₦airaland Forum

We'll get in our response before the end of today God willing

Cheers all

Image123: Our reply will come in by the end of today. We want to use the opportunity to remind us of some of the rules of the thread. In particular we restate
1. During the discussion there shall be no insults, name calling,
maligning, critic of churches or ministers, or any intentional bid to
make an opponent look bad.
9. All points to be presented must be backed up by the Holy Bible,
the one accepted by most non-Catholic churches.

Hello brother. Just to let you and everyone know we are aware and will stick to the rules. We've not in any way violated them. Ministers referenced by us was because your team brought their names into the discuss and we believe you'll agree we did not insult or call any of them names.

However, we will take note once again

God bless

Our brothers go on and on that if we say the law is abolished, why then do we still speak of giving to charity at all, show love etc since they are all in the law. we'll answer by painting this scenario. Assume my brother works in office A and he resumes for work at 8am. He works there for 4 years then gets a better paying job at office B where resumption time is also 8am. Whose rules is he obeying when he resumes at the new office B at 8am? The rules of office A? Of course NO!!. Its only a coincidence that both offices share the same resumption time. He’s effectively obedient to the constitution of the new office B. so it is with our Christian life. If we do things with similarities in the law, it's simply a good coincidence. We DO NOT LOOK to the law for leading. We look to the spirit. The death of Jesus on the cross and his resurrection brought in a better hope, a better testament hence a better constitution. He is the end of the Mosaic law

Heb 7:18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and the unprofitableness thereof

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone that believeth

Heb 7:22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament

We don’t look to the law for lessons on love, There’s teaching on love all over the epistles of the apostles. We don’t look to the law to get lessons on mercy because mercy is an offshoot of love and once again, we have teachings on love by Christ which was repeated in all the epistles of the apostles. Love for my parents makes me honour them, not Mosaic law or are my brothers saying they wouldn’t love and honour their parents if not for Mosaic law? Love is the fulfilling of the law and it’s the one commandment that Christ left for his disciples.

John 13:34-35 A new commandment I give unto you, that ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.[35]By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another
John 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you
John 15:17 These things I command you, that ye love one another

And they taught it to us through their epistles in the bible.

Rom 13:8 Owe no man anything, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law
Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbor: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
1Peter 3:8 finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous:
1John 3:23 And this is commandment, that we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

Our brothers say that the early Christians paid the Apostles more than 10%. We say this statement is most unfortunate. The early Christians gave willingly and our fellow discussants call it paying. What were they owing that they had to pay? Do you pay what you do not owe? Under the law, the tithe belongs to the Lord. When a Jew gave tithes, he was paying God a rental of the land God gave him. Hence God was justified to call them robbers because the tithe of the land belonged to him under Mosaic law. It was non- negotiable.

Even pastor Chris of CEC agrees that you don’t pay a gift.

God is not a man (Numbers 23:19); He’s God. So you MUST give Him your tithes and your offerings, as God. Actually, you pay your tithe; you don’t give it, as you would your free-will offering. So your tithe is not a gift, because you don’t pay a gift

Culled from ROR devotional of Thursday April 7 2011

So it’s wrong for our brothers to try to belittle the great sacrifice that the saints at Jerusalem did when they gave up everything SOLELY for sharing to those who had needs. Of course, there is absolutely no Scripture to support this claim that ‘they paid 100% to the apostles’. This is a distortion of what the bible recorded the early Christians did. We all know what happened but for the sake of clarity, we’ll reproduce the scripture here

Acts 2:44-45 And all they that believed were together, and had all thing common;[45]And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as everyman had need

Acts 4:34-35 Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possesors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold,[35]And laid them down at the apostles feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need


The Bible NEVER SAID they were paying the Apostles. What will they be paying them for? what goods or services did they purchase from them? All they did was give a gift to help the poor among them. We don’t have to bend the words to fit into this tithe doctrine. The people gave up resources to give to those who had needs. Its very clearly stated in the above scripture and we don’t expect a living soul not to see it. The money was laid at the apostles feet, it wasn’t for the use of the apostles, rather it says that money was distributed to the saints according as every man had need. Even the collections instructed in the letter to the Corinthians was STRICTLY FOR THE POOR and it was a FREEWILL GIFT, NOT A PAYMENT OF TITHE. Pls let us crosscheck what the bible says

Our brothers say ‘’We now operate under the priesthood after the order of Melchisedek, Jesus Christ being our High Priest. The house of God is still here and there is still service in that house.’’ We agree with them that Christ is our high priest but do they know that even under the law, NO PRIEST pays tithe to the High Priest? If they believe like they say that we are priests under the High Priesthood of Christ, even the LAW they hold so tenaciously to forbids a priest paying tithes to the high priest because PRIESTS DON’T PAY TITHES. This again defeats their argument of Christians paying tithes under whatever guise. Also we are individually temples of God and temples don’t go to temples. When David said he was glad to go the house of God, he meant the place housing the ark of the covenant which later became the temple of Solomon. He sure wont call a synagogue the house of God. Synagogues of the Jews were scattered all over the ancient world, but non qualified as the temple or house of God simply because the ark of the covenant inside the holy of holies was not in any of the synagogues but at the temple in Jerusalem and since its destruction, the Jews know they can't refer to any place as God's house. Today, God dwells in us, NOT IN ANY BUILDING no matter how grand or magnificent. The idea of cathedrals in Christianity started with emperor Constantine( history again). It had nothing to do with the apostles. Having a building for meeting isn’t bad but we should be careful how we elevate that building to a sacred status because our church buildings aren’t sacred or holy. We are the sacred and holy people who congregate in those buildings. So the idea of needing tithes because theres still service in the house of God is wrong. There’s only one place where God needed a sacred tribe to work for him and that is the temple at Jerusalem.

Our brothers say ‘’ What the holy Ghost seemingly forgot to tell ALL the apostles, what He could not tell Oyedepo, Oyakhilome, Kumuyi, Adeboye,’’ we have deliberately refrained from mentioning the names of men who gather crowds in their denominations every week because they are unimportant to this discussions. However we wish to know why each of those men mentioned above disagree on almost all aspects of Christianity except the tithe and a few other places? How come only Oyedepo and Adeboye among the four seem to be able to minister in each other’s ministry and even then there are still vast differences in their beliefs and approach to Christianity? We know the Holy Ghost isn’t confused so we ask if these leaders are confused?

Also, our brothers accuse us of exaggerating the fear factor deployed in preaching of tithes. See what Pastor Adeboye wrote in his devotional of 29th September 2013

Moreover, restitution silences devourers. In Malachi 3:8-11, God said all His children who are robbing Him in tithes and offerings have violated His covenant, and therefore are under a divine curse. However, He says if they will restitute their ways, He will personally rebuke the devourer for their sakes and open the windows of Heaven to them and give them a blessing they will be unable to contain. There are two type of devourers – the ones sent by the devil (John 10:10) and the ones sent by God. To deal with the devourers sent by the devil, simply resist him and he will flee from you as long as you are in right standing before God. But to deal with the devourers sent by God, it is through restitution. You will have to cry to God for forgiveness and thereafter undo what made Him to send the devourers in the first place. Do you owe God in tithes, offerings, thanksgiving or vows? Ask for forgiveness and go ahead and pay what you owe. If it is in tithes, also add 20% as interest being the penalty for eating your tithes (Leviticus 27:31).

Do our brothers now see that we didn't exaggerate anything? Do we assume our brothers agree with the theory propounded above? Could that be the holy Ghost speaking there as well?

END

RESPONSE TO RESPONSE R6


Our brothers say: “The law qualifies under ALL SCRIPTURE, and the man of God has the privilege of using it and other scriptures as the Spirit of God leads.” And we’re forced to ask if the Holy Spirit will lead you into distorting, misusing and disregarding the express law of God? For instance, can the Holy Spirit lead you to designate any other day of the week as the Sabbath day apart from the seventh day(Saturday)? Well some baby Christians think so and regard Sunday(1st day of the week) as their new Sabbath day. They even condemn those who work on Sunday as disobeying God’s Sabbath instructions but are they right? No they are wrong because God NEVER changed his Sabbath day. It still remains the seventh day (Saturday) but because we are NOT under Mosaic law in this dispensation, he doesn’t hold non-observance of Sabbath against us. We know we can worship God on ANY day of the week convenient for us because we have the liberty of the Spirit. For those who wish to be regulated by the Sabbath laws, they’re free to go ahead, but they should refrain from making it a law for other Christians. So it is with the Tithe. God knows what he called tithe, he also remembers those he willed it to and they are the Levites, widows, fatherless and strangers. THERE’S NO SCRIPTURE IN THE WHOLE BIBLE THAT SAYS HE CHANGED THIS LIST. If you give tithes to any category apart from those God listed, you might as well have given it to a thief, a policeman, a shaman or a sorcerer. It makes no difference to God because you were not giving his tithe anyway. This is why criminals, ritualists and fraudsters have no problem mounting pulpits today to collect tithes, because there’s nothing holy about the tithes being paid in churches today. God clearly stated what his holy tithes were (Lev 27:30-34) and he also enumerated the beneficiaries (Num 18:21,24,26-28; Deut 14:22-29).

Again, we have no problem affirming that the entirety of God’s Word speaks to us. It speaks to Mark each time he pushes the button on his Audio Bible. Not only does he hear the voice of Alexander Scourby reading the Word of God to him, he can hear what God is saying to him as well just as the word of God speaks to Candour when he too picks up his bible and reads. Concerning God’s Holy tithe, God’s Word tells us it was
1. The seed of the land
2. The fruit of the trees
3. Of the flocks and herds it was every tenth animal to pass under the rod.

Further, we hear that God’s tithes were eaten by the Levites, the widows, the orphans, the strangers visiting the city, and yes, it was also eaten by the tither and his family as well. we hear the words of Jesus, who told the scribes and Pharisees that the tithes they were giving were agricultural. we hear the words of Jesus when He told them that they were to tithe “these things” which is speaking of the things he mentioned in His address to them i.e., mint, rue, cumin, anise, all manner of herbs. In other words, we hear the words of Jesus when He told the Pharisees to tithe their agricultural products. What we don’t hear is any instruction for man to tithe his wages, carpentry products etc. Well, we take that back. We do hear one command for man to tithe his money. But that command is not coming from the Word of God. Nor is it coming from the Holy Spirit. Rather, it is coming from the heart of men who want Christians to tithe money when God gave us no such command

Yes, we do listen to the Word of God on a regular basis and there is no command in Luke 11:42 for us to tithe anything other than edibles, neither is there any such command in Matt 23:23. We have asked over and over again for the verse in the Bible that says we are to tithe anything other than farm products and Consistently we are given verses that pertain to an agricultural tithe commandment. The tithers consistently take us to the Law to prove a tithe that is nowhere found in the Law.
We would agree that there is nothing wrong with being a Pharisee but we expect the Pharisee not to be like the ones holding sway during the time of Jesus. All they were teaching for doctrines were empty commandments of men and when they do, their worship is in vain

Matthew 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men

Once more, see the scripture where God mentioned a tithe law FOR THE VERY FIRST TIME and it’s strictly Agric produce.

Leviticus 27:30-33 And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the LORD'S: it is holy unto the LORD. And if a man will at all redeem ought of his tithes, he shall add thereto the fifth part thereof. And concerning the tithe of the herd, or of the flock, even of whatsoever passeth under the rod, the tenth shall be holy unto the LORD. He shall not search whether it be good or bad, neither shall he change it: and if he change it at all, then both it and the change thereof shall be holy; it shall not be redeemed

There are several important things that we must point out from the above scripture

[b]1. God said, “All the tithe of the land”. “All the tithe of the land” is referring to agricultural. We know this because of the words that follow.
2. God said, “Whether of the seed of the land”. Seed of the land is speaking of the agricultural produce; i.e., garden vegetables
3. God said, “Or of the fruit of the tree”. Again, this is clearly agricultural. It is speaking of dates, figs, pomegranates, etc..
4. God said, “It is the LORD’s”. “It” refers to the seed of the land and the fruit of the tree mentioned in this same sentence. God said all the tithe that He mentioned above belonged to Him.
5. God said, “It is holy unto the LORD.” The word “holy” is translated from the Hebrew word “qodesh”. It means “sacred, set apart.” A tenth of the seed of the land and the fruit of the tree was to be set apart for God.
6. God said, “If a man will redeem ought of his tithe.” The word redeem means “to buy back.” The farmer who grew a field of barley had the privilege of buying back his tithe if he so chose to do.
7. God said that the tithe of the flocks and herds was “every tenth animal to pass under the rod.” This is self explanatory. And, as evident still is speaking of farming; in this case, farming animals.
8. God said the animal tithe could not be bought back by the tither[/b]

Even with all these proofs, our brothers insist that money was tithed and for proof, they run to a parable… Not something that happened in real life, but a parable that Christ used to illustrate the emptiness of the religion practiced by a Pharisee

Luke 18:9-14 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for everyone that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted

Christ said that the Pharisee said he tithed of all his income.This parable wasn’t meant to glorify or enforce tithes; it was used in pointing out the self-righteousness of the Pharisees. He told a story to illustrate that self-righteousness.There is not one instance in the Word of God that says a Jew actually tithed everything under the law … except in a parable of a self righteous Pharisee. A parable is a story that uses real people or real objects to illustrate a spiritual truth. The truth was not that there was a Pharisee that tithed everything. THE TRUTH CHRIST WAS PASSING ACROSS WAS THAT GOD CHERISHED HUMILITY AND DESPISED PRIDE. Did this Pharisee actually tithe everything or was he even faithful to tithe at all? Its highly doubtful if the appraisal of their life done by Christ himself is anything to go by.

Matthew 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not

They were master liars who say and boast of plenty things to put yokes on their listeners. They boast of how strict they observe law even adding their own commandments to God’s laws and they package these laws to inflict burdens on people.

Matthew 23:4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers

Is that the example our brothers wish to follow? John the Baptist called them a generation of vipers (Matt 3:7) and our Saviour said they say but don’t do what they say, therefore what makes our brothers believe the slimy hypocrite actually gave tithes at all or even fasted as he said? We doubt if that is a worthy example to pattern the Christian life after.

Our brothers say they don’t want to bring BC and AD into the discussion because want to discuss tithes from a biblical perspective, that worldviews are not necessary. Yet, it is the world that has invented the monetary tithe requirement doctrine. As we have demonstrated over and over and over again, the Word of God gives absolutely no instruction for man to tithe his money. The Monetary Tithe Requirement Doctrine was invented by American Christians in the 1800’s after the Catholics had reawakened Agricultural tithes in 567AD to be given to NON LEVITICAL PRIESTS. It is not taught anywhere in the pages of God’s Holy Word.

Our brothers say the Holy Spirit did not ask Christians not to tithe but does the Holy Spirit need to specially ask the Christians not to tithe when he clearly instructed that they SHOULD NOT BE BURDENED OR ASKED TO OBSERVE MOSAIC LAW. Is the tithe no longer a part of Mosaic law? The law of tithe is not more important than the law of the various feasts and they all belong to the Mosaic law. Hear the word of God again

Acts 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, Saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

Acts 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;[29]That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

Acts 21:25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication

Whether for Salvation or ‘it’s the safest thing to do’ or ‘to fulfill all righteousness’, the Holy Spirit clearly instructed the Jerusalem council to refrain from asking Gentile Christians to adhere to Mosaic law and Tithes is still clearly of the law.
Our brothers keep saying they know we don’t tithe to be saved but what exactly do they mean whenever they say tithing is the safest thing to do? Is that not a stylish way to say what the Jews and Pharisees said boldly in the verse below?

Acts 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved

And reemphasized again?

Acts 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses

Of course the Pharisees in verse 5 still believed the Gentiles couldn’t be saved without adhering to Mosaic law otherwise why would Peter say the below?

Acts 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they

Some Jewish Christians at Jerusalem believed that gentiles couldn’t be saved without adhering to Mosaic law but the holy Ghost countered them immediately. GENTILE BELIEVERS WERE NOT REQUIRED TO OBSERVE PRACTICES IN THE LAW. This is also made clear in the following references Rom 7:1-4; Gal 3:10,24-25. We must remind our readers once again that the Apostle Paul, writing under inspiration of the Holy Ghost, wrote that we are not under the Law, but under Grace. Note that he did not say “Ye are not under the penalty of the Law.” No, he wrote, “Ye are not under the Law.” See samples

Romans 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Galatians 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law


indeed we are not under the law.

We'll send in our reply before 10pm today by the grace of God.

Thank you

God bless you my brother i.chuka

Wonderful write ups here

It is truth that Jesus said his words will not pass away. It is also true that God doesn’t change but he has the right to change his program. God instituted Sabbath with all its strict regulations but any Christian observing Sabbath today is simply putting himself in a bondage that God didn’t ask of him. God instituted feast of tabernacles, feast of Pentecost etc, but any Christian hung up on all those today is simply stunted in his growth and will do well to grow up. The law says a menstruating woman must not come near the sanctuary but any woman observing that today is simply superstitious. The law has served its purpose. As a matter of fact, in 52 A.D., the Apostle Paul wrote a letter to the Galatians telling them that they were not to submit to the Mosaic Law, telling them they were to “cast out the bondwoman and her son.” (Galatians 4:30-31) telling them that they were not under the Law, but under grace.

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.[25]But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a school master.

It is nice to wear socks for warmth etc so the secondary school authorities insist on socks which must be white for all students. If I didn’t wear socks or it wasn’t white enough, I received strokes of the cane. However, as an adult now, if I like I can wear red, black or even pink socks, no one can query me because I am now an adult. There are even times I feel uncomfortable wearing socks and I won’t simply because I don’t feel like it. Once again, no one can query or punish me because I’m an adult. So it is with the Christian. The lesson is not about wearing white socks but its about wearing socks for warmth etc. Giving is the lesson or principle we learn, not paying 10%.

The verse below condemns those who would place themselves under the law.

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

If you wish to be under the law, then you must obey everything the law says. Moses said it in Deut 27:26 and the Holy Spirit reminded everybody through the pen of the apostle Paul.

Our brothers say ‘’What we should seek is how the Son is superior, what things the Son has brought that shows his superiority, and so on." This is in reference to a comparison of Aaronic priesthood and Melchizedek but where is the command to tithe there? In Hebrews 7, the chapter that says that Jesus is superior, we find that the command for tithes is still there. But still, it is the command for Levites to take tithes of the tribes of Israel...

Hebrews 7:5 And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:

Those tithes are, "according to the Law" and not 'according to Abram's tithe’. According to the Law... Agricultural tithes. (Lev. 27:30-33) and given to specific people (Deut 14:22-29 and Num 18:21, 26-28) but in any case, this law for Jews was discarded in 70AD when the temple was destroyed and Jerusalem sacked. There is no scripture in the whole bible that transfers tithe collection and administrative powers to the Christian church or its leaders. Our brothers "wrest Scriptures," when they discard this clear and concise format for tithes.

Our brothers quoted all the below and I wonder how they can miss the very obvious ODD one out of all. Who can spot the odd one out of the seven references? Well, Mark and Candour can and it’s the very first reference with scribes, Pharisees clearly standing out as those he was talking to. My brethren, Matt 23:23 was clearly not talking to the disciples but more impirtantly, it SURELY ISNT TALKING TO YOU TODAY or are our brothers the Scribes and Pharisees? Are they the hypocrites Christ was referring to there?

1. You ought to tithe.
Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

2. You ought to be healed/delivered
Luk 13:16 And ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan hath bound, lo, these eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the sabbath day?

3. You ought to pray.
Luk 18:1 And he spake a parable unto them to this end, that men ought always to pray, and not to faint;

4. Christ ought to suffer. He could have called twelve legions of angels.
Luk 24:26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?

5. You ought to serve one another.
Joh 13:14 If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet.

6. You ought to obey God.
Act 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

7. You ought to support the weak.
Act 20:35 I have showed you all things, how that so laboring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive.
Rom 15:1 We then that are strong ought to bear the infirmities of the weak, and not to please ourselves.

Our brothers say ‘’the way antitithers go on about tithes, one would think it was the infamous unpardonable sin’’ We affirm to them that indeed many christian leaders and even tithe collectors and preachers on Nairaland have made non adherence to this Mosaic law the unpardonable sin for which you’ll pay a lot of heavy penalties. They say you’ll suffer loss and calamities on earth, then suffer for all eternity in hell fire. Chief among the penalties they’ve poured out from their covetous minds are below

1. If you don't tithe, you will burn in hell for ever because you’re a robber and all robbers are going to hell.

2. If you don’t tithe, you’ll have devourers like accidents, sickness, job loss, financial backwardness etc but if you do, you’ll have plenty money, sickness free life etc.

Our brothers say they’ve NEVER heard all these before and we actually are touched by their innocence. Since they have not heard the two nonsense and false statements before, we make bold to tell them it is preached everywhere and if they pay attention more, they’ll surely hear and read it. Hell videos spread like wild fire through the country and even on Nairaland with morbidly exciting stories of how non tithers are the most tortured in hell fire. Infact a protither gave a catalogue of 9 different visits to hell which in his mind confirm this evil theory. A devotional by a popular G.O was posted on Nairaland explaining how God will send devourers to non tithers except they repent of this sin and add 20% late tithe remittance fee (this is not an exaggeration). I’m glad our brothers said they don’t subscribe to these rubbish statements and one or two tithe promoters have also sought to distance themselves from these lies. We hope they’ll help spread the good news because with respect to the cross, those two statements are actually lies from the devil himself. For folks who refuse to preach against sin or how GRACE ISN’T A LICENSE TO SIN, we all must join hands together to castigate them just as we expect unity in condemning those who peddle the above falsehoods in Christianity today. God intends his children to be spirit led and when they are, the corruption of the flesh will be relegated.

The Holy Spirit whom Christ promised to send to guide us and tell us things he didn’t tell us because we couldn’t bear them has come and he has spoken and he said ‘NOT TO BURDEN GENTILE CHRISTIANS WITH UNNECESARY THINGS’ It will do us good to heed his call.


END

REBUTTING PRESENTATION R6


Our brother wrote: Our tithing is because Jesus never condemned it and suggested that it ought to be done. (Luke 11:42)

As we have pointed out in the past, the tithers, while saying they don’t tithe because of the Law, ultimately return to the Law, saying “Jesus suggested it ought to be done, but Jesus didn’t merely suggest it ought to be done, He was reminding his audience that THE LAW OF MOSES SAID SO hence doing it was NON-NEGOTIABLE. See Matt 23:1-3 if you doubt this

Again, we will ask our readers to look again at the verse in which Jesus said tithing should be done

Luk 11:42 But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

We hereby ask our brothers thus, Are you a Pharisee? We are not, and we seriously want to believe our fellow discussants are not either. However we don’t want to claim omniscience over their own lives so we’ll not assume until they tell us. However, we want readers to note the following from this verse

1. Jesus was talking to a people under the Mosaic Law, who were required to obey that Law (Malachi 3:7-11)
2. The tithes Jesus said the Pharisees were tithing were tithes that the Law required; i.e., agricultural tithes. (Leviticus 27:30-33)

Our brothers say ‘’ Jesus NEVER condemned tithes. However, we ask How is the tithing been done today true to the tithe laws that Jesus Christ was asking the Pharisees to uphold? The answer: the tithe practiced today is totally false to the laws God gave Moses on tithe collection and administration. The tithe laws of Moses were exhumed, horribly distorted, panel beaten and then sold to Christians today as doctrine but it’s majorly for the benefit of those in the top echelons of the various empires in Christianity today. The Lord Jesus Christ, during His Earthly ministry did not condemn tithes but again, He never changed them neither did he substitute beneficiaries. The tithe Jesus didn’t condemn are 1. The tithes of Agric produce to the Levites(Num 18:21) and a tenth of the tithes to the priest (Num 18:26-28) 2. The Tithes of every three years to the widows, fatherless and strangers. and given to specific people namely Levites, Widows, fatherless, strangers (Deut 14:27-29) 3. The tithes which the tither himself ate at a feast where God designated for such(Deut 14:22-26)

How true are they to these tithe ordinances?

Our brothers say ‘’ The Holy Spirit in all holiness, speaking expressly in all those epistles, NEVER CONDEMNED TITHING’’ But did he ask Christians to tithe? The Jews had been tithing in accordance with Mosaic law for hundreds of years. This is known by all of us. However, See the master’s words

John 16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

It was unbearable for a Jew not to be under the law. Remember Peter arguing with God about eating things the law condemned (Acts 10:11-16) and he even had to remind Cornelius how it was UNLAWFUL for him(Peter) to come into the house of a Gentile(Acts 10:28) but he came because God decreed otherwise. Even after Cornelius’s salvation, some of the Christians (Jews) at Jerusalem still condemned Peter’s visit to an uncircumcised man (Acts 11:1-3). These were some of the hard things that Christ said they couldn’t bear if he told them, but he made a promise

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come

Some Jewish Christians were hung up on the law. It was the law or nothing else

Acts 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses

However, hear what apostle James, the leader of the Jerusalem church said

Acts 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, Saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

He even denied all these Judaizers sitting in Moses seat. THEY DIDN’T GIVE SUCH A TEACHING TO THEM. Apostle James said a commandment to gentile Christians to keep the law, MEANT A SUBVERSION OF THEIR SOULS. Are our brothers trying to subvert our souls here? Then hear what he concluded under the leading of the Holy Ghost

Acts 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;[29]That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

The Holy Ghost thought it good not to burden gentile Christians with THE LAW OF MOSES except the listed commands and we are sure no one will find tithing there. Are our brothers trying to be more knowledgeable than the Holy Ghost who has now come to teach us all things as promised by our Lord and savior?

Apostle James himself a Jew was still carrying out the traditions of his fathers. See what he told apostle Paul, a fellow Jew

Acts 21:24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law

Jews in Jerusalem had heard that Paul was stopping Jews in gentile cities from observing Mosaic law(Acts 21:20-22) and to avoid their harassment, he asked Paul to dispel their fears by observing a particular law. However, concerning Gentile Christians (You and I), he didn’t forget what the Holy Ghost had said through him years earlier. He repeated it in the very next verse

Acts 21:25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

This in my opinion is as clear as daylight. GENTILE BELIEVERS WERE NOT REQUIRED TO OBSERVE PRACTICES IN THE LAW. Our brother quoted Heb 13:8 to show that Jesus doesn’t change with an obvious insinuation that the tithe be continued but we wonder did the apostles and early Christians who carried the banner of Christianity NOT get this memo? We’ve made the statement below a few times and we still await a refutation from our brethren discussing with us

1.Early Jewish Christians eligible to pay tithes would have paid BUT ONLY TO LEVITES at the temple because that’s what the law said (NOTHING TO DO WITH THEIR BEING CHRISTIANS) and they were zealous of the law and NOT TO THE APOSTLES as that would be transgression of the law they were said to be zealous about. Even more serious is that THE JEWS PRACTICING JUDAISM AND THEIR LEADERS WOULD NEVER HAVE ALLOWED THE Christian leaders take over the rights and privileges’ of the Levites.

2.Gentile Christians (You and i) were not expected to adhere to Mosaic law hence they NEVER paid tithes either to the Levites or to the apostles. THEY OPERATED ON THE BASIS OF FREEWILL OFFERINGS, NOT TITHES.

What do tithe preachers know today that the apostles didn’t?

Happy new year Nairalanders. Saw this nice piece and thought to share with all of us

Pls read and think on it.

Thanks

“The only vice that cannot be forgiven is hypocrisy. The repentance of hypocrite is itself hypocrisy,” William Hazlitt.

We are a very religious society, maybe not a very spiritual one. Religion deals with the rituals, formalisms, traditions and systems of reaching out to God—or gods. Spirituality is the inner dimension that connects us with God in spirit and truth. The spiritual touches at the heart and core of our beliefs. It is from this core that springs the force of truth, conscience and righteousness.
As almost everyone has acknowledged, this has not been a very righteous society. Rather, this is a society substantially trapped in religious dogma, rituals and appearances but lacking the life-changing substance of truth and righteousness. We’ve lived with the sad paradox of more religion, but less righteousness.
There is perhaps no time the emptiness of religion is more in display in our country than the New Year eve. With the New Year around the corner, we are going to see a lot of drama. In those bygone years, on the last night of the Year, the houses are swept clean, sweeping out evil relics of the outgoing year—sicknesses, poverty, failures, bad luck, infertility, everything bad. In a manner of speaking, the outgoing year is the villain, the all-purpose scapegoat for all our failings, while the in-coming year is heralded in glory.
I recall that in those primordial years, leftover foods in the night were warmed for breakfast the following morning. But on the New Year eve, no food prepared the outgoing year was allowed to survive into the coming year, lest the people be infected with the ills of the outgoing year. Clothing, pots and crockery were cleaned out to welcome the New Year.
I would hardly be surprised if some families are still sustaining that tradition. As in the past, you are going to see a lot of ceremonials tonight—the rituals and formalism of religion, chasing away the bad year and ushering in the good year, the New Year, 2014. Watch out for a lot of drama: powerful religious people are going to rehearse the same exhortations and New Year homilies.
Meanwhile, churches are going to be full, at times, beyond capacity tonight more than at any other time of the year. It’s time for crossover service. Many who had never entered a church would show up to pray away the bad luck of the dying year and pray in good things for themselves. Some of these attend churches only once a year for a crossover service. It is perhaps, one of the few occasions the nether part of heaven is assailed by prayers of repentance as people renounce their recurrent sins and pledge fidelity to God in the New Year.
So, New Year resolutions are entered, but soon broken or forgotten afterwards. Powerful resolutions backed with fervent prayers. It is possible that God’s attitude to the New Year drama is just a bored celestial yawn! Here they come again! He saw all these coming when He aptly noted in Isaiah 29:13, “These people come near to me with their mouth and honour me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. Their worship of me is based on merely human rules they have been taught.”
That’s religion, Nigerian style particularly! Tonight in our holy places including the chapels in our various seats of power, so many carnal souls will fill out the spaces, jostling for vantage seats, television cameras and photo opportunities; reading out lessons for the day and invading heavenly places with the noise of their ritualistic supplications. But for many of those too, their hearts may be far away from God. If anything, their hearts are focused on the next juicy contracts and powerful connections which such gatherings offer. Or even plotting their next debauchery or political chicaneries.
Whether tonight or any other day, God is seeking for true worshippers who come to seek God in spirit and truth, not in false and feigned piety that will be drowning the nation’s space at the various crossovers tonight and tomorrow morning, only for everyone to return to their old ways.
Will our leaders turn a new leaf? I wish I can say yes, but I doubt it. That is why I fear for the New Year, 2014. Take just one indicator. The new national budget has come, but the provisions indicate that even the budget has become a ceremonial ritual rather than substance.
If you are expecting a better year in 2014, please pray for it, plan for it, work for it—outside the budget. But don’t build your hope on the national budget unless you wish to fetch water with a basket. I agree with those who say that the 2014 budget is a budget of re-election campaign rather than national development. The labyrinth of sundry provisions may turn out to be mere conduits for slush campaign funds.
One tiny item in the budget is perhaps symbolic of why the whole budget may turn out, as always, to be a sham. Tucked into the budget is the provision of a sum of N34.5 million for two animals in the Aso Rock zoo! In the context of N4.6 trillion, what does N34.5m matter? That is the old accountancy trick—to dissipate huge sums into so many tiny subheads until an elephant may be swallowed by a gnat!
According to Punch newspaper report yesterday, N14.5 million is the cost for the animals and N20 million is for “trackers”. This is the point: assuming the provision is really meant for these animals, the annual cost of these two pets is more than the annual salary of a university professor! That perhaps would explain why ASUU’s strike lasted so long.
A dissection of the entire budget provision would open even more padded can of worms, not the least perhaps is the provision for acquisition of additional aircraft into the presidential fleet which already had ten aircrafts, ranking us among the few countries in the world with a large presidential fleet. In the budget, N2.4 billion will go into the foreign trips of the president and the his deputy, meaning that if the budget is to be believed as a statement of real intention, then in a crucial year like 2014, the president is going to spend much of that year in the air! Perhaps, on this score, he may be chasing former President Olusegun Obasanjo’s record who by Chief Gani Fawehinmi’s calculations, spent about a year of his tenure outside the country! The weird logic is this: when national revenue goes down, then travel more!
The tragedy of the New Year ritual is that many people tend to believe that what happens to them in the coming year is going to be shaped solely by the fervency of their prayers in the crossover night. Well, yes, and no! Yes, because prayer works, but no because many simply slip back into the routine of their old lives afterwards, expecting the miracle of a changed circumstance without a changed input.
But, that’s not the deal. Year 2014 or any year for that matter will always be for DOERS and not hearers only, who deceive themselves into illusionary expectations. Join the doers and it shall be well with you.

Source: http://sunnewsonline.com/new/back-page/reflections-new-year/

Our brothers said, “With God, it is not a limitation of tribe’’ but we tell them that in the body of Christ, there is no tribe (Gal 3:28). No levite, No priesthood save the high priest who is Christ himself. Christianity is not animal farm where some are more equal than others. We all are equal in the sight of God. If earthly acquisitions favours one more than the other, then it behooves the one with earthly goods to succor and support the one less privileged whether pastor or member. That is the constitution of the body of Christ. That is the way of the cross. Loving, sharing and providing ‘as everyman hath need’

Our brothers said ‘Notice from all these lists that not just the levites recived tithes, even UNDER THE LAW’’ We say thank God for this insight because this is what we’ve been telling them since we started this thread that Levites, widows, fatherless and strangers owned the various tithes requested in the laws of Moses. When they quote Malachi 3:8-11 to make people comply with the tithe, which category do they have in mind? The levites? Widows? fatherless? strangers?....or the unnamed tribe called pastors? Well under the Law, even prophets who were mightily used by GOD ARE CONSPICUOSLY ABSENT FROM THE LIST OF TITHE BENEFICIARIES GOD GAVE. Did God forget? Of course not. He alone knows why he gave a specific list and if the apostles did not wrest this from the beneficiaries, WHO NOW HAS THE RIGHT TO? The apostles limited their collections to freewill offerings. I see no reason why Christians of today should challenge what God instituted or change the practice of the apostles.

Our brothers said ‘’The tithe of the tithe is also a tithe by the way, and God reckoned it as tithe too. No one should be unnecessarily confused about the wordplay as it were’’ But we wonder how many pastors will accept 1% of members income as tithe today because that is what the tithe of tithe amounts to (I trust our brethren know this). Not more than 1%. In fact It could even be lesser if you take the case of a Jew who had increase of 18 goats. He can only give one as he can’t give 1.8 goats. And if he can give a tithe of the tithe, then pastor will receive nothing as he can’t give 0.1 goat. The law said ‘whatsoever passeth under the rod, the tenth shall be holy unto the LORD’ (Lev 27:32). God differentiated between the tithe(to the Levite) and the tithe of tithes (to the Priest). Our brothers get ahead of themselves and take the joke too far when they tag God’s clear and concise commandment a word play.

Our brothers said ‘’God is not constrained as to who He can use to serve in His house. He who is able to turn stones into children of Abraham, is equally able to make and take Gentiles for priests and for levites’’ and to this we say all Christians work for God or in the house of God. Choristers work for God. Ushers work for God. Sanctuary keepers work for God. Sunday school teachers, children teachers etc all work for God. There is no sacred place in Christianity or a Christian gathering or building that is prohibited from any member of the body of Christ so we have absolutely NO USE for any Levite wanabe in Christianity today but even more comforting, neither does God. When Christ died, the curtain hiding the holy of holies was rent in twain, No Christian has any right to partition the body of Christ into Levites (with Sacred duties) and non levites. That practice belongs in Judaism and whoever wants to practice Judaism is free to do so as long as it’s not brought into the body of Christ.

Our brothers insist that the currency of the Bible was agrarian. Yet, even in 1410BC, when the tither was told to take his tithe to a certain place, he was told he could sell the tithe for what? More agrarian produce? No! He was told he could sell it for silver.

Deuteronomy 14:25 Then shalt thou turn it into money, and bind up the money in thine hand, and shalt go unto the place which the LORD thy God shall choose:

The fact that tithes could be sold for silver proves that the farm produce was not the currency of Bible times.

Genesis 17:13 (1898 B.C. ) He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

Genesis 20:16 (1898 B.C. ) And unto Sarah he said, Behold, I have given thy brother a thousand pieces of silver: behold, he is to thee a covering of the eyes, unto all that are with thee, and with all other: thus she was reproved.

Abraham bought Sarah’s burial cave for 400 shekels of silver. Jacob bought food from Egypt with Money. Money had been in existence even before Abraham was born. History will tell you this.

Tithes belong in the law of Moses. Our brothers agree that we are not under the law. They should therefore stop picking convenient practices from the law, but more importantly, they should stop panel beating the law to suit whatever use they wish to put it to. The apostles set the example of freewill offerings and that is what Christ himself taught them when he sent them out to preach. He asked them to receive whatsoever people gave them, he didn’t ask them to collect tithes because he knew better and we know that too today. If Christ didn’t need it, neither do we. If the apostles and the early church didn’t need it, neither do we.


END

RESPONSE TO REBUTTAL M5

We will once again remind our brethren that we are having this discussion because of a lot of Lies that have been told the children of God to force tithes out of them, particularly these four below

1. If you don't tithe, you will burn in hell for ever.

2. If you don’t tithe, you’ll have devourers like accidents, sickness, job loss, financial backwardness etc but if you do, you’ll have plenty money, sickness free life etc.

3. Pay tithe as eternal principle to prove Abraham is your father according to Gen 14 and Heb 7

4. Pay tithe to your pastor because he is senior to you in the order of priesthood of Melchizedek

But for the above lies, particularly the ones in bold, we won’t be discussing this issue. I also noticed that our brothers conveniently shied away from confronting head on, the truths and facts below

1.Early Jewish Christians eligible to pay tithes would have paid BUT ONLY TO LEVITES at the temple because that’s what the law said (NOTHING TO DO WITH THEIR BEING CHRISTIANS) and they were zealous of the law and NOT TO THE APOSTLES as that would be transgression of the law they were said to be zealous about.

2.Gentile Christians were not expected to adhere to Mosaic law hence they NEVER paid tithes either to the Levites or to the apostles. THEY OPERATED ON THE BASIS OF FREEWILL OFFERINGS, NOT TITHES.

If the apostles DID NOT collect tithes, who gave the RIGHT to pastors of today to collect tithes from anybody? Where is the moral standing for them to condemn any child of God to hell because he/she refuses to submit 10% of his/her income to them? When the apostles whom God used to establish Christianity KNEW they had NO RIGHT under heaven to collect or ask for it and therefore DID NOT COLLECT OR ASK FOR IT?

If the pastors of today don’t know, the apostles and the early Christians sure knew these verses below

Numbers 18:24 But the tithes of the children of Israel, which they offer as an heave offering unto the LORD, I have given to the Levites to inherit: therefore I have said unto them, Among the children of Israel they shall have no inheritance.
Numbers 18:26 Thus speak unto the Levites, and say unto them, When ye take of the children of Israel the tithes which I have given you from them for your inheritance, then ye shall offer up an heave offering of it for the LORD, even a tenth part of the tithe.
Numbers 18:28 Thus ye also shall offer an heave offering unto the LORD of all your tithes, which ye receive of the children of Israel; and ye shall give thereof the LORD'S heave offering to Aaron the priest.

Isn’t it ironic that the tithers say, “You should write it, say it, affirm it and repeat it until it sinks, "We are not under the law" in this dispensation.” As if that is not what we’ve been telling them and everybody since this thread opened. It’s curious how they ‘attempt’ to say we’re not under the law but use the Law to justify their doctrine of tithes and use it to make people comply. If we are not under the law, why quote the verse below?

Mal 3:9 Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.

Why would God call non payment of tithes robbery if not that he gave an express and clear command in the law? Incase you’re still in doubt whether Malachi was talking about law or not, see what he said just 2 verses before the verse quoted above

Mal 3:7 Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from my ordinances, and have not kept them. Return unto me, and I will return unto you, saith the LORD of hosts. But ye said, Wherein shall we return?

God accused the Israelites of neglecting HIS ORDINANCES (I trust we don’t have to explain that ordinances are laws, commands, decrees), and they asked him how they’d done so to which he replied in verse 8 onwards. I trust all bible owners know the rest of the words of this favorite scripture of pastors. Tithing is a law of God enshrined in the law of Moses. It will be nice if our brothers can get that.

Our brothers say ‘’ Evidently, one main reason why this tithe was given was because of the service at the house of God’’ and we wonder if pastors are the only ones that serve at the house of God. What about the choristers? The sanctuary keepers? The gatemen? Can’t they receive the tithes too? However this particular line of thought is totally irrelevant to this discussion because the temple or tabernacle of the Jews IS TOTALLY UNRELATED to the assembly of the body of Christ. Candour and Mark are each temples of God just as Image and RhymeyJohn are also individually temples of God. Whatever building we chose to congregate remains exactly what it is: Just a building like any other building.

Our brothers say, “We learn from inspired scriptures, and instruct ourselves to give the tithe as a reward for the service in the house of God.” And we ask them ‘Did the apostles miss this all important lesson of tithe as a reward for work in the house of God? Thank God our brothers know that the church at Jerusalem comprised mainly Jews who were zealous of the law and they knew they shouldn’t pay tithes to the church or the apostles. The early church subsisted on freewill givings, donations or offerings (Acts 2:44-45, Acts 4:32-37,Acts 11:29-30, Rom 15:26-27 etc), NO PRESCRIBED PERCENTAGES. If the Jewish Christians didn’t pay tithes to the apostles, is it the Gentile Christians that did?

Christ Jesus did indeed make both Jews and Gentiles one(Eph 2:14) and the facts is, He abolished the ordinances as Ephesians 2:15 & Colossians 2:14 clearly state. Abolished, taken out of the way and nailed to the cross.

Once again, if our brothers DO NOT know when tithes entered Christian lexicon, we will tell them. The idea of Tithes to support the official clergy of the Roman catholic church was first mooted at council of Tours in 567AD and ratified in 585AD at the council of Macon(We can’t ignore history) and even then, it was STRICTLY FARM AND ANIMAL PRODUCE just as it was clearly stated in the law of Moses which they copied.

Our brothers state that “we are the Israel of God,” and we wonder if pastors have become the Levites in this Israel of God? I trust our brothers are good bible students (we all are bible students) and would know or should know about the coming kingdom when Christ will reign physically here on earth? It’s beyond the scope of this discussion but when they quote Isaiah 66, we expect them to know that it’s still a very future dispensation. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH US NOW. They quoted the verses below

Isa 66:12 For thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will extend peace to her like a river, and the glory of the Gentiles like a flowing stream: then shall ye suck, ye shall be borne upon her sides, and be dandled upon her knees.
Isa 66:20 And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the LORD, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD.
Isa 66:21 And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the LORD.

In case they don’t know, the bible wasn’t divided into chapters and verses until 1228AD by Stephen Langton, Archbishop of Canterbury for ease of reading (sorry, we can’t ignore history because the bible didn’t just fall from heaven. It was written at particular points in history and the bible itself did not ignore history). So when they pick verses from Isaiah 66, you might lose the context because the gist didn’t start there. It started earlier and we can get a correct picture from chapter 65

Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come to mind.

The question now is ‘has the new earth and new heaven been created? If read in context starting from Isa 65:17,You find that Isaiah 66 is speaking of the Millennial Dispensation which is still in the future and not the present Church age. Isaiah 66 says absolutely nothing of Gentile Converts in the Church age becoming Levites.

Our brother said, “A sincere study of the pentateuch shows that God chose the house of Levi to serve in the tabernacle AFTER He had said that the firstborns from every family would be the ones to serve.” How does this help the case that another person should be bold enough to appropriate the inheritance of the levites to himself today? God chose the Levites and willed his tithe to them, who are we to question that? Or rationalize that any other person can take it since he also does the work of God or works in our church meeting places today? I’ll really love our brothers to do another careful study and tell us if Prophet Elijah or Elisha had access to tithes? Were they not also doing the work of God?

God told Moses to number the firstborn males of Israel but he gave the service of the tabernacle to the Levites. From Exodus 27, where Aaron and his sons are said to be presiding over the Tabernacle and forward throughout the Law and the Prophets, it is the Levites who are over the House of God. That’s how God wanted it and it’s wise we left it like that

Our brothers said, “Some place in Samuel, during the time of Eli, God rescinded that decision. God is not constrained by man.” This is simply not true. Again, context of 1 Samuel 2 shows that what God rescinded was not the Levite serving in the Tabernacle, but rather it was the priest Eli and his family that God was removing from office. Note that Aaron had 4 sons(Ex 28:1) who all had equal rights to the priesthood but 2 died for offering strange fire to God(Lev 10:1). The 2 that lived all had plenty sons who also ALL had equal opportunity to be priests. If God removed Eli’s family, it doesn’t mean a total jettisoning of the Aaronic priesthood and surely not a removal of the Levites from temple service. God did not say Gentiles would rule the Tabernacle neither did he say any other tribe will take their place. From its inception till it’s destruction, the Tabernacle was always occupied by and served by Levites and God has not replaced them. Whosoever is interested in Levitical service and privileges should wait until the millennial reign. Even during David’s reign just some few years after Samuel died, the Sons of Aaron were still performing their duties. I Chronicles chapter 24 tells us clearly. The first 3 verses are below but you can read up subsequent verses

1 Chronicles 24:1-3 Now these are the divisions of the sons of Aaron; Nadab, and Abihu, Eleazar, and Ithamar.[2]But Nadab and Abihu died before their father, and had no children: therefore Eleazar and Ithamar executed the priest’s office.[3]And David distributed them, both Zadok of the sons of Eleazar, and Ahimelech of the sons of Ithamar, according to their offices in their service.

Also, read up the book of Ezra and Nehemiah(The two leaders of the exiles who came back from Babylon) and you’ll discover THERE WAS NEVER A TIME GOD TOOK TEMPLE SERVICE AWAY FROM LEVITES OR PRIESTHOOD FROM THE SONS OF AARON.

The Word of God says those who have begun in the Spirit are foolish to submit to the law to be perfected

Galatians 3:1-3 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Image123 wrote: “ Give more, give all the types of tithe known to you, observe all the feasts you can and obey all the Word you can.” This is the perfect example of cherry picking scripture. Is my brother asking us to obey the laws we can and dump the rest? Did Jesus ask the Pharisees to practice one tithe and neglect the others if they can’t? Did God give this option or are our fellow discussants arrogating powers they do not possess to themselves?

Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Who is teaching men to break one of these commandments? Those who teach rightly that the tithes were crops, livestock and meant to be given to the Levites, then widows, fatherless and strangers or those who teach monetary tithes and say it should be given to pastors to administer on God’s behalf?
In one instance, our brother said Christ fulfilled all the law and we ought to walk as he walked but now he’s saying we should observe the practices ‘we can’, what happened to 'fulfilling ALL righteousness' like they tried proving to us with this presentation?

If Christ did not come to close the door on tithes as our brothers claim, then why are they not walking in obedience to the commands that God gave concerning tithes? i.e., taking their tithes to the Levites (Pastors CAN NEVER be levites however the scripture is bent out of shape), eating their tithes at a feast at the temple city (note: hearing a sermon in church does not equate to eating the tithes like how some explain Mal 3:8-11), Giving tithes to the destitute (giving tithes to a Church does not equate to giving it to the less fortunate)

The true picture is that we don’t have to do any of those things. WE ARE NOT REQUIRED OR REMOTELY EXPECTED TO. We are Gentile Christians saved by grace NOT Jews practicing Judaism. To place ourselves in subjection to any part of the Mosaic/Levitical Law is to tempt God. To tell others to do the same is to tempt God. See Peter asking the Christian Pharisees and we ask our brethren today too

Acts 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

Image123 asked: “When the question is asked how could the early Christians have paid tithe? Very simple. How could early christians have being zealous of the law?” using Acts 21:20 as his reference. Now let us see that verse in its context to understand what ACTUALLY transpired

Acts 21:18-21 And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present. And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry. And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law: And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.

That reference clearly mentioned the Jews that believed as those zealous of the law, NOT GENTILE CHRISTIANS in Ephesus, Corinth, Thessalonica, Collosse, Nigeria, America, Mexico etc like you and i. They were zealous of the entire law like feast of Pentecost, feast of tabarnacles, circumcision, Sabbath etc. The Jews were concerned that Paul was telling the Jews among the gentiles to stop adhering to Moses. It wasn't about Gentile Christians. If they paid tithes, it would be those eligible to pay and IT WOULD NEVER HAVE BEEN TO ANY OF THE APOSTLES. NEVER. They knew what Moses said in the law therefore we can say without equivocation or fear of contradiction that They wouldn’t have paid it to the apostles and the apostles WOULDN’T HAVE DEMANDED IT of them except they were thieves and we all can agree they were not. That is about the Jews which believed and were zealous of the law. For the Gentile believers like you and I, see the conclusion of the matter in that same chapter and I pray our tithing brothers see this truth

Acts 21:25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

The leaders of the church at Jerusalem who were ALL JEWS concluded through the leading of the Holy Ghost (Acts 15:28) that the Laws of Moses were NEVER expected to be observed by the Gentile Churches. They were not taught by Paul or any of the 12 apostles or other church leaders at Jerusalem. Some overzealous Jewish brethren tried to coerce them into it but the church leaders at Jerusalem stopped the nonsense and rightly so. The practice of the ordinances of the law had become the identity of the Jews so they continued in them but they HAD NO RAMIFICATIONS on their new status as Christians and were even more IRRELEVANT to the Gentile converts who never had a relationship with Mosaic laws and ordinances in the first place according to the decision taken by the church leaders under the guidance of the Holy Ghost. At this point, we can safely conclude thus

1.Early Jewish Christians eligible to pay tithes would have paid BUT ONLY TO LEVITES at the temple because that’s what the law said and they were zealous of the law and NOT TO THE APOSTLES as that would be transgression of the law they were said to be zealous about.

2.Gentile Christians were not expected to adhere to Mosaic law hence they NEVER paid tithes either to the Levites or to the apostles. They operated on the basis of freewill offerings.

So when did the apostles and church leaders start collecting tithes from Christians, whether Jewish or Gentiles? It was the Catholics who enacted the tithe laws in Christiandom after the council of Macon held in 585AD and it was strictly farm and animal produce. This is verifiable history.

The discussion in Acts 21:18-25 proves clearly and without ambiguity that when Jesus spoke about Tithes in Matt 23:23, he was addressing folks still under Mosaic law. It had nothing to do with believers after the cross. Tithing wasn’t the only practice he asked them to uphold but ALL THE LAW the scribes and Pharisees asked them to observe. See the proof from scripture

Matt 23:1-3 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,[2]Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat:[3]All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

Our tithing brethren need to be reminded of this scripture they quoted

2Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the Scripture is of any private interpretation.

When they quote Matt 23:23 to prove tithes, they should remember Matt 23:1-3 that says they should obey all the law, not just pick the ones they can observe. When they quote Mal 3:8-11, they should remember Deut 14:22-29 They can however be free of this bondage and curse associated with not keeping all the law(Deut 27:26, James 2:10) if they realize that we Christians are not in any way expected to practice the law or it’s ordinances.

Again, the tithe advocates pull Matthew 3:15 out of context and apply it to a doctrine that can be found nowhere within the pages of God’s Holy Word. Nowhere does God say tithing is part of “fulfilling all righteousness.” That is a doctrine of man.

Acts 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

I think it’s important we once again remind our fellow discussants that we wouldn’t be discussing or arguing this issue but for the following fallacies and untruths that have been used to yoke children of God to mere men

1. If you don't tithe, you will burn in hell for ever.

2. Pay tithe so that you can be blessed, bask in good health, have husband, have children, plenty money, avoid calamity, accidents, sickness, financial tightness etc.

3. Pay tithe as eternal principle to prove Abraham is your father according to Gen 14 and Heb 7

4. Pay tithe to your pastor because he is senior to you in the order of priesthood of Melchizedek


END

RESPONSE TO RESPONSE R5



Christ DID NOT pay tithes and he broke no law by this simply because the law of tithes DID NOT apply to him since he was a carpenter (Mark 6:3), NOT a farmer or a herder. The ordinance of tithing did not and could not apply to Him. The ordinance of tithing clearly revealed what it was that God required to be tithed under the Law.

Leviticus 27:30-34 And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the LORD'S: it is holy unto the LORD. And if a man will at all redeem ought of his tithes, he shall add thereto the fifth part thereof. And concerning the tithe of the herd, or of the flock, even of whatsoever passeth under the rod, the tenth shall be holy unto the LORD. He shall not search whether it be good or bad, neither shall he change it: and if he change it at all, then both it and the change thereof shall be holy; it shall not be redeemed. These are the commandments, which the LORD commanded Moses for the children of Israel in mount Sinai.

The apostles DID NOT collect tithes from anybody because they WERE NOT LEVITES and they knew from THE LAW that they were not qualified to collect it. Remember they were NOT GREEDY neither were they COVETOUS. See the inheritors of the tithe God commanded from scripture

Numbers 18:24 But the tithes of the children of Israel, which they offer as an heave offering unto the LORD, I have given to the Levites to inherit: therefore I have said unto them, Among the children of Israel they shall have no inheritance.
Numbers 18:26 Thus speak unto the Levites, and say unto them, When ye take of the children of Israel the tithes which I have given you from them for your inheritance, then ye shall offer up an heave offering of it for the LORD, even a tenth part of the tithe.
Numbers 18:28 Thus ye also shall offer an heave offering unto the LORD of all your tithes, which ye receive of the children of Israel; and ye shall give thereof the LORD'S heave offering to Aaron the priest

Pagans paid tithes to kings centuries before Abraham gave tithes to Melchizedek (This is provable and has been proved from history) and they were still practicing it during Abraham’s time. However, by the time God gave the law to Moses for the children of Israel, tithes became strictly of Agric produce and Strictly for levites then widows, fatherless and strangers, NOT TO ANY KING or PRIEST (Priests received tithes from Levites, NOT from the general populace). Jesus and all Jews knew this so why do our brothers really think Jesus would tell someone to obey a Law that did not pertain to them? Or modify the law to suit their desires?

To use Matt 5:17 as proof that Jesus had to have tithed is proven to be fallacious. Jesus kept only the ordinances that pertained to Him. Some of the ordinances could not apply to Him. He was not a sinner, so He did not need to go to the Temple yearly with a sin offering. To take one to the Temple, He would be professing Himself a sinner and therefore unworthy to be the needed Sacrifice for the Redemption of mankind. A woman, after giving birth, was required to go to the Temple with sacrifices. Christ was not a woman, so that particular ordinance did not pertain to Him. Likewise, the tithe ordinance did not pertain to Him because he wasn’t a farmer nor a herder. We will remind our brothers again that NOT ALL PRACTICES IN THE BIBLE AUTOMATICALLY APPLY TO CHRISTIANS because the cross made and still makes a very big difference.

Jesus would surely have been a laughingstock had He told a carpenter, a fisherman, a brickmason, a tentmaker, etc., that they were to tithe. Also it’s important to note that The tithes were to be eaten by all beneficiaries, NOT SPENT on temple buildings, buying clothes or chariots for the temple operators as modern tithe collectors claim they use the tithes to run the gospel, build cathedrals or buy TV/Radio time

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

All Scripture is inspired. It is profitable but to apply it in a manner that it is not to be applied is to handle deceitfully the Word of God. The funny thing is, tithing advocates don’t focus on the entire truth concerning the tithe God commanded. They instead cherry-pick one particular truth; i.e., “The tithe is the Lord’s,” and then proceed to build a doctrine off of that without applying the rest of the details that God has given concerning tithes and they happily proclaim they’ve fulfilled all righteousness. If water had been sprinkled on Jesus like some do today in the name of baptism, would he have taken it as fulfilling all righteousness? The answer is NO. Baptism is immersion and he obeyed it fully. If you want to preach and practice tithe, please preach and practice the entire truth about the Tithe.

Psalms 12:6 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.

Sadly, some take those words and corrupt them with the doctrines and traditions of man and Christ was vehement in his condemnation of this practice

Matt 15:7-9 Ye Hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,[8]This people draweth nigh unto me with mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.[9]But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

The plain truth is that the tithe preached and practiced in most churches today has no single resemblance or similarity to the tithe God instituted when he gave Moses the law.

Our tithing brothers ask if our obedience is also complete and we say a big YES because our obedience is not based on the Mosaic law but on the law of Christ which is simply LOVE for one another (John 13:34-35). As Christians, we have been brought into a new dispensation. We are not required to keep the Sabbath. We are not required to keep the feasts. We are not required to keep any of the Old Testament Law. Our tithing brothers believe they NEED to fulfill all righteousness hence they tithe and MAYBE keep Sabbath( I honestly hope they know the ramifications of keeping the sabbath) but I still wonder what happens to feast of tabernacles and others. Our brother said ‘i'm not sure, i've not seen anybody whose obedience is complete’ and I say, YOU’LL NEVER FIND SOMEBODY WHOSE OBEDIENCE TO THE LAW IS COMPLETE because no one can. We’ve just proved to them that they even fail horribly in the tithe they claim to keep yet they tell us they are fulfilling all righteousness. See what some early Jewish Christians told gentile converts like you and i

Acts 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved

Then some ‘knowledgeable’ Christian Pharisees came with their own

Acts 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses

But hear what apostle Peter (himself an ardent believer in the law,Acts 10:14,28) said

Acts 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

Now hear the conclusion from James, the leader of the Jerusalem council with the approval of the Holy Ghost

Acts 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
Acts 15:28-29 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;[29]That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well

Is tithing a component of the laws of Moses? YES. Then Gentile Christians had and still have no business with it. If I give today, it’s not because it’s in the law; its because its my new nature to give. If I don’t steal, fornicate, Kill, bear false witness, exhibit covetousness, its not because it’s in the law. IT’S BECAUSE MY NEW NATURE AS A CHRISTIAN ABHORS THESE PRACTICES.

If it seemed good to the holy Ghost not to lay the burden of the law on Christians, who has the right and permission to?

Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Galatians 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
James 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Abraham was not called righteous or the Friend of God because he tithed the spoils of war to Melchizedek. No, he was called righteous, the Friend of God because he believed God.

The Law is holy and good but it is also a ministration of death. Those who insist on living by the Law are setting themselves up to stand before the Father at the Great White Throne Judgment with no merit whatsoever. Scripture says those who choose to walk in the Law are cursed if they do not continue in all the Law.

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all
things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

The tithers see tithing as a good thing to do and are careful to point out that “the Law is good and holy.” Yet this Law that they see as good and holy” teaches an entirely different tithe than the tithe they are clearly placing within the confines of the Law. They say they do not tithe because the tithe is part of the Law, but as clearly demonstrated by their present presentation, they constantly attempt to justify the tithe by using the Law. This is clearly double standards.

The Word of God demands that if they are going to rely on the Law, they must keep the entire Law … or be cursed. The tithe that Scripture consistently tells people to do is not this modern day monetary tithe which Image123/rhymeyjohn are teaching. See the high points of the tithe which the law teaches and commands and which Christ asked the Pharisees to do in Matt 23:23

1. The tenth of livestock and crops to be eaten by the tither, his family and others at the yearly feast in Jerusalem (Deut 14:22-26)

2. Another tenth of livestock and the tenth of crops paid to the Levites, not priests, prophets or pastors even though we had abundance of these class of people when isreal eventually settled in canaan.(Num 18:21,24)

3. Another tenth every three years to the Levites, widows, fatherless and strangers(Deut 14-28-29)

4. A tenth from the tenth the Levites receive from the isrealites to be given to the priests (Num 18:26-28, Neh 10:38)

Does what they do and preach today resemble any of the above? How then can they claim the law is good and holy yet teach an ordinance contrary to what the law says and then claim they're fulfilling all righteouness? What are the good works in using the Law to justify tithing and then practicing the tithing contrary to the Law?



1Ti 6:18 That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate;
Titus 3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.
Heb 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:

The three verses above were quoted by our brothers, but they have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with tithing as a good work. the lesson to be learnt from those scriptures is doing good to people around and being ready to be generous with our resources and that is exactly what every Christian should preach. That is what the early church lived by. they gave to meet the needs of the less priviledged in their midst. The ministry of every Christian is giving to meet needs not tithing to fulfill all righteousness.

Acts 2:45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as everyman had need.

Matt 25:40 And the king shall answer and say unto them, Verily i say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Read Matt 25 from verse 31 to know the heart of Christ about meeting needs of destitute folks. God did not hide his mind about giving, Christ did not hide his mind about it and the apostles and early Christians showed how serious they were about it. The slogan is give as much as you're able and it was always about meeting needs, NOT TO FULFILL ALL RIGHTEOUSNESS


Again, Image123/rhymeyjohn infer that tithing is in obedience to God’s Word when they equate it to good works and then say “good works is obedience to God.” And where can one find tithing as something that God want’s one to “obey”? That’s right… in the Law. While they say one doesn’t tithe because of the Law, they consistently run back to the Law to demonstrate that they tithe because they want to be obedient. In order to tithe because of obedience, one must find the command to tithe. That command is in the Law.

Throughout the Old Testament, people were instructed to do things, and they were expected to obey those instructions but today, we live in a new covenant. We are not told to obey the instructions given to the Jews living in Israel. God has written in His Word what He expects of His children today concerning giving and it's in our interest to search it out and learn so we can come to the knowledge of the truth.


Balanced diet is good…providing that which is in the diet is what is good for the person. Since the Word of God reveals that tithing was
abolished, nailed to the cross, how can one put it in his daily spiritual diet? What God shutteth, no man openeth. Tithing was abolished with ALL OTHER ORDINANCES. Therefore It is not obedience to tithe. Rather, it is rebellion and disobedience.




END

REBUTTING R5



Image123 has stated, “we strongly believe that a righteous man should do good works.” To which, we wholeheartedly agree. He also said we ought to walk as Christ walked, to which we also agree. However from our bible studies and our understanding of the Jewish laws, ordinances etc that Christ did, can any Christian honestly say Christ paid tithes? Can any honest pastor say Christ collected Tithes? If not, then whose example are our tithe propagating brothers following? In whose steps are the tithe collecting pastors walking? Once again we need to remind our brothers that NOT ALL PRACTICES IN THE BIBLE AUTOMATICALLY APPLY TO CHRISTIANS otherwise we'll have to remind them of other good works which they DO NOT DO like feast of Pentecost, feast of tabernacles, Sabbath observance (which was the first 'good work' instituted by God at creation) etc. If they don't do all these, then their obedience is incomplete and their righteousness is unfulfilled. Jesus attended the feast of booths or tabernacles(John 7:2-10), do our tithing brethren fulfill this righteous and good work too? or do they simply pick and choose which 'good work' is beneficial, materially profitable, convenient and elevate it to a compulsory status for themselves and other believers?

Anybody can decide to practice tithing like our brothers here profess to do, anybody can observe sabbath like the SDA do, anybody can observe the feast of tabernacles like the GKS do, anybody can insist on wearing only white to fellowship like the CCC and C&S do, it's their prerogative but they shouldn't be smuggled into the status of a requirement or obligation for Christians under the guise and illusion of 'fulfilling all righteousness'. Once again, NOT ALL PRACTICES IN THE BIBLE AUTOMATICALLY APPLY TO CHRISTIANS.

See what apostle Paul said

Ephesians 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Christ has abolished the LAW OF COMMANDMENTS CONTAINED IN ORDINANCES of which tithing is one, so why would any Christian want to rebel by cutting a part, modifying it to suit some pecuniary considerations and brandish it as obligatory and required of Christians? Is that not working AGAINST that which Christ has done? Is working against what Christ has done really to be called “good works”?

Concerning the “putting the cart before the horse” thought, I sincerely believe when one attempts to tithe, one is holding onto a past that
Christ does not want us to hold on to. The tithe is a thing of the past. It was not for the Gentile Converts. It was for the Jewish farmers and herders in Israel. And it was cancelled out, abolished when Christ became the atoning sacrifice for our sins on the cruel cross.

The following truths and facts are worthy of note

1. Jesus did not pay tithes and would NEVER have received tithes when he was on earth because he was not from the tribe of Levi.

2. The apostles would NEVER have received tithes because non was a Levite serving at the Temple. We at least know Paul was a Benjaminite.

They all knew what the law says. Remember the law and temple were in full operation then and the Levitical priesthood was still in charge. We can confidently say here that if they had tried collecting tithes from any body, the Jews would have STONED THEM TO DEATH (sure we all know how fanatical the Jews were about the law) because it would have been Sacrilege and usurpation of the duties and rights of the Levites.

The question now comes, how could the early Christians have paid tithe? who would they have paid it to? Who were the churches founded by Paul paying tithes to? For anyone to say early Christians paid tithes to Paul or any of the apostles will be OUT-RIGHTLY LYING and DELIBERATING PEDDLING FALSEHOOD which i trust our fellow discussants here would not want to indulge in even remotely.


Mat 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfill all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

The above scripture cannot be used to justify the act of tithing today without pulling it out of its Scriptural context and twisting its meaning. The verse is concerning water baptism. Jesus was not saying allow me to tithe, for thus it fulfilleth all righteousness. To apply Matthew 3:15 to reason one tithes is saying righteousness cannot be fulfilled unless one tithes and our tithing brethren have been vehement that they know and agree that Tithes DOESN'T JUSTIFY us before God. Of course, we agree that faith in Christ is the only thing that one needs to be made righteous. Tithing will not add to righteousness, feast of Pentecost will not, feast of tabernacles will not, sabbath observance will not neither will circumcision or any of the other 'good works' or practices, So why hold on to tithing as if it's important, necessary or relevant? The apostles did not, the early church did not. It wasn't until 585AD that the Roman Catholics mooted the idea and it wasn't until 787AD that they made it a part of their canon and even at that, it was strictly from agric produce and livestock. Not until 1873AD did American Christians start collecting monetary tithes (and it was even with some restrictions). Anyway, that is discussion for another day.

Hello everyone.

Our response will be coming in late as i'm having some challenges with my connections.

Will hopefully get it rectified before end of tommorow.

Pls bear with Mark and I.

@Woged2005 God bless you my sister.

Cultist ko babalawo ni. What nonsense indeed.

@OP, How can you allow one shameless guy put you and your family on the edge simply because he has the 'almighty guts' to claim membership of amorc? You too claim illuminatti na if you have little or no faith even after all your midnight prayers.

Pls he can do nothing. If he had powers, he won't be sharing the same compound with you. He's just a desperate man on heat like a dog and isn't worth the fear you have towards him.

The case doesn't even need prayers. Just tell him off, report to his wife and even his relatives if you can contact them. Get a lawyer to write a petition on your behalf to the police authorities and you'll see him scamper. Your hubby shouldn't let this mumu get away with this affront on your dignity. Haba!!

That is how one guy in my office thought I should be paying homage to him because he's a member of Eckanker (he didn't know my closest cousin has been an eckist for over 25 years hence I'd read every thing readable about them from his book shelf), after some few weeks of working together, he knew even if he was wearing Satan like a shirt, he had no choice but to be afraid of me. He now tries all he can to avoid me and if not possible, he ensures he's extra nice whenever we have reason to partner on any project.

Kick out that fear and kick this clown out of your life and thoughts.

Image123: Presenting R5 would be coming rather late and most likely in bits. Schedules have being quite engaging and may remain so till after the christmas. Wanted to propose ta break yesterday, even thought i sent it. However , i think i can still manage without the break so as not to inconvenience anyone. Only that respnses may be coming in late and from mobile phone. Thanks. R5 would be in today by God's grace.

Hi Image, don't worry jare. Its the Christmas season and my own schedule too has gone wacko. Instead of sending your post in bits, I'll advise you take your time and get it together to help us plan the response too. I'm sure everybody will understand.

I assure you that I do.

Cheers

Mark will post our response soon. I am the cause of the delay and I apologise.

Thanks

REBUTTAL TO R4



If there is no condemnation for paying tithes, the logical question that should follow is 'is there any condemnation for NOT paying tithes?

We wouldn't be discussing this topic today but for the following judgments and condemnation passed on non tithers by pastors who collect tithes and some church members who pay tithe.

1.If you don't tithe, you're a robber and will go to hell because its a sin not to pay tithe.

2.If you don't pay tithes, you will be visited by devourers who will attack your finances, health, career, marriage, growth etc.

3.You cannot prosper as a Christian if you don't pay tithe.


We can end this discussion if our fellow discussants can boldly and confidently say the above statements are lies that negate the gospel of the grace of God that saves you and I today and why shouldn't they be able to say it? After all, they've said we are no longer under the law and we agree with them. They've said there is no compulsion, and we agree with them. They said tithing cannot justify anybody before God, and we agree with them, so why should they not condemn those three lies above?

Infact our brother said tithe is not Moses' patent which means they don't tithe because of Moses but follow Abraham's example. Which is good because they've also said examples can be followed but they are not laws for the general populace for all time and we agree with them on this also. So why can't they condemn those three falsehoods above? Well we can, and we will with the help of the word of God.

Galatians 3:24-25 KJV
Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. [25] But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

The law is no longer our school master. It has concluded its work as it has chased us to Christ to whom we've come to drop our yoke and bondage in exchange for liberty to be led by the spirit. The law insists on the Sabbath, grace allows me choose my day of rest or worship. The law says a minister in the tabernacle CANNOT have an inheritance, Grace says we all are ministers of the covenant and are not yoked to any earthly temple but free indeed. The law says a tenth must be given to the Levites(who have no inheritance), Grace says as I purpose in my heart, so I give. Grace allows me and you this freedom because of the scripture below

Romans 10:4 KJV
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

My righteousness is of Christ. I have none of my own.

Romans 8:1 KJV
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

There's no condemnation to us who are in Christ so we refuse a mere mortal dictate how we give to our needy brethren and our God. No man or pastor is holy enough to stand in the place of the holy spirit to decree how we give. No practice, ritual or ordinance can condemn us. We are led by the Spirit in everything we do including giving and if the holy spirit is leading us indeed, let's stop suggesting 10% to him. That is trying to force the flesh on the spirit. The early Christians in Acts of the Apostles gave up everything to be shared among the needy that were in the church and I dare say it went a longer way than any 10% could have. The difference is that they gave willingly.

God gave up the best of heaven already for us according to this verse

Romans 8:32 KJV
He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

So why do we need to pay him a tenth before he blesses us? Brethren, the cross made a lot of difference.


If there's no condemnation for not observing Sabbath, then there's none for not tithing. If there's no condemnation for not observing feast of weeks, there's none for not tithing. If there's no condemnation for not burning an offering like Abraham's example, then there's ABSOLUTELY none for not tithing.


Tithing today is indeed a burden. Many pastors today devour widows houses by requiring the tithe of them. Mark's widowed mother is a perfect example of one whose house is devoured by the false doctrine of the monetary tithe. Eighty-seven years old, unable to attend services any more, Yet her pastor calls her the first of every month to remind her he is dropping by her house to collect her tithes. This makes her tithe more important than her presence at fellowship because obviously tithe paying 'is the safest thing to do' in his Christianity. A practice that God’s Word clearly is against.

Matthew 23:14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.

Yes, the tithe is indeed a burden that greedy people have capitalized on to fleece and tie helpless people to a yoke.


What exactly does the injunction, “It is the safest thing to do” mean? It clearly means our fellow discussants believe those who don't tithe are not safe from any of the condemnations listed above. It reveals that the reader is to tithe to be safe, or to expect calamity from God for not tithing. This is simply fear mongering and Christians will do well to internalize the scriptures below

Romans 8:15 KJV
For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

2 Timothy 1:7 KJV
For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

Christians, don't let fear rule you for there is no condemnation to those who walk according to the Spirit. However tithing because “it is the safest thing to do” is not walking according to the Spirit but living in bondage of not knowing whether you're accepted by God or not. It is acting according to the flesh and shows a life devoid of the spirit of God. God took away the condemnation when we trusted Christ and it would be a shame to put ourselves again under that yoke. The bible said we are already blessed with all spiritual blessings

Ephesians 1:3 KJV
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

Christians need to walk in this consciousness. We are blessed already and its wrong to say you must tithe to be blessed as a Christian.

Our fellow discussants state again that we are not under the Law, yet the Law is the only place one can place oneself under if one chooses to tithe to be “safe.” The ordinances were taken away. That includes the ordinance of tithing. There is not one iota of Scripture in the Word of God that says we are to tithe today…not one, therefore we can't agree with the man-made notion that tithing “is the safest thing to do.” Christians are enjoined to give generously and freely to our needy brethren and other worthy causes that please God, Its in our interest to stick with this admonition.


If there is no command to tithe, why would tithing be “the safest thing to do”? If some choose to follow Abraham's example of tithing, when did it become a law for all Christians?



END

Wait o...is this not Inalegwu Egwa? A staff of first bank that crossed to Oceanic bank makurdi in 2008?

How did he pull this off?

My goodness....see change of levelsss...

Time to reawaken old friendship lines i guess

Image123: Sabbath things. no wahala at all.

Sabbath ke?? Not at all bro.....Just fellowship things I tell you but Mark has even put my request to shame already by beating the original deadline.

Cheers

Thanks Image123 for your post.

@moderators, we'll get in our response 7pm tommorow by God's grace. We crave your indulgence.

Thank you

Image123: Good job Candour. i'm to keep a vigil tonight and would not be chanced. i've being in touch with Rhymej through mail and he's likely to send our response soon. If however that does not happen, please we will be sending both the response and our presentation of R3 within the 12 hours given to R3 i.e if we do not send the response before 7am, we will send both the response and R3 presentation before 7pm saturday. Thanks for your patience and understanding.

No problems at all. wish you all the best

cheers

RESPONSE TO REBUTTAL OF M2

It will be very incorrect to say we have remotely insinuated that any part of scripture should not be regarded. We have consistently affirmed that all scripture is profitable. What we say is that not all scripture can be used as a basis for Christian doctrine or as applicable to Christians. I’m sure our fellow discussants will agree with this otherwise we would want to know how many practices contained in the five books of the Pentateuch can be used for Christian doctrinal teachings? There are lessons to be learnt from them no doubt but we should be careful lest we be found to be putting new wine into an old wine skin and end up losing both. Rightly dividing the word of truth is very important indeed.

Also, it is imperative we know Abraham started out as a pagan before God called him. The verse below tells us that exactly
Joshua 24:2 KJV
And Joshua said unto all the people, Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, Your fathers dwelt on the other side of the flood in old time, even Terah, the father of Abraham, and the father of Nachor: and they served other gods.

And even though he obeyed God by moving out (Gen 12:4), even though he built an altar to God (Gen 12:8 ) and even gave tithes to Melchizedek (Gen 14:20), the first time God confirmed Abraham a believer hence righteous by faith is below
Genesis 15:6 KJV
And he believed in the Lord ; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

And only then, infact that very day could God make his glorious covenant with Abraham
Genesis 15:18 KJV
In the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:

Just like God adopts and places us in the body of Christ today only when we believe no matter how many works we do in his name or how many church services we attend prior. Jacob also was not a believer when God met him and promised to do all he had promised his fathers in earlier years. God introduced himself as the God of his fathers (Gen 28:12) but see Jacob’s response
Genesis 28:20-21 KJV
And Jacob vowed a vow, saying, If God will be with me, and will keep me in this way that I go, and will give me bread to eat, and raiment to put on, [21] So that I come again to my father's house in peace; then shall the Lord be my God:

God would only become God in his life if God fulfills all the conditions he gave God. This makes it very obvious that young Jacob had no time for God before now even though he had fathers who knew God personally and must have introduced God to him just as it is with some Christians today and their children that do not have time for God despite their parents fervency.

Abraham gave tithes of spoils of war to a High Priest but by the time Moses gave the law, it had been modified in every way. Israel didn’t give to the high priest, they gave to the Levites, then widows, fatherless and strangers. Spoils of war were not acceptable as tithe because God gave a different law concerning war and sharing of spoils accruing from it
Numbers 31:21 KJV
And Eleazar the priest said unto the men of war which went to the battle, This is the ordinance of the law which the Lord commanded Moses;

Read Num 31:21-54 to get the full story. If the men of war had brought a tithe of war spoils to the Lord, IT WOULD HAVE BEEN REJECTED because God had a different plan for spoils of war under Mosaic law. Abraham’s type of tithe to Melchizedek was NO LONGER ACCEPTABLE TO GOD. The same way Animal sacrifices ceased to count with God when Christ died. Same God but different method of operation and that is why we need to know what God’s plan is for us and not go adopting practices that applied in other dispensations but not in this time of Grace.

Genesis 17:9-10 KJV
And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations. [10] This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.

In the above verse, we see God give a command on circumcision to Abraham with a clear directive that all male children in his generations to come MUST adhere to this instruction and COMMAND. It was the cornerstone of the covenant God signed with Abraham and became the cardinal law and distinguishing factor for every male Jew or Israelite. We find no such command for Tithes to Abraham (Abram did a one-off with Melchizedek) and it will be adding to scripture to say with confidence that Abraham instructed his children to tithe. There is no record of Isaac tithing but there is a record of him being circumcised (Gen 21:4) and of his offspring continuing the practice even with venom and aggression (Gen 34:13-15).

Jacob’s vow to tithe is clearly an attempt to curry favour from God and we wouldn’t be arguing about tithing today if preachers tell their flock this truth. Hannah vowed to give her child to God’s service if he blesses her with one. After she fulfilled her vow, God opened her womb and she had five more children after Samuel but we would be lying if we said she took all five to give to God again as she did with Samuel because a vow is a one off transaction and she had fulfilled it. Jacob’s vow was too.

See his complete statement and vow

Genesis 28:20-22 KJV
And Jacob vowed a vow, saying, If God will be with me, and will keep me in this way that I go, and will give me bread to eat, and raiment to put on, [21] So that I come again to my father's house in peace; then shall the Lord be my God:[22]And this stone, which I have set for a pillar, shall be God's house: and of all that thou shalt give me I will surely give the tenth unto thee.

He will ONLY give the tithe if God fulfilled those conditions. It is not an assumption to say tithing was not a regular practice of Jacob; It is the plain truth. He spent 20 years in Syria with Laban but he said he’ll give the tithe WHEN God brings him back to his father’s house. Are we allowed to treat tithes like that today? Will whoever decides to treat tithe the same way Jacob did his not be branded lawless, unrighteous and unjust? Do we think God saw Jacob as lawless for not paying tithes for 20 years? For our fellow discussants to say that Jacob practiced tithing as a lifestyle, they have to do the very thing that they accuse us of…basing doctrine on assumptions and not written facts.

Tithing may not be Moses’ patent, but as pointed out, When God gave Moses the tithe laws, all other forms of tithes by people of God ceased and specific beneficiaries of the tithes were named. Tithes had become exclusively of the law. What type is applicable to Christians today? Abraham’s? Jacob’s? Mosaic? If it’s none of these, when did God change it and what is the new system? We need to be sure to avoid adding to God’s word.

NOT ALL PRACTICES IN THE BIBLE AUTOMATICALLY APPLY TO CHRISTIANS

END

DrummaBoy: Considering the time Image123 posted the Rebuttal to M2, Miwerds and Candour are to |Respond to this by 12 noon today; except they request for more time.

Thanks.

Haba!! Moderator, Image only posted @ 5.30am and 12 hours after will be 5.30pm. Abi is the rule no longer 12 hours in between posts?

Anyway, we will get in our response before 7pm today.

Thanks a lot

I tender my apologies if i made our fellow discussants look bad. It sure wasn't intentional. I won't start making excuses but would want to affirm that i'm as interested in making this discussion as clean and rancour free as possible and so would not want to deliberately derail the flow, mutual respect and maturity we've all displayed so far.

Once again, i apologise

Sweetlemon: I don't know why people equate financial generosity with being caring.

Please abeg. They are two different things entirely. Can you call a rich man who lavishes money on a lady but has done juju to take her womb, destiny, etc away from her "caring"

Please money is just one of the ways of showing that you care. A man who cares about a woman does not even want to see her hurt, not to talk of being the cause of her pain!

Ladies get that into your skulls!

This sister talk true plenty.

Girls with cheap mentality equate lavishing money with care. He cares so much yet doesn't mind causing her pain and tears? true he might change, but what if he doesn't? why take the chance?

I have a former colleague crying into my ears every week about the beast her generous fiancee turned husband has become. She just confessed now that she didn't really know him and was only enthralled by all the beautiful places he took her to and the rich home he came from. She's begging for a divorce now but the guy will have none of it. He's turned a very bold, boisterous and funny lady to a docile, depressed and fearful woman afraid of everything, even her shadow.

Very pitiful

Our brother said the following in his response 'Like i initially EMPHASIZED, God's law is not used for righteousness or salvation or justification. Man's obedience or study of God's law is not what brings salvation or justification.' If my brother truly believes this, then why quote this verse below to declare us unjust and unrighteous?

Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

Then again go ahead and say this 'It's your choice to make'?



That is a big contradiction but the truth is that this contradiction can't be helped. Tithe advocates know in their heart of hearts that Tithes is a part of the law (even though they'll have you believe otherwise) hence can't refrain from calling you unrighteous or unjust for not practicing it.

Thank God, we have something better. The finished work on the cross disannulled the law because the law had no power to make anybody perfect (Heb 7:18-19) hence Paul could say the following

Romans 10:4 KJV
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Christ ended the law when he declared it was finished on the cross of Calvary and it's in our best interest to believe him. He has made us free from the law by making us dead to it (Rom 7:4) therefore we are free from bondage according to this verse

Galatians 5:1 KJV
Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

why then do our brethren insist on going back to the bondage that even the Jews in their glory couldn’t bear (Acts 15:10)? when its obvious they even break, disregard and mock the law they are trying to keep? Is it an attempt to fall from grace? Gal 5:4 says that's what we are doing if we try to get justified by practicing the law.

The law says the Sabbath is holy and if a man so much as picks sticks on the sabbath, he should be stoned to death, but grace allows me to rest or worship God on anyday i choose. The law says a male child must be circumcised otherwise he shall be cut off from the congregation of the people of God but grace says circumcision is worthless and avails nothing hence strictly my choice. The law says 10% to Levites, 10% for feast for my family and i and 10% to the destitute, but grace says i should love my fellow man like myself hence if he needs my 90%, i can give if i'm able to.No compulsion, No cajoling, No threats of hell or devourer. Freewill and liberty to do as the spirit leads just like the early Christians in Acts 2:45 and Acts 4:34-35. The Tithe law says all those who minister in the sanctuary and benefit from tithes MUST HAVE NO INHERITANCE but grace allows all who can to do so whether minister or members.

Love for one another is the new law Christ gave the Disciples (John 17:34-35) and it was re-echoed by Paul (Rom 13:8-10), James (James 2:8 ). See what John the beloved had to say

1 John 3:22-23 KJV
And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. [23] And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

His commandment is to Love one another, not pay tithe. If you love your teacher/pastor, you'll give to him(Gal 6:6). If you love your neighbour , you'll give to him if he needs(1 John 3:17). If you Love Christ, you'll give to the destitute(Matt 25:35-40), NOT PAY TITHES to a pastor.
Our brethren who preach the tithe statute as necessary/compulsory part of Christian worship dont regard the law of God at all. All they do is disregard it, belittle it and mock it. Remember 1 Timothy 1:8

END

RESPONSE TO RESPONSE OF REBUTTAL R2

The Pharisee in the parable of Jesus said ‘I give tithes of all I possess’. Our brothers who insist on tithing look to this verse for support when preaching tithe and also use it to affirm that Jesus endorsed tithing for the Christian thereby condemning those who don’t. The problem with their position relative to this verse is that the Pharisee knew to whom God said he should give the tithes but our brethren seem not to be sure. Some say they give to Jesus, Some say Melchizedek, Some say Pastors, Some say the church and some say the altar. But do we have to grope in the dark about this simplest of information? It’s in the bible actually; in more than one place and I reproduce them here for all to see

Numbers 18:21 KJV
And, behold, I have given the children of Levi all the tenth in Israel for an inheritance, for their service which they serve, even the service of the tabernacle of the congregation.
Numbers 18:23-24 KJV
But the Levites shall do the service of the tabernacle of the congregation, and they shall bear their iniquity: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations, that among the children of Israel they have no inheritance. [24] But the tithes of the children of Israel, which they offer as an heave offering unto the Lord , I have given to the Levites to inherit: therefore I have said unto them, Among the children of Israel they shall have no inheritance.
Deuteronomy 14:22-23 KJV
Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year. [23] And thou shalt eat before the Lord thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to fear the Lord thy God always.
Deuteronomy 14:28-29 KJV
At the end of three years thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase the same year, and shalt lay it up within thy gates: [29] And the Levite, (because he hath no part nor inheritance with thee,) and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, which are within thy gates, shall come, and shall eat and be satisfied; that the Lord thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hand which thou doest.
Nehemiah 10:37-38 KJV
And that we should bring the firstfruits of our dough, and our offerings, and the fruit of all manner of trees, of wine and of oil, unto the priests, to the chambers of the house of our God; and the tithes of our ground unto the Levites, that the same Levites might have the tithes in all the cities of our tillage. [38] And the priest the son of Aaron shall be with the Levites, when the Levites take tithes: and the Levites shall bring up the tithe of the tithes unto the house of our God, to the chambers, into the treasure house.

Brethren, with all the scriptures above, are you still in the dark about the identity of the TRUE owners of the tithes as decreed by God himself? You can only be if you decide the dark is where you want to be.

Does the tithe practiced today remotely resemble any of the verses reproduced above? The honest answer is no. What is done today in the name of tithing is a sham; The practitioners indeed treat the laws of God with contempt and make mockery of a practice instituted by God almighty with a specific purpose and clear as daylight instructions.

Paul under inspiration said the below

1 Timothy 1:8 KJV
But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;

Our brothers say 'The Bible NEVER says that the law is only good when a man uses it lawfully'? Does that mean the law is also good when a man decides to use it unlawfully? Is that not trying to look for loopholes to explore in the bible translations?

I'm glad my brother talks so much about the law. It shows he has high regards for it. I'll also reproduce a verse he quoted

James 1:23 KJV
'For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:

some few verses down, the apostle said this

James 2:10 KJV
'For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all'

Let me paraphrase 'if you keep all the tithe laws, and unlawfully deny the lawful beneficiaries their dues, YOU'RE GUILTY OF ALL THE LAW' because proper administration and distribution are also part of the law.

See what happened to some people who decide to use the law the way they saw fit and not the way God intended

Leviticus 10:1-2 KJV
And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the Lord , which he commanded them not. [2] And there went out fire from the Lord , and devoured them, and they died before the Lord .

They died because they offered strange fire which God commanded them not. If God doesn't command it, don't do it. If he does, do it properly otherwise consequences could be dire.

Hear Paul again

1 Timothy 1:8 KJV
But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;

Please, use the law lawfully because it's not a mirror but even if it's a mirror, the Tithe practice today is a very poor and horribly distorted reflection of the Original tithe laws instituted by God. We do not look at the Law with open face... we look at the Glory of the Lord. It's there in the very Scripture that our brothers referenced:

2 Corinthians 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

2 Corinthians 3:18 is not telling us to go to the Law at all. It is telling us to look to Christ. The just shall live by faith, not by the Law because the law is an unbearable yoke (Acts 15:10) and a hard schoolmaster (Gal 3:24) and no man can be justified by doing it (Rom 3:20).

For our brethren who insist on regarding the law, it's wise and prudent to at least stay true to it otherwise all they practice is a false worship.

I think I understand what Rhymeyjohn is saying and I concur with him. DrummaBoy wants a robust discussion that leaves no stone unturned but I think we all are at Liberty to do or not. Whatever we leave out will surely be asked by the audience in due course so let's not make a law on it.

We all are free to treat them like Mark has done or wait till questions arise. There's liberty in Christ and there is on this thread too.

We will get the response in before 6pm today

Thank you