shymexx: @Omonnakoda

I definitely won't call myself an authority on Yoruba history, perhaps due to my background. But I think I've got the basic knowledge, which I'll term as "knowledge of self" - needed to discuss the subject matter and draw comparisons that are relative to it. However, I would say when trying to bring another perspective to a topic - or should I say; trying to open a new frontier - we should be careful about what we say. I rate you and admire some of your posts - however, I'm disappointed with this one.

Firstly, Oyo, like every other empire that existed before after it, subdued other groups. But I don't see anything wrong in that since it's the norm. However, that doesn't negate the fact that the core groups under Oyo had similar ancestry, origin, language and culture/tradition. I'll leave Ilorin out of it for now and focus on Yoruba. I'm not a big fan of Ilorin due to where their loyalty lies and their betrayal of Yoruba people.

Secondly, I can't really say much about about the Ekiti's and Ondo's since I don't really know much about their history. However, I'll talk about the Ijebu's. The Ijebu's have always traced their ancestry to Ife, via Obanta. The alternative history and Waddai story started due to the animosity a lot of Yoruba groups have towards the Ijebu's. Perhaps, due to the Ijebu monopoly of the coast during the Kiriji wars. And I honestly don't blame certain Ijebu's for trying to be distinct from the Yoruba's - because there's only so much hate you can take from people who you believe are the same as you. Evidently, the Ife claim by the Ijebu's is as old as Ijebu itself.

Yes, the Ijebu's did have a separate kingdom from Oyo. However, if Oyo's and Ijebu's saw themselves as distinct groups. I honestly don't think a lot of Ijebu's would have been allowed to settle in Oyo and Ibadan (which was part of Oyo empire) when the empire reigned supreme. We can also use Eko as well. The Awori's were the first to settle there after migrating from Ife. Then, the Ijebu's were next. And subsequently, the other Yoruba groups - from the Ekiti's and Ijesha's, to the Oyo's in Ikoyi etc. and together they formed the Idejo Chiefs. Heck, almost all the names of the places in Eko which is considered an Awori town, are of Ijebu origin, to their biggest festival - the Eyo festival. So if they never saw themselves as the same people and they never believed they have the same ancestry - how were they all able to get along? And all these happened way before the 19th century.

Also, your assertion that the Oyo kingship is either borgu or nupe is bogus, since everyone knows that Oranmiyan founded Oyo and that's their royal family. If that were to be the case, then the Egba kingship is also Oyo, since the Egba's migrated from Ibadan to Abeokuta. We may also say the Modakeke kingship is ife, since they migrated from Oyo to Ife. Just because Oyo started in Borgu (or wherever it started up North) before moving to Oyo Ile, that doesn't mean the kingship is from those who occupy that place presently.


Lastly, I don't believe in that bogus assertion that Savanah people moved to interact with the forest people in the case of the Yoruba's. If you look at pre-historic times and how it's widely believed that West Africa was a barren land - with no inhabitants. You would understand that the bulk of the people who're called, "Yoruba" today came from the same ancestors and they migrated to present day Nigeria - in different migration waves - via Ife. Some settled in the Savanah region, while the rest settled in the forest region. However, that doesn't negate their similarities and ancestry. Yes, they did mix with other people, but the core group, is still intact. They were called, 'Lukumi', 'Anago', 'Oyo' - and now 'Yoruba' - however, that doesn't change their identity and who they are. Anyway, your hypothesis is flawed.

West Africa was a barren land? when The Oyo Empire is believed to have come into existence around 1400. But there is archaelogical evidence for example Nok terracottas which show people in the region over 1000 years earlier. There is archaeological evidence from Okigwe of human presence 10000 years ago. West Africa was not a barren place. People lived in Ife over 1000 years before there was Oyo The problem many Yoruba have is their ignorance of Ifa and its traditions. The Ifa system was in existence long before Oduduwa or Oyo. A good knowledge of Ifa will help one to have an open mind and not accept as gospel accounts that were published by the first people who could read and write in English.
When we talk about Yoruba history do we mean Oyo history or something else. True "Yoruba" history believes that Ile-ife is where life started NOT the garden of Eden so how could it have been barren

Tracing history to Ife for Ijebus is true but this has nothing to do with being YORUBA. ALL MEN ARE FROM IFE THAT IS IFA TRADITION
This includes Chinese Ibos and others. This is why any Yoruba would trace their origin to Ife

Many Yorubas miss or are not aware of this fundamental doctrine and its implications

This is not account of "Yoruba" people but of the WORLD and Human existence
"If they(OYO) saw them as distinct Ijebus would not have been allowed to settle" You Say?? This is simply not true. Nupe(Tapa) settled all over so called Yorubaland as did many others e.g. Ijaw,Ebira etc. It is important to have an idea of the trends at different times. During periods of war there were lots of mercenary soldiers of every ethnic background and a lot of "freed slaves". The population would have been very small compared to what we have today and so there was a lot of unoccupied territory. Migration was encouraged if you could swell the number of fighting men and women to bear children

Katsumoto:

I never stated that the Oyo used cavalry against other Yoruba but I suspect they may have used Cavalry against the Egba when the Egba fled Ibadan. I will check my notes to confirm later.

Edward the Confessor's father was a Germanic saxon called Ethelred and his mother was Norman. From the days of Offa, through Egbert until Harold was defeated at Hastings by the Normans, all the Kings were germanic. Not one was a Briton.

What do you mean by Germanic please do not confuse yourself and others.? Firstly let us leave the phrase "Briton" out of it it is irrelevant. We are talking about England

The ENGLISH PEOPLE ARE GERMANIC and perhaps you need to clarify what "Germanic" means. Talking about Germanic people is like talking about Scandinavians or Arabic people or Slavic peoples. You have Slavs in Many countries ditto for Scandinavians, Arabs etc.
The Dutch are Germanic too just like the Norwegians,Swedish and other Scandinavians FYI
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic_languages#Modern_status
So trying to suggest that being Germanic implies NOT being English is Ignorant
eg The English days are named after Gemanic gods
Wednesday= Wodins Day
Thors Day
Edward the Confessor was an English King.

In fact this Germanic people thing makes my point nicely. The Germanic peoples were NEVER in one nation

just like so called Yoruba people

Luxembourg
England
Holland'
Germany
Austria
Norway
Sweden
Denmark
ARE ALL NATIONS OF GERMANIC PEOPLES


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic_Tribes

Katsumoto:

It is a fact that Oyo used Cavalry. Oyo used Cavalry in its defeat of the Dahomians who used gun powder to startle the horses forcing Oyo to rely on its infantry.

I don't think anyone is disputing that Oyo territory was up North. After the Oyo took back old oyo and Nupe country, it made a strategic decision to remain at Oyo Ile.

Having read the Bini account, the Ife account, and the Ilaje account, I am convinced Oduduwa existed. I am also convinced that Oduduwa was not Yoruba. I am led to conclude that he was Bini. But I believe he met Yoruba people at Ifa. After the revolt against the old rulers in Ife, the rulers fled southbounds and became the Ilajes/mahins. The migration of the 7 Obalades also lends credence to the existence of Oduduwa. What is usually disputed are his origins.

No one is disputing that Oyo used calvary . Did they use calvary against other Yorubas? Where?
Many people are Convinced Adam and Eve existed but convictions cannot be passed off as FACTS

Katsumoto:

When empire building starts, the builders always start with their own brothers. Many groups despite being conquered, still revert to their practices after the conquerors are gone. After the Romans left Brittany, why didn't the English continue speaking Latin? What influence of Rome remained in Egypt after the Romans left? What influence of Greece was left in India? Oyo never conquered Lagos but the people in Lagos spoke Yoruba.

Oduduwa's children started the Yoruba expansion but Oduduwa himself met Yoruba people at Ife and as such Oduduwa can't be said to be the progenitor of the Yoruba but certainly, it was his children that gave rise to the various Yoruba Kingdoms. So I agree with you that the Yoruba can't have one father. But origins usually start with conquerors. English Royal history starts with Germanic tribes who conquered Southern England. England has never had a King or Queen who was English but the people of England were present there even before Roman conquest.

The Oyo kingdoms were ambitious and all ambitious kingdoms always learn of new practices which are subsequently introduced into war. Many of the artifacts used by Europeans during their centuries of war were copied from others. Most notably gun powder which has Chinese origins. Similarly, the Oyo kings started the use of cavalry in war through their relationship with the Fulani, Nupe, etc.

England was unified under an Anglo-Saxon called Ethelstan.

i am quite happy to admit I am guessing or speculating. How do you know all these claims you are making are true about Oduduwa or that Oduduwa actually existed??

England had several kingdoms who were English;Yorkshire,Lancashire and Cornwall to name a few they all lived independently but were English or Angles kings . The process of Bringing them under ONE king is essentially empire building. Edward the Confessor WAS AN ENGLISH KING

The Oyo NEVER conquered everyone in Yoruba land. Your story about Calvary has significant flaws Calvary was not useful in the forest and that was why the Fulani could not advance. This suggests that Old Oyo initially was in a more Northern location and were driven southward by the heat of the conflict in Nupe Borgu Territorries . Take into account that the Savanna has been expanding southward as a result of Geographic changes.
The OYo were able to defeat several Yoruba kingdoms but could not sustain their control and so by the time the British Came Oyo was dead as an empire. Ibadan was a more influential force. The Ijebus were more assertive and controlling the trade routes so EMPIRE in Oyo's imae had failed.
The British influence along with influence of the likes of Samuel Ajayi Crowther is what helped to cement an Oyo based orthography and centralized the Oyo language as the dominat literary system

lertee:
This is my only arguement,the emirate rule hs eaten deep and it will be too difficult to have an oba(yoruba form of ruling).
There r only two ruling houses in ilorin,the abdulqadirs and the gambaris,these are people with fulani descendants. The only house that could claim obaship are the Lawal's family “idi ape”,they have tried it severally and nothing happened. Majority of the emirate indigenes do not support obaship due to islam that has eaten into them and they cannot afford to go through oro and isedale of the yorubas.

Emirs do not rule anyone let us stop this misinformation.
Do Emirs control a budget?
Is there any Emir who was more influential than Oloye Saraki.
One unfortunate stereotype many Easterner have about Emirs is they have great feudal power. Yes they are influential but they are not rulers and if they step on toes they are often punished or even REMOVED by Governors or Abuja.
They are as influential as religious leaders in the South eg Adeboye or Oyakhilome and so politicians try to keep them on side but the are not in charge

Katsumoto:

It matters not what they call themselves but what they are. The reason that many groups have different names is only because one king didn't conquer the others. If Oyo or Ibadan had conquered all the other groups, all Yoruba would have been called Ibadan or Oyo.

It matters immensely.

We have the same situation in Northern Nigeria today. Hausa is a Lingua franca that does not make everyone Hausa. Though the idea is that with time people will forget their origin/history and assimilate into the Hausa identity
The reason Yoruba groups had differnet names is because they WERE DIFFERENT though you may say they had more similarity than with any other external. They were different and SEPARATE
That is where the OYO project comes in. Today we speek some variant of Oyo. But it could have been an entirely different story if The Ekitis or Ondos were in Charge.

Study the history of Empire building anywhere. If you have kingdoms that live as closely as the "YORUBA" kingdoms did you will have similarities. This romantic idea that we all have one father Oduduwa from which ALL Yorubas descended is attractive and has some spiritual and self esteem value but is it factual?
What seems more likely to me is that several small indigenous tribes have been swallowed by the Oyo Project and are now extinct. That is if we wish to trace history a thousand years back rather than just 300-500.
In England you had several Kingdoms 1000 years ago that were all unified under the NORMANS who were FRENCH and foreign. The OYO situation is no different. The indigenous people were NOT empire builders. The OYO kings introduced HORSES and empire ambitions into the region .The question is why and where did they learn this?

Oladiran: Pple always twist history as it pleases dem! It s not true dat 'yorubas' were never cooperating b4, yes dere were serious infightng but remeber,Ogedemgbe of Ijeshaland was trained by the Ibadans(Oyos) and they surely knew he was Ijesha as his tougue will always give him away, yet they trained him. When Ogedemgbe was to be sent away by the British, he was sent to an Oyo town and they did not mob him there, he lived there and returnd to Ilesha safely! Again, despite the rivalry between Ibadan and the Egbas, we all know that the Iyalode of Ibadan, Efunshetan Aniwura was an Egbawoman!
When dere is external treat, different group under the Oduduwa brotherhood usually come together to fight!

You are the one that needs not to twist my words or perhaps try and comprehend better. Did I say some "Yorubas" NEVER cooperated? There were alliances between different groups and this were seen through the prism of self-interest or preservation.
I don't know how well you know Ibadan History .As far as I know Ibadan is not a traditional kingdom.Ibadan PEOPLE are in the main Oyo with elements of several other groups. When there was the external threat of the Fulani which is the subject of this threat that threat was to the Oyo and many "Yorubas" used that opportunity to break away from the Empire

shymexx:

Anyone that falls under the circle of influence of the old Oyo, the other vassal states (with the similar people), and places that share similarities with it. Or should I say everyone who can trace their origins to Ife?

Alright, I'll use "Oyo" - if that's going to make you happy.

The problem with the Oyo empire is that it was an empire which means that all those groups that it subdued are likely to strive for their independence when circumstances are favourable and that is exactly what happened to Oyo in the early 19th century. Ilorin that a lot of people talk about is populated to a significant extent by descendants of slaves from sevral places. Ilorin was a place where slaves could claim their freedom especially if they could fight. It was a garrison town and that is the context in which it broke away from Oyo many of the so called Fulani were mercenary soldiers who were often freed slaves. We must remember that The Nupe and Borgu bore the brunt of slave raiding by the Oyos.

Tracing history to Ife was common just like Arabs and Jews trace their history to Adam but theywere always fighting as the Old testament tells us .There were several nations in Western Nigeria who spoke a "Lingua franca of Oyo language"" but tracing History to Ife Oduduwa etc did not have the same meaning that it appears to have today i.e we were ONE NATION or we are ONE PEOPLE. That would be a strange idea o a 19th century Ekiti or Egba man. That was never the case. The only people that attempted that were the OYO and that is most likely after their kings had been killed and replaced by Borgus or Nupes long before the Fulani Saga. You will observe that the other groups Ekiti,Ijebu<Ondo etc never tried to rule others through empire building.

There is another factor to consider; Geography there has been dessert encroachment over the centuries and the Savanna Belt has shifted southward meaning that Savanna peoples came into interaction with Forest peoples. Oyos used horses in their empire building which suggests they were most likely living in the Ilorin/Borgu territory before being force southwards by conflict.
My Hypothesis is that there are those "Yorubas" with a Savanna background and others with a forest background and a lot of the history has been fudged by the Empire but I have met in my life old people who refer to Oyo as "Yoruba People" indicating that they did not consider themselves Yoruba

mumu

Ngodigha1:
I usually don't read your posts. But from today, I will be reading what you type. Dude, you are not really what I thought you were.
You an an intelligent poster.

shymexx: Why can't Yoruba's leave these snakes alone and let them go with the North?

Who are these Yorubas exactly. The issue of Yorubacame up because of Nigeria if you go to Benin Republic that will give you a clearer picture of the reality.The Yoruba speakers there do not call themselves "Yoruba" which was also the case before the British came to Nigeria

Katsumoto:

That is more about migration. Those that migrated from Katunga are descendants of Oranmiyan who was a grandson of Oduduwa. In any case, Oranmiyan travelled northwards from Ife after leaving Ife.

I am not talking about migration I am talking about the kings and the fact that the Oyo kings are probably of Nupe or Borgu Origin. When we talk about Yoruba it is assumed that there is homogeneity .But there are many so called Yoruba groups today who would NEVER have come to the aid of OYO in their fight against the Fulani. The Ijebus e.g never had any frienship with Oyo and did not consider them compatriots. This is probably true of The Ekiti among others

COOLDUN:


Ignorance is a disease , through you i have come to confirm this wise word. You will be the first to condemn him when he loses focus tomorrow. A word is enough for a wise but fools like you can never be intelligent even if your empty skulls are filled with words of advise. An achiever doesn't make noise.

The greatest achievers in this world toady are men/women of few words not noise makers. SE , won the AFCON this year because they were quiet and focused , not even you nor NFF officials believed then that they could win the cup, people like you were calling them Super/Fried Chicken then, while the NFF booked the return tickets in advance before their quarter final match with Cote d'Ivoire , they surprised you and i, now they are heroes. Messi is one of the best thing that happen to Football still he never mention anybody's name or records.

Your ignorance is hereditary that is why you never see any reason in my comment, check your comment and tell me how many Likes it got simpleton. My comment is meant for the wise and prudent people and not drug addicts/lunatics like you.

Wise people learn from history, while fools perish with history. By the time Emenike focus on record creation and breaking he will loose focus and become a history like others. Then you will come on nairaland and shower him your venomous insults as it was passed to you by your ill mannered parents. I will continue to reply fools like you because you need to learn, but refused to learn.

You no get sense!

There was never a Yoruba land before Nigeria so clearly this piece is not well informed. It is not an automatic thing that if Nigeria were to break up there would be a Yoruba Nation. When the British started conducting census in "Yorubaland" No one identified themselves as Yoruba. People were Oyo,Ekiti,Ijebu etc and so if Nigeria were to break up everyone will determine what they want to do. Even in the so called Caliphate it is an error to believe that the Sultan of Sokoto ruled over Hausa land .This is wrong .'
The Fulani situation is not different from Monarchies in Europe.The English Monarchy are not English but have French,German and other origins.

A lot of Yoruba may not believe this but I genuinely believe that the Oyo or at least their kings are more likely of Nupe/borgu Origin than Odua especially when you consider the original location of Oyo Ile which probably was in Kwara/Niger State territory

COOLDUN: Emmanuel Chukwunenye Emenike, as a junior brother i would advise you to focus on your games and leave the comperism and record breaking for now. Nigerians and their press can destroy players at any given moment, there was a time Etim John Esin was in every lips until he was framed up in Belgium and was deserted by the Nigerians and pressmen who were hailing him as Nigeria's Maradona, Daniel Amokachi Da bull came on board they started showering him with praises even went along and published that he had a private jet, but when injury came knocking he was dumped until luck came to his favors to serve under the National teams coaches.

Please stop comparing yourself with any player both living or dead for now and focus on your games ahead, when you perform well all those things would come by themselves, the day Victor Ikpeba was given the African Best player he was busy in Monaco, i listened to the interview on BBC radio focus on Africa sports section then, the lady interviewer confessed that he was the most eloquent African player she had ever interviewed after the interview.

I know you very well, but you don't know me, i know your brothers and sisters very well as one of them that is married at Ugbele Umuaka's husband is my childhood friend, Though many think that you are from Aguleri in Anambra , because you and your brothers were there for a very long time, You are an Igbo man from Ndeziama Amakor Autonomus community in Njaba LGA. Imo state. You are my junior brother , Arinze your brother is the one that know me. I am not saying these things to impress you but to make you know that i know many things about you. Your success in the round leather game is bringing up the names of your town Amakor, Neibouring town Amazano, Obeakpu and your maternal home Uba Umuaka, the Isiozi , Ugbele, Amiyi, Achara, Obinwanne, Umuele , and entire Njaba LGA, Orlu Imo and Ndigbo are proud of you.

Beware from comparism and records breaking for now my brother, it brings envy and distractions my dear brother. If you are reading this my write up or anyone that knows you directly should pass these words of warning to you. I am not commanding you but only advising you my brother.

God almighy will increase your efforts and reward you with more victories, glories and laurels, IJN, Amen.

You no get sense. The bad tin be say you tink say u get

Maybe this is why Mr Demuren was sacked .who knows?

DerideGull:

Again, I maintain that Nigeria’s problems hinged on individuals such as you who can not differentiate between corruption and incompetence. I regret to call you compatriot who turn everything topic in Nigeria into a corruption debate. Where is the corruption in the purchase of two BMW cars with a receipt? Do not be concerned about Biafra.

Have you seen the receipt. Old men WITH SENSE do not talk without FACTS or based on rumors.
If you government buys a bottle of coke for Ten million Naira and presents a "RECEIPT" will you say it is "INCOMPETENCE" ? Why not go and finish your fufu before it gets cold

4=1

Walexz02: southampton will pay for confronting us

Dem done pay naa

Afam4eva: When i first looked at the title of this thread, the thread starter and some of the handles behind some comments, that's when i knew that this was one of those threads inspired by idleness and preserved by ignorance.

First and foremost, the King of Igbodo must not marry someone from outside Igbodo, despite being in Agbor which is also in Ika. This has nothing to do with the wife of the King being Igbo or Hausa. So, the attempt by some ignorant people on this thread to credit such an action to the Un-Igboness of Ika can be best described as petty. I can even see some people on this thread ganging up with people who have defiled their ethnic group to laugh at their own heritage. That's the height of efulefusim.

I also find it strange that Solomon11 who has been a proud Ika son can be called an impostor by people who we're not even sure are from Ika in the first place. To a lot of people, when someone dissociates Ika from Igbo then he is an authentic Ika and when he doesn't, he's an impostor.

Ika, just like some other parts of Delta and Rivers state have an identity criris and while some of them deny their Igboness due to the influence of the Bini empire, others embrace their Igboness and this could be seen when they attended the Igbo day in Asaba last year and they didn't attend the event under duress.

So you have issues with the thread starter .Well you are certainly more idle than I am but I pray you remain a mod FOR LIFE.
Is it Ika or Ibos that have identity crisis?That is an arrogant statement to make. Chech the relationship of Anambra to Owerris or other Ibos to the so called Wawa. What About Aro and Ngwa. There is much evidence of Crisis in the Ibo household without you stirring things up for Ikas

Ika oo ni baje

I can see Afam is viewing the thread.
So Afam what do you think of the Ibo-Igbodo Queen Impeachment Melee?
Surely you do agree that it is indeed a melee

The real issue here is that Igbodo people or is it Ibodo Have made it clear they do not accept Ibo wives as suitable or having the right vintage for their Monarch. This is confusing for those of us who aways believed Igbodos were just another bunch of Ibos showing off by elongating their name with a random selction fron do re mi
so it could have been
Igbo -re Igbo-do,mi etc
But chose to go with Igbodo. Now we are learning that is not the case and there is no relationship whatsoever. Which leaves us all scratching our heads in Sympathy for the impeached Ibo Igbodo ex-queen(u know what I mean)

So where the Ibo wife come dey now as dem pursue from Palace? I hope say him no dey Boyskwataz

Which kain "WE" Nsofor dey talk,Him follow??

This is a clip of Garrincha a very impressive player but how does he compare with the Messis and Ronaldinhos of today

Old timers always claim the best of their day is better than the best of today. Is this really true in football? It is widely claimed that the 1970 Brazil National team including Pele,Didi,Garrincha, Rivellino is the BEST EVER. Unfortuntely Television was not as advance in 1970 as it is now and so very few clips with fewer angles unlike today.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Od6KVVCScto

Afam4eva:
There's a difference between where it belongs and where it deserves to be. It's not a contradiction

OK

Afam4eva: 11.31 am
I actually think it belongs to the car section cos the thread talks more about the car brand(BMW) and the cost and has little political content.

Afam4eva:

11.51 am


I actually think the topic deserves to be in the political section but i think it was moved because of the title of the tread. Anyways, let me hustle to get it back.

Na wa O

Afam4eva: 37 goals is actually an abysmal record according to world standard and even an average striker can break that record in a few years. The reason why our strikers don't score much goals is due to the limited number of matches at their disposal.

Honestly you are spouting hot air and do not know what you are talking about. You clearly know little about football

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_international_association_football_goal_scorers_by_country

The most important question is how many games did he play and what is the ratio of goals scored to games played. For Yekini this is 0.64 and one of the highest ever certainly in the TOP 20. It is not the best but to be top 20 in what you do is far from "Abysmal". I can only conclude you learnt the word abysmal recently and want to practice it
I suggest you read up on Luigi Riva

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luigi_Riva

He scored only 35 goals , 2 fewer than Yekini but with an even Higher ratio 0.83 which is where yekini might be if he di not play on After95/96.

No one in their right mind would describe Riva's record as Abysmal


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpaqwYGuzAU

ilugunboy:

Count your blessings....you are very lucky to get three days for such offence from such responsible mod...if its your brother Sexkillz...the minimum a non-Ibo poster that commited such offence of yours is nothing less than 7 days. Count your blessings.

Funny! long bans are good in my view. It can help you stay away from many berks on this forum. The longer the better. Does not stop me saying what I want when I return.

Afam4eva:
I actually think it belongs to the car section cos the thread talks more about the car brand(BMW) and the cost and has little political content.

Rubbish the reason the cost is being discussed is because it is being disputed. The debate is about misppropriation of public funds not a technical interest in the merits of BMW. Hypocrisy! Are you suggesting you will move it back if the content gets "POLITICAL". You should have waited for the discussion to develop before rushing to conclude on its "esssence and nature" Making such a decision after only a few posts is just rash

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLoVXX15034

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15JVF9zkgys