The choice of freewill.

tintingz:
Lol, An almighty God of the whole universe was concern about the charges laid by Satan yet he destroyed homosexuals in Sodom and Gomorrah.

Wow, what a logic.

Who dare question God on what he feels like to doing?

Are you even sure you understand my argument? How does GOD's setting out to prove to the whole of creation, at the first time that rebellion surfaced, His just character and the fact that rebellion should not exist, contradict his action in destroying the wicked Sodom and Gomorrah?

Fine guys,to all the Christians in this thread I have a question for you,and if you are confident in your answer you would pick either YES or NO

I assume that "Satan" is responsible for all the evil things happening in the world,now if Yahweh was to ask you if you want him to destroy the devil instantly which would of course bring an end to all human misery,assuming he would act based on your reply,what answer would you give him?

YES(destroy the devil instantly)
Or
NO(spare him)

Remember,no explanations if you must address the question all I need is for you to just answer Yes or No

darkchild64:
Fine guys,to all the Christians in this thread I have a question for you,and if you are confident in your answer you would pick either YES or NO

I assume that "Satan" is responsible for all the evil things happening in the world,now if Yahweh was to ask you if you want him to destroy the devil instantly which would of course bring an end to all human misery,assuming he would act based on your reply,what answer would you give him?

YES(destroy the devil instantly)
Or
NO(spare him)

Remember,no explanations if you must address the question all I need is for you to just answer Yes or No

LoL excellent question. But I bet you none of them will answer without attempting to explain why God would forego the most obvious logical choice ie YES.

dalaman:


You gave me verses that have nothing to do with what you are saying. It is your own interpretation that says what ever it is you want it to say. The verses have nothing to do with the universe being flooded. I can bring a YEC like Oladegbuu or the other one on this thread and you'll see that they disagree with you.

I quit apologetics because I believed that anyone who asks some of the questions that atheists ask is not someone who wants any answers. The answers are too obvious to explain. I mean, how do you describe daylight to a blind man? He needs eyes to "get" it. Likewise, when you essentially reject reason, no one can explain anything to you.

But it is entirely possible that there are believers gifted to explain things to you that actually get through that thick wall of insanity that atheists typically erect to deal with the reality of God.

I can't help you, dalaman. I don't know how to explain obvious things. And all my efforts so far only prove that. It should also be obvious that I don't really want to since my answers were initially directed toward fellow believers, not to meddlesome atheists who really just can't leave well enough alone when believers are trying to have a conversation.

I note and accept your rejection of my answers. You were never under any obligation to accept them. If they are lies that I'm deluding myself with, then I'm the one who's the worse for it, not you. What is important is that you know how I read the Bible that you reject.

dalaman:
Why won't you? When the foundation of your belief is lies, you'll have to keep telling lies to defend your belief. . .

And that sounds like something you can save me from? You just described insanity. Why are you bothered with an insane man? I consider the atheistic worldview an insane one. That is why you will rarely find me trying to argue with any of you when you start your debates. I don't know how to correct willful insanity. So why are you bothering with me?

Princewell2012:


Was Adam made a perfect being?

He was created perfect but with a free will.

LordReed:


More like more and more elaborate tales to explain the plot holes. God can't see evil but somehow Satan can freely go to heaven, you'll get a very fine tale of how God gave Satan everlasting bus pass to enter heaven that was never revoked. LMFAO!

Actually, no. Satan actually does not particularly enjoy going to Heaven but God can override his will in that matter. God commands an assembly of his angels at specific intervals and Satan cannot avoid answering the summons. But he would prefer to if he could. The Presence of God is truly unpleasant for evil.

darkchild64:
Fine guys,to all the Christians in this thread I have a question for you,and if you are confident in your answer you would pick either YES or NO

I assume that "Satan" is responsible for all the evil things happening in the world,now if Yahweh was to ask you if you want him to destroy the devil instantly which would of course bring an end to all human misery,assuming he would act based on your reply,what answer would you give him?

YES(destroy the devil instantly)
Or
NO(spare him)

Remember,no explanations if you must address the question all I need is for you to just answer Yes or No

Sorry, I don't typically care for rules like that.

What "Thy Kingdom come and Thy Will be done on earth as it is in Heaven" means is that God should end the tyranny of Satan over the Earth. It was the prayer the Lord Jesus, God Himself Who also became Man to die for our sins, taught us to pray.

Ihedinobi3:


Actually, no. Satan actually does not particularly enjoy going to Heaven but God can override his will in that matter. God commands an assembly of his angels at specific intervals and Satan cannot avoid answering the summons. But he would prefer to if he could. The Presence of God is truly unpleasant for evil.

LoL! Right on cue and with the everlasting bus pass no less! LMFAO! You are so damn predictable.

LordReed:


LoL! Right on cue and with the everlasting bus pass no less! LMFAO! You are so damn predictable.

Wow! You read that and it said "everlasting bus pass" to you?! Wow!!! How did you do that?

Ihedinobi3:


Sorry, I don't typically care for rules like that.

What "Thy Kingdom come and Thy Will be done on earth as it is in Heaven" means is that God should end the tyranny of Satan over the Earth. It was the prayer the Lord Jesus, God Himself Who also became Man to die for our sins, taught us to pray.

If you aree not going to pick YES or NO,then don't bother answering the question,no one is forcing u to answer it if u must answer it then do it the way I demanded,why is it so difficult for you christians,if u won't answer YES or NO then bye,I don't even care about ur reply

Ihedinobi3:


Wow! You read that and it said "everlasting bus pass" to you?! Wow!!! How did you do that?

Yes. This

Ihedinobi3:

Satan cannot avoid answering the summons.

Is the everlasting bus pass. I correctly intuited that a form of that story will be the excuse and you turn up right on cue to deliver the story, even though it makes even less sense than the story you are trying to explain.

darkchild64:

If you aree not going to pick YES or NO,then don't bother answering the question,no one is forcing u to answer it if u must answer it then do it the way I demanded,why is it so difficult for you christians,if u won't answer YES or NO then bye,I don't even care about ur reply

You're right. I didn't have to answer your question any more than you needed to comment on a thread where a Christian was asking a biblical question.

What you did amounts to asking a loaded question. Then you set up answers that are designed to trap those who answer you. It's as annoying a gimmick as my answer was to you.

We want Satan gone and so does God Himself. But God does things on a timetable that He set Himself. He doesn't have to do anything the way you want Him to or think that He should. So, while the answer is "Yes", it is a Yes with a qualification. We say "Yes, if 'now' is when God is good and ready to dispose of him. "

LordReed:


Yes. This
Is the everlasting bus pass. I correctly intuited that a form of that story will be the excuse and you turn up right on cue to deliver the story, even though it makes even less sense than the story you are trying to explain.

A pass essentially allows him to be there because he wants to be. He doesn't. Earth is where Satan prefers to be, away from God's Presence. That is why I wonder at how you read that.

Besides, he will soon lose all rights to access Heaven. When he does, that will mean that his "execution" has become an imminent affair. And that is what will annoy him, not, as far as I know, being excluded from Heaven. He HAS TO go to Heaven when God summons. Otherwise, he wouldn't go.

DoctorAlien:


Are you even sure you understand my argument? How does GOD's setting out to prove to the whole of creation, at the first time that rebellion surfaced, His just character and the fact that rebellion should not exist, contradict his action in destroying the wicked Sodom and Gomorrah?

The point is, is God also following a law or bound to something?

Besides God already knew all what will happen, how does this make any sense, God knows the beginning and end, he's perfect, so what exactly does God want to prove?

God has the power to stop evil, rebellion from happening in the beginning but for whatever meaningless reason he let it happen and then angry at Satan and humans for what he's responsible of, does this even make any sense to you?

tintingz:
The point is, is God also following a law or bound to something?

GOD is the author of every law by which creation is governed. He is the highest authority. No authority is higher than Him.

Besides God already knew all what will happen, how does this make any sense, God knows the beginning and end, he's perfect, so what exactly does God want to prove?

God has the power to stop evil, rebellion from happening in the beginning but for whatever meaningless reason he let it happen and then angry at Satan and humans for what he's responsible of, does this even make any sense to you?

Stop lashing out and calm down and read my submissions slowly.

I strongly believe the time is fast approaching when people will not take god-knows-best as an answer to their questions.

Anyways, Satan is a necessary evil. For God to stay alive, Satan must be kept save and healthy; they share the same breath but different functions. The death of one makes the other lifeless.... Think

Before you attack this comment, think about all polarities in life and see if one can exist without the other.

Note
This is coming from an unbeliever, not a theist, not an atheist. None of them can prove their stand; they are both believers --- one believes in the existence of god while the other believes in non-existence of god.

Ihedinobi3:


You're right. I didn't have to answer your question any more than you needed to comment on a thread where a Christian was asking a biblical question.

What you did amounts to asking a loaded question. Then you set up answers that are designed to trap those who answer you. It's as annoying a gimmick as my answer was to you.

We want Satan gone and so does God Himself. But God does things on a timetable that He set Himself. He doesn't have to do anything the way you want Him to or think that He should. So, while the answer is "Yes", it is a Yes with a qualification. We say "Yes, if 'now' is when God is good and ready to dispose of him. "

"Yes",that is your answer,I would ignore the rest of the things you said cos I didn't ask for those
Now its your wish that "Satan" be destroyed instantly,which is akin to saying that if you had the wherewithal or if you were in Yahweh's position you would destroy the devil.
There lies my point, even though you are a fundamentalist Christian who believes that the bible is infallible and Yahweh is always right,you still feel it would be best if Satan is destroyed instantly so all the pains and misery would end,of course this is the "logical" position, but then is against Yahweh's plan because obviously evil is still present,hence the devil is supposedly present
So this is the summary of what I make of your reply(Yes)

1) Your wish is that the devil be destroyed instantly
2)Giving that the devil is not yet destroyed, its is obvious that it is not Yahweh's plan for him go be destroyed instantly (all things being equal ; Yahweh's plans always comes to pass,so everything happens as Yahweh has planned)
3)Your wish to have the devil destroyed instantly is AGAINST Yahweh's plan

When a believer's wish is against Yahweh's plan,who becomes correct, the believer or Yahweh ?

Ihedinobi3:


A pass essentially allows him to be there because he wants to be. He doesn't. Earth is where Satan prefers to be, away from God's Presence. That is why I wonder at how you read that.

Besides, he will soon lose all rights to access Heaven. When he does, that will mean that his "execution" has become an imminent affair. And that is what will annoy him, not, as far as I know, being excluded from Heaven. He HAS TO go to Heaven when God summons. Otherwise, he wouldn't go.

You just bring up elaborate conjectures that are not in the text. This is what is written:

Job 1
6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them.

7 And the Lord said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

There's not a single hint of a summons but you must inject your own elaborate story to explain this travesty of a fairy tale. It's not a surprise, it was expected. Bullshit requires more bullshit to keep it going.

walegees:
I strongly believe the time is fast approaching when people will not take god-knows-best as an answer to their questions.

Anyways, Satan is a necessary evil. For God to stay alive, Satan must be kept save and healthy; they share the same breath but different functions. The death of one makes the other lifeless.... Think

Before you attack this comment, think about all polarities in life and see if one can exist without the other.

Note
This is coming from an unbeliever, not a theist, not an atheist. None of them can prove their stand; they are both believers --- one believes in the existence of god while the other believes in non-existence of god.

LoL that is because the devil and God are the same living and breathing humans who perpetuate the myths of supernatural beings.

Saying atheist believes in the non existence of God is a false representation of what the atheist position is.

darkchild64:

"Yes",that is your answer,I would ignore the rest of the things you said cos I didn't ask for those
Now its your wish that "Satan" be destroyed instantly,which is akin to saying that if you had the wherewithal or if you were in Yahweh's position you would destroy the devil.
There lies my point, even though you are a fundamentalist Christian who believes that the bible is infallible and Yahweh is always right,you still feel it would be best if Satan is destroyed instantly so all the pains and misery would end,of course this is the "logical" position, but then is against Yahweh's plan because obviously evil is still present,hence the devil is supposedly present
So this is the summary of what I make of your reply(Yes)

1) Your wish is that the devil be destroyed instantly
2)Giving that the devil is not yet destroyed, its is obvious that it is not Yahweh's plan for him go be destroyed instantly (all things being equal ; Yahweh's plans always comes to pass,so everything happens as Yahweh has planned)
3)Your wish to have the devil destroyed instantly is AGAINST Yahweh's plan

When a believer's wish is against Yahweh's plan,who becomes correct, the believer or Yahweh ?

LOL. What did I say about a loaded question?

Such nonsense.

YOU asked this:

"if Yahweh was to ask you if you want him to destroy the devil instantly which would of course bring an end to all human misery,assuming he would act based on your reply,what answer would you give him?"

And now you think I feel it would be best if Satan is destroyed instantly. It's as if being an atheist screws with your ability to actually accurately report whatever you're told and even what you yourself say.

How did I say the above?

I said that if God asked whether I want Him to destroy Satan right now, I would say, yes, if His Time to do so had come.

That means that I would only want Him to destroy Satan now if He decides that now is the right time.

But that answer is not good for you. Because of your rather inane setup.

Ihedinobi3:


LOL. What did I say about a loaded question?

Such nonsense.

YOU asked this:

"if Yahweh was to ask you if you want him to destroy the devil instantly which would of course bring an end to all human misery,assuming he would act based on your reply,what answer would you give him?"

And now you think I feel it would be best if Satan is destroyed instantly. It's as if being an atheist screws with your ability to actually accurately report whatever you're told and even what you yourself say.

How did I say the above?

I said that if God asked whether I want Him to destroy Satan right now, I would say, yes, if His Time to do so had come.

That means that I would only want Him to destroy Satan now if He decides that now is the right time.

But that answer is not good for you. Because of your rather inane setup.

This is the reason I demanded for a simple answer,I asked you a simple question demanding a YES or NO,pointing out what each answer menat,you chose to make it complicated by adding other things to it
The question I asked was to ascertain your wish,it is not Yahweh seeking advice from you,it is you making a wish
DO YOU WANT TO SEE THE DEVIL DESTROYED ?

That is the question,stopped attaching Yahweh to it,give us your honest reply if you are confident enough,what I want to know is what you wish not what Yahweh wishes

Dude I'm really into this discussion with you now,and I would wish that you stopped assuming rubbish tactics whatever,just give me ur honest reply to the question,and make it simple
Read my first post and give me only one of the two answers any thing other than that it is as good as I'm done with this conversation
Is your answer YES or NO

LordReed:


You just bring up elaborate conjectures that are not in the text. This is what is written:

Job 1
6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them.

7 And the Lord said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

There's not a single hint of a summons but you must inject your own elaborate story to explain this travesty of a fairy tale. It's not a surprise, it was expected. Bullshit requires more bullshit to keep it going.

I doff my hat. You actually did something. This is what I will always respect and appreciate in anyone I discuss with.

There are actually two gems in that passage that you can take:

1. The sons of God came to present themselves to God. Why would they do that and at the same time?

2. Satan came also among them. Why would he if he was God's enemy looking to take over His Creation?

These questions are gems because they open other parts of the Bible to the diligent student.

The answers are in God's dealings with Israel.

God dealt with Israel as with a microcosm of His Human Family which is really an extension of His Eternal Family of Men and Angels. That is, what God did with Israel is a shadow or a sort of viewing into what He does with His Family. This is in Heb 10:1. The Law was a shadow of what was to come in Christ. In Christ, we have become family with God just like the Angels are. So, in the Law, you will find a replica of what goes on in Heaven.

Here is what the Law says:

Deuteronomy 16:16
[16]"Three times in a year all your males shall appear before the Lord your God in the place which He chooses, at the Feast of Unleavened Bread and at the Feast of Weeks and at the Feast of Booths, and they shall not appear before the Lord empty-handed.

Compare that to:

Revelation 21:24,26
[24]The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it.
[26]and they will bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it;

In other words, this is something "traditional" to God, that His Family should present itself to Him in their full number at specified intervals.

That explains why not only do all the angels assemble before God but it is made clear that even Satan came. He had to come because God commanded his presence.

And he still goes even now whenever the summons goes out. That will only end in the middle of the Tribulation when he is finally and summarily thrown out of Heaven and all his rights as a member of the Family of God are revoked.

You may not like it, but it does add up.

tintingz:
I bet, you lack understanding of Poseidon story.

Comment from an atheist is understandable

Ihedinobi3:


I doff my hat. You actually did something. This is what I will always respect and appreciate in anyone I discuss with.

There are actually two gems in that passage that you can take:

1. The sons of God came to present themselves to God. Why would they do that and at the same time?

2. Satan came also among them. Why would he if he was God's enemy looking to take over His Creation?

These questions are gems because they open other parts of the Bible to the diligent student.

The answers are in God's dealings with Israel.

God dealt with Israel as with a microcosm of His Human Family which is really an extension of His Eternal Family of Men and Angels. That is, what God did with Israel is a shadow or a sort of viewing into what He does with His Family. This is in Heb 10:1. The Law was a shadow of what was to come in Christ. In Christ, we have become family with God just like the Angels are. So, in the Law, you will find a replica of what goes on in Heaven.

Here is what the Law says:

Deuteronomy 16:16
[16]"Three times in a year all your males shall appear before the Lord your God in the place which He chooses, at the Feast of Unleavened Bread and at the Feast of Weeks and at the Feast of Booths, and they shall not appear before the Lord empty-handed.

Compare that to:

Revelation 21:24,26
[24]The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it.
[26]and they will bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it;

In other words, this is something "traditional" to God, that His Family should present itself to Him in their full number at specified intervals.

That explains why not only do all the angels assemble before God but it is made clear that even Satan came. He had to come because God commanded his presence.

And he still goes even now whenever the summons goes out. That will only end in the middle of the Tribulation when he is finally and summarily thrown out of Heaven and all his rights as a member of the Family of God are revoked.

You may not like it, but it does add up.

LoL, it adds up to bullshit. You just produced and even more elaborate explanation for why the originator of evil has an everlasting bus pass to the one who you say cannot abide evil. And the foolish story says God has a chat with devil on what to do to an innocent man. The dumbness is outstanding on every level and angle you look at it.

I am glad I no longer have to believe or defend such bullshit.

LordReed:


LoL, it adds up to bullshit. You just produced and even more elaborate explanation for why the originator of evil has an everlasting bus pass to the one who you say cannot abide evil. And the foolish story says God has a chat with devil on what to do to an innocent man. The dumbness is outstanding on every level and angle you look at it.

I am glad I no longer have to believe or defend such bullshit.

I do get that you don't believe the Bible, that you think it is "bullshit". I respect that that is your position. I wish it would change but that is up to you and it is your own gain or loss, not mine. But none of that is really the point in our discussion.

My explanation is elaborate, as you say, but that is what Bible teaching is about. It is an opening up of the Bible to those who don't know what it means. And that was what I did here for a fellow Bible believer and what I do with biblical questions.

The question is whether there is any incoherence or inconsistency in what is said? Can you find any at all?

Ihedinobi3:


I do get that you don't believe the Bible, that you think it is "bullshit". I respect that that is your position. I wish it would change but that is up to you and it is your own gain or loss, not mine. But none of that is really the point in our discussion.

My explanation is elaborate, as you say, but that is what Bible teaching is about. It is an opening up of the Bible to those who don't know what it means. And that was what I did here for a fellow Bible believer and what I do with biblical questions.

The question is whether there is any incoherence or inconsistency in what is said? Can you find any at all?

That is exactly what I am pointing out to you. It is incoherent and inconsistent within the very things you assert. God is good but decides that the 10 of Job's children should be killed and at least another 150 people should die all by the hand of his enemy because of a stupid bet. There's nothing in this stupid tale that distinguishes it from those of Zeus and his merry band of gods, all of them doing foolish human things. Simply because of course the writers, unsophisticated as they were, could not think of any way a truly transcendent being would behave. So they intersperse claims of magic and miracles with the very human like behaviours of this supposed god and devil. Its like reading the fantasies of a JS1 student, coherent within his limited experience, a very limited experience indeed and then magic for any hard problems he couldn't think himself out of.

DoctorAlien:
GOD is the author of every law by which creation is governed. He is the highest authority. No authority is higher than Him.

Stop lashing out and calm down and read my submissions slowly.

If God is every law and the highest authority why then he's worried about Satan's charges or anyone's charges?

He's kind of bound to a law.

paxonel:
A 13 years old girl asked this question in church during bible study yesterday and the teacher could not give a satisfactory reason.
He told her that God is preserving satan for judgment day but the little girl reminded him that all the sorrows in this world would have been avoided only if satan who was the cause, and who is still causing more sorrows was killed from the beginning, then there will be no need for judgement.
The preacher could not say anything and when the girl wanted to ask another question, the teacher practically told her off and end the class, saying he is not in the mood of answering questions any longer .

Can anyone help us answer the question?

What Satan did was a challenge to Gods right to rule. He questioned Gods universal sovereignty. Why because the drama that happened between God and Satan was seen by all angels in heaven. He was like stating that God is a bad ruler, who hides the fact from His creatures. That in fact, eaten the fruit would not cause death, but would rather produce some enlightenment that would make man be like God. In other words, Satan was saying that man would be better of if they be the one deciding what is morally right and wrong themselves. God shouldn't be the one doing such for them.

God allowed Satan to continue alive so as to show both humans and some angels above whose rukership is better, whether God or Satan's.

DoctorAlien:
I've answered this question before. It was because destroying Satan immediately was not the best option. GOD is very wise. Satan had raised specific charges against GOD, and he accused GOD before the inhabitants of Heaven with these charges. His rebellion eventually turned into a full-blown war in Heaven. But had GOD destroyed Satan immediately despite the havoc he caused, that very act would have lent credence to the charges which Satan brought against GOD. So GOD cast Satan out of heaven, but spared him and allowed Satan to develop his intents to the fullest, so that intelligent beings can judge for themselves that he deserves to be destroyed finally. I can safely say that not voice of dissent will rise from the earth against the judgment which GOD will mete on sin and sinners, including Satan.

True, the earth is in misery today because of Satan's deceit, but surely the enormous doubt of GOD's just character that could have dominated the minds of created beings would have presented a far worse situation.

Your comment seem to suggest that Satan had been cast down immediately he turned Adam and Eve to sin?

JMAN05:


What Satan did was a challenge to Gods right to rule. He questioned Gods universal sovereignty. Why because the drama that happened between God and Satan was seen by all angels in heaven. He was like stating that God is a bad ruler, who hides the fact from His creatures. That in fact, eaten the fruit would not cause death, but would rather produce some enlightenment that would make man be like God. In other words, Satan was saying that man would be better of if they be the one deciding what is morally right and wrong themselves. God shouldn't be the one doing such for them.

God allowed Satan to continue alive so as to show both humans and some angels above whose rukership is better, whether God or Satan's.

To gain what exactly?

If God allowed Satan to exist then who's responsible for evil that exist, God or Satan?

tintingz:
To gain what exactly?

If God allowed Satan to exist then who's responsible for evil that exist, God or Satan?

Sorry, but I don't see the logic of these questions.