you know all these? Aren't there non-muslims studying Islamic history in the University of Madinah,Munawarrah?

I repeat.. . .The koran has NEVER been opened to academic scrutiny the way the bible has,muslims will never allow that to happen. . .

Can you us give the number of books that have been written against the bible?

lanrexlan: The shortest Surah(Chapter) in the Quran is Surah Kawther.Bring the like of Surah Kawther from the bible or the vedas.If the Quran and the bible agree on some points don't mean that's a Surah.
Are the arab pagans the only people living at arabia at that time? Maybe you will also tell me this challenge is for the arab pagans too.
Surah Al-Isra 17:88- And if Jinns and Mankind were together to produce the like of this Quran,they could not produce the like thereof,even if they helped one another.

What the hell are you talking about?. . .What is a surah?. .Is a surah not the same as a chapter?. . .I can bring multiple chapters in the bible that are at par with that in the Koran. . .What do you mean that if the bible and Koran agree on the same point doesn't mean its a surah?. . What are you saying?. . .The challenge was meant for the ancient pagan arabs. . .The bible has so many chapters that are at part with the Koran, many chapters in the Koran do not even make any sense at all. . .Even academics that have looked into it have stated so. . .Nöldeke, Theodor "The Qur'an," Sketches from Eastern History. Trans. J.S. Black. London: Adam and Charles Black, 1892.states that. .

"On the whole, while many parts of the Qur'an undoubtedly have considerable rhetorical power, even over an unbelieving reader, the book, aesthetically considered, is by no means a first-rate performance. ...let us look at some of the more extended narratives. It has already been noticed how vehement and abrupt they are where they ought to be characterized by epic repose. Indispensable links, both in expression and in the sequence of events, are often omitted, so that to understand these histories is sometimes far easier for us than for those who learned them first, because we know most of them from better sources. Along with this, there is a great deal of superfluous verbiage; and nowhere do we find a steady advance in the narration. Contrast, in these respects, "the most beautiful tale," the history of Joseph (xii.), and its glaring improprieties, with the story in Genesis, so admirably executed in spite of some slight discrepancies. Similar faults are found in the non-narrative portions of the Qur'an. The connection of ideas is extremely loose, and even the syntax betrays great awkwardness. Anancloutha are of frequent occurrence, and cannot be explained as conscious literary devices. Many sentences begin with a "when" or "on the day when," which seem to hover in the air, so that the commentators are driven to supply a "think of this" or some ellipsis. Again, there is no great literary skill evinced in the frequent and needless harping on the same words and phrases; in xviii., for example, "till that" (hatta idha) occurs no fewer than eight times. Muhammad, in short, is not in any sense a master of style."


We do not have material in the Qur'an to compose a biography of Muhammad because the book is a disjointed discourse, a pastiche [imitation, parody] of divine monologues that can be assembled into a homily [lecture, sermon] or perhaps a catechism [snippets of dogma] but that reveals little or nothing about the life of Muhammad and his contemporaries.... The Qur'an give us no assurance that its words and sentiments are likely to be authentic in the light of the context they were delivered and in the manner of their transmission. There are no clues as to when or where or why these particular words were being uttered.... The Qur'an is of no use whatsoever as an independent source for reconstructing the life of Muhammad. The Qur'an is not terribly useful even for reconstructing the Meccan milieu much less the life of the man who uttered its words; it is a text without context.

Source: Jay Smith, "Is the Qur'an the Word of God?", 1995

How many people were killed when those fake Qurans were published? How many have been killed when those thousand books were published?
Ali Sina is an ex-muslim,now an atheist.Why is he still living?
Mirza Ghalib,
Mumin Salih are both ex-muslims,why are they alive?

One of the earliest manuscripts is in Istanbul,Turkey.You can visit and have a look,don't you know how the arabs lived their early life? The names of their gods and how they worshipped them? Don't you know all these? Aren't there non-muslims studying Islamic history in the University of Madinah,Munawarrah?

Gerard Puin is one of the foremost forensic scientists on the subject of the Koran. In an 1999 Atlantic Monthly article, he said:

My idea is that the Koran is a kind of cocktail of texts that were not all understood even at the time of Muhammad. Many of them may even be a hundred years older than Islam itself. Even within the Islamic traditions there is a huge body of contradictory information, including a significant Christian substrate; one can derive a whole Islamic anti-history from them if one wants. The Qur'an claims for itself that it is 'mubeen,' or clear, but if you look at it, you will notice that every fifth sentence or so simply doesn't make sense. Many Muslims will tell you otherwise, of course, but the fact is that a fifth of the Qur'anic text is just incomprehensible. This is what has caused the traditional anxiety regarding translation. If the Qur'an is not comprehensible, if it can't even be understood in Arabic, then it's not translatable into any language. That is why Muslims are afraid. Since the Qur'an claims repeatedly to be clear but is not-there is an obvious and serious contradiction. Something else must be going on. -GP

These are some of the positions of the non muslim scholars that have learned classical arabic and studied the koran in its original language and i completely agree with most of them. . .The koran in many places is completely disjointed and does not make any sense. . .It makes sense in some parts but on many parts its just disjointed verbiage that makes no sense at all. . .I have read the english translation about 3 times. . .It has a lot of disjointed verbiage in it. . .The claim that a surah should be brought that is at par with the koran is just ridiculous since a lot of the koran is just nonsense disjointed talk. . .

How many people were killed when those fake Qurans were published? How many have been killed when those thousand books were published?

Which fake koran are you talking about?. . .People are killed everyday in muslim lands for blasphemy or desecration of the koran, don't you follow the news?. . .Or are you trying to claim ignorance?. . .How many people lost their lives when some pastor said he was going to burn the koran for example?. . .What are you taslking about publishing of fake korans?. . .Where and when did that happen?. .

Ali Sina is an ex-muslim,now an atheist.Why is he still living?
Mirza Ghalib,
Mumin Salih are both ex-muslims,why are they alive?

Are they still living in muslim lands?. . .It is common knowledge that all those that leave islam are to be killed. . .

Fatwa to kill apostates sparks fierce controversy in Morocco

RABAT - A fatwa published this week by Morocco's Higher Council of Religious Scholars (CSO) calling for the death penalty for Muslims who renounce their faith has sparked fierce controversy in the country.

http://www.middle-east-online.com/english/?id=58230

An atheist was jailed in indonesia for saying that god does not exist on facebook. . .

Man jailed in Indonesia for atheist Facebook posts
Human rights group say religious intolerance on the rise in the populous Muslim country

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/man-jailed-indonesia-atheist-facebook-posts-article-1.1096779#ixzz2cF00HG5j

An atheist can NEVER leave islam and criticize it constatatly in muslim lands. . .He WILL be killed that is a FACT. . .You can never leave islam, remain in muslims land and constantly criticize it, you must be killed. That is the FACT. . .Christians leave christianity and openly and constatnly criticize it in the west. . .The even engage christians in public debates all the time. . .Muslsims do not even engage non muslims in open debate on topcis that relate to the origins of the koran. . .

One of the earliest manuscripts is in Istanbul,Turkey.You can visit and have a look,don't you know how the arabs lived their early life? The names of their gods and how they worshipped them? Don't you know all these? Aren't there non-muslims studying Islamic history in the University of Madinah,Munawarrah?

They are NOT allowed to study it openly and challenge it. . .I said muslims lands have not been dug and combs the way Israel has been combed by various archaeologist, muslims will not even allow you to teach anything about Koranic history in their universities if you do not believe in the Koran. there are many atheist and deist that teach new testatment history and head department of religion in many universities in the west. . .The koran has NEVER undergone the academic scrutiny the bible has undergone. . .No muslims will allow a person that does not believe in the divine origins of the koran to even go close to their university and put forth his theory academically. . .Any one that tries it will be killed. . .Abul Kasem a former islamic scholar had is house burnt in Yemen for saying that the Koran had no divine origin. . .He stated that the prophet Mohammed was once a pagan and sacrificed to pagan gods, something that was quoted in one of the hadiths and for that he was attacked, he had to run to the west to seek refuge. . .

Can you us give the number of books that have been written against the bible?

They are numerous. . .My point is academic scrutiny. . .Muslims will never allow that to be done to their koran. . .They will always kill and burn than allow that to happen. . .Muslims believe the koran to be the greatest miracle on earth. . .Going to debate them, excavate their lands to find out its true origin or putting forth theories and critical scholarship as to how its origins came about will never be tolerated. . .Muslims as i stated to not even engage people academically in the public debates about the origin of the koran in most cases the way christians do. . .Any ex muslims living in muslim land that openly criticizes the traditional islamic narrative about the origin of the koran will be killed that is a fact. . .You can try it yourself. . .Go to saudi Arabia, claim you are an ex muslim and try to publicly criticize or challenge the traditional story of the muslims with regards to the origin of the koran and see if ytou will last long. . .

Welcome after all your long epistles.My questions are very simple.
1)Bring a chapter from the bible that's the same with the Quran.I mean a full chapter and not some few verses.
2)You said the Quran is a book of disjointed discourse and sometimes makes no sense.You and all your mentors should come together and produce the like of the Quran,that should be very simple for you I think.
Surah Al-Isra 17:88- And if Jinns and Mankind were together to produce the like of this Quran,they could not produce the like thereof,even if they helped one another.

I think an important question people dont ask is- what makes d quran special.
Assume i do not believe in its revelation (not a muslim). If i get hold of a quran, what in it will make me feel it is unique/divine.
This will be the basis of comparism with " another book being like it"
Gods guidance is d only true one. Please always pray that "God guide us aright"

Shalom

ghazzal: I think an important question people dont ask is- what makes d quran special.
Assume i do not believe in its revelation (not a muslim). If i get hold of a quran, what in it will make me feel it is unique/divine.
This will be the basis of comparism with " another book being like it"
Gods guidance is d only true one. Please always pray that "God guide us aright"

Shalom

If you have the time, read through our journey through the Quran:

https://www.nairaland.com/1007823/journey-through-quran-amazing-quran

And this thread might also be useful:

https://www.nairaland.com/972776/amazing-quran-season-1


@ Mazaje, If we ever do meet, I will have a discussion with you on just first chapter of the Quran, trust me, even if you do not become muslim, you will leave with a lot more respect for the coherence of the book.


More Evidences today.

lanrexlan: Welcome after all your long epistles.My questions are very simple.
1)Bring a chapter from the bible that's the same with the Quran.I mean a full chapter and not some few verses.
2)You said the Quran is a book of disjointed discourse and sometimes makes no sense.You and all your mentors should come together and produce the like of the Quran,that should be very simple for you I think.
Surah Al-Isra 17:88- And if Jinns and Mankind were together to produce the like of this Quran,they could not produce the like thereof,even if they helped one another.

What exactly are you on about?. . .Why must a chapter from the bible or any other religious text be the same with the Koran when they are not the same book?. . .How does this challenge make sense?. . .I can bring chapters from the bible that are at par with the koran when it comes to how god is praised and ex-halted for example. . .The bible is not the same book with the koran as such i can not bring a chapter from the bible that is the same with the koran. . .Your challenge makes no sense at all. . .You fail to understand the historical context of the passage, the ancient arabs pride themselves in their poetical prowess, the challenge was for the ancient pagan arabs to produce a book that has as much poetical prowess as the koran. . .Its claer you do not even know the historical context of the challenge. . .

You keep repeating this challenge that makes no sense. .is the koran the best book in the world?. . .Pls name anything, any system that has been talked about in the Koran, be it science, politics, economics, astronomy, law, banking, finance anything that the Koran has touched and I will provide books that have explained these systems much better than the koran can ever attempt to explain them. . .The modern biology text book used in secondary schools in Nigeria explain biology more than the koran can ever explain it so what exactly are you saying?. . .

tbaba1234:

@ Mazaje, If we ever do meet, I will have a discussion with you on just first chapter of the Quran, trust me, even if you do not become muslim, you will leave with a lot more respect for the coherence of the book.


More Evidences today.

I admit the koran has considerable rhetorical power, its obvious to any one that reads it. . .Because that is the tradition of the ancient Arabs. . .In ancient Arabia poetry was a passion. Poets were highly regarded in society, and the words of many accomplished poets were regarded as next to god's words. In a desert land, bereft of much entertainment and natural relaxation, the ancient Arabs used to find solace, peace, tranquility and even the raging emotion of war and revenge through the mesmerising words of their poets. Poets supplied the Arabs with their mental food. . .So it is normal for a book like the koran to be very rich in poetry. . .

mazaje:

What exactly are you on about?. . .Why must a chapter from the bible or any other religious text be the same with the Koran when they are not the same book?. . .How does this challenge make sense?. . .I can bring chapters from the bible that are at par with the koran when it comes to how god is praised and ex-halted for example. . .The bible is not the same book with the koran as such i can not bring a chapter from the bible that is the same with the koran. . .Your challenge makes no sense at all. . .You fail to understand the historical context of the passage, the ancient arabs pride themselves in their poetical prowess, the challenge was for the ancient pagan arabs to produce a book that has as much poetical prowess as the koran. . .Its claer you do not even know the historical context of the challenge. . .

You keep repeating this challenge that makes no sense. .is the koran the best book in the world?. . .Pls name anything, any system that has been talked about in the Koran, be it science, politics, economics, astronomy, law, banking, finance anything that the Koran has touched and I will provide books that have explained these systems much better than the koran can ever attempt to explain them. . .The modern biology text book used in secondary schools in Nigeria explain biology more than the koran can ever explain it so what exactly are you saying?. . .

Oops,why ranting all these? Is the Quran a science textbook? You said the Quran is a book of disjointed discourse,the challenge is that you and your mentors should come together and produce the like of the Quran,is that too hard to produce?

Interesting thread...

tbaba and lanrexlan preach on brother am loving these...

Sister Sissie I no forget you

mazaje:

I admit the koran has considerable rhetorical power, its obvious to any one that reads it. . .Because that is the tradition of the ancient Arabs. . .In ancient Arabia poetry was a passion. Poets were highly regarded in society, and the words of many accomplished poets were regarded as next to god's words. In a desert land, bereft of much entertainment and natural relaxation, the ancient Arabs used to find solace, peace, tranquility and even the raging emotion of war and revenge through the mesmerising words of their poets. Poets supplied the Arabs with their mental food. . .So it is normal for a book like the koran to be very rich in poetry. . .

I am not talking about the rhythm. I am talking of something far greater. Remember, the Quran humbled some of the greatest poets in Arabia and they couldn't reproduce it, it is not about rhythmic patterns. What am i going to talk about (if we meet) has nothing to do with poetry.

I am talking about coherence.

Just a little discussion on the longest chapter (286 ayat(verses) and there is a lot to say but just a few words:

The surah was revealed over several (about 12 years) years mostly in the city of medina in different circumstances as spoken word. Yet the ideas are so beautifully woven together and coherent in an incredible fashion. This surah exhibits a fascinating kind of coherence known as the 'ring composition...

Definition of Ring composition

'In ring compositions there must be a correspondence between the beginning and the end. The correspondence usually involves the repetition of a striking or evident word or phrase, and there must be a clear thematic connection between the two sections. The correspondence serves to complete the circle and provide closure. Also, the internal sections - within the ring - must correspond to each other.' ("Thinking in Circles: An Essay on Ring Composition" Mary Douglas)

In Raymond Farrin's 'Surat al-Baqara: A Structural Analysis'

Raymond K Farrin concludes on the ring composition of surah al-Baqarah:

"Indeed this sura exhibits marvellous justness of design. It is precisely and tightly arranged, as we have seen, according to the principles of ring composition; even the section lengths fit perfectly in the overall scheme. Moreover, the precise structure serves as a guide, pointing to key themes in the sura. These occur, according to the logic of the pattern, at the centers of individual rings and, particularly, at the center of the whole sura. At the center of the sura, again, one finds instructions to face Mecca — this being a test of faith; identification of the Muslims as a new, middle community; and the message that all people, regardless of their qibla or spiritual orientation, should race to do good and God will bring them together."

A simplified picture of the structure is shown below



He wrote a whole book on the structure because he was so fascinated by it. He is a professor of Arabic which gives him a higher level of appreciation. This surah has 286 verses... That is how long it is, yet there is a remarkable coherence.

It requires deep thought to understand its flow. You also have to understand what it is talking about and how one discussion links to the next. It is not always easy to know but if you know the context of revelation and the language, it makes things easier. This is something, i have been studying and i think, it is incredible.

You can not read it like a bed time story, it requires some thought. Your claim of incoherence primarily comes from a lack of appreciation or understanding of what it is saying

Brother lanrexlan have said it all here in this two verses in the Quran


Surah Al-Isra 17:88- And if Jinns and Mankind were together to produce the like of this Quran,they could not produce the like thereof,even if they helped one another.

Surah Al-Baqarah 2:23-24- And if you are doubt concerning that which We have sent down [Quran] to our slave,then bring a Surah of the like thereof and call your witnesses besides Allah if you are truthful.But if you do it not and surely you can never do it,then fear the fire whose fuel is men and stones prepared for the disbelievers.

lanrexlan: Oops,why ranting all these? Is the Quran a science textbook? You said the Quran is a book of disjointed discourse,the challenge is that you and your mentors should come together and produce the like of the Quran,is that too hard to produce?

Produce a book like the koran in what context?. . .Is it in its rhythm, poetic prowess, practical knowledge, scientific knowledge or what?. . Stop throwing words around without context. . .

tbaba1234:

I am not talking about the rhythm. I am talking of something far greater. Remember, the Quran humbled some of the greatest poets in Arabia and they couldn't reproduce it, it is not about rhythmic patterns. What am i going to talk about (if we meet) has nothing to do with poetry.

I am talking about coherence.

Just a little discussion on the longest chapter (286 ayat(verses) and there is a lot to say but just a few words:

The surah was revealed over several (about 12 years) years mostly in the city of medina in different circumstances as spoken word. Yet the ideas are so beautifully woven together and coherent in an incredible fashion. This surah exhibits a fascinating kind of coherence known as the 'ring composition...

Definition of Ring composition

'In ring compositions there must be a correspondence between the beginning and the end. The correspondence usually involves the repetition of a striking or evident word or phrase, and there must be a clear thematic connection between the two sections. The correspondence serves to complete the circle and provide closure. Also, the internal sections - within the ring - must correspond to each other.' ("Thinking in Circles: An Essay on Ring Composition" Mary Douglas)

In Raymond Farrin's 'Surat al-Baqara: A Structural Analysis'

Raymond K Farrin concludes on the ring composition of surah al-Baqarah:

"Indeed this sura exhibits marvellous justness of design. It is precisely and tightly arranged, as we have seen, according to the principles of ring composition; even the section lengths fit perfectly in the overall scheme. Moreover, the precise structure serves as a guide, pointing to key themes in the sura. These occur, according to the logic of the pattern, at the centers of individual rings and, particularly, at the center of the whole sura. At the center of the sura, again, one finds instructions to face Mecca — this being a test of faith; identification of the Muslims as a new, middle community; and the message that all people, regardless of their qibla or spiritual orientation, should race to do good and God will bring them together."

A simplified picture of the structure is shown below



He wrote a whole book on the structure because he was so fascinated by it. He is a professor of Arabic which gives him a higher level of appreciation. This surah has 286 verses... That is how long it is, yet there is a remarkable coherence.

It requires deep thought to understand its flow. You also have to understand what it is talking about and how one discussion links to the next. It is not always easy to know but if you know the context of revelation and the language, it makes things easier. This is something, i have been studying and i think, it is incredible.

You can not read it like a bed time story, it requires some thought. Your claim of incoherence primarily comes from a lack of appreciation or understanding of what it is saying

I'll study this tomorrow. . .Am sleepy. . .Good night. . .

I wonder how a book that has produced some of the worst mayhem and carnage in human history can be considered to be a miracle from heaven.

lanrexlan: You should check those biblical verses and see maybe I am accusing or it's exactly what's written there.

Beloved, I am sorry to tell u that u cannot understand, because 1corinthians 2:14 . But know this for sure Jesus Christ is the Lord, the unfolding daily events in world today, even concerning Islam as accurately predicted by the bible is my witness. Shalom.

mazaje:

I'll study this tomorrow. . .Am sleepy. . .Good night. . .

Good and leave the christians to defend their faith.

tbaba1234:

Good and leave the christians to defend their faith.

loooool...we don't even need to defend anything...God is more than able to defend His words as He has been doing!
I can't just help it but laugh...i v always said,d quran has no power at all...imagine talking abt poetry,rhymn in a book that supposed to b from God,a book that suppose to bring salvation, healing,power, conviction,repentance,deliverance...etc but no,it contain none-of the above just an instructional manual!
Everything abt d quran is worldliness,done in d flesh,nothing spiritual,no wonder its prophet cld nt perform any miracle!
What mazaje said is known to us christains too,quran can not withstand proper scrutiny,debating,searchings,no questions dt 'troubles' d mind can be asked as it is done with christainity,no wonder ur 'islam for muslims' section as been turned another 'Saudi Arabia' in NL.
I will open a thread soon challenging you muslims in ur section to allow a 'free' flow of scrutiny,challenge and questions for just 'three months' and lets us see what will happen!
I v a book here by muslim converts to who had to change his name when a 'fatwa' was placed on his head.
The rate at which muslims flood d religion section now is quite amazing...it show that christainity is a big concern on their 'shoulder'!
And no matter how much u try at tbaba,no matter how much false evidence u bring...we all know the truth and the TRUTH has set us free!
Shalom.

Evidence 3b

The denial of Peter

It is recorded in the gospels that peter, a disciple of Jesus denied him '3 times' after he was arrested. The story starts from the night, Jesus was arrested. The four gospels agree that Jesus ate a last. meal with the disciples. Matthew, Mark, and Luke portray this meal as being the Passover meal, while John portrays it as being the day prior to the Passover. (Shepherd MH (1971). Page 722.)

The Heroic Peter

According to the bible, when Jesus was arrested, Peter took a sword and attacked the arresting crowd.

He had to have known that his act of heroism would lead to his immediate death, yet he was more than willing to sacrifice his life in his desperate attempt to save Jesus.

He was able to get in one strike and cut off the ear of Malchus, the slave of the high priest. Jesus is said to have stopped the fight (In luke, he is said to have healed the ear). Jesus surrendered himself and the disciples fled into the night.

Cowardly Peter

Brave Peter is said to have followed Jesus at apparent great risk. What happens next is very interesting.

The authors of the four canonical gospels would have the reader believe that Peter did a complete about-face. They would have the reader believe that the heroic Peter, who had single-handedly attacked the Roman legionnaires and Temple police, and who had risked his life in even following Jesus into the outer courtyard, had suddenly become a coward, because he three times denied any association with Jesus before the cock crowed that morning.

The exact wordings of Peter are vital in this regard. Could it be that peter was simply telling the truth? So let us see what peter denied:

Mathew (Matthew 26:69-75.)

Mathew l A: You were with Jesus the Galilean.
D: I do not know what you are talking about.

Mt2 A: This man was with Jesus of Nazareth.
D: I do not know the man.

Mt3 A: You are one of them, for your accent betrays you.
D:I do not know the man.

Luke (Luke 22:55-62.)

Ll A: This man also was with him.
D:I do not know him.

L2 A: You also are one of them.
D:Man, I am not.

L3 A: This man also was with him.
D:I do not know what you are talking about.

Mark (Mark 14:66-72.)

Ml A: You were with Jesus from Nazareth.
D:I do not know what you are talking about.

M2 A: This man is one of them.
D:But again he denied it.

M3 A: You are one of them; for you are a Galilean.
D:I do not know this man.

John (John 18:17-18,25-27.)

JI A: You are one of this man's disciples.
D: I am not.

12 A: You are one of his disciples.
D: Iamnot.

13 A: Did I not see you in the garden with him.
D: Peter denied it.

On a side note, the four canonical gospels agreed that peter made denials but they do not seem to agree on what the accusations were.

Peter is simply stating "I do not know this man", where "this man" may not be Jesus Christ. We will see why.

Luke and John present a united front, Peter is denying knowledge of the man being interrogated. What if that man were not Jesus Christ? In that case, Peter's denials are totally truthful.

We do not have to deal with the bewildering contradiction of a man who singlehandedly wanted to fight Roman soldiers and Temple police, indicating bravery and faith to a coward who denies him just in a few hours later.

The denials in Mark and mathew are far more interesting because they provide us with proof that peter was just saying the truth afterall.

Phrases as "Jesus the Galilean", "Jesus of Nazareth", and "Jesus, the man from Nazareth" in Mathew and Mark are quite significant and important, particularly if you look at it in the context of first century Palestine.

The superficial reader of the bible equates "Galilean" with "a man from the geographical area of Galilee", which the Bible indicates Jesus Christ was. Likewise, most such readers equate "Nazareth" with a town in Galilee, which the Bible indicates was the town, in which Jesus Christ was raised. However, both of these terms had radically alternative meanings during the first half of the first century CE.

So let's travel back to the first century.

waldigit :


Beloved, I am sorry to tell u that u cannot understand, because 1corinthians 2:14 . But know this for sure Jesus Christ is the Lord, the unfolding daily events in world today, even concerning Islam as accurately predicted by the bible is my witness. Shalom.

This is a super story,you are flowing with the 'holy spirit' right,please explain to us.

Judaism in the first century CE

During the first half of the first century, Judaism was divided into many political and religious sects and factions. Some of which include : Sadducees (Zadokites); Hasidim (the root group for both the Pharisees and the Essenes); Pharisees (Perishaiya); Zealots; Hasmoneans; Sicarii; Essenes; Herodians; Nazoreans (Nazarites or Nazirites); and Galileans. (A) Danielou J, Marrou H (1964). B) Asimov I (1969). C) Leon-Dufour X (1983). D) Schonfield HJ (1967). E) ---(1998p). F) Bornkamm G (1998).)

It is only within this context that terms such as "Jesus the Galilean", "Jesus of Nazareth", and "Jesus, the man from Nazareth" can be properly and fully understood.

Galileans

The far right of the Jewish sects included the Zealots and Hasmoneans (A) Josephus F (1988). B) Leon-Dufour X (1983)). There were the groups responsible for revolutionary movements against the roman empire.

Typically, Zealot is used as an umbrella word covering various groups and sub-groups, including the Sicarii and the Galileans. The Bible indicates that at least two of Jesus' disciples were from the far right of the cultural-political spectrum: Simon, the Zealot (Luke 6:15; Acts 1:13) ; and Judas Iscariot (the Sicarii) (Matthew 10:4; 26:14; Mark 3:19; 14:10; Luke 6:16; 22:3; John 6:71; 12:4; 13:2;13:26.).

There was a subgroup of the zealots known as the Galileans (A) Dupont-Sommer A (1967). B) Leon-Dufour X (1983).)

What is the history of the Galileans? How did that name come about?

In 6 CE, Quirinius was appointed governor of syria (Josephus F (1988).) and one of his first task was to impose a census on palestine for tax purposes. (A) Luke 2:1-3. B) Josephus F (1988). C) Bornkamm G (1998).)

This lead to dissent by a small group of jews led by Judas of Gamala (Also, known as Judas the Galilean). He led a revolt against the Roman authority . He was killed by the roman authorities and those who came after him.

Essentially, he gave birth to the movement, known as galileans.

The galileans continued their activities through parts of the first century.

Hence the term 'Jesus the Galilean refers to a member of that revolutionary movement in the first century.

Could this be refering to ' Jesus, King of the Jews'.?

Peter denying knowing Jesus the Galilean is actually a true statement.

Nazarene

The Nazarene was jews from the far right and comes from the Aramaic word "Nasren" or "Nasraya", which means "the preservers. SundbergAC (1971).

They are conservative christians and Jesus does not fit the bill.

tbaba1234: Evidence 3b

The denial of Peter

It is recorded in the gospels that peter, a disciple of Jesus denied him '3 times' after he was arrested. The story starts from the night, Jesus was arrested. The four gospels agree that Jesus ate a last. meal with the disciples. Matthew, Mark, and Luke portray this meal as being the Passover meal, while John portrays it as being the day prior to the Passover. (Shepherd MH (1971). Page 722.)

The Heroic Peter

According to the bible, when Jesus was arrested, Peter took a sword and attacked the arresting crowd.

He had to have known that his act of heroism would lead to his immediate death, yet he was more than willing to sacrifice his life in his desperate attempt to save Jesus.

He was able to get in one strike and cut off the ear of Malchus, the slave of the high priest. Jesus is said to have stopped the fight (In luke, he is said to have healed the ear). Jesus surrendered himself and the disciples fled into the night.

Cowardly Peter

Brave Peter is said to have followed Jesus at apparent great risk. What happens next is very interesting.

The authors of the four canonical gospels would have the reader believe that Peter did a complete about-face. They would have the reader believe that the heroic Peter, who had single-handedly attacked the Roman legionnaires and Temple police, and who had risked his life in even following Jesus into the outer courtyard, had suddenly become a coward, because he three times denied any association with Jesus before the cock crowed that morning.

The exact wordings of Peter are vital in this regard. Could it be that peter was simply telling the truth? So let us see what peter denied:

Mathew (Matthew 26:69-75.)

Mathew l A: You were with Jesus the Galilean.
D: I do not know what you are talking about.

Mt2 A: This man was with Jesus of Nazareth.
D: I do not know the man.

Mt3 A: You are one of them, for your accent betrays you.
D:I do not know the man.

Luke (Luke 22:55-62.)

Ll A: This man also was with him.
D:I do not know him.

L2 A: You also are one of them.
D:Man, I am not.

L3 A: This man also was with him.
D:I do not know what you are talking about.

Mark (Mark 14:66-72.)

Ml A: You were with Jesus from Nazareth.
D:I do not know what you are talking about.

M2 A: This man is one of them.
D:But again he denied it.

M3 A: You are one of them; for you are a Galilean.
D:I do not know this man.

John (John 18:17-18,25-27.)

JI A: You are one of this man's disciples.
D: I am not.

12 A: You are one of his disciples.
D: Iamnot.

13 A: Did I not see you in the garden with him.
D: Peter denied it.

On a side note, the four canonical gospels agreed that peter made denials but they do not seem to agree on what the accusations were.

Peter is simply stating "I do not know this man", where "this man" may not be Jesus Christ. We will see why.

Luke and John present a united front, Peter is denying knowledge of the man being interrogated. What if that man were not Jesus Christ? In that case, Peter's denials are totally truthful.

We do not have to deal with the bewildering contradiction of a man who singlehandedly wanted to fight Roman soldiers and Temple police, indicating bravery and faith to a coward who denies him just in a few hours later.

The denials in Mark and mathew are far more interesting because they provide us with proof that peter was just saying the truth afterall.

Phrases as "Jesus the Galilean", "Jesus of Nazareth", and "Jesus, the man from Nazareth" in Mathew and Mark are quite significant and important, particularly if you look at it in the context of first century Palestine.

The superficial reader of the bible equates "Galilean" with "a man from the geographical area of Galilee", which the Bible indicates Jesus Christ was. Likewise, most such readers equate "Nazareth" with a town in Galilee, which the Bible indicates was the town, in which Jesus Christ was raised. However, both of these terms had radically alternative meanings during the first half of the first century CE.

So let's travel back to the first century.

^^^ Shameless plagiarism! http://www.tellmeaboutislam.com/the-crucifixion-a-question-of-identity.html

In the past both davidylan and myself pointed out other examples of fraudulent plagiarism by the very same poster.

Anyway we have also heard of Al Taqiyyah or whatever nonsense --- so how much more intellectual fraud.

Well I guess the guy will fool some people into seeing him as some form of "intellectual".

Disgraceful!

^ Actually, the posts have been referenced so far plus it did not come from that link.....

I am obviously summarising what has been written ...

Disprove the points and don't distract from it.

^^^ You are a proven fraud and shameless plagiarist -- as we have shown in the past.

You can do it in your enclave on the other forum and fool ignorant people there. We may also choose to ignore you here because we consider such fraudulent plagiarism worthless in terms of things to engage; but once in a while someone like me will point out that you are simply --- a fraud!