Biodun556:

They are identified in Lagos history. Lagos historians still mention their origins

Doesn't matter.
There is no large ethnicity in the world today that doesn't have a few people from other places. Those people are for all intents and purposes 100% Yoruba today. Only people pursuing a fruitless agenda will be stressing a single ancestor or two who came from a non Yoruba place over 400 years ago over their dozens of Yoruba ancestors in this 2024.

As of today, there are no Binis or Nupes in Lagos because the few Benins or Nupes who came to the Lagos area haave already long assimilated into the larger Yoruba environment, becoming practically Yoruba themselves. They have fought wars and bled for Yoruba interests. Nobody sees them as anything but Yoruba except for mischievious 5th columnists.
It makes no single sense to still be calling someone with a single Benin or Nupe ancestor from the 1500s or 1600s a Benin person today, especially not when said persons have several dozens of Yoruba ancestors in their lineage/blood.

If we are to go by the same standard, then their so called Benin ancestor might actually be Yoruba, since so many of them actually have their roots in Ife dating to the period of intense Yoruba influence east of the Ose (ovia) river.

JAWBONE:


Who is the we? Speak for yourself. How can it be that you speak a people's language, bear their names, [b]share their kingship systems [/b]and deities, marriage, dressing and 99% of their customs and traditions yet you want to make the claim that you have nothing to do with them.

The joke is on you.

Care to elaborate?
Which kingship system is that?

RedboneSmith:


If you consider that Efik, Ibibio and Annang are close enough that many will consider them to be a dialect continuum, or that Urhobo and Isoko of the Southern Edoid branch also share similar closeness and are also on a continuum, or that the Itsekiri is quite simply the Southeastern extention of Yoruba, and is still mutually intelligible with many Yoruba dialects of Ondo State.... If you consider all these, then you'll appreciate that the Igbo/Igboid tribes are not the only ones who don't necessarily follow that template.

Too many examples.

Nupe (Niger) / Bassa Nge, Kakanda (Kogi) / Kupa (Kogi, Niger) / Koro (FCT)
Idoma (Benue) / Alago (Nassarawa) / Agatu (Nassarawa, Benue) / Yala (Cross River) / Igede (Benue)
Ebira (Kogi Central) / Igbira (Kogi, Kogi East, Nassarawa) / Etuno (Edo)
Atyap (Kaduna, Plateau) / Bajju (Kaduna) / Agworok (Kaduna)

The Ijoid groups like the Kalabari, Okrika, Izon, are somewhere in-between both positions and have sucessfully been able to consolidate. Infact, their effort at consolidation has been so successful that they have been able to bring in so many non Ijaw groups into their union.

On the other end, the Ogoni subgroups of Tai, Eleme and Gokana seem to be doing the opposite. Previously consolidated but beginning to move or drift apart over time due to whatever reasons.

pics?

No new language from Southern Nigeria.
Continue losing your languages to pidgin o, you hear?

In Google's Translation services biggest expansion ever, they have now added 110 new languages from around the world, bringing the total number of languages they offer translation services in to 243 different tongues from around the globe, coming close to doubling the number of languages it handles since their last time of expansion back in 2022 when it added 24 new languages.

Of these new languages added, three more Nigerian languages make the list (Yoruba, Hausa and Igbo had since been added since 2014). These new Nigerian languages are:
Tiv
Kanuri
Fulani (Fulfulde)

https://www.theverge.com/2024/6/27/24186223/google-translate-110-new-languages

rexbuton:


Scholes you are aware that the fricatives gh, kh, gw, are standard bini consonants?
I was brought to this thread, because I was listening to random Nigerian songs, and a song came up which sounded like garbled Edo music, and I later found out it was an ilaje song. Looking at their cultural attire as in the video above, it is safe to assume that their origin is closer to Benin than Ife

I said their music shares a similar musical cadence with the Binis, I never said their origin was Benin or that they were Bini.

DMerciful:
If they collected Ilorin, they'd eventually get to the lagoon

What happened that led to the emergence of a Fulani Emir in Ilorin was an internal coup, not a pitched battle.
And like I said earlier, the Yorubas stopped the Jihadists advance in the west when they defeated the Fulanis at the battle of Osogbo.
The Yorubas were on the cusp of marching on Ilorin itself when the british arrived and brought back the Emir who had fled the city after several years of living in fear and whose powers had been practically dismantled by the powerful Baloguns. The British did this in order to facilitate indirect rule through a single political figurehead (The Emir AKA Oba Ilorin)

DMerciful:
Before the British came, the Fulani jihad was conquering the area now called Nigeria. They started from Sokoto and coming down South.
Their intention is to get to the sea. However, the British stopped the at the Kwara , kogi, Benue border.

That line is called the Kabba line and upward of that line is referred to as North and below that line as South.

The North formed the Northern Protectorate under Britain and the South formed the Southern Protectorate under Britain. These were separate countries before the 1914 amalgamation, a terrible mistake!

It was the Yorubas of Ibadan that stopped the Jihad on the western flank, not the British.

garfield1:


They dominate gombe.most governors in NW are fulanis

Maybe you misunderstood the question I asked.
Fuanis do not dominate Taraba state. They are minorities there. Even in Jalingo. Their highest concentrations are in the Gashaka, Lau, Gassol and Karim Lamido, which are all already multiethnic areas.
Again which states do Fulanis dominate where they do not produce governor?

garfield1:


It seems fulanis dominate Taraba

How do Fulanis dominate Taraba? looool
There is no state Fulanis dominante where they do not consistently emerge as the state governors. Give one example if it exists.

FiftyFifty:


Asking this glaringly unintelligent question tells everything about you IQ level.

Aleiro
Dukku
Funakaye
Fune
Jajere
Yusufari
Yunusari
Mayo Belwa
Karim Lamido
Jalingo
Jama'are
Fufore
Girei
Bali
Gassol
Sardauna
Akko
Toro
Darazo
Misau
Tambuwal
Issa
Ibbi
Kalgo
Bodinga
Goronyo
Shagari
Wamakko
Bagudu
Yauri
Are some of the local govt' areas that quickly came to my mind. They're spread across the North. I'm also Fulani. So?

Yauri, Darazo, Ibbi etc are not Fulani words.
Also, that some of those local governments were named after Fulani people or words from Fulfulde does not necessarily mean that the fulanis are the majority demographic in them. Case in point is Sardauna which is dominated by the Mambilla with the Fulanis there being a minority.

Virtually all the places you have listed are highly multi ethnic and diverse.

Gbagyi is Kaduna and Zamfara, not Kebbi.

tollyboy5:

You're the one saying rubbish . The name Yoruba is a political name given to southwest people.

Political name given to SouthWest people kill you.
When did 'Southwest people' start being a real thing? Olodo.

tollyboy5:
The post above me. so I those ondo tribe mention have bini ancestory. I just Google it and found out lol.
No wonder ekiti and ondo are quite different from regular Yoruba.

Ijebu on another hand stand alone as a separate migration, pls note that some itshekiri are from ijebu also.
Most act attributed to Yorubas in Lagos are characters of typical ijebu culture that has become general Yoruba culture.

The Oyo/osun Seth of Yoruba mixing with ijebu and bini expansionist form the present dominance of the Yoruba dialect and give the dialect different accent.

Today Yoruba speaking community span through Kwara to kogi down to Benin/Togo then to bini.
While Yoruba core territory remain southwest only. So we're are connected one way or the other lol.

It's foolishness to start fighting each other when were closely connected.
But it seems thats what the world is all about War, zero peace, trouble etc

Just talking rubbish which confidence.
Bini itself na almost 50% Yoruba ancestrally.

Slytiger:

That's one of the reason why people say the SE are the biggest benefactor of one Nigeria...

Beneficiary, not benefactor.

Ogene001:

Ibadan is surrounded by empty bush unlike the east where small city with have endless sprawling countryside

Ibadan might be surrounded by bush, but when measured, the area of Ibadan's built up landscape alone will swallow thousands of square kilometers of medium density vilage sprawl typical of the SE landscape.
The advantage to the Yoruba settlement pattern is also that they have ample virgin land to embark of novel mega projects closer to their city cores without displacing too many people in the countryside; like the brand new ring road infrastructure that is currently being built to encircle the whole of Ibadan or the Ibadan dry port unlike the East where such developers would suffer to find large continuous tracts of land free of human 'obstructions' by way of villages and might eventually have to resort to moving very far away from the intended service area of the project....

Ogene001:

Ekiti, gombe bayelsa are small states. It has nothing to do with size of states but population clusters

Who told you Gombe is small? Gombe is small in the North, not in the south.
Bayelsa is swamp normally and is extremely hard to build up.
As for Ekiti, it is on the list.

So are you saying it is more developed than the FCT which isn't on the list?

Just a fancy word for Population density.

The smaller states will naturally be more compact. But by the time you do the math, you will see that the SW is the most urbanized zone in Nigeria by miles, with the largest total area of built up zones.
You can see that all the states there are mostly the smaller states except Ogun state whose population has already surpassed 10 million by now, pushing it into the list.

Udazi:
There is nothing like if, it is not an uncommon scenario anywhere in the world,French and Italian have 89% lexical similarities but only have partial mutual intelligibility and are regarded as separate languages and people.

With the 91% lexical similarities between Esan and Benin. That is why they are regarded as one of the very few languages in Africa and the world that are said to be mutually intelligible

Read this.
Learn to follow thread contents before quoting ppl pls.
Your Italian-French analogy only proves the point. High degree of lexical similarity but difficulty in two way communication because of various other linguistic factors.

scholes0:


While this may be true though, lexical similarity is just one factor that determines mutual comprehensibility. There are also things like language structure/grammar/arrangement, evolved divergent tones and inflections, speed of speech, use or lack thereof originally universal terms that are retained or dropped etc.

What is the real life experience of people (native speakers of these languages) trying to understand the other will be the real determinant of how much they can communicate. Linguistics for example say Igala and central Yoruba are share about 60% lexical similarity. in practical terms however, I doubt a Lagosian can even understand one third (35%) of Igala.
But if Benins and Esans do actually understand 91% of one another IRL, then surely both languages and even identities should have since merged into one.

oyatz:


You can compare many things simultaneously.

Both Yoruba and Edo ,though are different belong to the same KWA language family.

As you move away from Bini towards Akure, Ilesha, Ife, Gbogan, Iwo to Ejigbo to Oyo, you will notice that the dialects become more different from Bini and closer to Yoruba Ajumolo.

You are comparing two things that are within the same set (SE Yoruba and NW Yoruba) to something that is not within their set and is in a different set all together, (Edo language).
SE Yoruba native speakers can not understand ordinary 'come' in Edo language. You can do broad based analysis, but your initial remark was way off vis-a-vis the two language groups.

oyatz:


I also believe this too.

As Bini became an Empire, it got exposed to and incorporated elements of other dialects, from Yoruba in the West to Igbo in the East and European languages in the South.

Exactly.
But not just as a result of empire alone. The grammar and sound inventory of Edo is actually said to be reduced compared to the Northern Edoid languages like Ososo or Weppa Wanno as a result of migratory denudation.

oyatz:



All these are not necessary sir.

Both Bini and Yoruba are related and spoke variants of the same Language in the distant past.

All Languages evolve and some dialects eventually transform into different languages if they remain isolated for too long or encounter and mix with other languages languages.

The emergence of the Oyo Empire (which encountered and mixed with many different peoples) made the Yoruba language to evolve into somewhat, different language from Edo and Southeast Yoruba dialects spoken between Ile-Ife to Ondo/Ekiti States

Yoruba language includes the Southeast Yoruba dialects. The main difference between Oyo dialects and their SE counterparts is mostly that the Central and SE dialects are more conservative and have a stronger archaic (original) inventory as compared to Oyo which has a simpler structure and is less conservative.
Edo on the other hand is a different language all together. You can't be putting Edo and SE Yoruba in the same bracket as if they were the same thing and then comparing both to Oyo.

Ologbo147:
That’s true Esan’s intonation and the word for some technical terms set her aside as a separate language. They speak “Bini” like a Portuguese speaking it, also the word for some technical terms is also different between Bini and Esan.

The word for blood in Bini is Esagien, the word for blood in Esan is Aranlen. I think the word for bone is different too. However the high rate of lexical similarity between the two languages gave these two languages uncommon level of intelligibility that other “lects” deemed as separate languages ordinarily would not have


It is what has been studied o, it is there o, that is why Okojie asserted that even among present Day Esan generation, speaking Bini may be difficult, but it is unnecessary for an Esan to learn it before understanding it. As you already asserted, lexical similarity is not the only determinant of a dialect

Read this part, I added it after. Can they (Esan and Benin) communicate smoothly apart from Igueben people?

scholes0:

But if Benins and Esans do actually understand 91% of one another IRL, then surely both languages and even identities should have since merged into one.

Ologbo147:
T
Should we now say Ekpon people are Igbo-Ika or should we say Orogun people are Igbos because they are bilinguals.

But you know Usen's case is unique compared to these examples. These ones learned Ika and Ndokwa respectively because of proximity. Usen people speak a Yoruba dialect because of both ancestry and proximity.
And that is why even though their history points to Ife, their dialect is closer to an eastern Yoruba dialect like Ikale or Idanre, and not a central dialect like Ife. Because the Eastern Yoruba and the Edos became their immediate neighbours over time, so they picked up both dialects.

Ologbo147:
at 91 percent, the lexical similarity is so high, such that Okojie asserted that an Esan man does not need to learn the Bini language before he understands it.

Many dialects do not get close to 91, Benin and Oza is 72%

While this may be true though, lexical similarity is just one factor that determines mutual comprehensibility. There are also things like language structure/grammar/arrangement, evolved divergent tones and inflections, speed of speech, use or lack thereof originally universal terms that are retained or dropped etc.

What is the real life experience of people (native speakers of these languages) trying to understand the other will be the real determinant of how much they can communicate. Linguistics for example say Igala and central Yoruba are share about 60% lexical similarity. in practical terms however, I doubt a Lagosian can even understand one third (35%) of Igala.
But if Benins and Esans do actually understand 91% of one another IRL, then surely both languages and even identities should have since merged into one.

Ologbo147:
Maybe that is the reality, it was never my central idea. I just wanted to reply to that man that said we are forcing ourselves on Esan when lexical similarity between Bini and Esan stands at 91%

Sure, they are al Edoid languages.

Ologbo147:
They don’t have right to call him that, there are bilingual clans in Every tribe, in ika, clans like Alilehan and Alisor are Bini groups originally that also picked up languages and culture of their host as a result are bilinguals.

Is it Esan, in Ekpon you have bilingual attributes, in Urhobo you have Orogun that speak both Kwale and Urhobo. Anyone that will do so is doing so out of ignorance.

Are we not in this Nigeria? Those who want to use it as agenda will surely use it. I still heard at least 3 Esans call Olumide "That Yoruba guy from Edo south" today alone and what I am saying is that it completely makes sense why they would refer to him as such.
If someones name is Shola Elawure or Abiodun Okpeseyi from Usen, is he a Yoruba or Benin man?

Ologbo147:
Ozalla is closer to Esan because she has irrevocably mixed with Esan over the years, what about the other owan dialects, Ozalla is a minute part of Owan and very close to Esan land.

Well, in truth the Owan dialects are actually more like a continuum. Some parts are closer to Esan, some parts like Warrake and Ivbiaro are closer to Yekhee and they understand Auchi more than they do their fellow 'Owans'.
Some like Otuo and Ikhin are their own thing entirely with plenty Yoruba loan words. Luleha is more central. But don't comletely discount that linguistic appraisal that the Edoid languages actually originated in the North and streamed downwards. Even Yoruboid is the same. The dialects closer to the Niger-Benue confluence are older than the ones in the interior south west.