You forgot to add that in the same US of A Millions of the infrastructural development projects and actual development of citizens are not RUN by the private sector but by government. You forgot to add the many developmental projects currently funded by the government to help DEVELOP and ensure individuals are able to catch up should they need to ( welfare, housing, unemployment projects etc programs out there) You also forgot to mention that if government were to pull out today, the economy would fall like a ton of bricks. COME ON!!!

Why do we like to deal dishonestly when we are dealing with our own selves here?

paddy_lo:

total Govt spending in the U.S is about 22% of GDP. . .majority of the economy is still private sector driven
Most economists will tell u that govt spending crowds out private sector investments
it hurts the economy 2-3yrs out. . especially if the government is borrowing to spend like it is doing in the U.S right now.  . .
even obama touts his stimulus as being majority private sector driven.  .that means most of the contracts awarded are done by the private sector
again govt is just trying to pull the economy out of recession with its spending. . .
its the normal business cycle and its been going on for the last 100yrs
even without the stimulus the economy here would still have pulled itself out. . once interest rates were slashed to 0% by the feds

as for welfare and unemployment benefits. . well thats not development.thats becoming a nanny state.  .
i would not advocate that for nigeria.  .

Please, can we stop labeling the Private sector as new SAVIOUR of some kind?  Not saying the Private sector is EVIL for looking everywhere it can for profit, NO. I believe in making profit but I will be first to admit that any country  expecting the private sector to bail it out of its own lack of good government is fooling itself.  The recent global economic crisis revealed something huge to the whole world. How can anyone, after all this come in to proclaim the PRIVATE SECTOR the new JESUS of the world?

Any well meaning being will readily admit that the private sector works only as well as the public does.  Companies are not going to go out to educate people just because.  Why do we like to deal dishonestly when we are dealing with our own selves here?

paddy_lo:

[b][size=15pt]u are obviously left leaning. . [/size] thats ok. .

just know that. . the reason the private sector is the only saviour(not just the new one),is that it ensures an efficient allocation of capital
whearas govt spending is almost always misplaced,unproductive and innefficient

look at the marets here.  .u have an idea. . u approach the markets. . those that believe in u invest in it in the form of an IPO. . .
if it thrives like GOOGLE. . u become a millionaire. .and make others too millionaires. .

if it fails like. . tons of dot com era companies. . .(eg mama.com). .u loose and move on to the next idea.  .
no corruption,no man know man. .

if N.N.PC was privatized i can wake up tommorrow and buy into it on the nigerian stock exchange. .
i can vote directors out. . with othere shareholders of course and so on. . every nigerian wins. .not just some cabal

i could go on and on.  .look into russia,cuban,north korean,virtually all govt controlled states and why they failed or are failing. . .
govt is usually an impediment to growth and development.  .[/b]

The line in size 15 font there KILLED YOU!!!! Roflmao!!! me, left leaning?? Roflmao!!!

it doesnt kill me. . .if u are not left leaning then its fine. . .but i never heard a right leaning economist advocate for welfare and govt spending before

I will simply say this yet AGAIN. . . . DEVELOPMENT IS NOT  to be confused with GROWTH in an economy !!!

paddy_lo:

it doesnt kill me. . .if u are not left leaning then its fine. . .but i never heard a right leaning economist advocate for welfare and govt spending before

paddy_lo:

[b]economic growth and increase in productivity is the only way to lift people out of poverty. . .

thats how its been done for the past 200yrs. . . .

paddy_lo:

as for development. . .maybe u can define what that means to u. . .

because most serious economists do not go about seperating the two. . .growth and development go hand in hand

Well, maybe you have no clue what the right and independents really advocate. You mean we ought to let government swim in the millions of tax dollars it gets from us while it does absolutely nothing for us with that money? So, if we pay $900 billion a year in taxes, we ought to forget about that money and not call for government to use it to improve our public schools, healthcare and what nots? You mean government should not be called to do nothing at all with resources we continue to pay it to use for our benefit?

Welfare is NOT ALL evil. If you read up on what those in the left say, they are not calling for a complete abolishment because it is hard, especially in these times to escape the many benefits such programs offer. Most calls on welfare are for complete overhaul -- rebuild sort of, to make sure resources are reaching those who need it and not continuing to go to those who don’t.

paddy_lo:

[b]maybe u shouldnt give up so much to the govt in the first place.  .maybe govt should cut the top income tax rate to 15%.  .and let the private sector/citizens(the original owners of the capital by the way),spend the money how they deem fit. . .

paddy_lo:

again most right leaning people and independents will never argue what u argue here.  . .most will tell the govt to cut down its size and give the money back to the citizens in form of tax cuts. . .thats why i called u left leaning in the first place. . no offense intended

paddy_lo:

as for welfare. . .i believe it leads to an overburden of the state. .its a misplacement of resources
because u take that money from corporations that pay taxes and give it to non tax paying citizens
everyone looses.  .even the govt. . 

That is not true. You forgot to mention that BEFORE the private sector came in to grow the US economy, the government had to lay down the basics, and hence the reason why growth has been able to go hand in hand with development for as long as it has.

In the case of Nigeria however, the private sector has long been in the picture but the base development work never really done and so the reason why we continue to experience growth but little to no development in most every sector. Look closely at the figures for goodness sake.  We have been doing this for decades now and the report card has been in for a while now.

I am not the one delegating the responsibilities of government to the private sector here.  Government has it’s place in every society and should focus on doing it’s job, not handing it off to the private sector, UNELECTED by the people to do such.

I am gonna guess you have NEVER really experienced welfare  or any of the government programs first hand to know much of the other side, have you?

Again, GROWTH is NOT, I repeat NOT to be confused with Development. Can you see it even in your own examples??

i have no idea what u mean by development? . . .maybe u should expound

paddy_lo:

i have no idea what u mean by development? . . .maybe u should expound

To sum it up please, DEVELOPMENT is not to be confused with Growth please. Erecting a factory in a village does not mean the village is developed. Even if the people in that village are employed by the factory and the factory experiences huge profits year after year, you still cannot state that essentially means the village has developed. You can say, unemployment is down in that area (and that argument can be used even if the people are paid a measly feel for their services by said factory), but it would be a serious leap to state that the factory has developed the village if the factory has not proactively done so.

Please see @Ladej's post for some incite on that.

why not say in one or 2 paragraphs what u mean?. . .cause if i replied to what he says u might not agree with everything he said
so seriously i dont know what u mean by development,as a seperate entity from growth. . .still without a clue

paddy_lo:

u dont really make much sense here. . .if u expounded on this your development theme,then i will know how to answer u

why not say in one or 2 paragraphs what u mean?. . .cause if i replied to what he says u might not agree with everything he said
so seriously i dont know what u mean by development,as a seperate entity from growth. . .still without a clue

Please read as I believe it is straight forward, just as my most recent post was.

Kobojunkie:

FInd the post here https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-366272.96.html

Please read as I believe it is straight forward, just as my most recent post was.

paddy_lo:

i just read what the ladejs dude posted. . .and it makes no sense whatsoever. .lol

he makes random statements with nothing to back it up. . .

again u leave this discussion at a dead end if u are unable to provide a concrete example of what u mean. . .

so i can rebut it line by line . . .

mr kobojunkie how far my broda, till a lot of the contributors to this forum get the difference between growth and development, im afraid you're barking on the wrong trees . first they need to understand that a difference exists between growth and development, just like a difference exists between wealth and riches. though babangida may be stinkingly rich and has riches, that doesnt make him wealthy, because wealth is a system of EMPOWERMENT while any fortunate baggar can be rich. contributors abeg align this analogy to the topic and understand we are indeed growing not developing. also even though there is credit crunch that doesnt mean british gas or [insert any other westernised power authority] will take light.

you can develop without growing, and you can grow without developing. A rubbish heap grows; it doesn’t develop.

Economic development is a normative concept i.e. it applies in the context of people's sense of morality (right and wrong, good and bad). The definition of economic development given by Michael Todaro is an increase in living standards, improvement in self-esteem needs and freedom from oppression as well as a greater choice.The most accurate method of measuring development is the Human Development Index which takes into account the l[b]iteracy rates[/b] & life expectancy which affect productivity and could lead to Economic Growth. It also leads to the creation of more opportunities in the sectors of education, healthcare, employment and the conservation of the environment.It implies an increase in the per capita income of every citizen.

to buttress my point,

Development alleviates people from low standards of living into proper employment with suitable shelter.

Economic Growth does not take into account the depletion of natural resources which might lead to pollution, congestion & disease.[gas flaring in niger delta for example and total degradation of its environs]

Developmen[/b]t however is concerned with [b]sustainability which means meeting the needs of the present without compromising future needs.

one last one,

development- Brings both qualitative and quantitative changes in the economy [aged population ,low infant mortality rate]
growth- Brings quantitative changes in the economy[i.e. huge foreign reserves of 30 billion dollars but still widespread suffering]

i do hope this brought more clarity to the subject matter.

paddy_lo:

so in essence u believe govt should legislate morality?

[b]no i dont think morality should be legalised. it comes free of charge when you have a developed country. development is the reason why a head of department wont put all his/her workers salary in a fixed deposit to accrue interest, whilst the employees are crying out for their paychecks, as it is done in some areas in nigeria.

for literacy rates.  .that again deals with relevant laws,which i have already said is what govt is there for. . that means. . making and enforcing laws
like what yr to what someone must be in school and so on. . .

basic literacy is being able to read and write, also being able to discern right from wrong, i.e. it is right to pee in your house, wrong to pee on the road[ you dont need to go to Harvard to know that.

however the ability to enforce such is soley dependent on the resources available.  .which is soley dependent on how much growth and tax revenue is available
eg schools are funded here by property taxes. . .if the property value falls. . taxes collected falls and the schools suffer
again growth is paramount

here you impress me with your thought process. taxation is a key tool for growth, and if sustained over a long period can aid development. bravo

same for life expectancy and the rest in the HDI
[/b]
the only way to improve standard of living is through increase in productivity and not any centrally planned economic theory

[b]this is incorrect. the UK dont produce anything anymore, just services like banking. manufacturing is at an all time low, unless the productivity you refer to is service based, there are numerous ways to improve standard of living. a good police force will aid that

as for depletion of natural resources.  .again govt is there to make laws. . .there is usually a ying-yang pull on how far govt allows corporations to go on this
dont see what that has to do with anything

why do you think global warming and climate change is a biggie??


as for sustainability u quote. . .i believe its sustainable growth that is used nowadays. .again nothing to see here

no comment here

your final quote on the foriegn reserves is most revealling
how do u think u will fund the so called decrease in widespread suffereing(as u put it ),or decrease in infant mortality and so on
if there is no growth in the economy? . . .where do u get the money from.  .pluck it from trees?
the only way u have those $30billion in reserves u are eyeing is through economic growth
after that govt can make any laws it deems fit. . like minimum wage laws or workers rights laws and so on

you seem a bit confused. i never said there wasnt growth, there clearly is growth in nigeria, not development though. that time will come

its all well and good. . .but dont confuse this as a chicken and egg problem. .
because u need to grow your economy and grow it fast and rapidly before any other sort of social programs u think of can come in
again if nigeria can grow at 12-15% per annum. . with population growth steady at 3%,after 10 yrs poverty would have been reduced by 80% or thereabouts
get any macro-economic model and plug it in. . . .

seems u confuse govt social programmes with your so-called development. . .[/b]

im not confused, my thought process is as smooth as halle berry's face

development is the reason [/b]why a head of department wont put all his/her workers salary in a fixed deposit to accrue interest, whilst the employees are crying out for their paychecks, as it is done in some areas in nigeria.

basic literacy is being able to read and write, also being able to discern right from wrong, i.e. it is right to pee in your house, wrong to pee on the road[ you dont need to go to Harvard to know that

this is incorrect. the UK dont produce anything anymore, just services like banking. manufacturing is at an all time low, unless the productivity you refer to is service based, there are numerous ways to improve standard of living. a good police force will aid that

why do you think global warming and[b] climate change is a biggie?[/b]

you seem a bit confused. i never said there wasnt growth, there clearly is growth in nigeria, not development though. that time will come

im not confused, my thought process is as smooth as halle berry's face

halle berry eh. . . . .am more of a genievive. . .or kelly rowland type of guy. .but its all good. .cheers

paddy_lo:

no not some pie in the sky term called development,but by enforcement of laws already on the books. . .
hope u know there is corruption everywhere in the states also. . .mayors,house of rep members and so on are busted daily. . .
the difference here is that there is enuff manpower and resources available to those who are charged with enforcing laws
again dont see what literacy has to do with this. . .if u pass a law and have the resource to enforce it. .then people wont pee on the street simple
or dont u know ppl are routinely arrested for peeing on the street here?. .again enforce laws that are passedproductivity growth does not only occur in manufacturing. . .productivity is the ability to do more with less. . .it can come in services sector or any other sector
again u.s productivity growth was the highest in some 5yrs this past 3rd qtr. . .it has helped to increase the wealth of the average u.s employee,also with increased productivity comes increase in company profits. . .which means an increase in the wealth effect in forms of dividends or capital gainsits not a biggie to most third world economies and china. . .frankly its also not a biggie to half the U.S in the form of republicans and some independents

my point is that nigeria needs to grow faster than it is. . .and govt has to do less not more as u clearly propose

halle berry eh. . . . .am more of a genievive. . .or kelly rowland type of guy. .but its all good. .cheers

Kobojunkie:

Then, I have to say that seems one of the major issues with the Nigeria psyche. Why do we ASSUME that these inept individuals are CLUELESS? They travel abroad more than most Nigerians could ever dream of doing. They shop in developed countries, educate their ward in some of the most expensive schools out there. They ensure they do all they can to get as much as possible for themselves, and go as far as to arrange their kids be married off to individuals who they believe would ensure they are taken care of. Yet we somehow think they are the clueless one here?

Are you saying that CLUELESS individuals are the ones who do all that is possible to get as much as they can for THEMSELVES first ?

Kobojunkie:

No it is NOT! Nothing in Democracy states that the electorates HAVE TO trust their elected leaders. Democracy, by giving power to the people essentially gives the people the express right to call for removal of electorates NOT doing the job for which they were hired for.

[b]Siphoning of public funds DOES NOT SHOW that they have no clue what they are supposed to do when in Power. [/b]You are trying to argue apples and nails here. It is possible to know the right thing to do but still CHOOSE to do wrong.

No. It does not show that. There are no indications that these men are blind in anyway. They do recognize the vast opportunities available to them and take advantage of it in the way they know to. Many of these individuals are business men, only they are mostly involved in businesses to make them QUICK money, just as many non-political Nigerians seem to be, as well.  It is obviously easier to make a million through corrupt means than to make the same amount by doing businesses. So why would you believe a person who chooses to get fast cash is blind and the one who chooses instead to invest in building a business, which would probably go burst before he even makes a penny, is not?

agitator:

That's how young graduates think. How leaders are not educated enough so they don't know how to develop this country. The same leaders will build state of the art modern personal buildings, the former VP has an American standard private university (he was still clueless), Odili built a world class private hospital in SA (still clueless).

Please help me to enlighten these our people.