₦airaland Forum

Apparently Afenifere don't want their masters and partners in crime to go
What a shame

Still wondering y some people want Okonji out of the way

Obviously these set of people are from the dark side

Subsidy probe...power probe...pension fund probe...police fund probe...securities and exchange commission probe...my probe...your probe........it is only me that feels we are moving in endless circles

Is our problem really corruption or systemic?

As long as the systems tries to create conditions where the profit of being corrupts outweighs the risk, we will just have to be a nation of probe-rs...

Oya....where and what is the next probe?? customs funds, army funds?

A misguided set of people indeed!!

Gbawe Gbawe Gbawe......na wa ooo...
So deep down you feel Tinubu and co are not corrupt? shame on you for being deceived.

Who are the beneficiaries of Subsidy? Is it only those who are listed here? what about those in business because the subsidy exist? those smart enough to cover their shady deals nko?

Bottom line is that the subsidy must go.

alj harem: shut it, you sound like an ideeiot

OR

It could be that you hear like an ideeiot!!

Kobojunkie: No, we are not good. We are not saying the same things and we do not agree on this at all. So, there.

Thanks for being honest!!

Kobojunkie: Correction -- The report that middle class Nigerians have 3-4 children works only if you focus on a subset because the average number of children per female in the same Nigeria has GONE UP . . . notice, it has not come down but has gone up. The birth rate in the country has gone up even as the claims that middle class Nigerians now only have 3-4 children keeps making rounds. How do you explain that one?

You apparently did not get the gist, and to repeat myself again....
I was not talking about averages in nigerias population going up or down...please understand what i am saying carefully....
Here i go again slowly this time....

1 countries that experience economic growth also experience a reduction in population growth rate.

2 Poorer countries always have a high growth rate....

Are we good so far? If so proceed to the next line, else stop reading.

If u have gotten to this stage then u totally understand 1 and 2. Lets look at nigeria.

3 Among the new families, parents between 27 to 38, Middle class people in this country have fewer children. Between 3 to 4 kids

4 Poorer people in the same age range have more children....

if you dont agree on this 4 points you can stop here, if you do, then what can be interpreted? If it isnt already obvious, let me state it....

Industrialization > economic development > economic empowerment > more education >less reliance on lucky hit from producing so many children....

That's what has happened to industrialized countries, that what happened to the small middle class in Nigeria and that's how to get the general population growth rate down.

Kabikala: Well, DaLover, regarding the bolded part of your statement, you are absolutely wrong. Many underdeveloped countries are improving access and use of contraceptives for their people. Ethiopia increased its Contraceptive Prevalence Rate (CPR - the proportion of married women of reproductive age using a modern contraceptive method) from 8% in 2000 to 15% in 2005 and 29% in 2011, yet they are a very poor country. While Nigeria has a CPR of 10%, Ghana has 19%, India 49% and Iran 77%. In Brazil, average number of children per woman is 2.5 while Nigerians have an average of 5.7. All these countries are developing countries but you can see that those that prioritize the issue of how to address population explosion are all making progress.
It is like the egg and chicken. Do you wait for development before checking unrestrained population growth? Or you tackle the challenge of population explosion in your quest to achieve development?

@Kobojunkie: Thumbs up for your ability to see the big picture!

I just don't understand why people will keep insisting on implementing policies that have either failed or are failing...to me this amounts to hitting ur head against a brick wall hoping that it would move.....in this country nigeria we have tried several enlightenment campaigns with remarkable failure....and it doesnt occur to yoj guys that what is at play here is a cultural attitude, and one of the greatest changers of such cultural attitudes is social economical directions......

Look at this simple example, in nigeria now, middle class people working in banks, oil companies, telecoms sector, insurance etc are having 3 or 4 children at most....there was no enlightenment campaigns, no punitive taxes, no free condoms campaigns......how and why are these middle class nigerians deciding to have smaller managable families.....

As long as poor people feel that one of the many spawn children is a possible ticket to a good life, he will keep trying his luck.....tdying to point out the negatives to him and he will say na blessings from God...

Saying that we cant wait to be developed before population reduces means u r getting it wrong because it shows that you are like kobojunkie in your subconscious believe that nigerian can never develop.....now if you have choosen to express this believe indirectly, why should the country remain one then? I

^^^why do u think subsidized petrol or any product is ur right?
Stop behaving like a lazy leech and become productive to ur society.

^^^
This kind of subsidy makes sense...tax breaks for oil companies to create more employment opportunities.
This kinds of discussions are what we should be having not blanket subsidies for all and sundry

icon aus: I have said in the past . GEJ should be allowed to contest . It is his right . He should not be rushed out of the office while other former presidents enjoyed 8 yrs and over . It is still too early to assess him . Nigeria is too complex a country and the economy has been battered which dated back to early 80s and how come you expect him to fix it in 2yrs . man! people should be realistic . We have to wait for at least 4 yrs for us to start seeing signs of economic improvement therefore he needs 2nd tenure . We cannot ignore the fact that because GEJ is Christian and from a minority , the increased clamour for him to quit as soon as possble . That is not fair . Unfortunatly, our selection of preident has been based or rooted in religion and tribe hence the reason why Nigeria is having a stunted growth.

Y do you think the freebie loving leeches would want him to have another four years, he has stepped on their toes too many times, he opened up the fuel depots in the east to prevent suffering, reducing their strangle hold on the products distribution, he also exposed them as the major beneficiaries of the subsidy profits... you think they would want to wait and watch him move free oil money from their lips, move control of the oil economy to the Nigerdelta,and discourage laziness and leeching?
They are fighting very hard ooo

I sincerely believe all schools from kindergarten to PHD should be privately owned and run...again it is down to the issue of blanket subsidies as we have in the oil sector...

Blanket subsidies actually try to create an artificial condition that will end up imploding on itself...

My suggestions are govt encourages private owned schools and sells off the existing govt owned ones, and then
identify those who cannot pay school fees for valid reasons,
for nursery,primary and secondary, the local govt pays your fees, you are fee to choose any school within the LGA as long as they accept you

For tertiary learning, those who cannot pay the fees should go for govt guaranteed loans, they are free to choose any school of their choice, this would be state govt run.....

For areas too poor to build schools, state and local govt can build schools and immediately sell off to private people who can pay over a period of time..

The FG has no business in this sector apart for overall educational policy formulation and regulations, eg NUC


The present system of government in running schools has succeded in creating two classes of schools, govt( for the have nots) and private (for the haves) , and again govt does not have moral rights to insist on standards being maintained when itself cannot maintain standards i running schools

Education should not be free...period!

I already know that freebie loving leaches will not support this ideas ...so fvuk u too

emmatok: I thought b GET had an agreement with the IGBOS.

https://www.nairaland.com/914906/jonathan-ll-hand-over-igbo

Yes he does, its now 2019! so suck as much as you can now beacuse the game will soon be uyp

By just examining a cross section of those hurling insults at GEJ, you can tell the sections of the country that do not want Jonathan back...They are actually so pissed that they want to break away from this country but the thought of loosing free oil money keeps them hanging on like leeches...educated leeches...

GEJ is free to contest in 2015, let the blood sucking leeches burn to death if its too much to bear...

Kabikala: Well, DaLover, regarding the bolded part of your statement, you are absolutely wrong. Many underdeveloped countries are improving access and use of contraceptives for their people. Ethiopia increased its Contraceptive Prevalence Rate (CPR - the proportion of married women of reproductive age using a modern contraceptive method) from 8% in 2000 to 15% in 2005 and 29% in 2011, yet they are a very poor country. While Nigeria has a CPR of 10%, Ghana has 19%, India 49% and Iran 77%. In Brazil, average number of children per woman is 2.5 while Nigerians have an average of 5.7. All these countries are developing countries but you can see that those that prioritize the issue of how to address population explosion are all making progress.
It is like the egg and chicken. Do you wait for development before checking unrestrained population growth? Or you tackle the challenge of population explosion in your quest to achieve development?

@Kobojunkie: Thumbs up for your ability to see the big picture!

I just don't understand why people will keep insisting on implementing policies that have either failed or are failing...to me this amounts to hitting ur head against a brick wall hoping that it would move.....in this country nigeria we have tried several enlightenment campaigns with remarkable failure....and it doesnt occur to yoj guys that what is at play here is a cultural attitude, and one of the greatest changers of such cultural attitudes is social economical directions......

Look at this simple example, in nigeria now, middle class people working in banks, oil companies, telecoms sector, insurance etc are having 3 or 4 children at most....there was no enlightenment campaigns, no punitive taxes, no free condoms campaigns......how and why are these middle class nigerians deciding to have smaller managable families.....

As long as poor people feel that one of the many spawn children is a possible ticket to a good life, he will keep trying his luck.....tdying to point out the negatives to him and he will say na blessings from God...

Saying that we cant wait to be developed before population reduces means u r getting it wrong because it shows that you are like kobojunkie in your subconscious believe that nigerian can never develop.....now if you have choosen to express this believe indirectly, why should the country remain one then?

alj harem: where is the Niger-delta ?

Where does it start and stop ?

Please we would like to know.

Resource control applied across board......not where Niger delta starts or stops!

All this to justify the need to leech onto crude oil sales....but just consider an imaginary situation where oil flow suddenly stops today, I mean right now? what would happen? There would be mass deaths and starvation abi? Insisting that spreading oil wealth around is the worse from of corruption being perpetrated on the Nigerian society....

People have been sitting down waiting every month for oil money for the past 30years and there is no improvement, we have replaced person after person and still no improvement,we need to stop encouraging laziness...

There is no reason why Govt should be distributing products to people, people can do that themselves, has it occurred to the laziness supporters here that there would be no corruption of the scale in the downstream sector if the Govt was not involved there?
Yet people see govt as a father Christmas to do all things.....

the problem is a lot more than corruption, it about running on a faulty structure that encourages corruption, if the structure is removed the corruption reduces drastically, Y cant you get this simple logic?

Nigeria is set for a show down between the supports of the systems encouraging laziness and the others....

@HNosegbe
There is already all form of laws for female education and child marriages...but guess what...they are not working

Industrialization can be achieved when we try to skillfully manage corruption, not fool ourselves trying to eliminate it...
Nigeria is corrupt but telecoms companies are working, airlines are working, Banks are working etc...all sectors the govt got out of and decided to strictly perform it regulatory functions...

The same way power can work, oil industries, manufacturing etc, can work....10 years max we can be on the path to glory, even with a corrupt govt...but the catch is to reduce govt interference.....but if people like you keep insisting that govt should perform the roll of father christmass....sorry then

HNosegbe: I have never disagreed with the economics of subsidy removal-No country can afford to subsidise imports for son long. The problem is, subsidy removal in Nigeria is first and foremost a political issue. As far as the average Nigerian is concerned, subsidy removal means increase in prices, increase in prices means further punishment. And it doesn't help that our "leaders" are so extravagant and wasteful in their spending. Its gonna be tough convincing Nigerians that the country is in dire straits financially.

My stance remains exactly what it was back in January: Government must be seen to lead the way in making sacrifices and pushing through austerity measures. Unnecessary legislative bonuses must stop. Legislators pay should be limited to a fixed amount per sitting. Estacodes must stop. Recurrent expenditure must be cut to below 50% of our budget. The practice of buying jeeps for senators every 4 years must cease. The bloated and unproductive civil service must be restructured. The corruption in the oil sector must be tacked head-on, with culprits found guilty and sent to prison.

There are a lot of symbolic gestures that must be taken by government to convince Nigerians to make such sacrifices. Until these things are done, the man on the street will not appreciate the need to remove subsidy.

Guy if you can agree with me that the reason for the large corruption in the first place is the extensive government in everything then you may see the need to remove the oil subsidy...this goes far beyond prosecuting a few people and trowing them into jail...it a lifestyle brought about by a system that encourages laziness and creates unrealistic economic conditions that foster corruption....this needs to be changed, otherwise fighting corruption in the present system is like trying to fetch water with a basket.

Beaf: What is wrong with people demanding that their states and LG's actually function and generate wealth as occurs the World over?
There is nothing stopping the states and LG's from doing so.

The question has to be asked if most Nigerians have been so traumatized by oppression that they have lost the use of their brains. Failing this as a reason, then the question becomes if most Nigerians are mentally and physically lazy.

I am sick and tired of hearing id!otic arguments for our continued dependence on oil.

Beaf i think as long as people continue to receive free oil allocations, the mental laziness will continue, for now it is you chop I chop syndrome all the way.... the elite are sharing theirs so the populace must get theirs in the form of subsidy...what really pains me is that the opposition dont see anything wrong with this. Instead they keep hammering on how to improve sharing formulas....

I pray something happens to the oil flow...make our sense re-appear from where e dey hide..

HNosegbe: @Da Lover,

That was why I mentioned the need for education to be extended, especially girl-child education. Too many female children drop out early from school, and the next thing is to become the 4th or 5th wife of some randy old aboki, after which she begins to produce children like a toy factory.

If female children are kept in school longer, coupled with legislation banning marriage below the age of 18, it will be a first step. The harder work of changing the mindsets of people will take a longer period, but for now we have to force the issue.

Unfortunately education is a means to an end...not an end in itself, the end game is opportunities for improved living standards, these opportunities will come where jobs are created, these jobs will come when we industrialize,

Hence no industries, no opportunities, no encouragement to go to school, no keeping girl child in school longer.

Look, you have to look at how what you are saying is going to be implemented, saying things like govt should enforce child limits and keeping girls in school sound beautiful and quick to achieve...you are asking an already overstretched corrupt government to do more, when people like me are saying the govt should hands off the plenty load it is carrying and focus on the difficult task of industrializing this country through policy formulation and enforcement....

I can actually feel gbawe typing his next post with tears in his eyes,
[b]A[/b]lternative for [b]C[/b]orruption in [b]N[/b]igeria ACN

^^^please be patient, the graphics card on his PC is faulty due to over use

HNosegbe: I took my time to read every single response to this all-important issue before airing my view. I think there is one important aspect that hasn't been highlighted yet-the impact of unrestrained population growth on our environment. Rapid growth in a firewood-dependent country like ours will spell doom for our forests, since we will have to use more and more firewood to meet our energy needs (since we have failed to put our cheaply available gas to good use, hey what gives?). This will clearly abet the manifestation of the tripartite environmental evils: global warming, climate change and desertification.

As for the industrialisation argument, it may, despite its apparent success elsewhere, be a double-edged sword here because some families may eventually decide that they can afford more children. It could go both ways, really.

In a deeply religious country where contraception is still frowned upon and many families still believe it is "God's will" to have 15 children, I think the best approach will be a combination of the following: An adjustment to personal income tax that aims to penalise families who have more than 3 children, enacting and enforcing legislation to ensure ALL children (especially females) complete secondary school as well as legislation outlawing marriage before the age of 18.

The fact is, government will need to take a much tougher stance against families who choose to mass-produce children. Our population growth must be better managed, if those of us who are alive are to enjoy life in this country. There is no other way.

@bold how? set up an agency, dedicate funds, personnel's, buy hiluxes all over the place.....please lets be realistic....how do you even begin to set up machinery to tax people operating in the grey unbanked sector? OK assume you can achieve this... how do you convince moslems not to marry more than one wife or to marry 4 wives and have one child each from each....?

There is no country that has both improving economy and increasing populaation growth even lazy oil countries like Libya, Saudi and U.A.E.. it just doesn't happen.


Think about it..if you are like me a middle class guy in his 30s, working in a decent oil company, you will not see any of your colleagues having 5 children? except very few....now who told them to have less children?

In a lot of social commentary I have come across, these 2 words appear to be used interchangeable
For instance the popular agitation by the Niger-delta has been for 50% derivation, My
question is should we be asking for 50% derivation or 50% resource control?

To me the two word have two totally different meanings in terms of implementation and policies and if you ask me as a nigerdeltan, I would prefer to have resource control where I pay 87% tax to the FG/Center than 50% derivation..

Guys whats your take on this

@Kobo,
The agreed problem is potential population explosion in the medium term, there is no doubt about that....

I take it that your solution is campaigns against producing unlimited children plus enforcing limits like has worked in only one country, i.e china
My Solution is to remove traditional believes, by improving economic standards trough industrialization, as has happened in several other countries..

Honestly sha both solutions are workable but
Taxing the poorest of the poor or taxing a core northern moslem for marring 4 wives and have 12 kids seams like a hard sell to me.. I believe option is a subtle way of saying Nigeria will never be industrialized.

@Kobojunkie and ekt_bear,
Y are you both insisting on stuff that is not practicable or enforcable?
I.E family planing in a poor under developed country?

Don't get me wrong, I am for family planning but it cannot work in an under developed country like Nigeria....or any other underdeveloped country (except china...and we all know y).

History and common knowledge has shown that countries that experience economic growth also experience a natural reduction in population growth....weather from USA to Asia to Brazil to Europe... its the same story......while poor countries have high growth rates and the reason is in the original post in case you did not see it..

Let me post it again in case you did not read it the first time

Kilode?!:
Nigeria Tested By Rapid Rise in Population
By ELISABETH ROSENTHAL


There are signs that the shifting economics and lifestyles of middle-class Africans may help turn the tide, Dr. Ogunjuyigbe said. As Nigeria urbanizes, children’s help is not needed in fields; the extended families have broken down. “Children were seen as a kind of insurance for the future; now they are a liability for life,” he said.


Dr. Eloundou-Enyegue worries that Africa’s modestly declining birthrates reflect relatively rich, educated people reducing to invest in raising “quality” children, while poor people continue to have many offspring, strengthening divisions between haves and have-nots. “When you have a system with a large degree of corruption and inequality, it’s hard not to be playing the lottery because it increases the chances that one child will succeed,” he said.

In Nigeria’s desperately poor neighbor, Niger, women have on average more than seven children, and men consider their ideal to be more than 12. But with land divided among so many sons, the size of a typical family plot has fallen by more than a third since 2005, meaning there is little long-term hope for feeding children, said Amadou Sayo, of the aid group CARE.

To poor people having many children is like a lottery, one might make it and rescue the lot, preaching family planing to these set of people will have limited impact...ever wonder why rich or middle class people have fewer children than poor people?

oduasolja: look at this dummy . go do ur research

http://ilajeusa.com/History.htm

http://www.coastalnews.com/profile/government-profile/638-ilaje-local-government-ondo-state-nigeria.html

and lets not talk of the offshore oil being produced off the coast of ondo state.

Na wa oo, mr sensible you have done your research and come back with a link posted by one of the contesteant for the land... let me post another link by the other contestant for the land
http://www.unitedijaw.com/egbemaclan.htm

doesn't this make you feel stupid

ekt_bear: Nah.

I'm not sure that industrialization alone will induce lower population growth. One doesn't necessarily follow from the other.

So what do you think will,
remember i did not say industrialization will directly do it, but I illustrated a chain of events that need to happen, i.e industrialization or if you want to go deeper, restructuring governance to encourage productivity of the populace.

How much of it any idea? and funny enuf, its the Ijaw areas of Ondo state!!

reagand200: physics suggested a solution/solutions but kobo kept flunking them and nobody here has a better idea.
Me think in a case where nobody has a better clue, we analyse physics idea and concretize it except somebody else comes up with a better one.
Oya now!

As for analysis see my initial post

DaLover: PhysicsQED was trying to pass a message to floor of the the house but nobody seemed to listen, some even took to attacking him....

The solution is industrialization simple, thanks physicsQED and sorry for the unprovoked and unintelligent attacks from you know who...

The way I see it, industrialization > economic empowerment > improved educations and standard of living> reduction in number of children due to balloting attitude.... this is what I believed happened in Asia that had a similar population growth with us as at independence......

But what is preventing us from industrializing? the present unitary structure of government, where government tried to drive growth by trying to run everything and ends up spoiling everything is the key reason....caused by the need to depend on free oil...

Dividing Nigeria will probably break this need and enable people sit up...
This is what I understand from physicsQED post, please correct me if I am wrong...

As for concretisizing it... I believe the fist thing to be done is to get the Government out of running businesses..Power, health, Education, fuel subsidies....
Thats a good starting point.