₦airaland Forum

OLAADEGBU: Tithe is 10% of your income. If you don't discipline yourself in giving your tithe how do you want to prove to me that you can give your 100% when needed? The proof is that when you realise that God owns us and all we have nothing will be too big to give God. We will then be able to give God the best and not the rest.

@the bolded lies the problem of church leadership obsession with tithes. Why should I or anybody prove anything to you? Did you partake of the suffering on the cross for me and other children of God? Why should you vet any Christian's giving? If 1% is what folks can do, let them be. Paul didn't need a calculator to know the percentage Macedonian Christians gave. He knew it was beyond His brief and mandate. You need to realise this too.

Also, Tithe isn't 10% of any income. It is a tenth of the produce of the field, a tenth of the fruit of the tree and the tenth animal that passes under the counting rod.

Leviticus 27:30, 32 KJV
And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the Lord's : it is holy unto the Lord . [32] And concerning the tithe of the herd, or of the flock, even of whatsoever passeth under the rod, the tenth shall be holy unto the Lord .

E.g if a shepherd has 19 new births among his flock, you will ask him to sell them and give the money of 1.9 sheep but according to the scripture above, he gives only 1 as there's no way he can give 0.9 of a sheep. Only live animals are taken as tithes to the levites and you or your pastor are no levites.

OLAADEGBU: Tithing only limits Christian liberality when you don't understand what it means. Tithes and offerings are two different types of giving in the Church of Christ. You cannot choose to give offerings and ignore to tithe and it doesn't have to be legalistic, it should be practised as Abraham, the father of faith did. Abraham was not under the law when he tithed. He believed God and God counted his faith as righteousness and was blessed. If we say we are under grace we should believe God as Abraham did and be blessed.

Hebrews 7:4 KJV
Now consider how great this man was , unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.

Does that scripture indicate Abraham gave tithe from anything other than spoils of war? Or you assume Abraham didn't have any other substance besides the spoils from that particular war? If I'm to tithe like Abraham, I'll need to go fight boko haram and claim their substance to tithe.

Also, Abraham was already blessed and very rich before meeting Melchizedek. I'm sure you know that?

Do you also agree I'm blessed irrespective of whether I tithe or not?

Malachi 3:8 KJV
Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.

Do you by any chance have any idea about what constituted offerings under levitical priesthood?

You might as well accuse our Lord Jesus Christ for saying what He said in Matthew 23:23

"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy and faith: these ought you to have done; and not to leave the other undone"

Are u sure its the same tithe Jesus mentioned that you're preaching today? @the bolded are purely garden spices. I trust you know that.

OLAADEGBU: What you don't understand is that tithes is the least they could give. You don't get to the level of giving those brethen gave without having a starting point. You cannot say that you have the grace of giving 100% when you strain at a mere 10%.

Do you have any proof that gentile (Greek) believers in Macedonia experimented or perfected the art of 10% before giving liberally even in their extreme poverty?

Is there any proof that a person who gives 10% after listening to a sermon on Malachi 3 can give 15%? Talk less of 100% like the Christians in acts of the apostles?

I don't think there's any proof. Do you?

OLAADEGBU: What you anti tithers fail to realise is that giving in the new testament exceed the tithes given on the OT. The early Christians did not limit it to just 10% they gave their all.

Now you're getting the point(wish it could stick). Tithing limits Christian liberality. It makes giving legalistic. Isreal of mosaic law gave 23.33% in tithes (you wrongly preach 10% and I wonder why) while Christians under grace gave as they were able as much as 100%.

They honoured the Lord with their substance which is quite different from what you folks are advocating.

Matthew 25:37-40 KJV
Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee ? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? [38] When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee ? [39] Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? [40] And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Considering the above scripture, is it only giving prescribed by the clergy that honours God? Do you think Christ was dishonouring himself when he said the poor can receive on his behalf? Also, can you point to where I have at any time advocated non giving in a church setting?

If you anti tithers would have your way you would rather that the Church be starved of funds so that the gospel be hindered.

False accusation. Let me try and accuse you: You tithe promoters are slimy businessmen who wish to line your pockets by lying to Christians that God must have their 10% or they die of poverty and eventually rot in hell fire.

"Do you not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar? Even so has the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel" (1 Cor. 9:13-14).

I agree with this.

OLAADEGBU: Did you not see a question and exclamation mark at the end of the first sentence? Why didn't you allow Mark to respond to the question instead of jumping into hasty conclusions? Is tithes not a form of giving? and if Mark says that he's been called to prevent tithe giving why do you have to put words into his mouth?

Ohh...so you were just asking?? You mean Mark's post wasn't clear enough to show that his grouse is with the monetary tithe requirement doctrine even though it was clearly stated in his post which you quoted??

Should I quote him again so you can see clearly what he wrote and realise your question or that entire post was unnecessary? That is assuming you you did not TRULY understand his post?

OLAADEGBU: In other words, the people of God will be free from giving to God and cheerfully give the least if at all.

2 Corinthians 8:1-2 KJV
Moreover, brethren, we do you to wit of the grace of God bestowed on the churches of Macedonia; [2] How that in a great trial of affliction the abundance of their joy and their deep poverty abounded unto the riches of their liberality.

The verse above describes the manner of giving of the Macedonian church and they are those Paul used as example referenced in the scripture Mark quoted. See the bolded. Does that look like folks who didnt want to give or when they did, gave the least possible to God? Or you can prove it was tithes they paid?

OLAADEGBU: God gave you a ministry to prevent believers from giving in His Church?! Has it ever crossed your mind that you might have mistaken God for the devil?

Hi Olaa, don't you think you deliberately misrepresented Mark in this your post? As far as I can read, There's nothing in his post which you quoted that remotely suggests what you accuse him of.

Isn't that deceptive? Is tithe the ONLY means by which man gives to God?

I know the desire to win arguments or trip the other party up exists in all humans but don't you think this is taking it too far?

yousee: I am totally in support of corporal punishment.
Modified and upgraded to suit the times.
Take away from the child that one thing he/she loves best and rather channel them to other activities.

My punishment those days was "read this book and tell me the story when i return from work"
That was so bad at first, cos i wanted to run the streets and play ball with my neighbours.
Well, long story short, i fell in love with the African Writers Series at a very young age and it really helped shape me.

@the bolded, Does your dad know my dad Its the exact punishment I used to serve apart from regular strokes of the cane sha. It was then extended to my birthdays; no birthday gifts except books which I must summarise. Read almost all the books in series 1 & 2 before I was 12.

Long story short, I can't thank the old man enough for that strict regime. Made me the person I am today. Trying the same thing with my children but 24 hr DSTV go gree??

Corporal punishment has its place of course but we should develop other methods too. Too much cane creates hardened children sometimes.

All I see from the OP is a rehash of the requirements of the mosaic laws. I'll be glad if the OP or any interested party can oblige us any new testament scripture that enjoins or commands restitution like Leviticus advocates.

We can take it from there.

Gombs: He's been busy...Mid year Pastor's Refresher Course and ICLC...

Meanwhile, I can't make a head or tail of the thread above.... let's start here. Thanks

OK then

Gombs: Finally a thread on restitution... I dnt think one should, 2 Corinthians 5 : 17 makes me don't have much savour for it, but what if the person who does wrong is already born again? He should then ask for forgiveness and refrain from such.

Goshen, drummaboy, kunle, candour....make una come and edify me on this topic

Hmm my friend Gombs, at long last, you have the maturity to invite me to a sensible thread away from the 'sham caricature' you and Kenny created and subjected yourselves to recently.

This topic was treated some time ago. See this link. https://www.nairaland.com/1155998/restitution-christs-teaching-church-old#13754550

Maybe we can start from there.

Meanwhile, why didn't you invite pastor Jo?

May his peace envelope us all.

Amen

made2fit: Falsification of CVs is another action of zero integrity that Christians practice. Know several of them that do this and consider it a norm. God help us!

May God help us indeed. Christians should light bearers but how can we be if we compromise because of pecuniary gains? Let the world accuse us of plenty things but we shouldn't give them a reason to accuse us of dishonesty or malpractice of any sort because that will do great harm to our christian testimony.

God bless u sister.

OLAADEGBU: I believe that those opposed to this kind of teaching are satanically influenced against the nation of Israel.

True

Nice teaching. Indeed Isreal is very much the focus of the end time events and the tribulation: the time of Jacob's trouble.

This article throws up another question thus: "where does this particular teaching fit in the messages popular in most mega churches today"?

How do you fit this teaching into the messages of christian domination etc spreading like wildfire today?

What a kolo thread!!!

Q: How transparent should church finances be?

A: As transparent as is humanly possible.

2 Corinthians 8:20-21 KJV
Avoiding this, that no man should blame us in this abundance which is administered by us: [21] Providing for honest things, not only in the sight of the Lord, but also in the sight of men.

Apostle Paul let us in on how we should approach matters such as this in the scripture above. The summary is to make sure your honesty is displayed in the sight of all men like you hope to show it to God. Most of our church leaders assume they owe no one but God accountability on issues of finances contributed by members but we see Paul, the apostle to the gentiles think differently.

Leaders who have nothing to hide do not shy away from scrutiny. If the secular world places premium on leaders being accountable to their followers, how much more Christian leaders?

Apostle John said you can't love God if you can't love your neighbour. So also you can't truly be honest before God if you can't display that honesty before men.

Very sad day indeed and could have been sadder for me and some neighbours.

Was prevented from attending the Kegites world gyration (my regular habit then) because my social club had an engagement that day otherwise I would have slept in Awo hall that day.

Got back home to sleep and woke up to the news the following morning. My club and I rallied round to help particularly with respect to blood donation for injured victims. Went to bed on Saturday only for loud knocks to wake me up by 6am on Sunday morning. I was face to face with Moses Oisakede(NANS President) who was leading a group of students going round picking cultists. It was a miracle they allowed me to pick a T-shirt and put on jeans trousers before my neighbours and i were bundled into NANS station wagon driven by Oisakede himself.

We found ourselves in Awo coffee room to undergo 'minimal' to 'maximum' 'shishi' but another miracle happened: a more probable group of cultists were suddenly brought in and attention shifted. One union guy came to interview us in company of some others and we were allowed to go back home without being assaulted.

It was a period of contrasting emotions. One day I felt like I contributed positively, the next, I was a suspected cultist about to be beaten unconscious or worse. I don't blame the union guys sha as everyone knew we had a 'formerly' notorious don as neighbour.

Its commendable that the OAU five are remembered every year. It will ensure that CULTISM: the cause of their death will not be allowed to rear its ugly head again.

Rest in peace Iwilade and co.

nlMediator: Ha ha ha! Of course, God's will can be contrary to ours. And sometimes we either do not know it or do know it but want to do something different. I thought I've said that in many words on this forum? If you know where I've stated or suggested otherwise, please point me to it.

@the bolded, .....and God can sometimes force us back like he did Jonah on the issue of Nineveh. Jonah had no choice in the matter. If he had tried to run again after the whale saga, maybe na Lion for swallow am next. God wanted Nineveh preached to and Jonah must do it , shikenan.

Anyway, I'm glad you and I are on same page here.

Also, what we should not do is use "God willing" or "if it be Thy will" in prayer. Especially where the will of God is known (e.g healing) or where we are praying in faith. You'll not see that taught or practiced anywhere among New Testament folks. Such insertion tends to nullify faith. If you're not sure of what God's will is before you ask for it (e.g particular job), go to God in prayer first and ascertain His will.

Hmmm. Thoughtful

Haba!!! Poverty has really bastardised and dehumanized Nigerians. They seek for solutions and are ready to do anything no matter how ridiculous to get it. Evil men capitalise on this and make all manner of claims in the name of the Lord because in Nigeria, being called 'a man of God' equates to infallibility and divinity that cannot, should not and must not be queried. I know some problems can be overwhelming but that is no excuse to take complete leave of our brains.

The only reason why this Timothy guy was arrested is because he's not one of the big ones. I believe more sinister activities go on in some bigger 'ministries' but who will bell the fat religious cats in this country? Its very likely the 'big man' syndrome is more utilised by mog's now than any other group and we all know how 'powerless' the law is when it comes to checking the 'Nigerian big man'.

Nigerian Christians, shine your eyes. Christ said "beware of wolves in sheep's clothing". Not every 'miracle worker' is of God. Plenty are out to get as much as they can from and they'll happily destroy you in the process.

No matter how this story pans out, those women and their children are scarred for life. Another circle of psychological problems (at least) has been created thereby.

nlMediator: Excellent! You surprised me here!!

Hoping to contribute tomorrow, God willing.

Really??

If indeed I surprised you, then it's my turn to be surprised.

@the bolded, so you believe God can will otherwise? Interesting!!

Xsolutions: If only our biggest/most popular Pastor's/Ministers preach these truths...EVERYTHING WOULD HAVE BEEN SOO MUCH BETTER AND EASIER instead of preaching UNREALITIES THAT MAY CAUSE YOU TO SHOUT AND SCREAM about what the WORD does not say and mean and then you begin to wonder why things didn't go as they were said in Church...SMH

Very true

nlMediator: ^^^

But surrendering your will is a decision, a choice you make. The whole Christian experience is about growing in our surrender. Choice of manner of death is only one of millions of choices Christians make everyday. I hope you're not deceiving yourself into thinking that in all these decisions, you or other Christians always make the right choice. That's the point.

The choice you have is the choice to follow Christ. This choice makes you enlisted into the army where your decisions and choices become dependent on the decision of your commander in chief. Paul didn't chose to be beheaded neither did Peter chose crucifixion. They had no choice. If they did, they'll prefer to go like Moses I'm sure. If you say you would have done better, I'll love to hear about what you know and have that they didn't.

@the bolded. Are you no longer a christian yourself? Were you not the one claiming God must cooperate with your decisions? so the onus is on you to tell us how correct the choices you make which God must abide by are. I don't delude myself thinking I own my life and can decide when I want to check out.

The other point is that people like Peter and Paul knew clearly what God's will was on this issue. For the vast majority of people facing death, God has not spoken to them or He did but their antenna is not properly tuned. Saying such people should accept death because Peter or some people in a book of martyrs did, misses the point. All of us should seek to grow in knowing His will for us.

Peter and Paul also knew that will of God couldn't be changed. That is the crux of the matter. I'm all for growing in the knowledge of the will of God for my life and pray about it everyday. I still ask, how do you know which person's death is the will of God and which isn't?

Do you think Stephen's death was not the will of God?

And to grow in the grace of doing it because it's not always easy even when we want to . That's why we hear the expression: the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.

Exactly. The Christian life isn't easy. Following the will of God can be hard because we are still in this corruptible body of flesh subject to pain and the like. This is why the bible is replete with exhortations to endure and persevere. See one of them

2 Timothy 2:3 KJV
Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.

The flesh is indeed weak. That is why I laugh at those who claim godhood. In this body of corruptible flesh? Naaaaa

nlMediator: ^^^

I think you're making this a lot about Peter and whether or not he could have said No. While the issue is that Peter and the rest died under the will of God. In the process, you miss the big issue, which is that not every untimely death is of God. Christians should be encouraged to resist and reject untimely death. But you took issues with resistance to death, saying in your very first post or so on this issue that believers of old were more accepting of death than today's christians. And if you're presented with David's death, you said he knew because he was old! 70 years is old? If at 70, people knew they'd soon die, what happens if they live till 90? So, they had premonitions for 20 years!

You're the one who made Peter's case a big issue. If you had accepted at the earliest mention that it was the will of God that couldn't be changed, it wouldn't have gone this far.

And how do you know which death is timely and which is untimely? I never took exception to resisting death. I took exception to the lie that "All heroes of scripture decided their deaths".

@the bolded, Do you mean David died untimely?

1 Kings 1:1 KJV
Now king David was old and stricken in years; and they covered him with clothes, but he gat no heat.

The bible said he was old, do you disagree?

Is there a mandatory time frame for having premonitions? (Though I wonder where you got the idea of a 20 year premonition from)

For the record, I'm all for what Peter and Paul did in accepting God's will for their lives. I'd do the same. But the aspect of acceptance should not be minimized. It's because they and Jesus accepted God's will that we celebrate them today. Not because they (Peter and other mortals) had no choice. That flies in the face of God's purpose of creating human beings who are free moral agents. He wants people who on their own will choose to do His will. That's why He did not stop Adam and Eve from sinning, even when stopping them would have saved God and the rest of us a lot of headache.

@the bolded, thank God for his mercies. Wish all Christians could think more like this.

When you become a christian, your will should be lost in the master's plan. You surrender your whole life, will, desires etc to him. I don't know if you've sang the hymn "Take my life and let it be" before. I sing it everyday and it keeps me in remembrance of my calling: a calling to full surrender. His will, not my will. I no longer own my life, The Lord does. Processor01 saw it as soldiering, I agree with him

As an unbeliever, I was 'free' to do what I wanted; temporary freedom for everlasting damnation. As a believer, I submit my will, choice etc to him so I could reap life everlasting.

An unbeliever can carry on deciding to do whatever he wants. The end would show who the boss is.

nlMediator: Asking for the manner of death to be changed does not necessarily mean selfishness, hatred of sacrifice or standing in the way of God’s Plan. It’s simply human. I don’t know why it is hard for us to understand that we’re still human and have certain feelings. Jesus asked God in serious prayer at the Garden of Gethsemane to consider changing the manner of death designed for Him. If the Son of God could pray that way, how about us mortals? In the case of Jesus, it could not be changed. Unlike Jesus, neither Peter nor any other Christian is indispensable in the plan or purpose of God to reach the lost, etc., even when obedience will bring Him glory.

I have never quarrelled with anybody's right to ask. You can decide to ask for the presidency of the united states or for God to even vacate his throne for you. One irrefutable fact and truth is that the prerogative for actioning the request rests solely with God Almighty. If he refuses, there's absolutely nothing you can do about it. Its called the sovereignty of God.

Jesus requested that the cup of suffering pass but he knew the rules hence the everlasting statement of surrender to God "Not my will, but thy will be done"

Peter was very much aware of this. It was going to bring glory to God and that's what counted and should always count for a Christian.

The thorn example from Paul you presented further cements my point. Paul was human and sought escape from punishment. Neither he nor God interpreted it as an indication that he has believed in vain. God can decide not to grant the request without castigating or condemning the person .And it’s easier to reject a request for removal of a thorn than one for violent death. So, that Paul got one answer does not mean Peter could not have gotten a different answer.

@ the bolded, Halleluyah o. This is all I've been saying since the start of the thread. God might chose to grant or not.

Of course Paul knew he was human. He wasn't lying to himself that he was a god. He even escaped some killers by coming down a city wall in a basket. I wish Christians screaming godhood will hear.

The holy spirit indicated clearly that Peter's horrible death was to bring glory to God. Just as Christ before him, Peter knew nothing could change that. Maybe he even gathered prayer warriors to pray but if God said no, who could say yes? An atheist might find that in bad taste, a Christian shouldn't.

On your crew, invite ke! Avoiding them is the beginning of wisdom, so chances of my inviting them are below zero. On a more serious note, this is an open thread and everyone is welcome. They should simply avoid polluting the environment by doing the devil’s work of dividing the brethren as that would drive other people like me away.

And your crew do not pollute the environment by doing the devils work? How many snide remarks have been thrown my way on this thread that I've overlooked?

Pls chill

Sure, I understand that you think the way to salvation is believing, excluding believing in vain. What’s problematic is what you choose to include under ‘believing in vain.’ How do we determine what goes into that and what does not? Your position reminds me of a Nigerian pastor that gives altar calls by quoting the scripture that says “all unrighteousness is sin” and then goes ahead to list a host of things he calls unrighteousness, including ladies’ hair attachment and weave on. That’s the same thing you’re doing here. Choose a scripture and make things you choose fit into it.

Maybe you forgot what you said that started this discussion on Peter. You said "But its up to Peter if he wanted that or not. He could have walked away on Jesus and died differently". So pls tell how someone could walk away on Jesus and not jeopardise his eternity simply because he wanted to die differently.

Also, its not your place or my place to tell what goes into 'believing'. We can't see the heart. That's why all those recitals of the sinners prayer is all nonsense. You can recite it a million times and never truly believe it for once. What matters is the heart which only the master can see. If Peter's heart was always with master, then he wouldn't walk away from the master just because he was afraid of dying violently. When he denied Christ, he came back because he knew where his home was. If he ran away to India, like Jonah was forced back, he would have been forced back home and still made to go through what he was trying to flee.

I disagree with you on Judas. The prophecy that somebody would betray Jesus never mentioned Judas Iscariot. Just as the birth of the Savior by a virgin did not mention Mary. Each made a decision to fit into God’s plan. The only way God could be justified in punishing Judas was because Judas acted on his free will. If God decided for him and he had no role but be an automaton, why should he die the way he did? Similarly, even when Jesus told Peter that he would betray Him and that it would be orchestrated by the devil, it was still Peter’s action. That’s why when he realized his error, he wept and repented (sign of personal responsibility) instead of relaxing or blaming it on God.

Granted the prophecy never mentioned Judas but do you think physical death matter so much? What type of death did he die that innocents all over the world haven't experienced? His physical death was many times better than what early Christians went through. Why, he wasnt even tortured. His eternal destiny was infinitely more important and that is where I believe he blew it. Despite the betrayal, he could have come back but he didn't.

Have you seen the scripture below before?

Romans 9:17-22 KJV
For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. [18] Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy , and whom he will he hardeneth. [19] Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? [20] Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it , Why hast thou made me thus? [21] Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? [22] What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Do you think Pharaoh had a choice?

On the Chevron job, I agree with you. But you see, it was God’s decision to give me the job and He even sent somebody to confirm the message. But it was still up to me to cooperate with His decision. That cooperation is also a decision, as you rightly stated. That’s the same thing with the believer’s death.

Was God at liberty to refuse you the job? If he had, what would you have done?

I welcome your questions.

None for now.

Suffering is not necessarily a part of Christianity as much as its a fact of living in a fallen world.

Boko haram in the north of Nigeria affects Christians, Muslims, pagans and atheists. Tsunami, earthquakes and other natural disasters is the lot of Christians and others in south east Asia. The effects of global warming can be felt the world over. Until the plan of redemption culminates in the millennial reign, these things will continue and even increase.

That said, being a Christian in this sinful and corrupt world comes with its challenges. You lose contracts or jobs because you refuse to bribe or sleep with the boss.You're singled out for victimization because you refused to be part of the fraud syndicate in the office. You miss a 'fine marriage' match because you refuse to sleep with the guy before tying the knot etc.

These are some of the things that could afflict a christian but we are to persevere and not be deterred. We are enjoined to remain steadfast and immoveable. We are enjoined to take our requests to God who called us

Philippians 4:6-7 KJV
Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God. [7] And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

Paul admonished us thus

Philippians 2:14-15 KJV
Do all things without murmurings and disputings: [15] That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;

Peter also said

1 Peter 2:11-12 KJV
Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul; [12] Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.

Finally we should remember

Hebrews 13:5 KJV
Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

nlMediator: I don't add jara. I may misread but it's never intentional because I want to be sure I understand what I'm disagreeing with. I answered your question on how Peter could maintain his relationship with Jesus if he disagreed or disobeyed with the message on the manner of death. This time, let me answer this way: by leaning on The same mercy and grace that saved him. He can tell God that it is too hard for him to bear.

@the bolded, its because you see it as a punishment and see Christianity as a passport to a life of ease. See what Christ had told them earlier in his ministry

Matthew 10:28 KJV
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Death wasn't to be feared so God would have told him the same thing he told Paul

2 Corinthians 12:9 KJV
And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

On washing of feet, you're on the wrong foot here. First, it was not just about Peter. It was about all the apostles. Jesus would have said the same thing to any of them, but they already complied. Second, that was an experience before the birth of Christianity. After Jesus' resurrection, one's eternal future is not determined by washing of feet. But by believing in Jesus and living for Him, repenting where we miss it.

We now know with the benefit of hindsight that even the ignominous and painful death picture too wasn't about Peter alone. It was about all the apostles (save John). My firm belief is that Peter was specifically informed because of his proclivity to go against specific programmes of the Spirit he wasnt comfortable with. Eg

1.Trying to steer Jesus away from the cross because he thought it was a horrible thing. (Matt 16:21-23, Mark 8:31-33)

2.Refusing to go to preach to Cornelius until God practically dragged him there. (Acts chapter 10)

Also like I said earlier the picture Christ painted to Peter wasn't open to negotiation because God wished to be glorified by it whether it was palatable to Peter and you or not.

John 21:19 KJV
This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me.

And we see Peter hold his peace about it henceforth.

I can see you're running away from your claim last month that salvation is based on believing only. Then, even your support crew came to assert that mere confession amounts to salvation by works. You're fine with it then. But now that it conflicts with the new reality you're projecting, it has become a case of twisting your words.

I know it's a challenge for you but can you try to leave 'crew'out of our discussion for once? I'm the one talking to you here. If you miss this 'crew', why not invite them?

My position on believing the gospel for salvation has not changed. Its still the same because that's the bible position. I gave you a scripture - the one i take as holding the full gist of the gospel that saves us today. I'll reproduce it here

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV
Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; [2] By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. [3] For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; [4] And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Ephesians 1:13 KJV
In whom ye also trusted , after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Hope you saw the parts in bold?

I have a simple question for you: who decided that Judas would be the one to betray Jesus - God or Judas?

God

Another simple one: if I pray to God to make me the MD of Chevron and He speaks to me the next day that He has answered positively and even sends somebody that never knew of the prayer to confirm it; when I start work at chevron, whose decision is it that I work at Chevron?

Yours

Hope you'll be ready to answer my own simple questions too?

Gombs: Yes, answer why you implied that ur grandmother had premonitions and Jesus was an exception cos he was God, hence I asked, did the heroes of the Bible also had premonitions?

I already answered and even gave you detailed examples and experiences of some of these heroes of faith, what else do you want?

If you don't like the answer I gave, how is that my fault? You're free to discard it but its on the WWW and any body interested will find it. If you are sure i'm wrong, pick it up from the answer I gave and let's proceed from there.

nlMediator: Interesting. You're the guy that told us only a few weeks ago that all that is needed for salvation is for one to believe. That even to confess Jesus as Lord as stated in Romans 10 was not necessary. Today, you're telling us that believing is not enough. The believer also has to accept the manner of death specified by God. Because if he doesn't he has believed in vain all this while and will be doomed for eternity. Yet, the guy that doesn't confess Jesus when he can hasn't believed in vain? Your position has no basis in Scripture and you can't fool anyone with Bible verses that you put your own gloss on.

You're very free to remix my posts into any format that would enable you vilify me but try not to add 'jara' when doing so. I asked you to tell how Peter could have rejected the manner of death Christ showed him without jeopardizing his eternity, you couldn't answer. Now you boldly twist my post and import things i never said nor implied to score cheap points?

See another instance with the same Peter. I hope this drives the point home

John 13:8 KJV
Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me.

Peter initially refused his feet be washed by Jesus but see the master's response at the bolded. IF I DONT, YOU HAVE NO PART WITH ME.

Do you think that declaration of the master would have had no effect on Peter's eternal destination? Or you assume our Lord was just blowing plenty hot air and blabbing?

When Peter saw that it wasn't a joking matter, see him trying to 'comply' but on his own terms. He wished to decide his own way

John 13:9 KJV
Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head.

However did Jesus succumb or let him have his way? Of course not. It was the Lord's way or the highway

John 13:10 KJV
Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.

That he would be a different Peter from the one we talk about is not the same as sayng he was never a believer.

The question is still "what would Peter have done differently to avoid the death the master showed him and still remain in a relationship with the master?

Sorry, my earlier response was messed up structurally.

I noticed. That's why I ignored it initially.

Gombs: Lol

How does the above suggest the folks of old in the Bible had premonitions?

Is that the new problem bugging you now?? Did you see any word resembling premonition in the post you're referring to?

BabaGnoni: ^^^
https://s12.postimg.org/k59xf56b1/thumbs_Up_Grin.gif

You're doing a good work here,
just passing by the 'hood...

----oooO----
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PS: Moses and Elijah each asked God to kill them.
Who had the last say or word?
Was either disappointed when prayer(s) wasn't answered?

My bro, at the bolded, could it be God

Of course God had the final say. Even if they were disappointed, they're foot soldiers and are expected to obey the last command.

God is God and he always has the final decision.

God bless you jare

Gombs: Joseph Henry Gilmore 1834-1918

He leadeth me! O blessed thought,
O words with heav’nly comfort fraught;
Whate’er I do, where’er I be,
Still ’tis Christ’s hand that leadeth me.

 He leadeth me! He leadeth me!By His own hand He leadeth me;His faithful follower I would be,  For by His hand He leadeth me.

2Sometimes ’mid scenes of deepest gloom,
Sometimes where Eden’s bowers bloom,
By waters still, o’er troubled sea,
Still ’tis His hand that leadeth me.

3[b]Lord, I would clasp Thy hand in mine,
Nor ever murmur or repine;
Content, whatever lot I see,
Since it is Thou that leadest me.[/b]

4And when my task on earth is done,
When, by Thy grace, the vict’ry’s won,
E’en death’s cold wave I will not flee,
Since Thou in triumph leadest me.

Source: http://www.hymnal.net/en/hymn/h/585#ixzz36iWo9QeO

The man knew death was below his feet...he knew death can't snatch him away... let me keep humming on joor...

Thank God for this hymn. if only he understands and believes the hymn his own hands reproduced.

Stanza 2 says in deep gloom or in bloom, in still peaceful waters or in troubled seas, he's content because Christ is the one leading him. This was the mindset of the early Christians and its the mindset I've tried to show on the thread. In bad and good situations, in life or death, Christ leads so nothing to fear.

Stanza 3 defeats every point you've raised on this thread. Gilmore said he'll be content whatever lot he faced since its the Lord that is leading him. Being content means whether good or bad, as long as Christ is leading, its OK. This is much like Paul's mindset and very much in agreement with all I've written here.

Its shocking how you decided to misunderstand and misinterpret stanza 4. The man said when his job on earth is finished, he will not flee from the hands of death because Christ is leading. The man wasn't rejecting death, he was ready to embrace it.

Let me also hum along with you jare

He leadeth me! O blessed thought.....