₦airaland Forum

gensteejay:
Boko Haram, slavery, genocide, violence are a part of Islam. Anyone denying those facts is either delusional or ignorant.

No one is denying these facts, gensteejay. What some are acknowledging is that everything has its good and bad, and that disregarding either is stupid, ignorant and detrimental and regressive since it involves not learning from the past, which is what one is meant to do instead of just believing some ancient understanding of old texts and hadiths.

iamdannyfc:
When i said sophist here,i mean teacher of rhetorics.

I'm very complimented. Moreso once you've honoured the bill that I've sent you please.

gensteejay:
Hope you know the term, "unbelievers", in Islam means Christians, Jews, pagans, people that neither worship nor believe in Allah, etc.

That's the thing with basic knowledge in anything. Those who have it tend to think they have understanding when in truth they have none. Mostly, they know they have none so they fabricate and lie.

Below is Q.3:198-200 which specifically references Christians as "People of the Scripture" who believe what "was revealed to them":

And indeed, among the People of the Scripture are those who believe in Allah and what was revealed to you and what was revealed to them, [being] humbly submissive to Allah . They do not exchange the verses of Allah for a small price. Those will have their reward with their Lord. Indeed, Allah is swift in account.

But trust you to think that Allah will reward everyone equally as if those are the same people referred to as unbelievers in Q.4: 55–56. And even if they were, Allah can do what pleases Allah, or not, as far as I'm concerned, since nowhere am I asked to punish anyone in hell.

tintingz:
If he intervene and people all sees it, why can't he do that today?

Perhaps because people can not 'see', in the sense that they lack the ability to understanding and to actually comprehend what they see.

I'm absolutely certain that if I tell you I have evidence "some God told me to take a knife and sacrifice my child to it" you'd call police on my stupid ass!

Kind of makes it a good thing God doesn't intervene today, I think.

tintingz:
Even the medieval Muslims that contributed to science were skeptics as they love the ancient Greeks works and they worked on it but at a point in history the Muslim community had problem with this ideology(as it conflicted their faith) and the era of the Muslim scientists ended.

Sadly, most never heard of the Islamic Golden Age and think its all boko haram.

gensteejay:
Lols. Allah says his will is to subject them to everlasting torment in hell fire. In almost all chapters of Qur'an, Allah says that clearly there.

Simple statements. No spinning or twisting required.

Chapter and verse! Educate me.

iamdannyfc:
I'm not talking about the payment aspect but the approach used in arguement
Anyway, respect!

The approach of sophistry is to lie for payment and I have enough faith in you to pressume you would not arrive at such a conclussion about me without evidence like the bill I sent you for the payment I demanded from you and which I very patiently gratefully respectfully anticipate receiving from you.

gensteejay:
You understand Qur'an and yet you can't quote a single verse from this book you so much understand to support what you said about Jesus Christ's teachings.

You even said those of us that understand Arabic and know Qur'an well are brainwashed and indoctrinated.

But you that aren't brainwashed don't even understand Arabic language let alone being able to read Qur'an.

Lols.

Those who understand the Quran know those who worship God through Jesus will end up where Allah wills.

gensteejay:
That's your own opinion, not what Qur'an says.

You've not answered my question at all.

Quote verses from Qur'an to back your answer. That shows you know what you're talking about.

Without any Quranic verse to back your claim, you've not said anything.

It might indeed not be anything to you, but that is my understanding of my reading of both the Quran, and the Bible, which all Muslims must read for a proper understanding instead of lazily relying on a single verse or hadith or three generations of Muslims and thinking that's it.

gensteejay:
That's not related to this thread.

Besides, Otem calls his piece of literature a book of history and doesn't call himself an all-knowing god.

He doesn't call his book a religious text from an all-knowing god, so one can approach it appropriately by not treating it as the ultimate Truth like Muslims and Christians regard Qur'an and the Bible respectively.

Whether the book is entirely fictional or 50%, 60%, or 100% accurate, that's left for the reader to judge.

Still waiting for your answer to the question above.

The entire point of it is that it is not the facts themself that matter but a proper understanding of what you read and what it promotes you to think and be going forward.

You are here claiming whatever words used in the Quran is instruction that must be believed, obeyed and followed, while failing to apply tests of logic and scrutiny in gaining understanding.

I have answered your question above.

gensteejay:
Interesting. One of the core teachings of Jesus Christ is that people should worship Jehovah (who he calls his father) as God through him (Jesus).

Is that teaching right or wrong?

What does Qur'an say about people that worship Jehovah or Jesus?

What's the ultimate destination of their soul after death if they die in that state of worshipping Jesus or Yahweh?

You once used the word, "archetype", so I would expect you'd understand when John says "Jesus is the archetype of Logos", the Logos itself being the proper understanding of the Word of God, be it that from the Bible or Quran or anywhere, which is what enables one to enter Paradise also referred to by some as the Kingdom of God and the Lord's Tabernacle and heaven where those who worship God will dwell.

But of course that's not the answer you ask for since that's not what you were indoctrinated into believing and you dare not "apply tests of logic and scrutiny to it" because no one has given you permission I suppose.

iamdannyfc:
Erm
Buda, don't get it twisted oo.

Sophist is not a compliment philosphically.

Lol. You are the one claiming I'm a sophists, as in, one who uses rhetoric to acquire payment. That is the reason I am grateful you will honor the bill that I will send you for the money you accused me of sophistry making you pay me.

Please add 20% service charge or tip when you pay, and thank you in advance.

gensteejay:
I'm lying that you're a follower of Jesus? So, who is Jesus Christ to you then?

We know what each of the Bible and Qur'an says about Jesus Christ.

What's your own stance as a person?

Jesus was a teacher of great things worth emulating by the wise.

The wise seek understanding instead of stances.

I followed up my comment, the 'essence of atum', with a decision not to derail that thread because it would have resulted in pages and pages on a thread that was teaching "use your own mind", which is precisely what is being contested here and which just goes to increase my gratitude
for the immense responsibility OtemAtum has taken on for teaching its fundamentals.

If you had used your own mind to decipher the Quran instead of submitting to hadiths and three generations of pious Muslims and Saudi Arabia perhaps you'd have understood different, especially if you had bothered to "apply tests of logic and scrutiny to" what you were reading and studying and practising.

gensteejay:
Lols. The highlighted term alone nullifies all your argument.

Post verses from Qur'an and some haadith to back that claim.

Poor you. You use words like "applying tests of logic and scrutiny", but assume evidence is an hadith.

When anyone dies, be they Muslim, Christian or even devil worshippers, the living put the dead body in a box and cover it in a hole in the earth where it becomes worm food and eventually, dust. Though I'm absolutely certain your 30 years of indoctrination tells you otherwise.

gensteejay:
So says a worshipper of Jesus Christ that can't even read Qur'an in Arabic yet feels he/she knows the religion more than even Muhammad himself. Lols.

The poverty of your argument shows in the fact that you feel the need to misrepresent my position and lie.

gensteejay:
You're really very funny.

I'm sure you know Islam more than Saudi, the founding nation of the religion, hence those fundamental Muslims (who are the real, core Muslims) are also brainwashed and you don't even understand Arabic language.

You even understand the religion more than Muhammad since you're not indoctrinated. Lols.

Very funny. How can you call yourself a Muslim and cherrypick your favorite parts of Qur'an?

You obviously have no idea of the religion you're commenting about.

Better you stick to your worship of Jesus Christ.

Or you can continue joking around on this thread.

I do not call myself a Muslim, since I am not a Muslim, nor do I worship Jesus Christ. But I understand your lack of objectivity.

gensteejay:
Let's test your knowledge about Islam: What does Qur'an say about those people that worship or follow Jesus Christ?

If they die in that state, according to Qur'an, where is their ultimate destination as a worshipper or follower of Jesus Christ (or as a Christian)?

The Quran refers to Jesus Christ as the penultimate Prophet and Messenger of God.

The destination of those who learn from him, as opposed to those you refer to as 'Christians', who sometimes might not be following Jesus despite worshipping him, is the same destination of those who submit to Allah.

gensteejay:
Real Muslims avoid this thread plague. Whenever they see ex-Muslims that have deep knowledge about Islamic concepts, most of them tend to avoid such people since the former Muslims know a lot about Qur'an and Islam generally that can make other rational Muslims start questioning their faith in Allah and his prophet.

These Muslims know that by engaging ex-Muslims like us in discussion, they too could eventually leave the religion (especially the youths).

As a former Muslim, a Muslim can't win an argument about Islamic concepts with me unless they twist and spin things (which is a common practice with them), because I know the religion deeply, understand Arabic, and have various haadith and Islamic books as part of my library.

So, I know what I discuss in detail whenever I choose to argue about Islamic concepts.

Wonder why core Islamic nations kill ex-Muslims? Which cult (religion) will want an apostate going all about, exposing their secrets?

You only know the poisonous version of Islam that was indoctrinated into you for 30 years and that is why many Muslims avoid these threads.

The Islam that most know does not fit your understanding as displayed here, and the superior learning of Islam they have has taught them that engaging in the sort of muck you promote is haram of the first order!

gensteejay:
You don't even understand Arabic and can't read Qur'an, except merely cherrypicking a handful of quranic verses to support your uninformed opinion about a religion you've never practised.

I said that because most of the things you're saying on this thread can only come someone with shallow knowledge about Sharia, Qur'an, and Sunnah.

You can't simply understand Islam like someone like OP that practised (practice against the theoretical knowledge you've) the religion for years or for someone like me that practised it for 30 years before eventually applying tests of logic and scrutiny to it.

You're even a follower of Jesus Christ. Lols and you're commenting about Islam, a religion you've never practised.

You can't even read Qur'an. That's a big joke.

You've no idea about what you've been saying on this thread. It's so glaring.

I'm sure you're merely joking around on this thread.

You don't discuss Islam without citing facts to back your claims from Qur'an and haadith.

You've been merely giving your opinion about Islamic concepts ignorantly. Even Sunni Muslims (Ahlu Sunnah) would laugh at your ignorance on this thread.

Please, stop commenting on a religion you've never practised.

Having practical knowledge about things (especially knowledge of Arabic) is different from merely checking a few things about Islam on Google to argue on Nairaland and cherrypicking few parts from Qur'an to support your ill-informed thoughts about Islam.

No true Muslim cherrypicks few parts of Qur'an and ignore the rest.

You don't even have the aqeedah (creed) required for a (Sunni) Muslim. I guess you need to start from the 6 articles of faith in Islam first because your comments on this thread show you don't even know any of those (hence, your love to cherrypick few parts of Qur'an that appeal to you).

You are absolutely correct that I have not been brainwashed like you were "for 30 years before eventually applying tests of logic and scrutiny to it" just as many are brainwashed into any religion; and correct too that I do not have any experience of practising Islam and give my own opinion of Islamic concepts. But, no, I am not a Christian, since the exact same allegations you say about my understanding of Islam equally apply to that I have of Christianity. That does not negate the fact that I must have some knowledge or I would not be on here discussing, which, even if I just disagree, would inform me.

As I often say, the books, both the Quran and Bible are very big books, and only by closing your eyes could you not admit that there are millions of practising Muslims who can't read at all, not to talk of in Arabic yet you would not say they are any less Muslims, so I think the fact that I actually read the book, albeit in English, must count for some. Still, here are my very limited credentials, just so you know how ignorant I am.

My maternal grandfather was a Muslim apostate, abandoning it for Anglicanism long before my own mother was born because, as he told me, the "Church had a book, while the ile kewu didn't".

My grandfather on my father's side was a Muslim mystic, and by that I mean he mixed Ibilẹ with his Islam. He couldn't read at all, and waved his Quran in incantations like it was a magic wand, but most of his children, my father included, were apostates just so they could go to the school that the Church that had books had built. As it was at the time, this grandfather had many wives and so some are Muslims who got their hands on the Quran and read it. Amongst them is the Chief Imam, my uncle.

As you can see, my experience, unless I add the fact that most of my village people are Muslims, is very limited and not based on years of brainwashing and indoctrination that makes some think they must submit to three generations of pious Muslims, so of course you must say, 'who is buda to assume to use the brain that the Almighty Allah placed inside buda's head to reason and apply test of logic and scrutiny to Islam'? I expect no less from those dwelling in Plato's Cave, after all, how can a person qualify to comment based on their own reading of the book and study of Islam and applying tests of logic and scrutiny to their reading and study from the start?

Thankfully, I at least know that neither practise, gensteejay, nor 30 years of religious indoctrination qualify one to comment on Islam. The last time I checked the qualification was:

ašhadu ʾan lā ʾilāha ʾilla -llāhu, wa-ʾašhadu ʾanna muḥammadan rasūlu -llāhi

iamdannyfc:
They are intelligent, learned, wise and have experience of different culture (widely travelled).

But socrates doen't like their way expecially in their use of rhetorics ( because they are very good i.e expert in the art of rhetorics )

He doesn't like them not because they are good in rhetorics but because they mostly employ it in an argument/dialogue instead of its proper use i.e in public speaking.

Which implies that they tend to be persuasive in an arguement rather than adhering strictly to logic in expectation to see where it leads to.
so he believe they are not in for the Truth in an arguement but to persuade(using rhetorics).

Nevertheless, he respect them for their intelligence, oratory, wisdom and vast experience anyway.

buda is guilty as charged!

It is Socrates critique of sophism that has taught me to use the tools at my disposal to speak in this very public forum called Nairaland so that the public, like you, can decide to honor the invoice I send you for writing it.

Thanks in advance.

basilico:
Entrapment. Enough said. Happens all the time .

Joseph Misfud met with George Papadopoulos and told him that Russians had junk on Hillary.
GP was then scheduled to meet with Australian diplomat in London in April 2016 a Mr Downer who claimed that GP told him Russians had dirt on Hillary.
Then Strzock opened a counter intelligence on July 29th 2016.
Misfud was sent by FBI to meet with GP, then Downer was to extract that info and hand it over to FBI so they could legally start an investigation. Note Downer as an Aussie Minister funneled 25m dollars to Clinton Foundation.
Entrapment.

I take it all this was in the newspaper and no further evidence was presented before the judge to compel him to hand down such a heavy sentence and the accused and her defense kept silent too, right?

Xmuslim:
The real Islam is not what its philosophers and mystics have inferred but what is in the Qur’an and that is the Islam of the fundamentalist and the terrorist.

The real Islam is the Islam that abuses women, allows men to beat their wives, imposes penalty tax on religious minorities, wants to dominate the world by subduing all non-Muslims, calls for Jihad, and killing of non-believers until Islam becomes the only dominant religion of the World.

My rejection of Islam is not based on the bad deeds of the Muslims but on the bad teachings of its holy book and on the bad deeds of its founder

Copied and concur

You objection to Islam is based on your ignorance of what its philosophers and mystics have inferred, and the adoption of views imposed upon you by those who are more ignorant about Islam.

Its like a claiming boko haram is Islam despite all the evidence that Islam proclaims boko halal.

Xmuslim:
you have the freedom to spew your ignorance anywhere. Just know that this is my last response to you. I don't have time to waste. Even the muslims will be laughing at your ignorance .

I didn't know you are this dumb . Defending what you know almost nothing about. You want to reform Islam. Wtf

Islam is to live in 'submission' to the will of Allah, and our understanding of the Will of Allah and how we submit, like everything else, goes through transformations because people use their own brains and their own eyes and develop and grow instead of just submitting to three generations of so called pious Muslims like you were taught to do.

Please know that I do not write for your response or your time since you are not the only one reading here.

Xmuslim:
With all due respect, kindly leave my thread. You are ignorant about what you are defending. Thank you

With no respect at all, no, I will not leave your thread so you can spew your ignorance unchallenged and unwillingly to learn.

I will remain here in your thread challenging you when I feel like so those who may may learn.

basilico:
But that didn’t stop
them from accusing her in the press of
being a Russian spy, which she was
not. And it didn’t stop the judge from
giving her three times the maximum
sentence called for by the sentencing
guidelines.

What you are claiming here is that the judge sentenced her severely for accusations in the paper and not for evidence presented before the judge and her by the prosecutor which she and her lawyer had the opportunity to contest and oppose.

Does that sound American to you?

Kopfschmerzenmd:
Welcome back brudah!!! How are you and yours holding up?

You seem to know him. What's his old moniker?

Canny19:
Hello peeps, it's been a week since I got to Canada and the village people I left behind are already saying that I look fresher: I bet they are just interested in inflating my ego so I can remember them when I start earning dollars... They have jonzed though!

I have been a law abiding Permanent Resident by deciding to comply with the 14 days quarantine order. I even got a call from a public health official today asking me if I have any flu like symptoms, covid got nothing on me cos my immune system is above par.

Nothing interesting has happened since I arrived cos there's little one can do in quarantine. The weather is getting warmer or should I say I'm getting acclimatized to the cold weather. Against all odds I have started enjoying doing the dishes because of the hot water that runs in the kitchen and everywhere else.

I'm currently putting finishing touches to my resume in order to hit the job market. It's money I came here to make and not to count skyscrapers.

Cheers!

And you will make plenty money amen, considering this good thread of yours, but you must never forget to inform us bush people of your experiences now you are there please so we don't do village on you.

SonofLincoln:
I am a product of Uptown Section of Chicago and knowing Chicago is the Numero Uno City in the State of Illinois which is the Land of Lincoln, take your guess from there.

Sorry, but I shan't guess, and you may answer or not, your choice. Guessing is the reason some say lucas is Abbey.

Look on the bright side, wirinet. We all know that not only Russia will meddle in the forthcoming election and most of them not for trumps advantage, and fortunately, those disadvantaged will continue to cover their eyes and deny Russian collusion, thankfully.

Except we all know their eyes will open to see collusion everywhere after they've lost.

SonofLincoln:
You are spot on Buddha.

I can understand why people would have multiple monickers. If I were banned I'd probably have one too since not having one means one is silenced, but I've only once been banned for three days for allegedly calling the mods out when in fact I was calling out despots.

What was your old monicker? SonofLincoln is new.

Nice. And keep practising.