₦airaland Forum

Gombs: [s]Keep circling, when you done, answer this

asides Jesus, did the rest Bible heroes had premonitions about their deaths?

Cheers[/s]

See me cancel yours too. So nice to get in the act.

Keep recycling and remixing your ideas too while I keep pointing out the errors therein.

Gombs: ^^
Was God mistaken when He sent Isaiah to Hezekiah?
See, God passed a judgement on Hezekiah, Hezekiah pleaded his case, using faith and activating God's principles, and it worked, cos God can't break His Word and principles...
Isaiah 41:21
Produce your cause, saith the LORD; bring forth your strong reasons, saith the King of Jacob.


That's God’s principles, Isaiah wrote it, same Isaiah whomwent to Hezekiah, however, Hezekiah activated that principle in faith, God had to respond, But note, the man refused to die, he rejected death sentence by pleading his case.

That is in no way answer to my question
asides Jesus, did the rest Bible heroes had premonitions about their deaths?
Note, atheists or muslims etc could have premonitions, if they could, what then is the basis of the deaths of these Heroes? Are the natural man's way of death same as the man in God?

See what Hezekiah did

2 Kings 20:2-3 KJV
Then he turned his face to the wall, and prayed unto the Lord , saying, [3] I beseech thee, O Lord , remember now how I have walked before thee in truth and with a perfect heart, and have done that which is good in thy sight. And Hezekiah wept sore.

Surely Hezekiah knew better than to engage in the braggadocio on display here.

Did Hezekiah decide the additional years or he begged God, Weep sorely and plead for mercy before God granted his request or not?

Did God let him have his way or he decided to show mercy?

@Gombs, you've taken the liberty to arrive at the conclusion you feel is correct from my posts so I'll take the liberty to do same to yours.

Your intention was to further your belief that you're equal to Jesus since he called us brethren and can do exactly as he did. This was to help you further your 'godhood' theory. You've boxed yourself into a corner and you've suddenly remembered to put the bold in the quote below

Gombs: ....... they decide when it's time to check out...Time the Father has ordained.

Anyway, thank God for his mercies.

Time the father has ordained=God decides the time.

I don't think this should be hard to realise.


Also, you've quoted verse 18 of the scripture below at least twice on this thread

John 10:17-18 KJV
Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. [18] No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

Do you really believe the above applies to Christians? You really believe you can decide to lay down your life and decide to pick it up again like Christ? Is there anything that you believe is exclusively unique to Christ or you think you can do Everything and can make every claim that Christ made? Where exactly is the boundary between your rights, powers, privileges and that of Christ?

Like I've always maintained, you and I and in fact all contributors reserve the right to change or stick to our positions. However, genuine seekers of truth will access this thread now or much later in the future and will be able to find it as they sieve through.

Cheers.

2 Kings 20:1 KJV
In those days was Hezekiah sick unto death. And the prophet Isaiah the son of Amoz came to him, and said unto him, Thus saith the Lord , Set thine house in order; for thou shalt die, and not live.

Hezekiah fell sick like any man born of a woman would and the sickness was leading to death...

2 Kings 20:2-3 KJV
Then he turned his face to the wall, and prayed unto the Lord , saying, [3] I beseech thee, O Lord , remember now how I have walked before thee in truth and with a perfect heart, and have done that which is good in thy sight. And Hezekiah wept sore.

Hezekiah beseeched God. To beseech someone is to beg someone to do something. Hezekiah begged God to extend his life because he knew ONLY COULD DECIDE WHETHER HE LIVED OR DIED. Not only did he beg God, my bible confirmed that HE WEPT SORE. This is not the action of a man who felt he was entitled to having his wish met. He knew all he could ask for was mercy. He was the king but he knew better than to ascribe a power he didn't have to himself.

2 Kings 20:4-5 KJV
And it came to pass, afore Isaiah was gone out into the middle court, that the word of the Lord came to him, saying, [5] Turn again, and tell Hezekiah the captain of my people, Thus saith the Lord , the God of David thy father, I have heard thy prayer, I have seen thy tears: behold, I will heal thee: on the third day thou shalt go up unto the house of the Lord.

God said he had seen Hezekiah's tears and had DECIDED TO HEAL him. The decision to beg was Hezekiah's but the decision to answer and heal was solely God's prerogative. If he didn't accede to the request like he didn't to Paul's request and pleas, which court or power would Hezekiah have appealed to?

2 Kings 20:6 KJV
And I will add unto thy days fifteen years; and I will deliver thee and this city out of the hand of the king of Assyria; and I will defend this city for mine own sake, and for my servant David's sake.

Whose decision was it to add 15 years? Yea you guessed right..God's. It is God that decided Hezekiah would spend another 15 years on earth. Hezekiah had no decision to make on it.

This Hezekiah's case is similar to Epaphroditus' case

Philippians 2:27 KJV
For indeed he was sick nigh unto death: but God had mercy on him; and not on him only, but on me also, lest I should have sorrow upon sorrow.

Despite Paul's anointing and apostleship, he knew its only God's mercy that kept his friend from probable death.

You can make all the decisions you want, but GOD has the final say. He holds the final decision that counts.

nlMediator: Peter's eternity would not have been jeopardized. While I'd not dare encourage anybody to walk away from God's plan for them, doing so does not doom people to hell. There's only one reason for going to hell or jeopardizing eternity: rejection of Jesus as Savior. I thought you're part of the eternal security crew here? Suddenly, you now believe that a saved person can lose his salvation?

If there's such a crew, then you must be a high ranking member.

You don't know my views on eternal security of the believer so I'll tell you. See the scripture I believe holds the full gospel message. See the clause in bold

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV
Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; [2] By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. [3] For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; [4] And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

I know Peter didn't believe in vain because he stayed the course till his martyrdom. There is no way Peter could have believed in Christ and rejected that particular information because it wasn't open for debate. Christ wasn't seeking his opinion. Christ was simply pre informing him of what the future held for him as a Christian. If he left, it means he stopped believing in Christ. If he stopped believing, it means he believed in vain initially and stood disqualified. If it was open for negotiation, why didn't Christ inform the others about theirs too so they could decide to do or not to do? See what John, who was standing by when Christ gave Peter this information, wrote

1 John 2:19 KJV
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out , that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Also, Have you read "Foxes' book of martyrs"? If you've not, try and do. A lot of 'ordinary' Christians suffered more and died more horrible deaths than Peter. Being a Christian at that time came with terrible perils and everyone of them knew what they signed unto. He would not/could not have walked away and remained the Peter we talk about today.

Yes, in a sense they decided their deaths because they cooperated with God's plan. God did not do it without them. God did not just decide and let it happen to them.

Really?? You mean Moses could have refused to die on the mountain and simply pick up his staff and walk far away from God? Would the refusal have resulted in a struggle between God and Moses?? Was there any record of God consulting Moses before deciding Moses would die on the mountain?

nlMediator: Sure, it’s God that decides. So long as you’re not saying that it’s God that decides for everybody when they’ll die and the manner of death. Because that’s not true. God decides in some specific situations, like Peter’s as part of his plan for them. He doesn’t decide in the case of the vast majority of people, including possibly the person in the OP. If He decided when everyone would die, what’s the point in telling them what to do to prolong their life? And even when it is according to his plan, like Peter’s, the Peters of this world are part of the ultimate decision in the sense that they have a choice in the matter. Our God, unlike the devil, respects human sovereignty and does not impose His will to override human wills. Otherwise, He’ll get everybody saved today, because His desire is that nobody should perish. So again, I do not understand your fixation with “it’s God that decides.”

The title of this thread "should I be disappointed in God, when it looks as though he doesn't answer prayers" presupposes we are talking about Christians so I ask "what could Peter have done differently to change the information Christ gave him without jeopardising his eternity?" What choice (as an apostle of Christ who wished for eternity with Christ) did he have in the matter?

Once again, thank God you agree God decides. Also you don't need to understand my fixation with that statement. However I'll keep repeating it as many times as it takes to correct the wrong notion that "all heroes of scripture decided their deaths"

nlMediator: Premonitions exist. But it’s not about premonitions. Or even actual knowledge of impending death. It’s actual knowledge based on God’s will. Not referring to your grandma, but people – young or old - may have premonitions or actually know of the day they would die even when that death is not God’s will. Ask anybody deeply versed in the occult.

Good you agree premonitions exist. But in any case, my argument is not knowledge of death based on God's will. Moses was told and succumbed to that will. The bone of contention is the statement that "all heroes in scripture decided their deaths". Could Moses have decided against that particular decision of God? If you agree with statement in bold, prove it. If not, you and I have nothing to argue about.

Without quibbling over words as to who decided, the key point is that God decided.

@the bolded, that's all I need the OP to realise. GOD DECIDED.

But He also needs the cooperation of those people. That’s why He brings them into the picture. Or why do you think He tells them or lets them know – so they can throw a party? Jesus told Peter about his manner of death. But it’s up to Peter if he wanted that or not. He could have walked away on Jesus and died differently.

@the bolded, you think dying differently mattered so much to Peter when compared to eternity without Christ? We are discussing Peter the apostle, not Peter that could have been lost as an atheist.

Why do you think he told them? To enable them get a negotiator? He told them to prepare their minds. If Peter wanted to remain in God's will, he had no choice. Its as simple as that. He even had to ask the 12 at a particular time thus "will ye also go away?" What do you think their response was? (See John 6:60-69 to find out)

See what Christ told Ananias to tell Paul

Acts 9:15-16 KJV
But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: [16] For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.

If you were Paul, what would you do? Decide not to go ahead or pray against it?

The key issue though is that people should not be rushing to death when God has not told them it’s their time. You want to dress that as accepting of death when the people you’re comparing them with actually knew from God it was their time. That’s a big difference.

I don't know who is rushing to death here. If you know any, pls tell them to chill. I don't know what dressing you're insinuating but since God decides, and you agree God decides, then let it rest.

Gombs: Umm candour are u saying asides Jesus, the rest Bible heroes had premonitions about their deaths? Use the below picture as a point of reference. Thanks

Jesus Christ didnt just know he was to die, He was/is a member of the Godhead that DECIDED he (Jesus) should come and die

Acts 2:22-23 KJV
Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: [23] Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

God determined it even if the jews and romans who carried out the action didn't know and Jesus was a part of this decision making hence my reminder to you about who Jesus really is.

You are the one making outrageous claims which you can't prove that ALL HEROES IN SCRIPTURE DECIDED THEIR DEATHS. Old folks sense or have a premonition when death is near, why, even their failing limbs, dim eyes etc are warnings enough

Genesis 27:1-4 KJV
And it came to pass, that when Isaac was old, and his eyes were dim, so that he could not see, he called Esau his eldest son, and said unto him, My son: and he said unto him, Behold, here am I. [2] And he said, Behold now, I am old, I know not the day of my death: [3] Now therefore take, I pray thee, thy weapons, thy quiver and thy bow, and go out to the field, and take me some venison; [4] And make me savoury meat, such as I love, and bring it to me, that I may eat; that my soul may bless thee before I die.

Isaac became old and blind. It was obvious to everybody that he was getting set to go the way of all mortals so he wisely decided to put his house in order. It wasnt his decision to die and he needed no special knowledge

Genesis 48:1 KJV
And it came to pass after these things, that one told Joseph, Behold, thy father is sick: and he took with him his two sons, Manasseh and Ephraim.

When Jacob became old and sick, he commenced the blessings of his offspring starting with Joseph's children.

1 Kings 1:1 KJV
Now king David was old and stricken in years; and they covered him with clothes, but he gat no heat.

All Isreal knew David was sick and the end was near. See Bathseba telling him to act before its too late

1 Kings 1:20-21 KJV
And thou, my lord, O king, the eyes of all Israel are upon thee, that thou shouldest tell them who shall sit on the throne of my lord the king after him. [21] Otherwise it shall come to pass, when my lord the king shall sleep with his fathers, that I and my son Solomon shall be counted offenders.

Immediately, the process for Solomon's enthronement was set in motion.

See Elisha. Even the king knew the time had come hence he went there to weep on the prophet's face. Read subsequent verses to get more.

2 Kings 13:14 KJV
Now Elisha was fallen sick of his sickness whereof he died. And Joash the king of Israel came down unto him, and wept over his face, and said, O my father, my father, the chariot of Israel, and the horsemen thereof.

Sorry it had to be this long.

Gombs: Issue here is, did death snatch him? This is someone God buried, a man who never saw hell

Whether death snatched him or he snatched death, I leave to you to decipher. The question begging for answer is "was it his decision to die on the mountain"? Or God's prerogative?

Ask Paul what he meant when he was writing Timothy... who decided he's finished his course

My friend, David is the focus here. Who decided when David finished his course? David or God?

Who said he decided to end his assignment? Dats suicide na...don't deviate from target...point is, did death snatch him away?

So you know it will be suicide yet you've been trying to get me to agree that heroes of old decided their deaths? Abi when person die, his assignment doesn't end?

I was pointing out that their mode of death is inconsequential...n dat death had no power over them...too bad u dnt see dat

I know its inconsequential and I'm glad you agree. Its you that feels you can decide when or how you go. Maybe you can tell us what you know or have that Peter, Paul etc didn't.

From the bold, are u sure u r a Christian? If Jesus did it, itmeans we can do much more than he did..that's Christianity.
1John 4:17 kjv
Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world


As He IS, not WAS...my Jesus is alive, and He’s made me sit together with Him, meaning, am in the same league with Him...that's Christianity, Divinity in Human, He didn’t go to that cross to raise sissies or weaklings, He went to raise other Jesuses

With what you wrote up there, I have to wonder if you know what it means to be a Christian. Christ is a part of the Godhead, are u? If you have the same divinity as Christ, then why will you need Christ? After all you're equal in all respects? Christians are members of the body of Christ and they know they are not equal to the head of that body.

That's the lowest I could go, if u dnt get the difference from that sentence, I can't be of further assistance

My sympathies

Simple... but these folks i named knew...and when u done here on earth, God's gonna sent u ur return ticket.

Yeah and I agreed they did. Like most old folks 'know'

When Jesus was gisting with His disciples in the last supper, He was having premonitions abi?

Jesus is a part of the Godhead that took counsel since before the foundation of the world to send a redeemer, pls stop forgetting that part.

Very soon you'll try to walk on water to form one of the little 'jesuses'

When Jacob was rejecting Reuben etc he was having premonitions shey? Joshua too abi.?

How old were they at their various times of death? When did they 'know' the end had come? Did they decide the time of this end like you want us to believe?

So, in ur theory now, younger folks like Jesus' age have premonitions?

Once again, try and realise you're talking about Jesus who created the world, not Gombs who would die and become food for termites and rodents if the Lord (the same Jesus) tarries.

What of Paul?

Paul had to be told his purpose by Christ himself while Jesus Christ on the other hand was a member of the Godhead that decided the plan for redemption which he came to fulfill. Very big diffetence

Was that the first time he was in jail? Why didn't he write he has finished his course we he was dragged to jail the first time? How come he didn't knw death was hanging over him the first time?

He had always known and expected death. If you're involved in an activity at variance with the ideas of sadistic and despotic rulers, its to be expected. Its the same story even for political and human rights activists.

Nothing about deciding how or when to die. You might wish and pray to go in a certain way, but if God wills otherwise, there's nothing you can do

Gombs: That Son of God is not ashamed to call me brethren.. ur problem here is u see Jesus as God only...he is a friend, a brother, a colleague...and as He is, so am I iN THIS WORLD, not when I get to heaven

Of course he's not ashamed to call us brethren but that gives you no right to go above your station. He's the physical manifestation of the Godhead, while you're just a part of the body like every other Christian.

Jesus is the saviour and even if he calls you brethren, it doesn't put you in the class of redeemer.

Gombs: Na wa o... didn't Jesus decide his death? Was he snatched by death?
John 10:18 KJV
No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.




How carnal...was Jesus' death a premonition? What of David's? Paul nko?



Ruminate on the Scripture above

Is Jesus a mere mortal like you, me or Paul the apostle? Do you realise he's a member of the Godhead?

Pls we are talking about humans, not the SON OF GOD

Gombs: Hello candour, did death take moses... yes or no? Remember, Moses didn't even know how to die, God asked him to...did death take him or he gave up his life? Yes or no

Was it Moses decision to die on the mountain? Yes or no?

"Decided their death" is the issue

Candour na, we all have different race,.. Jesus lived for 33 years, y didn’t u ask why didn't he live up to 70? When ur ministry here on earth is done, u check out, ask Paul...and Jesus, and David, and Idahosa etc

I know we have different race but Did David DECIDE to die when he did? Who determines when your assignment on earth is finished? You or God?

2 Tim 4v7-8
I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: [1Co 9:24] [Phi 3:14]
Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing. 1Co 9:25 1Pe 5:4 [Jas 1:12]


The man knew he was done with his assignment...

The man knew he was done with his assignment is different from the man decided the end of the assignment. Who chose the assignment and who determined the duration? Paul or God?

Hebrews 11 kjv
36 And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment: Jer 20:2
37  They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented; 1Ki 21:13 2Ki 1:8 Mat 3:4
38  (Of whom the world was not worthy: ) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.

How does this answer whether Peter chose to be crucified upside down? I didn't even ask you if it was a lack of faith or a wrong decision that made Peter die a horrible death.

Candour o, did Jesus chose crucifixion? But death didn’t take Him, he said "father, into your hands I place my spirit"... he sanctioned his death, He gave His life up, it wasn't snatched from him by death...study and understand.. how they died is immaterial, what matters is they endorsed their deaths, death had no power over them... same as the new creation.

I know you believe so much that you're a god but please leave Christ the saviour out of it. He's the saviour of all those heroes of faith you mentioned and us also. He's not in our league. He's a member of the Godhead pls. We are talking about humans like the relative of Joyce mentioned in your post.

Did they give up their lives or did death take them away?

I'll appreciate if you can differentiate between both pls. It will help me answer you.

Are u prepared for death now? Do u know when u gone check outta here? Heroes in the Bible knew...as Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, David, Jesus, Paul etc

I am bro but I don't know when that will be. Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David knew some little time before they died just like my grandma knew. Its called having a premonition and it helped them set their affairs in order. However, they didn't decide their deaths.

Jesus knew because that was the purpose he came for.

Paul was in Ceaser Nero's prison when he wrote 2 Timothy. The apostle was in danger of death from the first day he opened his mouth to declare that Jesus was the son of God. Of course he had the sentence of death hanging over him but even at that, he couldn't tell when exactly his head would be taken off neither did he decide it.

nlMediator: I think you missed his point. None of those people died at random. They knew it was time to die and accepted God’s plan for themselves. God told Moses. Jesus told Peter the type of death he’d die. David put his house in order and even thanked God for letting him see his son on the throne. None of this justifies the belief that anytime we die is the will of God. The Bible teaches no such thing. It only gives cover to the devil to continue to steal, kill and destroy innocent lives, many of whom end up in hell. Unlike the people you reference – Paul, Peter, etc – who are enjoying in Heaven. Our role as believers is to stop the work of darkness in the lives of people (see e.g. Mark 16:18) not accept them in the guise that we’re following God’s will. That’s gabbage that finds no place in the Bible.

You are the one missing the point. Did you read my post and the one I quoted at all?? The issue I have is Gombs saying all saints in the bible DECIDED their deaths. Its not about them knowing or sensing their impending deaths.

My grand ma who died recently at a very ripe old age acted in some very strange ways and said some strange things the few weeks before she died that leaves us in no doubt that she must have had a premonition of her death. People regularly have premonitions about death etc but I'm not concerned with a premonition or a pre knowledge of death.

The issue here is anyone affirmiing all heroes of scriptute DECIDED their deaths. If you or him wish to expunge "decided their death" from the discussion, I'll rest my case here.

Gombs: ALL the Heroes in the bible decided their deaths... they were prepared of it, and gave up their lives... death DID NOT take them... that is how it should be, not that trailer jam you or hammer fell from the roof and crushed the skull etc

go study, Moses, Jesus, David, Joshua, Isaac, Jacob, Paul, the apostles... etc

You mean Moses decided not to see the promised land and decided to die on the mountain @ 120?

You mean David decided to die @ 70 when he could have stayed till 120?

You mean Paul decided he to be beheaded before he turned 70?

You mean Peter decided to be hung upside down just like that?

You mean Simon the Canaanite decided to be cut in half?

My bro, none of these saints decided to die or how they died when they did. They only had a better acceptance of the inevitable than Christians of today. In fact all the apostles except John died violent deaths you won't wish on an enemy.

Being prepared for death is very different from deciding to die. All sensible human beings should be prepared for death whether they like it or not because its inevitable if the Lord tarries and Christians are expected to be better prepared according to the bible.

Goshen360: It's just the false gospel that is being preached in places like Nigeria that make it look like witches have effects on a child of God. People go to church every Sunday but return empty of the spiritual food. The word says, greater is he in you...than he in the world and yet, some christians will still tell you they are fight witches, calling it spiritual warfare - They are using their faith to fight war that is already won at calvary.

Friends, you're complete IN CHRIST....you don't need no addition, subtraction.

Make God help us I tell u.

Bro, how u dey? Longest time.

Dragonking: How dumb. so people in your country or other countries in Africa dont belive in witches

Like i told you the problem i have with you is your constant but indirect attack on Nigeria and i am ever ready to tackle you down to the bone. If you have the balls ( wish i doubt) state your true country then will shall start from there.

Friend, don't get too worked up over Nora, she isn't even an African to begin with. I guess she's Scandinavian (judging from her past posts but this is a guess) and they sure don't give time or regard to witches like we do here.

lastmessenger: My elder brother life is a complete prove that the tithing stuff is a complete lie geared towards making some people rich.i have never seen anybody who is more faithful in paying tithe than my elder bro.infact he will tell me that he is sure that his bread and water will not fail because he is a faithful tither.But on the contrary this guy keeps loosing big money.if really tithe is a means to wealth my bros should be a multimillionair seeing he has observed that law to the letter.

This is sad but its the reality of most folks. The sadder part is that they're the most vociferous in defending the mog who fleece them. Maybe they believe that the more they defend their mog and the scheme, the greater their chance of seeing it manifest.

I pray your brother sees the truth and gets set free.

tit: comot for road!
If you does not like it, i does!
afterall, one man is meat, another man is poison.
i hate you people.
i am planning to send suicide bomber
or kidnapper or fulani herdsmen to your village.
that is what i like.
if you like to sing in choir or knack head for ground,
na you sabi.

Keep it up dear if it makes you sleep well at night but ensure you don't leave a trail that can lead security agencies to your doorstep; you should know they're looking for terror sponsors and you've just confessed to be one.

See what a man who thinks deeply wrote Here

You need to digest the truth therein for your good.

ifex370: The yoruba's must be happy by now....

I'm Yoruba and I'm not happy. Why should I be when a little girl's innocence has been snatched from her through the idiocy of one shameless man?

Its the same way I don't expect an Igbo man to be happy at the picture of a ritualist caught with a human head in Ibadan.

Let's not be sadists. Only sadists will be happy at any of the two scenarios above.

chiefinalowo: So wa Candour? I will read it if it will make sense sha.
As for the ibos, there is no way out for una.

Mo wa jare. Pls try and look at the write up.

Its in our collective interest to rid the land of the unnecessary bile threatening to consume us all.

Cheers

chiefinalowo: Are you by any chance related to Nkemakolam?

No I'm not. I didn't even bother reading the post because from the heading, its obvious what you meant to achieve; the denigration of a whole ethnic group because of the wickedness of one man forgetting that your tribe also boasts peadophiles like any other tribe in the country or any where in the world.

Okey Ndibe wrote a brilliant piece which you and other ethnic e-warriors from all tribal groupings need to digest properly for peace to reign in the land. See it HERE

Pls read and digest it.

If it will interest you by the way, I'm not Igbo.

Threads such as this have nothing but ethnic hatred to offer and it'll be nice if they're not allowed to keep multiplying.

I suggest mods delete this thread.

GEJ has repeatedly shown by his actions that he doesn't give a damn what Nigerians and the international community say or think about his government. His apologists (at least those on NL) have consistently asserted that neither he nor they care about the opinion of foreigners so why did he pen such a write up in the American media that has now backfired with any interested writer feeling obliged to embarrass him and the country?

He should steer clear of the press in the west. His government can't be sold there no matter how much of our national patrimony he's ready to throw at them.

He should instead devote time to winning the affections of the Nigerian populace who will do the actual voting in 2015.

If only the Nigerian youth will take heed. Most will come here and instead of reading the piece, will rather rant about its length.

I'm sure Okey Ndibe had NL politics section in mind when he wrote this because the level of hate promoted in posts here can make even Hitler cringe. How can we make progress as a nation when we hate other ethnic groups so much? Even if we have to go our separate ways, is it not better to do it peacefully? Some come here to promote war and I wonder how many of them experienced the ife-modakeke crisis, umuleri-anguleri crisis or ijaw-itshekiri crisis? I won't even mention the civil war or the boko haram theaters in the north.

If our politicians lack sense and are incapable of thinking about the future of the larger society, what about us, the citizens who are at the receiving end of their collective thievery and wickedness? Shouldn't we be bothered about the terrible scenarios that could become the lot of this country as a result of our hate filled words, posts and actions?

I wish we all will take the time to digest what Ndibe wrote. We are dancing dangerously close to the precipice and the earlier we stop the mad motion, the better. With over 300 ethnic groups and 160 million humans, Rwanda will be an inconsequential child's play in comparison.

Nigerian youths, pls think.

DrummaBoy:

Of course God answers prayers abi you doubt it

Image123: God answers prayers still,

Truly God answers prayers.......every time.

Pastor Kun: I remember asking you to let's extract both sides of the tithe debate and publishing it into a book for the benefit of all. If only we had proceeded as suggested. too much work went into that debate too allow it to be lost too Seun's negligence.

don't mind DrummaBoy jare.

@Pastor Kun, actually its not such a big deal. I believe a sincere seeker of truth about the practice of tithing will find it browsing through the 9 pages of the discussion left unaffected by the tsunami. Anyway, I have the contributions of Mark and i to this discussion in a folder somewhere on my system though I don't think I'm interested in uploading them again. Like I said earlier, if it's truth you want, its there in the remainder of the thread.

The Bible tells us that God’s tithes in the Law were to be heaved. The bible DOES NOT SAY that the tithe that Abram gave to Melchizedek was a “heave offering.” One has to add to the Word of God to make it so. Again, “tithes of all” clearly refer to tithe of spoils of war: NOT ABRAM’S HOUSEHOLD RICHES. The bible is very clear and concise about that and I hope no one will attempt to contradict the bible

Heb 7:4 Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils

Abraham gave a tithe of ONLY THE SPOILS. It will be a lie to say otherwise.

Our fellow discussants mention the ‘’importance of regular contributions to their wives, children, communities and government’’ and we still wonder what this has got to do with tithes. How does consistent giving translate to a specific 10% called tithe? They claim God will not like it if we do not do this and they quote Mal 1:8 for effect. This is another case of bending and forcing scripture to say what they want it to say rather than what God said. For their information, Malachi 1:8 says nothing of regular contributions. It is speaking of giving wrong and substandard things than are required.

The tithe promoters say ‘’ [color=#009999]We have at no time made tithing a law on this thread. It is Mark and Candour who have continued to say that it is a law. We stand to be corrected on that[/color]’’ we will correct them here. TITHE IS A LAW INSTITUTED IN THE LAW OF MOSES. They have no power over it because God made it so with clear directions and command on its collection and administration. It is ignorance to say otherwise but thank God the holy ghost thought fit to explain our freedom from the law through the apostles. Our fellow discussants forget that they are not the only tithe preachers in Christianity. Millions of church leaders preach that Christians today MUST obey this law or suffer the consequences enumerated at the beginning of this response. Our participation here does not have only the two of them in focus but others who have placed Christians in a bondage and yoke to a corrupted version of Mosaic law thereby making the decision of the Holy Ghost in Acts 15:24,28 of none effect.

The tithers say ‘’ We believe liberality, and not liberty is why you may not find reference to tithe whenever any of the apostles mentioned giving or charity in their epistles’’ and we wonder why they then persist in this argument? If they believe the apostles wanted the early Christians to be liberal hence knew tithe preaching was USELESS in this regard, why have modern church leaders picked it up and elevated it to a dizzying height of regard in church teachings today? Why are Image and RhymeyJohn hammering on what they KNOW the apostles never referenced? We also wonder how you can be liberal without having the liberty to be. They say ‘’ The people were giving way over 10% to the cause of the church, therefore there would naturally be no need to teach them of 10%’’ leaving us to wonder why our opponents persist in closing their eyes to the fact that the apostles knew they HAD NO RIGHT TO COLLECT TITHES FROM ANYBODY BECAUSE THE LEVITICAL PRIESTHOOD THAT OWNED THE TITHES WAS STILL IN CHARGE AT THE TEMPLE. We can’t but notice that our tithe promoters have also wisely mentioned 10% instead of tithe and we can only smile at this because they know as well as we know that the apostles would have nothing to do with tithe collections whether people gave 1% or 3% simply because they remembered they were not LEVITES. Also the giving was strictly to meet the daily personal needs of the poor and needy among them, not to hire chariots for the apostles or build cathedrals. See the scripture again

Acts 2:44-45 And all they that believed were together, and had all thing common;[45]And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as everyman had need
Acts 4:34-35 Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possesors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold,[35]And laid them down at the apostles feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need

Let us always allow scripture say what it means and mean what it says.

Our fellow discussants say ‘’ It becomes ludicrous if you claim to have no problems with distribution of the whole amount to the needs of the community of saints, but have problems with distribution of the tenth of the whole amount to the needs of the community of saints’’ and we say it is not only ridiculous, but it is WICKED, CRUEL, INHUMANE AND FRAUDLENT to collect tithes in the name of the church and refuse to supply the necessities of the needy saints in the church. Tithers believe we preach against every giving in church because of our stance on tithes for Christians but this is not so. if only the tithes so collected are actually used to meet the needs of the community of the saints. We believe there wouldn’t have been a questioning of tithe collections (its glaring contradictions notwithstanding) if not for the glaring criminality in its collections and administration in most churches that preach it. Tithes are collected in the name of the church and members are told the pastor is the priest that God has placed over the particular church and he alone (plus family and close associates) has the divine wisdom to spend as ‘led by the spirit’ when the bible clearly records collections in the early church as being used SOLELY AND TOTALLY to meet the needs of the members of the church. Is this how tithe is administered in most churches today? People who see leaders being dishonest with what they give in churches today will not be liberal with their giving except those who see giving in church as a business and approach it fully with this mindset and because the gospel has been commercialized, this approach sells unfortunately.

We have no qualms provoking others to good works but again, we cannot teach tithing as a “good work” that other Christians should do since God said in His Holy Word that His tithes were to go to a people of the nation of Israel, specifically… the Levites. How can we suggest that others give 10% of their money when God said clearly in His Word that we are to purpose in our own hearts what to give to those in need?

The Church at Corinth was not told to set aside a proportion. What they were told was “Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.” The word “prospered” in this verse is not speaking of proportion. Many mistakenly read it to mean proportion when it does not. The Greek word that “prospered” is translated from is the word “euodoo.” It is defined, “as God has helped you on your journey.” Literally, Paul was saying, “As God has helped you on your journey in life, so do you to others.

We see this same illustration given by Jesus when the Lawyer asked of Him, “Who is my neighbor?” Jesus answered with a parable of a beaten man who was left for dead until a certain Samaritan came to his aid. Jesus told the Lawyer, “Go thou, and do likewise.” And it’s in tandem with the golden rule given by Christ himself thus ‘’Do unto others as you would have them do to you’’

So many misinterpret Paul’s instruction to help others along the road of life into a verse that teaches tithes when it does not. 1 Corinthians 16:2, when read in context is shown to be a collection, not for the Church at Corinthians where the collections was to be taken up, but for a body of believers in another city, another location. 1 Corinthians 16:2 is not even about one collecting any money whatsoever for one’s own Church.

1 John 3:17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?

If we have the means to help others who are in need, we should. If we fail to help when we have the means to help, we do not show the love of God at all. The Apostle John questions if the love of God is even dwelling in one who has the means to help but does not. This is the lesson the early Christians imbibed that made them liberal with their resources.

Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

the Christian has liberty and he should be allowed the liberty to be liberal with his resources. One may give 1%, 10%, or even 100% sacrificially but regardless of what one gives, we cannot justly teach that a Christian should tithe. We should never teach man how much to give. He is to decide for himself what he should or can give. He that is told to give 10% is not choosing for himself rather, he is allowing someone else to do the choosing for him. God’s Word doesn’t teach tithe for Christians and neither should we. Instead, we should teach that if there is a need and one has the means to meet that need, that one should contribute to that need (1 John 3:17). We should teach that one must decide for oneself what that one wants to give (2 Corinthians 9:7). We should teach that our giving to the destitute and needy is more prized by Christ than any other good work (Matt 25:31-46) with him concluding that those who provide for the needy will inherit eternal life.


END

RESPONSE TO RESPONSE R7


There are a lot of wrong, cruel and dangerous doctrines on rampage in Christianity today and we have decided not to close our eyes to it or play the ostrich and bury our heads in the sand, pretending all is well. A lot of people were supposedly brought into church but have been made twice the children of hell by the poison being peddled as doctrine from a lot of pulpits. The lies and misconceptions are what we seek to point out but our fellow discussants accuse us of many things one of which is causing divisions between ministers and churches. We do not seek to cause any of such. We only seek to let the children of God know the truth about this doctrine of tithes and we plead with them to be consistent in the reasons they adduce for tithe payment and collection because the destinies of plenty naïve and gullible Christian folks depend on it. We didn’t enter this discussion solely for the benefit of the two members of the other team but for the generality of Christians. Our fellow discussants say they believe TITHING CANNOT JUSTIFY THEM BEFORE GOD. We are indeed glad they know this truth but do they assume the generality of Christianity realize this truth?

We have given reasons why this discussion is imperative and why we decided to come into it. We wish those on the other team can appreciate the damage these misconceptions have done to some poor ignorant Christians somewhere. Christians are told things such as

1. If you don't tithe, things will be tight for you financially

2. If you don't tithe, you will have calamities, accidents, sickness, etc and you’ll not prosper

3. If you don't tithe, you will burn in hell for ever because you’re a robber.

4. If you don't tithe, it means you don't love God

5. Pay tithe as eternal principle to prove Abraham is your father

6. Pay Tithe to sanctify your finances

7. Pay tithe to your pastor because he is senior to you in the order of priesthood of Melchizedek

This list is by no means exhaustive as more keep coming out daily depending on how fertile the imaginations of the promoters are. The other team accuses us of causing divisions but Is it better to be united in an erroneous doctrine contrary to that which the new covenant teaches? Is it not better to be united in Truth?

We are told in the Bible that we are to Preach the Word; not man’s tradition, nor man’s opinion.

2 Timothy 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

At this point, we must ask once again… Where in God’s Word are we instructed to tithe our money? Where in the word are we asked to give tithes to anyone other than the Levites? Where in the word are pastors called priests over other Christians? Where are we told to tithe because it is an example?

Brethren, it’s just not there! Yet we are consistently ridiculed and made to look the bad guy for doing exactly what the Bible commands… “Preach the Word.”

The inspired Word of God tells us that God gave tithes paid by the Israelites to the Levites because they had the charge of the tabernacle and had no inheritance. It does not matter that Abram paid tithes to Melchizedek 500 years before. The fact is that by the time of Moses, God gave the tithes to the Levites.

If I were working for a company, and my employer told me I had the responsibility of going to the store and buying doughnuts and coffee for the employees of the company, then I would have to carry out my responsibility. If however, my employer made an announcement, “From here on, Jack is to go to the store and get the doughnuts and coffee,” I would have to relinquish my role as the one responsible for getting the doughnuts and coffee. It would now be Jack’s responsibility.

Another meeting is held several years later, and my boss mentions once again in that meeting that Jack has the responsibility of going to the store and picking up doughnuts and coffee for the employees of the company. Now, although there are subsequent meetings, doughnuts and coffee are never mentioned again by the boss.

How is anyone to assume that any other person other than Jack is responsible for bringing the doughnuts? It is the same with the tithes.

We see Melchizedek receiving tithes in the Bible. (although no mention that he was ordered to do so by God) (Gen. 14:18-20). We see God subsequently telling Moses that He has given all the tithes of the land to the Levites (Numbers 18:24) and tithe of tithes to the priests (Numbers 18:26,28). We see God specifying what those tithes consist of (Leviticus 27:30-33). We see who God said was responsible for tithing (Leviticus 27:34). Fourteen Hundred-Ninety-Six years later, we see God reminding the people that the tithes belong to the Levites (Hebrews 7:5). Where and when was this instruction changed?

There is no instruction to tithe after the manner of Abram (which, by the way, was not Abram’s own household goods). There is no mention of God telling man to give tithes to a Church. There is no mention of God telling man that He has amended tithes to go to any geographical location other than Israel. It is man that has invented new tithe rules. Rules that are contrary to the Word of God.

As is obvious, tithe preachers take liberty with the Word of God concerning the tithes. God never instructed Gentile nations to tithe and neither did he instruct Gentile Christians to do so. Once again see what the Holy Ghost saw good to tell the early Christians

Acts 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, Saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
Acts 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;[29]That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
Acts 21:25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication

Yet tithe preachers say Gentile Christians must obey the command to tithe today and give it to non levitical clergy. If we were to ask any orthodox Jew where we were to go to tithe, we would be told that, being non-Jews, we cannot tithe. The Jews know the truth concerning tithes. The tithes were given to the Levites. God never said to take the tithes to Gentiles outside of the land of Israel. There is no indication in God’s Word that He wanted Gentile Converts to tithe to the Church. None whatsoever. Once again, we’ll want readers to note the following truths and facts

1.Early Jewish Christians eligible to pay tithes would have paid BUT ONLY TO LEVITES at the temple because that’s what the law said (NOTHING TO DO WITH THEIR BEING CHRISTIANS) and they were zealous of the law and NOT TO THE APOSTLES as that would be transgression of the law they were said to be zealous about. Even more serious is that THE JEWS PRACTICING JUDAISM AND THEIR LEADERS WOULD NEVER HAVE ALLOWED THE Christian leaders take over the rights and privileges’ of the Levites.

2.Gentile Christians (You and i) were not expected to adhere to Mosaic law hence they NEVER paid tithes either to the Levites or to the apostles. THEY OPERATED ON THE BASIS OF FREEWILL OFFERINGS, NOT TITHES.

So whose example are today’s tithe preachers following? What do they know today that eluded the early Christians and the apostles? When did God change his will concerning the tithes? Once again, we have no problem with a Christian who keeps himself bound to the tithe of his own volition or leading of his Spirit. We however protest its elevation to a doctrine for all Christians because it’s clear falsehood.

When we use John 8:39 and Romans 4:2, we do not so to justify the works of the flesh, rather, we do so to show inconsistencies. Not with us, but with those who say they tithe because Abram tithed. The tithe being taught today is not after the tithe of Abraham. We have proven that using Scripture. Abram’s tithe was of the spoils of war. Not of wages. The spoils were not Abram’s wages. After Abram gave all the spoils away, God spoke to him and told him “I am thy reward. (Genesis 15:1)

Genesis 15:1 After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.

The spoils Abram gave tithes from were not his wages. This is very clear from scriptures

Scripture does not say Abraham rejoiced in seeing someone like Jesus. One is adding to the Word of God when one says Abraham did. Not once in the passages concerning Melchizedek do we see any inference that Abraham was rejoicing to see Melchizedek.

We are told that “faith is not a work.” Yet the Lord Jesus Christ declares that faith which is also ‘believing’ is a work.

John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Abraham gave tithe to an earthly king who was a priest of the most high God. The bible didn’t record it as a heave offering. The bible didn’t also record him as giving to a church. I’m sure by the standards of responsibility that our fellow discussants have drawn up, Abraham must be tagged very irresponsible. Abram did live in ancient Babylonia prior to his moving to the plains of Mamre. Ancient history records the Babylonians tithing to their deities as early as 2200 B.C.. This is important for one reason… Abram’s tithe to Melchizedek was 287 years after the earliest recorded history of the Babylonians tithing and he came from a Babylonian city… Ur of the Chaldees so he was of course well acquainted with the tithing tradition. Also there’s no record that Abraham repeated this practice at any other time. Any insinuation to the contrary would obligate our brothers to prove Abraham met Melchizedek again and again in the remaining 90 years he lived after this episode (He met Melchizedek at 85, a year before Ishmael was born and he died at 175). Since the bible DID NOT say this, we will reject such conclusions.

We implore our fellow discussants to differentiate between giving good advice and propagating a clear command from God. They’ve realized the importance of regular contributions to their wives, children, communities and government. We are indeed happy for them but we wish to know what this discovery has got to do with tithes? Do they tithe to their families and the government too? We’ve always said that it’s a good thing to make a contribution to your church. If the members of any church come together and agree on a percentage, that will be their prerogative. IT SHOULDN’T BECOME LAW for the rest of Christianity. God didn’t institute tithe in the law for ease of budgeting, he did because he withheld the rights of a particular Israeli tribe from fending for themselves. If our brothers are concerned about their church budget, then they have the right to arrive at a workable format for themselves and keep it there. Mark and Candour’s church would have a different approach to the issue and do not need to be dictated to by Image and RhymeyJohn’s church. If 10% is what they adopt in their church, then they should go ahead. We might find that a very irresponsible percentage and decide to do something else. Where the spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty which is why you’ll never find any reference to tithe whenever any of the apostles mentioned giving or charity in their epistles. Take a search and see for yourself.

Our brothers say ‘’ The early church tried a different method, a method of selling all their properties and laying them at the apostles' feet. This is the method that Mark and Candour seem to commend and recommend’’ this statement in our opinion is an attempt to panel beat the truth. See the verse again

Acts 2:44-45 And all they that believed were together, and had all thing common;[45]And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as everyman had need
Acts 4:34-35 Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possesors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold,[35]And laid them down at the apostles feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need

Use a binoculars to read the scripture up there if you wish, YOU WILL NEVER FIND A COMMAND from the apostles to the church to do what they did and that is the part our fellow discussants make a big effort to ignore. Those wonderful children of God did what they did OF THEIR OWN VOLITION without prompting from anybody or a prescribed methodology. There was no pressure on them to give, neither was there any pressure on Ananias and Sapphira to give either 1%, 10%, or even 100%. The questions Peter asked them proves BEYOND ANY DOUBT that they were not pressured to give or given a methodology or percentage to give. Pay attention to verse 4

Acts 5:3-4 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?[4]Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? And after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? Why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? Thou hast not lied to unto men, but unto God.

They were not pressured to give. While they owned the land, it was theirs to do with as they wished. No pressure and after they sold it, the money was still in their power. There was no pressure to give. They died because they wanted to deceive God to get vain glory. Once again, we repeat; THE EARLY CHURCH GAVE WILLINGLY OF THEIR OWN VOLITION, NOT BY A RECOMMENDED PERCENTAGE BY THE APOSTLES and NEITHER DID THEY PAY THE APOSTLES 100%. I hope our brethren get it this time. Nobody is asking you to sell all you have and give to your church. Surely not Mark and Candour. In Acts 2 & 4, we see land and houses being sold and the money distributed to the needy. No mention of white tithing envelopes, no ten percent taken out or demanded for the upkeep of a building, the funding of a missions trip, or the salary of a pastor. Only distribution of the whole amount to the needs of the community of saints. We have instances of collections for poor saints all over the epistles, what is conspicuously missing is this monetary tithe that is being preached from the pulpits today. It was all about every man as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give…..

Our brethren are trying to ridicule the Jerusalem church for their giving up everything and their poverty forgetting that even the gentile churches that gave to support them were themselves said to be in deep poverty

2 Cor 8:1-2 Moreover, brethren, we do you to wit of the grace of God bestowed on the churches of Macedonia;[2]How that in a great trial of affliction the abundance of their joy and their deep poverty abounded unto the riches of their liberality.

When it came to helping needy souls, a Christian must forget his own circumstances. This is what this wonderful church did just like what the widow of Zarepath did when she fed Elijah out of the little she had. The man of God asked for a little morsel out of what she had, he didn’t ask for all and God proved himself faithful (1 Kings 17:10-16).

Our fellow discussants insinuate that Abraham made sacrifices when he gave tithes to Melchizedek, but what sacrifice did Abram make in his tithe to Melchizedek? The tithes were not of his own household riches. Scripture says they were of the spoils of war. Brethren, there was no Sacrifice in Abram’s tithe and the bible DID NOT REFER TO ABRAHAM'S TITHE AS A SACRIFICE

We know God says "I know thy works, and charity, and service’’ he didn’t say’ I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faithful tithing’. Tithing is irrelevant to the Christian life. The early church wasn’t asked to tithe and Christians today also have no business with tithing. It is not tithing that shows our regard for God. Even in the law, there were other practices that were more important in showing regard for God, Sabbath for instance. As Christians, Our whole life must show regard for God. Taking care of our wives, children, relatives, Community and paying tax to Government is showing regard for God, not just giving 10% to the church.

CHRISTIANS ARE CONNECTED TO ABRAHAM BECAUSE WE SHARE A SIMILAR FAITH IN GOD NOT BECAUSE OF TITHING.


END

REBUTTING PRESENTATION R7


With this presentation, our fellow discussants have conveniently changed the reason they pay tithe and preach tithe to the fact that Abraham tithed and it’s a responsible thing to follow in the footsteps of Abraham. They are no longer tithing because of ‘the belief that the law of God is truth and should be regarded’ but they tithe because Father Abraham did and ‘The will and the way of Abraham was for his household to follow in his steps’. How often must our brothers vacillate on the reason or purpose for which they tithe? Let’s take a trip through Abraham’s life and see his other practices that our tithing brothers might already be following since they seek to emulate Abraham’s ‘works’

Genesis 12:13 Say, I pray thee, thou art my sister: that it may be well with me for thy sake: and my soul shall live because of thee

We see Abraham being economical with the truth in the above scripture. He lied about his wife and evidently, it’s a ‘good’ example to follow afterall it’s Abraham and he even had a breakthrough courtesy of this dishonesty

Genesis 12:16 And he entreated Abram well for her sake: and he had sheep, and oxen, and he asses, and menservants, and maidservants, and she asses, and camels.

Infact it was such a ‘good example’ that Abram repeated the exact thing again

Genesis 20:2 And Abraham said of Sarah his wife, She is my sister: and Abimelech king of Gerar sent, and took Sarah.

Again a very good example to follow because see how profitable it was for the Patriarch

Genesis 20:14 And Abimelech took sheep, and oxen, and menservants, and womenservants, and gave them unto Abraham, and restored him Sarah his wife.

Obviously we can assume God commanded him to tell these lies as it all turned out well for him and even in the midst of this dishonesty, see how God described him to Abimelech

Genesis 20:7 Now therefore restore the man his wife; for he is a prophet, and he shall pray for thee, and thou shalt live: and if thou restore her not, know thou that thou shalt surely die, thou, and all that are thine.

WE SEE THAT GOD DIDN’T CONDEMN HIM AND EVEN DESCRIBED HIM AS A PROPHET. Then we go down the family tree to see how Isaac followed the works of Abraham. He wasn’t recorded to have tithed, but he was recorded to have followed this ‘other’ work Abraham was known for

Genesis 26:7 And the men of the place asked him of his wife; and he said, She is my sister: for he feared to say, She is my wife; lest, said he, the men of the place should kill me for Rebekah; because she was fair to look upon.

Then we can conveniently say because of his following this ‘good’ work he learnt from his father, God decided to surprise him because immediately after this debacle, see what the bible recorded of him

Genesis 26:12 Then Isaac sowed in that land, and received in the same year an hundredfold: and the LORD blessed him

We see God blessing him after he LIED. Then we should also follow the other practices of circumcision (Gen 17:26-27), Erecting of Altars (Gen 12:8 ), burnt offerings (Gen 22:13), sleeping with the maid (Gen 16:4).

My brethren, have you considered the cost of actually following Abraham’s works? However, are we asked to follow these works of Abraham by Christ or by the apostles? What exactly is that attribute of Abraham that identifies us with him? It wasn’t tithe, it wasn’t circumcision, it wasn’t erecting altars and giving burnt offerings because see what the bible said about all the works Abraham did

Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God

If works could justify, Abraham wouldn’t be able to stand before God almighty. What then was that which made him acceptable before God and also makes us acceptable today as children of God? It’s simply believing God. It was simply having faith in God

Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness
Gen 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness
Gal 3:6-7 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.[7]Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

God made promises to Abraham and he exhibited faith by believing all God said even though the evidence at the time suggested otherwise. This was the work of Abraham that Jesus was asking the Jews to do. It couldn’t have been tithing as they were evidently paying tithes at this time. It couldn’t have been circumcision as they were champions of circumcision. It couldn’t have been burnt offerings as they had abundance of this practice. Infact it couldn’t have been telling of lies as their religious leaders and themselves were master liars like the devil that was leading them(John 8:44). So what was the work Christ was asking them to do? It was to simply believe him when he told them he came from God.

John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent

It’s this work of believing in Jesus as sent from God that he was asking the Jews to engage in if they were truly the children of Abraham because Abraham believed God without question and it’s the one thing we are asked to emulate of Abraham today: BELIEVING IN GOD. God said Abraham’s children will keep the way of the LORD (Gen 18:19), but we must not read into the text what is not there. Scripture does not say Abram’s tithe was the “Way of the LORD.” Had Abram’s tithe been the “Way of the Lord,” God would not have had to have established a different Levitical tithe under the Law. Brethren the way of the LORD is believing God. We expect our brethren to know this.

The proposed National Conference is missing an important ingredient and that is sovereignty. If the politicians are sincere, then they should allow the conference to be sovereign with decisions that are binding and only subject to a referendum, not to a partisan National Assembly. Any conference short of this will only be another jamboree like Abacha's and OBJ's conferences.

But are the politicians bold or honest enough to allow it?