₦airaland Forum

souldust: i think ethiopia should allow egypt to have their water. Ethiopia has other options but Egypt has the nile only. If electricity is ethiopia's problem, i think Egypt can help them finance a nuclear power plant. I understand it is highly unfair to have associated the River to egypt only all these while but we just have to be fair here

There is nothing egpyt can do to stop the dame. Distance and logists means that even though egyt has a larger air force only a fracstion could even make the trip(and that is with sudan helping and midair refueling. That fracstion will be up against su27s. Egpyt could try covert or terrost attack but that would not be easy.

Though they are now at talks to discus the issue. Hope fully a compromise can be reached.

Henry120: Even though this question is directed at me, @andrew, has answered it brilliantly. Just to add, to what @andrew has already said



"@henry what do you think the Nigerian Armed Forces be concerned with at the moment?"

The biggest concerns for nigeria at the moment are terrorism, piracy and peace keeping. However, terrorism comes top. We pasted images of the graduation of nigerian army RRI(regular recruit intake) 69 / navy NNBTS( nigerian navy basic training school) graduands a few days back. In the papers yesterday, all 3000 of those men would have to undergo another round of 6 weeks counter-terrorism/ insurgency training, in kachia or kantagora. terrorism is our single biggest threat.




"As for me, i think we should limit what we buy from outside to just things we need urgently and take our time to build what we need in a bit distant future".

I do agree with you, and same with @andrewza. We can produce our basic APC's. However proforce and the south african subsidiary in nigeria cannot/ would not meet local demand. There still would be a case for importation of mraps from abroad.

Quite a large number of gunboats used by the nigerian army amphibious forces and the navy are manufactured right here in nigeria by modant defence, based in port-harcourt.

However as a developing country, we still have to import a considerable number of hardware as local companies might not be able to produce the crafts in the specs nigeria needs or the quantity.

*i beg to differ with @andrewza, as regards the use of hilux pick-up trucks. Pick-up trucks have a place in contemporary counter-insurgency operations. More so in a developing country like nigeria, even the united states filed pick-up trucks in irag, mounted browning HMG's.

My grouse is the ratio of hilux trucks to otokars or VBL scout cars, and the sort of ballistic protection they provide. If the ratio of pick-up trucks in nigeria is 4 trucks : 2 otokars, no problem with that. If the army can get up-armoured proforce AFV's just as the police does, good.

There is a role for pickups. They light, easy to transport, easy to maintain, cheap and non miltary in apearance.
Technacly the hummer of the usa is no better than the land rover of uk, g-wagons of germany, toyat of nigeria or land cruser of SA.

My compliant is numbers. Nigeria does not have enough APCs and way to few IFV. Only 47BTR3s that is enough for 1 battlion.

paniki: My last comment in this thread was on page 200 and something, it's now approaching page 400. I'm lost for words.

A lot of it was spam. A lot.

[quote author=Warri _Pikin].......for starters, only gaynaians bear such awful names based on weekdays

Besides, andrewza, go see all your posts, it is obvious you are a south african.A typical South African isn't jealous of Nigeria and they don't lose sleep over the title of Nigeria- "giant of Africa". Only gaynaians agonize over that title, which was more about the population size than economy of Nigeria.

A typical South African actually feel SA is way much better than Nigeria and does not wish to be a Nigerian, nor copy Nigerian ways of speaking or mannerism. South africans usually don't worry about comparing power or roads in Nigeria, unless a Nigerian provokes them to that topic.

But Ghanaians can only look forward to reaching the infrastructure level of Nigeria.For Ghana to feel they are making progress,their yardstick is Nigeria! If they can build a road similar to one in Nigeria or can build an airport that resembles the one in Nigeria,then Ghana has achieved! Ghanaians focus on being like Nigerians and everything has to be done the Nigerians way.See their movie industry or music,it's almost as though they are making the movies or music so it will please Nigerians! Ghanians lack foresight and innovation and depend on Nigerians for both, so they continue to play second fiddle to Nigeria.That is precisely the reason why the average Nigerian looks down on Gaynianas as fake and hungry people. [/quote]What I mean is, is there econmy based on nigeria, yes with out a doubt they make money of nigeria and vice versa but are the depented?


Note this is a qustion I I have not rescherd the econmy of ghana.

Henry120: Spot-light on made in nigeria, gunboats and military armoured transport crafts

Nigeria has some nice gun boats. What the story on the transport boat (second from the bottom)

souldust: @henry what do you think the Nigerian Armed Forces be concerned with at the moment?

As for me, i think we should limit what we buy from outside to just things we need urgently and take our time to build what we need in a bit distant future.

In this way, we keep so much money from going out to create jobs in other parts of the world, we give our scientists the opportunity to develop themselves intellectually, we can give our fresh university graduates an industry to work in, we have products we can sell abroad to earn foreign exchange, we can become confident in ourselves that at least, we are capable of something sublime

cointer insurgency and anti terrorism and peace keeping is nigerias big focus and that needs light vechiels such has mraps, transport helcopters, survalance and comuncastion sytems and small boats and ships for the navy

those light vechels can be built local, wetger a local desghin or licsend producstion, helcopters need to be purchesd same with the high end survalnce and comms sytems. the navy is intrising, yes nigeria can build boats and maybe even small ships but will still need a lot of out side help.

you all so got to look at cost, some time the price of local gear is not worth it. and nigerias defense industry is just not larg enough to support the milltary alone. best thing is to partner with other nastions. case in point is the poiliec getting sa mraps, the mraps are made in nigeria but still uses partes built in sa. win win, both get jobs, sa makes money due to sales nigeria saves money.

all so buying forghin but useing local parts or gaining the abliety to support the product localy is importaned. you dont want to be egpt. strongest army but dependet on the us for a few vital componts. basicaly they being held hostage.

nigeria needs mor APC and IFV, going to war with toyat hiluxs is not a good idea. more cobras would be best, better if you could build the cobra local.

http://itweb.co.za/mobilesite/defenceweb/home/item_id-30952/

Sadc training course host by south africa.

all4naija: Has Nigeria made any new weapons purchase lately? I think with the insurgent problem in the country the government should be making huge military procurement by now.

Boats, mraps and other stuff

Nigeria bought R11,748,256.00 worth of milltar hardway from sa last year

10,330,250 was class A. And that was a small year

souldust: i have being on their sites and the only thing they keep saying is that they are the only country that werent colonized.

they also believe they are battle hardened and die hard. I just hope they do not go into today's fight with that blind mentality so that they dont "die hard"

Remind them of italy and how nigerians where part of their UK/SA rescuers

Funny they die like any one else.

Henry120: Ethiopia has a decent state-owned defence industry. However not on the scale as that of nigeria, but quite big.

Both countries employ T-72 tanks, infact nigeria's version is the upgraded Czech T-72, including our vickers tanks.

Nigeria's defence budget, troop numbers, training exercise, motorised and armoured corp are significantly larger than that of ethiopia.

Nigeria has one of africa's largest navies, are only one of just a handful of countries in africa that can launch simultaneous air, land and sea attacks.

The only area where ethiopia has an advantage over nigeria is in fighter jets(not the entire airforce). Their SU-27's. Asides that, nothing else.

How they are constantly rated above nigeria and south africa, leaves me bewildered.

True nigeria defense idustry is far more advance

True. Both are close in enough in force that the diffrence does not matter

Ethyopya army is larger but budget goes to nbigeria. It is masive compaired to ethypya.

Ethypoya does not have a coast line

Ethypyas fighter force is stronger but nigerias air force over all brings more to the tabel


You can thank global fire power for that.

Why the hell do nigerians care what a man or women does in privat.

Do people not remember adultury, sex befor marriage,lust and a host of other activties gay bashing straight men do are all so sins.


Let the one with out sin cast the first stone.

Basicaly you all hypocrital, ignorant, hate filled, uneducted fools.

Peterwins: This is really sad. 2,290MW for a country with a population of about 160M people while Municipalities in South Africa produced 2,400MW.

and the funny thing is that SA has a shortage of power.

http://www.iol.co.za/news/politics/sandf-s-r13bn-secret-fund-1.1352781#.Uch7j_mmjTA

The military spends billions of rand from a special account, but you won’t be told what it’s buying.

Last week, Minister of Finance Pravin Gordhan exempted three years of spending on the Special Defence Account (SDA) from part of the Public Finance Management Act, apparently to make sure the spending stays secret. The three years are from 2010/11 to 2012/13, and involves R13 billion.

The account is for buying weapons and equipment and for funding covert activities.

The Department of Defence would not comment to The Star, referring comment to the National Treasury, which said exemption was an accounting issue.

Treasury spokesman Jabulani Sikhakhane said the introduction in 2010 of new accounting practices meant the SDA would have had to publish separate financial statements, but the activities of its funds “are such that they cannot be disclosed” .

“The exemption allows the Department of Defence time to find a more appropriate solution to the problem,” said Sikhakhane.

“The SDA is not a slush fund. Its funding is appropriated in the Appropriation Act and the SDA is accountable to Parliament for the use of the funds. In addition, the SDA is subject to audit by the Auditor-General,” he said.

A-G reports on the account have not been tabled in Parliament for the past two years due to delays, said the A-G’s office.

The account was set up in terms of the Defence Special Account Act of 1974. The act is a leftover from the apartheid years.

The Department of Defence’s 2010/11 annual report said the account was “to acquire, procure and develop armament and technology”. The A-G has previously described the account as “expenditure and purchases incurred for special defence activities”.

According to the A-G, income is derived from interest received and proceeds from the sale of armament, and money allocated from the vote of the Department of Defence annually.

Budget documents indicate how much money goes into the account, but give only broad indications of what it’s for. It includes, but is not limited to, the spending on the arms deal, the Strategic Defence Procurement Programme. It’s not clear if the full amount is spent each year as, unlike most government accounts, the law allows unspent SDA funds to be rolled over each year.

Defence budgets show that in the seven years from 2008/9 to 2014/15, more than R43bn was allocated to the account. That includes nearly R19bn due to go in over the next three years.

During 2012/13, a R5.26bn deposit will include R2.3bn for landward defence and R1.8bn for air defence.

The transfers to the account are listed as “acquisition and upgrading of main weapon systems and technology”, except for R421 million for “executing defence intelligence activities”.

In 2008/09, at least 15 percent of the R8bn transferred to the account was for unspecified operating costs, about a third was for the arms deal but nearly half was unspecified other “procurement”.

MP David Maynier, the DA’s defence spokesman, has “serious reservations” about the account. He said money was channelled through it for “a wide variety of purposes, including capital acquisition projects, that should not, for the most part, be kept secret”.

He said it was used to hide money from Parliament, with about R1.3bn apparently “warehoused” in it “despite the Defence Department pleading poverty”.

Maynier said there was “absolutely no accounting to Parliament” on how the money was spent. “The only comfort is that the Auditor-General conducts an annual audit of the Special Defence Account,” he said.

“My research shows that between 1999 and 2009 nearly R73bn was channelled through the Special Defence Account,” he said, adding that less than 2 percent of that was for so-called sensitive projects.

tomakint: You are number 1 on the list of birds I am talking to

Witch indians, they just has tribal has africa so you can not lump them togeter

Horus: The article do not answer to the question: Are they going to build Made-in-Nigeria vehicles?, yes or no?

Jalal said that the proposed launching of Made-in- Nigeria vehicles in 2017 was no longer realistic due to unfavourable policy that encouraged vehicle importation to the detriment of production.

[quote author=Warri _Pikin]Another hateful Gaynaian. If Nigeria closes her economy to ghana, that country will collapse like a pack of cards.[/quote]why do you assume that

[quote author=Coma_Berenices]Oh, that's the UCT/World Bank woman. Surprised she'd get into politics. Guess that's what politics is about - manipulation. Even if you don't get involved, you will still be affected. So maybe the best thing to do is to vote and make the best-considered choice you can make. That way, there will be a degree of control.

I don't think the politicians in Africa will mature democracy. It's the people that can do that. Assuming there's no cheating at the ballot box.[/quote]Yes it is a surprise, her reason is that she is fed up with promises and wants action.

SA is very democratic, just the choices generally seem week you basically got no good options.

[quote author=Coma_Berenices]But South Africa's always had lots of parties? It's just that the ruling party's been strong?[/quote]this is a new one, a lot of the small parties in SA just waste space on the paper. I mean there is the dagger party that goal is to legalize weed.


This party because of it's leader and open support from desmond tutu may draw away a lot of those ANC votes. The stronger the opposition the better, has it stands now the ANC is a dictor of the majority.

and on topic
http://www.defenceweb.co.za/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=30933:sandf-not-neglecting-its-environmental-responsibilities&catid=55:SANDF&Itemid=108

The SA National Defence Force (SANDF), faced with ever increasing demands for its services in the face of tight budgets, is not neglecting its environmental responsibilities.

As one of the largest land users in South Africa, the SANDF has custodianship over about 420 000 ha, the majority of it for training purposes, such as the SA Army Combat Training Centre at Lohathla in the Northern Cape and the SA Air Force bombing range at Roodewal in Limpopo. These and other training areas are home to many species of fauna and flora as well as, in some instances, buildings and other structures of historical and cultural value.

The Environmental Services sub-department in the SANDF Logistics Division has the overall task of ensuring proper environmental practices are in place not only on training grounds but also at bases.

Integrated Training Area Management (ITAM) aims to enhance the SANDF’s ability to sustain long term, cost effective training by implementing sound management practices for land, maritime and aerial ranges to ensure their continued use and minimise environmental damage.

“To ensure this balance is met, the negative impacts of military activities are managed by way of ecological management measures including wildlife and veld management, effective zoning of training areas and land rehabilitation,” SANDF head of communications, Siphiwe Dlamini, said.

With wildlife common on many training grounds and ranges, including Roodewal; AFB Overberg in the Western Cape; Wallmannsthal north of Pretoria and the Hoedspruit and Makhado air force bases in Limpopo, the SANDF’s conservation corps’ officers and enlisted personnel have no shortage of work.

While wildlife is not listed as an asset on the SANDF register, it is utilised to perform tasks which would otherwise further deplete an already tight budget. As an example antelope and buck assist in keeping vegetation growth to acceptable levels without having to resort to veld management including controlled burning. This cuts down fire danger which is exacerbated by the use of live ammunition and flares during exercises.

When wildlife populations grow and exceed the carrying capacity of specific areas, scientific surveys are undertaken and extraneous animals removed to ensure harmony of growth, both as far as vegetation and wildlife is concerned.

“Overall, when it comes to conservation we do more than our bit,” said Captain (SAN) Adri Liebenberg, SANDF Environmental Services senior staff officer.

The SANDF’s Base Environmental Management (BEM) system aims to sustainably manage military resources needed to provide cost effective support and equipment. This entails proper management of buildings, responsible water and energy use, integrated waste management as well as ensuring cultural and historical resources are properly maintained.

One example of this is Operation Vuselela, a joint venture with the Department of Water and Environmental Affairs’ Working for Water programme. It provides work for military veterans on military properties where they remove alien and invasive vegetation.

The military has also collaborated with the SA National Biodiversity Institute in localised programmes to remove the South American pom-pom weed from military bases and roads entering them in Gauteng, North West, Free State and KwaZulu-Natal.

Environment for Operations (ECOps) aims to ensure adverse effects of military activities on the general environment are avoided or mitigated throughout any specific operations. This has seen an Environmental Services conservation officer deployed on certain continental and in-country operations to ensure environmental concerns are addressed from the earliest stages of planning.

“By doing this the environmental management concept becomes fundamental to decision making in both exercises and operations,” Dlamini said.

The 35-strong corps of environment and conservation officers allocated to Environmental Services is also very much hands-on when it comes to environmental education and awareness. Regular workshops are staged on bases to stress the importance of saving particularly water and energy as well as cutting down on waste, from household and barracks level through to offices.

This has seen spin-offs involving communities adjacent to military bases where the recycle and re-use mantra has gone further than those in uniform.

Environmental Services has also worked with a US Army team to compile a management manual for live firing areas. Liebenberg sees this as a compliment to the SANDF’s environmental expertise.

“We are only a small cog in the overall military machine but that we are still operational is tribute to those in overall command who recognise the need for effective environmental management,” she said.

SA has a new political party

http://www.dailymaverick.co.za/article/2013-06-24-agang-launch-what-south-africans-say/#.UchXCPmmjTA

Thousands of people gathered at the Tshwane Events Centre on Saturday to celebrate the launch of South Africa’s newest political party, Agang SA, founded by Dr. Mamphela Ramphele. Here’s what some of them had to say about it. By JESSICA EATON.

Two hours before Mamphela Ramphele was due to take the stage at the Tswane Events Center to launch Agang officially, thousands gathered on the lawns and bleachers. Shading their faces from the blazing sun with party paraphernalia and South African flags, fans from as far as Bloemfontein and Kimberley waited in anticipation to hear more about the country’s newest political party.

It became clear, speaking to individuals in the crowd, that dissatisfaction and disappointment with the existing political options had attracted many in Saturday’s audience – people who had come in search of plans, not promises. South Africans, tired of lofty liberation language and a focus on the past, had come to support a woman with an agenda for the future.

After Archbishop Emeritus Desmond Tutu had expressed his support for Agang on Friday, many were curious to find out if the new party had already attracted any other household names to its fledgling structures. While there were no other big names unveiled by Ramphele, it was clear that she had already won over many of the South Africans in attendance.

Here’s what a handful of those present, including some Agang volunteers, told Daily Maverick.

Desmond Moeng, Agang SA volunteer

“I decided to get involved because Mamphele says 20 years is too long; you can’t take 20 years to change South Africa to be what it can be. South Africa has recourses - so many resources - so why should we always give them away? Why are those people in government just eating our money? We pay taxes, but they take the money. What are they doing with it? The education system - they keep on saying it’s better, but then they have just reduced the pass rate to 30%. That is not better. Agang is going to focus more on health, on education, on the police services, and as I say, 20 years is too long. Someone who is going to vote for the ruling party as a young person – well, I would classify that person as something else. Someone who doesn’t understand what the politics are and what the government should be doing.”

Onida Peter, Agang volunteer

“I’m only 17… I am here to hear Dr. Ramphele’s speech because I really admire her. I admire her charisma and her courage. You know how most of the people who actually fought in Apartheid are very quiet now, but she is very out there; she is speaking for us, and that’s why I came. I love the fact that she is a woman - it shows so much courage. Our Cabinet is full of males. This is actually quite different from most other party rallies, because it is a great mixture of different kinds of people, different races and different age groups and different gender lines. That’s what is really nice.”

Bukeke Mhqaqa, Agang SA supporter

“I want to join Agang. Agang is a Sotho word which means ‘build the nation’ or ‘to build’. And let me talk about building the nation: it means it’s time for whoever is a citizen of South Africa. As you can hear or see, people are not happy, and I am one of those who are not happy. It came to a situation where we really needed a change in South Africa. I’m feeling good. I really feel good about everything that is happening. It’s what I really want, it’s what I really need.”

Rachel George, American supporter of Agang SA

“I’m here with my friend Karabo Motsola, who is the daughter of Moeketse Motsola. He is involved in the party. What I hope to see is what I have already seen: a lot of general excitement from young people about the foundation of the party and lots of fun singing and dancing, of course…I think I’m excited about another option for South Africans, just being able to have an alternative to what’s already there and to the corruption and difficulty of the government we currently have. I think giving people a choice is what allows for a true democracy.”

Rajiv Sahadeo, Agang SA supporter

“I hope to hear her plans for all the promises she made, because those promises are promises we have all been crying for. And I hope that there are plans behind the promises to prove that she is doing something real, not like other politicians have been doing.” DM

Read more:

agaugust: i am surprised about questions on the stealth capacity of such a clearly clutter free vessel, its as free as many modern stealth ships. even a one-eyed half-blind man will see the well engineered clutter free design.

quote from beegeagle on its stealth :


"This was designed in Germany while the actual construction work took place at the Nautica Nova Shipyards in Malaysia. Stealth technology has as much to do with the angles as with radar-absorbing construction materials and ‘obscured’ components which leave a pronounced heat signature. Look how ‘clean and free of clutter’ she is. "

source, try read the full page ;

http://beegeagle./2013/06/20/nns-zaria-p176-a-suncraft-sea-eagle-mk-ii-stealth-offshore-patrol-craft/

its like asking if an aircraft with flaming afterburner is jet engined, propellers dont have afterburners for sure.

nigeria was to build the craft locally on joint venture basis with suncraft malaysia, but they did not want to transfer the technology to us, so nigeria turned to china state shipbuilding corporation for joint venture to build 70% of the Type 056 stealth warship locally in lagos. china has agreed to transfer stealth ship building technology to nigeria.

It can be as clutter fee has you want and have radar ansorbing matrial and paint. That diesghin will be picked up by a milltary graded radar with easy. It may fool a civlian navifastion radar.

[quote author=Coma_Berenices]What I find interesting about Kenya is that they used to be one of the most corrupt nations in Africa. They still are corrupt, but they have worked hard on it. They are going places.[/quote]I am impressed with ethiopia they have done a lot with there food and starvation problem, the barcode joke no longer works with them. Not to forget botswana if they had South Africa's resources and population they would be a global power

agaugust: easy answer to your questions....

click and read http://beegeagle./2013/06/20/nns-zaria-p176-a-suncraft-sea-eagle-mk-ii-stealth-offshore-patrol-craft/

where do you think i got the photo from.

sweden called the S-tank a tank even though it was a tank destroyer, when we bought the frigates the navy told parliament they were corvettes, germany has frigates larger more capable than destroyers. Just because you say it is a duck does not mean it is a duck

[quote author=Coma_Berenices]The hidden truth - Kenya is beautiful ![/quote]i am white and agree with you

NaijaPikinGidi: What is the problem with having little or no communication coming out of there? The commanders on ground have a strategy and clear objective of disabling the information channels open to BH. Mil-intel has been effective in this regard. Are you aware that locals have now boldly been providing the army with word of mouth intel about BH. This wasn't possible before now. A army in control of battlefield information always has the upper hand ... with the ability to take enemies on by suprise. Please don't go into what you don't know about. What is the root cause of the BH insurgency? From what I know they are no longer potent groups! While BH is formally an illegal group MEND is not currently an armed group! So for all you may know the army has succeeded in lesser time than was projected.

Even Malema and the AWB are allowed to open their mouths! Freedom of speech does not extend to freedom of violence. MEND can talk but it ends at talk. Period.

Why would they instil fear outside of the battleground? You under-rate the battle-harden Nigerian Army at your own risk. It is not usually for me to speak on certain things, I am usually restrained. But check for what you can find online.

I have a dossier on SA. I know info that is witheld, but I can't just spew it. A lot may be sensitive. I only play around with the low sensitive, everyday civilian stuff. So when you talk of poverty I know what's happening that side. Do you know the number of shack settlements in South Africa? Do you know that it is only South Africa I know of that have detached purpose-made walless toilets? Why have toilets without a single wall? What can be left of a person's dignity after sitting under rain and sunshine just to pass feaces/shit in public view? Yet it is currently the biggest economy in Africa with a lower population profile than than Nigeria?

It means all reports are one sided, we will not know if say the army is setting up roadblocks to extort people, shooting civilians extra extra. There is no transparency, america lets media accompany them into the field france and israel release images they film them self, sa gives reports and updates. transparency is needed remember BH does not need the military to do illegal activity only get people to think that, witch they can do since media can not verify any sides reports. sometimes secrecy is counter productive.

yes but AWB and malema don't threaten the government.

i am not afraid of your military.

at least they have walls
[img]http://img1.nairaland.com/attachments/1053102_63413eab0ff55269b0551bb7fa4d1d04_jpg6791dfb2b2b9d5664d5c3a9478ff87c9[/img]
and are you saying you have secret SA documents or data that i don't, either way you either a fool or lying

http://mg.co.za/article/2013-06-21-00-spy-wars-south-africa-is-not-innocent

South Africa spies on visiting foreign officials and diplomats to gain the advantage in negotiations, just as Britain spied on South African delegations to multi­lateral events, and as does every other country with the ability to do so.

The Guardian revealed earlier this week that South African politicians and senior officials were spied on and bugged by Britain during the G20 summit in London in 2009.

And, much like the United States, South Africa spies on its own citizens illegally, and continues to do so despite knowing the spying cannot be justified under the Constitution. That includes listening in on the conversations had by specific people, supposedly individuals who require watching, but also extends to the bulk harvesting of information about law-abiding citizens – with little to nothing in the way of oversight or assurances that the data will not be misused, and a history of exactly such misuse.



At the heart of the system of surveillance in South Africa is the secretive National Communication Centre (NCC), which remains largely unregulated and free of oversight, while Parliament continues to fret about what its legal status should be.

Unlike the cases in Britain and the US, however, such spying in South Africa was not exposed by a whistle-blower or on the basis of leaked documents, but through official, public government documents that arose from the last major crisis of confidence in the methods and actions of intelligence agencies.

Virtually everything that governs the workings of the South African spy agencies is secret: their finances, audits relating to those finances, the rules under which they operate, oversight reports on whether they comply with such rules, and details on what it is they actually do. That makes it impossible to be sure exactly how much surveillance is conducted of foreign diplomats and ordinary citizens, or how much of that surveillance is unjustifiable.

Yet especially egregious cases of abuse, particularly what is still referred to as "the intelligence crisis of 2005-2006", have, over the years, provided rare glimpses into the world of telephone interception and counter-intelligence – glimpses that show South Africa is not in a position to object too vociferously to British attempts to spy on government ­ministers, or to claim the moral high ground on America's dragnet surveillance techniques.

Turbulent years
Ronnie Kasrils is better placed than most to know that: He was intelligence minister for four of the more turbulent years of South Africa's spy apparatus, from 2004 to 2008, and is now a prominent critic of laws around secrecy and spying.

His insider knowledge also makes it illegal for him to respond directly to, say, questions on the type of ­telephone interception conducted in South Africa. However, he can speak generally.

"Let me say this to you," Kasrils said this week, "should anybody be surprised, anywhere in the world … that with the enormous technological ability that any developed country has today, would you be surprised about revelations relating to prying into foreign countries, into one's own citizens, never mind foreign citizens? The ability is there."

It is a sentiment often repeated by a wide array of former intelligence officers, policymakers and those who have access to briefings produced on the basis of telephone intercepts: Of course South Africa uses the abilities at its disposal.

"We used to do it. We still do it. It would be a scandal if we didn't do it," said a former intelligence operative.

A former reviewer of intelligence protocols said: "Are we spying on neighbouring states? Of course we are spying on neighbouring states."

Constitutional provisions
What fewer people are willing to speak about is the techniques used, including dragnet-style monitoring of wide swathes of the communication between citizens in South Africa.

At the centre of that monitoring is the NCC, a central facility originally intended to intercept foreign traffic (such as satellite communication), but which also engages in ill-defined "environmental scanning", and apparently routinely analyses communications to establish the ­personal networks of individuals.

The NCC operates outside the law and has, in the past, done so with the assumption that it need not comply with constitutional provisions to protect privacy and dignity, which can be infringed only when reasonable and justifiable.

Environment scanning has benign application, as shown by a report into the recent furore around the landing of a private plane at the Waterkloof Air Force Base, for the convenience of guests to a wedding in the well-connected Gupta family.

In that case, the government said, the State Security Agency conducted analysis of freely available information, such as comments on phone-in radio shows and on social media, to determine how the public felt about the controversy.

But it also entails "random monitoring of signals", as defined in one review of the lack of rules around the NCC, "through its bulk monitoring capability".

Within the intelligence community, legend has it that the NCC is capable of monitoring every phone call made within South Africa, and of automatically flagging those in which pre-selected keywords occur.

Outside experts concur that monitoring would not only be possible, but easy. By law, communication providers must put in place infrastructure to allow monitoring of traffic on their networks, at their own cost. But those involved in the complex field of language recognition say South Africa's bewildering array of languages and accents, combined with the inevitable interference on telephone lines, would make it very hard to monitor all telephone ­conversations simultaneously for specific words or phrases.

Non-targeted information
Extracting other data is considerably easier.

In a 2008 report on intelligence agencies, a ministerial review committee established by Kasrils disclosed that he, as then minister of intelligence, had decreed that "non-targeted information generated by environmental scanning" can only be retained for up to three days "for evaluation and data-mining". In other words, information relating to innocent citizens caught in the dragnet had to be discarded.

But it is not clear that the policy survived Kasrils's departure from the post, or that it was ever implemented, or how it was interpreted.

Thanks to various leaks about similar surveillance in the US, it is now known that the South African government used similar techniques to monitor who phones whom in order to create network diagrams showing the links between individuals. Such links have, in the past, uncovered the sources of leaks from within government structures. South Africa has considerable expertise in that field, and has exported software necessary for the analysis to other countries. That means information on who phones whom can be discarded – but not before data-mining uncovers connections in the data.

"Give me enough metadata [information about communication, but not the actual content of the communication] and I can tell you who is having an affair or is looking for another job," said an expert in network analysis.

Project Avani, the operation uncovered in 2006 in the hoax e-mail saga, started off as environmental scanning before being subverted by what was later found to have been faked e-mails and chat room logs. It did not end before surveillance, both physical and through telephone intercepts, had been conducted of businessmen, journalists and politicians, none of whom was ever found to have engaged in nefarious activities.

Such spying was illegal then and would be illegal today, but is almost certainly still taking place.

Interception
In dealing with intelligence agencies in 2008, the ministerial review group was confronted by spymasters who argued, in Orwellian fashion, that not all interception counts as interception, and that laws meant to restrict the reach of interception cannot be applied to intelligence work.

An earlier task team warned that intelligence agencies still held vestiges of a pre-1994 "culture of non-accountability" and used "a no-holds-barred approach" – but in the same breath argued that operatives should know that it is acceptable to bend the rules to achieve results.

That much was made clear five years ago, in the report commissioned by Kasrils, and controversially made public just as the Mbeki administration was replaced by the Zuma administration. With a dearth of information ever since, it is conceivable that the culture and methods within security agencies have changed. Conceivable, but unlikely.

"We don't know," said Laurie Nathan, an academic with a focus on conflict resolution who was one of the people who drafted the 2008 report. "And we have no way of knowing in the absence of adequate transparency."

But considering the marked shift towards more of a security focus since 2008, Nathan said, the message to spooks is more likely to lean towards getting the job done than to worry about legal niceties.

"The debate [around intelligence] is, to put it crudely, between effectiveness and accountability. The previous minister [of intelligence, Kasrils] emphasised accountability and transparency. The current minister emphasises effectivity."

[img]http://beegeagle.files./2012/08/nns-burutu-p174-usni5-mar11.jpg?w=640[/img]

how is that stealth. it may be small on a Radar screen due to you know being small, but it is taller than a strike craft with that big supper structure and bridge. It is not stealth.

All so it size and armament is closer to a IPV

http://www.citizen.co.za/citizen/content/en/citizen/opinion-columnists?oid=437523&sn=Detail&pid=146826&Part-true--mainly-not

Part true, mainly not

There is solace found in revelling in anxiety about how society is falling apart, especially when we know that it isn’t really.

18 June 2013 | Paul Pereira


In the past fortnight a chain letter detailing the horrid results of 19 years of ANC governance has become an e-mail and social media hit. It even appeared on these pages disguised as a reader’s letter.

It seems to have hit some nerve of how we imagine South Africa, and so it’s worth a look. Here are the anonymous author’s claims and how they measure up:Unemployment is up 60%. Untrue. According to the South African Institute of Race Relations, last year’s broad unemployment rate was 36%, a 15% increase on 1994.

South Africa is the rape capital of the world. True. The SAPS notes that with 128 reported rapes per 100 000 people, our rape prevalence is far and away the worst of 123 countries and territories that report on this.

We’re 140th on a world list of 144 countries for education. True and false. We come 140th and 142nd in maths and science in some tests. But we now have universal education, unlike some others, who may cherry-pick their brightest.

This while the 2011 TIMSS ranking of 45 surveyed countries showed our results improve for the first time since 1995.

We are officially the country with the most car-jackings. False. There is no “official” global base to use, but our car-jackings have fallen 27% these 19 years.

We’re in the top 10 for murder. True, but we were number one in 1994. Since then, murder has fallen 54%.

The rand/dollar exchange rate has gone from R3.41 to R10. True in fact, but false in being laid at the ANC’s door, since this ignores global economic and policy factors over which government has no control. Notes economist Mike Schüssler: “Advanced world currencies are generally stronger than emerging markets.”

The same true and false attaches to ANC responsibility for higher oil prices.

We have the most corrupt government. False. Transparency International scores South Africa as middling with an improved perception for the last three years running.

We have 10 times more people in squatter camps. False. Shack dwelling has fallen by a quarter since 1996, and traditional dwellings by 45%. We build 13 formal houses for every shack erected.

We have 1 000% more illegal immigrants. Maybe, but no one knows, although 100 000 people are repatriated each year.

Our roads, railways, military, police, municipal services, old age homes, hospitals and orphanages are worth nothing anymore. False. All these things, except the military, have seen increased investment these two decades, sometimes dramatically.

The SANDF is a laughing stock. False. Although smaller than under apartheid, the army acquitted itself well in recent Central African Republic fighting, inflicting anywhere up to 800 enemy casualties for the loss of 15 dead and 30 wounded.

No other country has more convicted criminals in Parliament. False simply because comparisons don’t exist, but 40 local MPs were guilty in the Travelgate expenses fraud.

A quarter of all schoolgirls are HIV+. False. Schoolgirls aren’t, as such, tested.

Our schoolgirls had 100 000 legal abortions last year. False. The latest figures reported to Parliament are for 2006, with 9 900 abortions among children under 18 years.

NaijaPikinGidi: Hey Mr. AndrewZA, you found your way here? Well, take note that this is not a strictly military thread and all views and comments are welcome as long as there's supporting proof. The debates here are definitely open-ended. However, most of your comments above have been thoroughly dealt with in the thread that got derailed by CraigB. So contrary to your views here about the Nigerian Army it is clear that they are certainly a potent force ... since it took them less than two weeks into the SoE to dislodge the B.Haram at a time when the world's media was being negative. Equally the MEND surrendered due to fear of the Army and the offer of Amnesty.

If you doubt that mend has been quenched, can you kind tell me where they are? Piracy? Show proof of the number of piracy issues in the Niger Delta recently? You refuse to accept the fact that the Army has handled much more multidimensional Ops internally and externally than most other forces that you can think of including SA. And although the Nigerian Army is not a negative threat it remains a big threat to country's that feel that we have too much influence due to Nigeria's lead role on the continent and sub-region.

I needed to show the images above because no one ever gets to see them ... all they see are nice photos of "pretty" places and faces which gives a false impression of the true situation of life and development in South Africa.

All we hear South Africans talk about are HUGE lies that Nigeria is poor, full of slums, not developed, and so on and so forth ... even without finding out the fact. They even put up very outdated photos of Nigerian cities to back up the lies! Now see the Nigeria we all know below:

Communication coming out of the combat zone is very low, all cell phones are down, anybody with a satellite phone will be arrest. BH is not a military force it only needs to scatter and hide among civilians in villages loyal to them or cross in to other countries. Has long has the root cause of BH remains and they will not be destroyed. MEND agreed to a peace deal but they still around and not all weapons have been returned. I believe they made a threat not to long ago with them basically saying we not gone don't forget your end of the bargain.

i have posted a number of sources on the rise of piracy of the west coast of Africa here is one
http://www.defenceweb.co.za/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=30880:west-africa-piracy-surge-endangering-commodities-shipping&catid=108:maritime-security&Itemid=233

The Nigerian Army has pretty much being doing 2 things peace keeping and anti terrosim not much that installs fear. When was the last divisional sized Armour/mechnised warfare training exersize. And dont say they done in secret done in ssecret where.

The proof and sources for the amount of poor in Nigeria was given to you, you ran away from that or say we are lieing but dont give evdeince to counter the evediance before you.

sheyie2007: you know little, so shut your trap

A typical response but as usual nothing is said to show i am wrong.

So you disagree that troops in pickups are light infantry.

In truth nigeria has only 1 true vehicle for mechanised infantry and that is the BTR3 that nigeria has enough to field 1 batallon.

sure you could use stery(nigeria's local APC is based on these platform) in a mechanised battalion along with your MT-LBs extra, does not change the fact they APCs thus motorised infantry. Nigerias Military would struggle to invade Ghana. You would probably pull it off but would take heavy losses.

How long did it take nigeria to sort out BH, MEAND is not even dealt with and piracy is on the increase. Most of the Nigerian army is set up has light infantry not even motorised but light. this is not a insult but a smart move by the nigerian generals. BH is a small threat to any military and a poor test in seeing if you ready for a real war. Malil was a posibil test but it took so long to deploy there that france had to step in along with Chad. Now that the fight has become a low insty affair nigeria has finally taken charge. So no you not a threat to even cameroon never mind SA, Angola, Algeria, Morocco, Ethiopia, Sudan even current day messed up libya is a bigger threat than nigeria and they just been bombed and had a violent takeover.


Has for posting pics of poor SA remeber Nigeria has more slums, more people in poverty, low level of education, low GDP Lower GDP per capita (and that is not growing nearly as fast) should i go on.