₦airaland Forum

andrewza: What reshearch. He qutoed a artical writen by the sme group of people that say our subs never sail while they at sea, our frigates never sail while they returning from south amrica, our helcoters never fly while they conducting recues.

Henry120: From bully boys to wimps: the decline of SA's military
04 MAY 2012 00:00 - PHILLIP DE WET

A comprehensive review of SA's military capabilities paints a grim picture of the country's defence capabilities. Let's hope Lesotho doesn't invade.

OUR COVERAGE

What warship? Zuma claim holds no water
MORE COVERAGE





It is a good thing that Botswana, Namibia and Zimbabwe do not seem to have any territorial ambitions, because if they chose to annex a few South African provinces, the defence force would be hard-pressed to stop them, especially if Lesotho decided to get into the action.

A large and long overdue review of South Africa’s defence capabilities and needs, now in the phase of public consultation, paints a grim picture.

The country has too few fighting men and women, often with old or useless equipment, often without the discipline required to constitute an effective fighting force, little ability to deploy them rapidly, little by way of heavy equipment to back them up and a severely limited ability to communicate with them once they are in the field.


Shortcomings stretch from basic training to intelligence capability, leaving the defence force if not defenceless as such, at least easily out-matched by a sufficiently large multi-front attack using chemical or biological weapons, heavily armoured units or any combination of these.

And that is the formal, written version. In private, analysts and military professionals across the board scoff at the idea that South Africa could defend itself from any serious, determined, concerted attack almost as much as they scoff at the idea that such an attack could take place in the foreseeable future.

“We are not going to fight a conventional war in the short-to-medium term,” said Len le Roux, a retired major general and consultant to the Institute for Security Studies on defence policy.

But if national defence remains the real job of the defence force, the defence review says, then somebody will have to pay for it.

“The persistent disconnect between the defence mandate, government expectation and resource allocation has eroded defence capabilities to the point where the defence force is unable to fully deliver its constitutional responsibility to defend and protect South Africa and its people and further cannot even support the current modest level of ambition,” the discussion draft reads.

Although it takes a high-level strategic view and specifically steers clear of enumerating crises and the cost of fixing them, the 423-page document makes it abundantly clear that maintenance of crumbling runways, for instance, will not wait. And there is wide consensus that almost every capability the defence force has is fast being eroded.

“We are at the point where we have two choices: either we spend a big chunk of money, or we do not intervene and we accept that we are going beyond the point of no return,” said Abel Esterhuyse, associate professor of strategy at Stellenbosch University’s faculty of military science and editor of the South African Journal of Military Studies.

That does not mean splurging on capital equipment arms-deal style. Both the review and analysts who were not involved in its drafting said operational funds were what was most desperately needed—money for the everyday running of the armed services rather than expensive equipment. What the existing forces need instead is to actually use their equipment, including what has already been bought at such expense and controversy.

“You have aircraft like the Gripen ... unless you have a certain number of flying hours a month you begin to lose the skills of the pilots and you can quite easily dig a large hole in the ground with a supersonic jet,” said David Chuter, a lecturer, a writer on defence and a former British defence official with a long history of project involvement in South Africa.

“The risk is that quite soon you have the pilot and you have the aircraft, but you don’t have a pilot capable of flying the aircraft effectively.”

Defence against the type of aggression that requires a Gripen fighter jet is not South Africa’s main area of concern at the moment, but the principle seems to hold true for the duties the military, air force and navy are carrying out.

Insufficient practice compounds problematic hardware and initial training and results in a force that has neither the credibility required to deter aggression nor the ability to fight poachers in the Kruger Park or pirates off the Mozambican coast. And there is a sense of near despair at the failure of politicians who order such tasks to fund them.

“Border protection was given back to the defence force from the South African Police Service [in 2010] without any substantial increase in budget to do that,” said Roelf Meyer, chairperson of the committee responsible for the defence review. “If the expectation is that we should take care of border protection and if it is a government priority, then we need more money.”

Although Meyer’s committee is independent of the military and tasked with reviewing it in terms of government priorities, he tends to slip into a parental “we” when speaking of the seemingly impossible demands being placed on the defence force. His committee’s draft document reads like an extended pitch for funding.

Still, his group well understands the political trouble a sudden and substantial increase in military spending would cause and seems to have learned from the work of the National Planning Commission. That body first published indicators—hard data with a touch of analysis that illustrated problems in an unarguable way. Once that was accepted, criticism of its subsequent hard-hitting recommendations was more difficult and critics found themselves called on to provide alternatives. The defence review could create the same type of baseline for the fully costed budget that will have to follow.

“I would like to see us build a consensus around the document as much as we can so that, when we put it to Parliament, we can say this is the view of South Africans,” said Meyer.

“I would hope we would be able to give this document to the minister [of defence] for her to put forward the argument, which I don’t think is any secret: the defence force is underfunded.”

In some respects, the argument for more money—and it will be an argument—will be easier than at any time in the past decade, the dragging bad karma of the arms deal notwithstanding. Better border protection also means preventing more smuggling of cigarettes and other goods that attract high levels of tax and are easily loaded on to a light aircraft, which should have a direct impact on taxes collected and thus be attractive to the more economically minded.

Combatting rhino poaching by way of the military tactics Chuter summarised, such as “scaring the shit” out of poachers through helicopter-landed special forces, touches on an issue particularly emotive for the middle class.

An improved peacekeeping capability would delight those with a pan-African bent. Commercial fishermen would approve of better patrolling of South Africa’s waters.

And, should the administration in charge in 2013 wish to reduce rather than magnify the perceived waste of money on the arms deal, a little bit of money could go a long way.

“For a relatively small amount of extra money, you can actually start making use of all this kit properly, in a way that would justify the initial expenditure and allow the defence force to carry out the missions it was bought for effectively,” said Chuter.

From defanged to refanged: How political change shaped the force
WHERE THINGS WENT WRONG
The disconnect between military requirements and military funding had its roots in the transition from apartheid, analysts said. It was a time when the overriding priority was to prevent a military coup, although there was a secondary nod to showing the rest of Southern Africa that South Africa would never again be a threat. That meant disempowering the military rather than supporting it and subsequent swift policy changes did not help.

“Mandela was trying to get the military out of the domestic environment. There was all this suspicion and doubt with white generals and black politicians, so the emphasis was on pulling them out of the domestic realm,” said Stellenbosch University’s Abel Esterhuyse. “Mbeki deployed the military into the foreign policy environment and made the key decision to disband the commando system, [leading to] the loss of that blanket domestic intelligence capability that we had across every small town in the country.

“Now, in the Zuma era, we are seeing that the police cannot cope with domestic challenges, so subtly the emphasis is starting to move towards a return to the domestic realm for the military. We do not want to be seen to be scaling down on our international commitments, but that is where it is going.”


Costly mission: The Gripen fighter jet. (Frans Dely)

In the middle of those shifts came the last formal defence review, conducted in 1998, which magnificently failed to predict anything like the actual future.

“There was a bit of a utopian view at the time, especially about Africa,” said Len le Roux, who was involved in that process. “The Cold War was over, apartheid was gone, so what could go wrong in Africa? The extent of South Africa’s commitment to peace missions was just not foreseen — and other stuff—I mean, who predicted the Arab Spring two years ago? Who predicted the way piracy would start up?”

But even as it became clear that South Africa would be a major participant in far-flung and complex missions for a long time to come, the requirement for more social spending and a big increase in public servant wages demanded reductions elsewhere. Then the global financial crisis struck state income.

DOMESTIC DEPLOYMENT
Deploying troops within South Africa’s borders in situations in which they could end up in conflict with civilians was long politically unpalatable. This, however, seems to be changing fast. The defence review makes no value judgment on domestic deployment, but coyly points out that the army requires urban warfare training anyway, which has value both in fighting insurgents north of Limpopo and in arresting violent service delivery protesters.

Effective border patrols would require a highly manoeuvrable component, such as motorbike squads, which likewise has a dual purpose. Non-lethal ammunition for the military is considered an important need, as is creating a faster process to authorise the deployment of defence units.



Analysts and military veterans also point out that the use of heavier weapons and explosives by crime syndicates requires an equal or greater response and that democracy may not be best served by militarising the police service to the point where it could handle such threats.

LABOUR ISSUES
The military has a labour problem. According to the defence review, it lacks a sufficient number of fighting soldiers while employing people variously described as uneconomical or ill-suited to their tasks. And it is costing too much. In the past financial year, 55% of the military budget went to personnel costs, whereas 40% is generally agreed to be a more acceptable level.

Outside analysts and former commanders, however, go much further. They said the application of general labour practices in the military meant an inability to discipline soldiers and prevented unsuitable recruits from being weeded out.

This, in a service such as the army that already has a clash of culture between the old defence force ways and the different norms brought in by the integration of forces from armed-struggle groups, has caused trouble. Add to the mix poorly conceived change to the formal discipline system and you have chaos.

“The current military discipline system [which entered into force in 1999] has not served its intended purpose and has conversely served to weaken military discipline and undermine the power of commanders,” said the defence review.

“The system has specifically disempowered commanders by removing summary discipline.”

After more than a decade under such a system and with the debate on unionisation within the defence force still unsettled, the results are starting to show and affect South Africa’s reputation.

“When you have troops on deployment in another country, they are representing you; they are flying your flag,” said one observer.

“When you have people misbehaving in shared United Nations camps and when you hear unflattering comparisons between South African officers and officers from other African countries, I wonder how much good we’re doing our strategy in Africa.”

THE MANY JOBS OF THE DEFENCE FORCE
On paper, the defence force has only one real objective: to seem scary enough to deter other countries or groups from looking for trouble and be ready enough to counter such trouble if it does develop. But as the review spells out in painstaking detail, it is being used in a wide range of other roles.

Peacekeeping operations
Troops have been deployed to a number of countries on the continent, where they have faced everything up to light artillery fire.

Border protection
After a hiatus of several years, the defence force was in 2010 ordered back to the borders. That is nearly 4 000km of coastline—excluding territorial waters—and a little less than 4 500km of land borders.

Piracy prevention
With pirates based in Somalia operating as far south as the Mozambique channel and with no other country on the east coast of Africa capable of patrolling waters far beyond its bases, the navy has by default become responsible for doing so.

Police support
Joint deployment has been few and far between, but the indications are that the army and air force will increasingly be called to battle gangs and help to quell service delivery protests.

Anti-poaching
Fighting rhino and abalone poaching requires skill and equipment found only in the military and its role in both is set to increase.

MARRYING DEVELOPMENT AND DEFENCE
The military has long resisted, with varying degrees of success, being seen as a potential creator of jobs, a developer of rural economies and, generally, a tool of the developmental agenda.


Among other non-core activities, the military is involved in anti-poaching and peacekeeping missions. (Gianluigi Guercia, AFP)

The defence review follows a similar line, pointing out that the military should “contribute to national development primarily by creating the security conditions necessary for development to take place”.

Land use and redistribution remains a particularly sticky issue. The military controls vast areas that often seem to be badly underutilised. But, the review says, some communication installations require quiet zones, some munition depots require safety zones and some types of training need wide open spaces.

The review concedes that although the defence force should not be structured around economic or social development, there are many things that can be done to help: identifying spare facilities in rural areas that communities can use for education, spreading bases more widely and making those bases procure more locally, opening base schools and hospitals to civilians and promoting local research, development and manufacture.


REVIEWING THE REVIEWERS
The defence review committee, which is due to deliver its final report in August, has at its political core a mixture of individuals with diverse experiences of the military and varying levels of political clout.

Chairperson Roelf Meyer was the minister of defence for a short period in late 1991 and early 1992, a time during which he apparently did not get along with hardline generals. He retired from politics in 2000, but still receives credit for his role as the chief government negotiator during the transition to democracy.

His deputy, Thandi Modise, received military training in Angola before being arrested as an Umkhonto we Sizwe operative. She is facing a possible revolt in North West, where she is premier.

Charles Nqakula became minister of defence after the toppling of Thabo Mbeki, apparently as a way to remove him from the safety and security portfolio, but did not survive the Zuma Cabinet reshuffle. And Tony Yengeni’s involvement in the arms deal indirectly resulted in him being jailed for a short time, but he remains a force within the ANC.—

andrewza: I found the post full on inaccruses.

Firsty are they the best fighter pilots in africa. SA was able to get some impresve air to air kills in Angola useing out classed jets. And SU 24 is a attack aircraft or strike aircraft to be presise. And has was shown the Gripen can handek the SU27.

3000 AGMs missiels? Where you get that number from.

What guns are those. Nothing out ranges the G6 and G5.

We have solders deployed in the DRC, CAR, anti piracy and Sudan not to mention burindie, Angola, lestho. Many of whome came under fire. Just because our news dose not report out fights dose not mean they never happned. We deploy more solders per capter than even nigeria.

Ethyopia is at a defacto war and has a number of hostil nations and elments suronding it so has a need for a larg milltary. SA is at peace and in the most stabel region in Africa we spend less than 2% on deffense. If a threay was present we would increase our strengh. Out budget and potsiol budget in a time of need far supases in african country excluding egpty.

andrewza: I found the post full on inaccruses.

Firsty are they the best fighter pilots in africa. SA was able to get some impresve air to air kills in Angola useing out classed jets. And SU 24 is a attack aircraft or strike aircraft to be presise. And has was shown the Gripen can handek the SU27.

3000 AGMs missiels? Where you get that number from.

What guns are those. Nothing out ranges the G6 and G5.

We have solders deployed in the DRC, CAR, anti piracy and Sudan not to mention burindie, Angola, lestho. Many of whome came under fire. Just because our news dose not report out fights dose not mean they never happned. We deploy more solders per capter than even nigeria.

Ethyopia is at a defacto war and has a number of hostil nations and elments suronding it so has a need for a larg milltary. SA is at peace and in the most stabel region in Africa we spend less than 2% on deffense. If a threay was present we would increase our strengh. Out budget and potsiol budget in a time of need far supases in african country excluding egpty.

andrewza: Or go to janes deffense

CAMEROONPRIDE: @Syndergp , please could u give me again the link of military websites? Esp the one with full infos on countries' armies.
Syndergp or andrewza

andrewza: And you faild to understand what I said. I said the valour is better than the nearest amrican equvelnt to witch you repond with proto typs that are unarmend and LCS a cotal ship with only a few point deffense wepaons and guns set up for NGS. It ois not set up for warfare vs a war ship.

agaugust: .................................E T H I O P I A............. versus ...........S O U T H - A F R I C A


even ordinary Ethiopian military will stand against South African military and will not be defeated, they will end the fight like iran-iraq war.
ethiopia has no ocean waters so the south african navy becomes useless in the battle because ethiopia is out of range of any south african navy warship if they manage to enter persian gulf, and they cannot shoot over the territory of etritrea, djibouti and somalia, all still too far away from ethiopian lands.



Ethiopian air force pilots are the best in africa and most experienced in modern jet vs jet air combat in this current generation, in year 2000 they used SU-27 jets against MIG 29 jets in real war against eritrea.

it is the most modern war ever in africa today with the best worlds weapons heavily used in that war from year 1998 to 2000

all the nice photo south african weapons and videos posted on this forum have not been used to K.ill any human being and most of the over-rated south african soldiers have not K.illed any enemy soldiers since they joined the army. Ethiopian armed forces will d.amage South african military until their boasting will stop for ever. the war will likely end in a draw, no winner.


the south african airforce 26 Grippens jets will face a powerful ethiopian air force of 8 SU-25 and 18 SU-27 jets with the more experienced ethiopian pilots.

ethiopian military is regularly tested in many wars and proved to be a bloody battlefield K.iiler force anytime anyday, the world respects them.

ethiopian army is the most experienced in africa at country vs country wars and no nation has ever defeated them from africa to arabia.

ethiopian army has 500 anti-aircraft missile launchers hand-held by infantry against enemy aircraft

ethiopia also have over 3,000 anti-tank missiles launched from their T-72 or T-62 tanks and some by infantry hand held against enemy armoured vehicles and tanks

both countries have about the same number of tanks. south africa has about 3 times more APC's. ethiopia has more helicopter gunships 18 against south african 11.

ethiopian army 1,200 heavy artillery guns
south african army 120 heavy artillery guns

ethiopian army 135,000 soldiers very experienced in recent modern combat against several other countries
south african army 30,000 soldiers with zero combat experience in recent times against any other country

all above data is from same source : free internet wikipedia of both nations army and air force

ethiopia is a more powerful military than south africa especially going by the history of both nations in real war.

south african military is just an over-rated force, egypt and algeria will defeat south africa. ethiopia and nigeria are equal in military power to south africa.

simple truth that can be confirmed on free internet information.

agaugust: .................................E T H I O P I A............. versus ...........S O U T H - A F R I C A


even ordinary Ethiopian military will stand against South African military and will not be defeated, they will end the fight like iran-iraq war.
ethiopia has no ocean waters so the south african navy becomes useless in the battle because ethiopia is out of range of any south african navy warship if they manage to enter persian gulf, and they cannot shoot over the territory of etritrea, djibouti and somalia, all still too far away from ethiopian lands.



Ethiopian air force pilots are the best in africa and most experienced in modern jet vs jet air combat in this current generation, in year 2000 they used SU-27 jets against MIG 29 jets in real war against eritrea.

it is the most modern war ever in africa today with the best worlds weapons heavily used in that war from year 1998 to 2000

all the nice photo south african weapons and videos posted on this forum have not been used to K.ill any human being and most of the over-rated south african soldiers have not K.illed any enemy soldiers since they joined the army. Ethiopian armed forces will d.amage South african military until their boasting will stop for ever. the war will likely end in a draw, no winner.


the south african airforce 26 Grippens jets will face a powerful ethiopian air force of 8 SU-25 and 18 SU-27 jets with the more experienced ethiopian pilots.

ethiopian military is regularly tested in many wars and proved to be a bloody battlefield K.iiler force anytime anyday, the world respects them.

ethiopian army is the most experienced in africa at country vs country wars and no nation has ever defeated them form africa to arabia.

ethiopian army has 500 anti-aircraft missile launchers hand-held by infantry against enemy aircraft

ethiopia also have over 3,000 anti-tank missiles launched from their T-72 or T-62 tanks and some by infantry hand held against enemy armoured vehicles and tanks

both countries have about the same number of tanks. south africa has about 3 times more APC's. ethiopia has more helicopter gunships 18 against south african 11.

ethiopian army 1,200 heavy artillery guns
south african army 120 heavy artillery guns

ethiopian army 135,000 soldiers very experienced in recent modern combat against several other countries
south african army 30,000 soldiers with zero combat experience in recent times against any other country

all data is from same source : free internet wikipedia of both nations army and air force

ethiopia is a more powerful military than south africa especially going by the history of both nations in real war. south african military is just an over-rated force, egypt and algeria will defeat south africa. ethiopia and nigeria are equal in military power to south africa. simple truth.

Capnd143: the delisional granduer that SA IS THE BEST HAS JUST GOT A NASTY SLAP;

Reports 4rm NN amoury department shows that Nigeria Navy just got delivery of

[b]215 units of naval gunboats 10m,12m,16m,17m and 20m vessels from singapore few months ago, an i am sure no military journal has that in record! The have ordered for even more ships and vessels;


1. 21 units of 17m interceptors
2. 3 units Ocea 24m CPC From france
3. 2 units shaldag mk.ii FPC'S FROm isreal
4. Plus recently another 3 25m shaldag mk.ii from isreal
5. 1 unit 32m OCEA CPC from France
6. 2 units 38m mk.11 seaegles from Singapore

{above acquisiton is 4rm our safe zones: france,singapore,isreal}


Additionally, we are getting the delivery of much anticipated 6(six) 95m tigr missile OPV's light frigate from china before 2015(jointly constructed by nigerian-chinese engineers)!

not yet through our National Assembly just approved a defense plan which involveds the acquisition of 49 warships and 42 ultra-modern helicopters for the Navy!

Please you can google all these point and prove me wrong if you think by any chance am lying!

You can also try accessing " the factfile for the Undocumented Naval armament 2013" online! Dnt eat poo military journals give you abt our navy, or u might just be suprise when in combat!

Remember our armed forces slogan " DEFEAT THE ENEMY WITH THE ELEMENT OF SUPRISE".[/b]

Henry120: Did I say he was handsome, did I write anything like that? It seems south africans truly have comprehension problems. I said " he can easily pass of for mr SA in a beauty contest", end of quote. Funny people.

snydergp: Its not a warship its a LCS (classified also as a small corvette). To few weapons systems fact.

You know nothing about warships other then what you google, you've never even sat foot on any military base yet nor at any military academy in your life maybe in ur hallucinations

Msauza: Oh! Hell no. This is an obsession, America this America that. Aguagust, let me remind you that America with all its power and influence once suffered an embarrassing defeat at the hands of Sadam Husaine using a simple SA technology. It does not mean that America with all its stealth warships will claim an easy victory against SA. Of course they will have some serious mathematics to solve before they can defeat us. Let me remind you that SA has a strong formidable special forces called the recce whose weapons are unknown. They are a force on their own independent from our armies and they have a good track record and probably the best in the continent. They fear nobody but God and were once ranked on the top five of the best special forces in the world. Make no mistake don't rule our recces out, they might surprise you.

America whose intelligence agencies could not even detect and sense when the danger was coming, proved to the whole world that no matter how big and powerful a country may be, it does have its own infirmities. That story of David and Goliath in the bible is not just a tale but reality. South Africa is a small nation and surely any country that exchanges fire with us, no matter how big it is, even if we lost, that country will have some serious casualty to account. When I was in the military, I was always taught and reminded that numbers in war do not matter, what matters is the efficiency of weapon, art of war, musketery and fitness and infact large numbers only bring confusion and disorganisation. Our soldiers are trained to operate on their own, especially our paratroopers, that is why we are not secretive about our army because it will be very difficult to assess our strength. Knowing about our hardware does not put you in a better position to defeat us.

agaugust: andrewza you have a serious problem i am sorry to say, i dont mean to insult you but your post is becoming annoying, dont be F00lish please, i respect you but you need to stop posting nonsense about US NAVY STEALTH WARSHIPS here.

the ship i posted as frigate is USS independence NOT a prototype, its a fully commissioned american warship since january 16th 2010.

confirm its google weblink : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Independence_%28LCS-2%29

a whole wikipedia page gives full details of this great american warship that your south african navy cannot even try fight against.

do you think before you post ? our american USS independence is bigger than your south african valour frigate ! or you need eye glasses ?

deadly missiles are on the US NAVY ship and the best advanced electronic warfare ECM in the world. you have problem with the word frigate, a frigate is a warship that can do a lethal sea combat against big ships, not because they name is a frigate, its the capability it has on the ocean that makes a warship a frigate. let me quote wikipedia english definition for you below...and say thank you to me for helping you to learn

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A frigate (pron.: /ˈfrɪɡɨt/) is any of several types of warship, the term having been used for ships of various sizes and roles over the last few centuries.

USS independence is a frigate, a corvette and a littoral combat ship all at the same time, its only a matter of what english word you like to use. taiwan wants to buy american littoral warships to replace taiwan's knox frigates. is taiwan's navy s.tupid to use weaker ships to replace a frigate for defence against threat from china ? are you thinking at all andrewza or you drink alcohol today my brother ?


littoral combat ship is just a new language the americans use to define warships of different sizes and various weapons that we want to keep close to our coastal ocean to defend america from direct enemy attacks. english language is your problem andrewza, and i have helped you to learn new naval language definitions, and more education for you below....


Corvettes are fast (around 25 knots or better), well-armed ships that displace between 700 and 2000 tons. A corvette is generally not intended for extended ocean-going operations, and is best suited for regional operations. Corvettes are generally the smallest platforms capable of accommodating the sensors, weapons, and combat systems needed to operate in a medium threat environment.

Corvettes are sometimes referred to as light frigates (FFLs).

It can be assumed that the hull design for a corvette and that of an offshore patrol vessel are very similar. The differences will be in propulsion and outfitting. Corvettes will have higher speed and therefore less endurance and range than OPV, much greater armament, and less space for provisions and habitability.

weblink source for english language definitions above :

http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistan-navy/33514-what-difference-between-frigate-destroyer.html#ixzz2LEAybsbK


america has many different types, shapes, and various sizes of those stealth ships i posted and some have 45 anti-ship missiles to fire in one minute and sink all those slow speed south african navy poor stealth paint pangolo puff puff frigate warships you are boasting about plus all your new submarines roasted like chicken by the great american navy new warships in 5 minutes.

you really annoy me and your credibility is flushed into the toilet with that nonsense post you made here. i will educate you about english language meaning of frigate, corvette, OPV because it confuses you south africans all the time. before i school you, just google internet data of the ship for you to see how you much nonsense you wrote by calling south african 121m warship a frigate and a bigger american 127m warship is not a frigate, you are a careless man andrewza, no insult intended, you just very careless with your posts and commants about US NAVY WARSHIPS and their superior power over south african navy warships.

south african navy wants to roasted, somebody help me warn them.

snydergp: Like I said it remains a prototype.

Go talk that crap to a 50 year old retard mr analyst, american, politician or whateva u call ur lying self.

andrewza: The lCS are not frigats and are more over sized over pricesd Gun boats. And no point has USN called them frigats because they not. It a LCS and in a straight on fight will losse to any stealth frigat or even corvet such has the great visby.

Msauza: Pap is a staple food of South Africa and is made from maze, we often change it with pasta, macaroni, spaghetti and noodles and mince. Rice is well our staple food.