₦airaland Forum

TAO11:
(1)(a). I can't type in Edo language, I would have made the following easier for you to read. You may, however, hire a cheap interpreter/translator for the purpose of reading the quote below to you:

"During the era of Ife's greatest historic power, the twelfth to fifteenth centuries C.E., its influence spanned eastward to The Niger River and westward to what is today's southern Togo*."

Reference:
S.P. Blier, Art and Risk in Ancient Yoruba: Ife History, Power, and Identity, c.1300, 2010, p.2..

If you know anything about Nigeria map, then you should have realized, at this point, that your little Benin Kingdom lies within this expanse of Ife's influence.

Moreover, during this period (12th to 15th centuries) your little Benin Kingdom is hardly a force to reckon with even among Edo speaking peoples.

Ewuare who brought Benin to limelight didn't begin to reign until towards the end of the 15th century. Argue with your Benin chronology.

(b). Having said that, I am not sure if you're partially amnesiac, or you're simply a mythomaniac who has a very strong believe in his own ability to lie.

I say this because just a few days ago, you directed a similar inane question to me, and you brought forward a screenshot of an article as your evidence.

It turned out that the screenshot fails to say what you wish it says. It also turned out that the article (from which you got your own screenshot) has the following to say:

"Phase 2. ("900A.D. - 1450A.D.")
Ife emerged as a power in the region after the main wave of Yoruba expansion and cultural differentiation."

Reference: 
Robin Horton, "Ancient Ife: A Reassessment", Journal of the Historical Society of Nigeria, Vol. 9, No. 4 (JUNE 1979), p.140..

See the link below for a reminder of the humiliation you endured before finally fleeing quietly:

https://www.nairaland.com/5314103/benins-first-educated-nigerians-dr/7#89077140

(2). The only rich details I remeber at the moment is of how Ibadan invaded territories of Benin Kingdom, raided them for slaves, and sacked many of the settlements there within Benin Kingdom. Don't you remember this rich details?? Or isn't it rich enough?


(3). Although historical accounts say otherwise as can be seen from the two independent references cited above, I would however love to see you cite from only one of your so-called "all historical account [which] shows [Ife] was a small and decayed village from 12th century onwards".

This shouldn't be too difficult for you considering that only one of these davidnazeestorical-sources is what I request.

It seems to be hightime you're finally freed from your schizophrenia, and let go of your imaginary playmates who, during play time, inform you of these "all historical account".

So how does this your long epistle answer my question? Your responses always gives u away. Don’t try to hide behind long epistles and insults, if you don’t know just say so.

Well just like there is no factual details about Ife as a great Kingdom between 12th and 18th centuries (and well before that period too) so also there’s no true account of Ife lordship over your own Yoruba Kingdom because Ife was never real.
It wasn’t a great Kingdom ruling over other kingdoms.. it was just a village where the Oracle (native doctor) lived.

As for your Ibadan claims I’m happy you agree that vast parts of Yoruba territories was under Great Benin Kingdom because the only part of Benin Kingdom Ibadan invaded was the Yoruba parts. So it’s a case of brother invading brothers lol.

TAO11:
I'm not sure why you need more hands in this beffitting burial I'm giving you. So you can claim this as a case of child abuse? 


Anyways, the challenge for you is still open:

Provide me a book written between 1475 and 1930 with the mention of the name "Ekalderhan". I will send you $2500 to cushion the effect of the lockdown if you can.

And if you can't, then know that such person does not exist and your ancestors have been deceived.aid that.

In case you're not only an illiterate, but also partially amnesiac, scroll up same thread to see how I humiliated you on your moronic challenge.

I dont know which part of Yoruba you are from but I will like to ask you this:
Please can you provide me an historical account from your own oral or written tradition with timeline when Ife was Lord and master over your own Yoruba kingdom of origin. If you are not from Ife you must be from another Yoruba kingdom. If Ife was Lord over the greatest Kingdom (Benin Kingdom) during the period Benin Kingdom was judged to be powerful, then Ife surely will be Lord over Yoruba Kingdoms during that period too.. So can you give me a detailed account showing Ife as Lord over your Yoruba kingdoms.
Please don;t say Yorubas descended from Ife, that is not the same as Ife ruling Yoruba kingdoms.. I believe we can provide historical accounts showing Oyo ruling over many Yoruba kingdoms, accounts showing British rule over African kingdoms and also a lot of rich details of Great Benin ruling over Yoruba kingdoms.. Please give me details of Ife ruling over your own Yoruba kingdom of Origin..
I'm still trying to understand how Ife that all historical account shows was a small and decayed village from 12th century onwards and whose acclaimed glory was already a whisper and myth as at 12th century was a powerful kingdom..

lawani:
centuries ago, an ife man was made king by the oracle in Benin, the story is in the ifa corpus under odi meji, if you know any babalawo you may ask them, the story is there. That man brought thousands of Yoruba with him and made Yoruba the lingual franca of the new empire he built, he called his capital Ife Ibinu which was later corrupted to Benin. Yoruba was the lingual franca of the empire. The oba was only addressed in the Yoruba language. The people of ugbodu delta migrated from Benin and they still speak a Yoruba dialect like that of owo.

Centuries ago, an Edo prince was forced to leave Edo and following the divination of an Oracle he met he was told to journey west for his destiny lies west, and also to achieve his destiny he had to take on a new name. After many years He arrived in Ife, a small and thinly populated village. His charisma and good manners made him popular among the natives and gained him many followers. In time this Edo prince challenged the authority of the ruling entity in Ife and after a brief struggle the Edo prince won and became the ruler of Ife.
His name was Ekhaladeran also known as Izoduwa corrupted to Oduduwa by the Ife people.

hayoholla:
This greyboy, na wa to you oo. Why are you so stubborn to learn. Most times, I believe you are oblivious of what you type before you post them. You said egharevba mother is ondo, ogbo ato said he's from benin. But you reply is unless proven with fact, as if you've proven any fact that his mother is from ondo, Ogbo Ato, I wonder how you dey take argue with this guy. He just love to twist corners unnecessarily

What are you expecting him to learn? rubbish and lies from the Yorubas?

lawani:
the Yoruba spoken in the Benin empire was the dialect in owo today. I know ewuare is Yoruba for danger will pass over and eweka is owomika meaning I can't handle it. A former oba was also named ogun. Many of the names have meanings in Yoruba.

This is the story you are using to comfort yourself.. yoruba the official language of Benin lol.. nothing we have not heard from you guys.
Anyways historical accounts of Benin/Yoruba relationship will always be contested and argued.. The only part of history that cannot be contested is that, Benin Kingdom conquered and ruled vast parts of Yorubalands and people..

TAO11:
Provide your evidence son of naked ancestors.

I think that at a point in history, your ancestors were definetly running around naked too, but at no point in history were my ancestors conquered and subjugated like your ancestors were conquered for hundreds of years by my powerful naked ancestors..

OgboAto:
LOL what cloth?
As at 1890s Bini people were mostly naked. Did you sell of all your rags in that part of Nigeria to waltz around naked till your Yoruba king clothes you?


TAO11

So it should be shameful to all you Yorubas that the naked Bini people till as at 1890 were ruling your ancestors.. no be only naked, we were living on tree tops too lol..
As usual its your lies and frustration vs the truth and facts.. Even your Ijebu village was tributary to Mighty Benin Kingdom.. painful thing for you is that this will be a topic you will forever argue and try to debunk because history already recorded it..

TAO11:
Oh, you ignored your Oba saying Oranmiyan is his ancestor?? Fair enough!

And yes people can always at some later point learn to wear/sell clothes.

And you ignore statements from my Oba saying Oranmiyan is descended from Ekhaladeran known to the Yorubas as Oduduwa?? Fair enough!

TAO11:
timestamp 13:30. i won't say a word!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXvXupQwaz0&t=822s


And lastly, the Ijebus were among those responsible for clothing your cave-dwelling and fruit-gathering ancestors.

Lol.. still grabbing at anything Benin abi..
Its on record that one of Benin major trade was in clothing.. Benin was renown for clothing trade not Ijebu..
Its also on record that Ihebu was temprarily subjugated by Mighty Benin Kingdom.

lawani:
It can not be gain said that Yoruba was the lingua franca of the Benin empire. Even today, ugbodu people in delta speak yoruba and they claim to have migrated from Benin. The long and short of it is that the Benin empire like her sister Yoruba states like Ijesa, Ijebu etc are Yoruba achievements in West Africa. I

1. Benin Empire has no blood connection with Yoruba..

2. Please Ijesha and Ijebu did not achieve anything historically worth talking about.. If Ijebu and Ijesha achieved anything Yoruba won;t be bothering themselves with Benin that has continously rejected anything Yoruba..

3. Go an sleep.

TAO11:
That's the point!

They documented it.

I didn't expect an illiterate like you to know.

(Another runaway is loading)

Shut up.. Its only in your deluded mind that non existent documents exists..

TAO11:
We've gone through this before.

You asked for proof that Ife was greater.

And it was provided to you from the same attachment you brought along to support you.

And then you ran away silently without even saying youre sorry.

See below for a refresher:

https://www.nairaland.com/5314103/benins-first-educated-nigerians-dr/7#89077140

I never asked if Ife was greater than Benin because Ife was never and can never be greater than Benin.. I asked you to prove Ife was a great kingdom and all you can provide as proof is Benin Kingdom..

TAO11:
Yoruba language was the lingua franca of Benin Kingdom.

I don't expect an illiterate who hasn't read a book on Benin history to know this!




The challenge for you is shown below:

Provide me a book written between 1475 and 1930 with the mention of the name "Ekalderhan". I will send you $2500 to cushion the effect of the lockdown if you can.

And if you can't, then know that such person does not exist and your ancestors have been deceived.

I always knew your passion is driven by tribalism and you just proved that with you bolden statement above..
If yoruba was the lingua franca of the Benin Palace early visitors to Benin would have documented about it, that the Oba palace spoke Yoruba language.
Now this is your latest foolish claim.. If Yoruba kings/palace are speaking Hausa/Fulani doesn't mean Benin Kings speak Yoruba.. You are the conquered ones.

TAO11:
See the link below where I beheaded you with your sword:

Do you remember?

Where you requested me to prove that Ife was greater than Benin.

And when I did you then ran away without even saying you're sorry!

Do you now remember? Refer to the link for a refresher.

https://www.nairaland.com/5314103/benins-first-educated-nigerians-dr/7#89077140

Ife greater than Benin Kingdom? You are a joker..
Benin Kingdom was the greatest and most powerful of all Kingdoms that existed in West Africa.. That is why Benin forever will be addressed as "Great Benin" Imperial Benin" Powerful Kingdom of Benin, Mighty Benin.. You don't hear that about any Yoruba Kingdoms and definetly not tiny village Ife.

TAO11:
Because I didn't let you sleep peacefully those times.

Anyways, link below is where you should be addressing now:

https://www.nairaland.com/5314103/benins-first-educated-nigerians-dr/7#89077140

Oya, before I open my eyes ... alele!!

There's no need arguing with a tribal bigot.. You can keep wishing for Mighty Benin Kingdom.

samuk:
Guy, why? Don't you think I am already causing enough damage, don't you want TAO11 to sleep peacefully tonight?

Honestly I dont want TAO11 or any Yoruba revisionist to sleep peacefully at all.. its painful to them knowing that Benin kingdom was greater than all Yoruba kingdoms.

TAO11:
Of course, 1500s and 1600s European writings (as well Johnson's work completed in 1897) are all aFtEr 1897.

Challenge For You for a whooping $2500:

Provide me a book written between 1475 and 1930 with the mention of the name "Ekalderhan". I will send you $2500 to cushion the effect of the lockdown if you can.

And if you can't, then know that such person does not exist and your ancestors have been deceived.

I believe if Benin Kingdom was actually Yoruba with Yoruba population, you would probably be saying you conquered Britain..
I know it is frustrating that the only historic achievement Yorubas lay claim to is being taken from them..

RedboneSmith:
Roupell who was involved in the invasion of 1897 also wrote that the Palace Officials told him that Benin people sent to Ife for a king and Eweka was sent to them.

Please can you provide a reference to above submission u just made?

samuk:
Are you serious right now or joking?

So Ife declined and stopped producing artworks because of the rise of Benin and later Oyo.

According to your sources, the rise of Oyo and Benin attracted people away from Ife, who probably migrated to new headquarters of commerce, why did the people that left Ife to Oyo not continue with the artistic tradition in Oyo or any of the other Yoruba towns they migrated to.

You also suggested that both Benin and Oyo took trade out of Ife, meaning Ife lost the market for their artworks to Benin.

Who were Ife selling their artworks to before the rise of Benin and Oyo who took over Ife trade routes?

Why are there no more of Ife artworks discovered across Nigeria or other west Africa countries that they would have sold their arts to in commercial quantities.

Why did Benin continue with their artistic skills even after Benin empire ended in 1897, over 100 years ago.

There is no reason for Ife to have stopped producing their artworks because of the rise of Benin and Oyo.

Benin artworks were not originally sold, so there were no art markets that Benin took away from Ife. Benin artworks were the exclusive preserves of the Oba.

The truth is those artworks were not originally made in Ife.

You must really think the audience on this thread are daft and lack reasoning ability, well some may lack logic but not everybody are stupid.

Learn how to say you don't know the answer to some questions rather than attempting to answer all questions with fabrications.

I am still waiting for the day you guys will write anything about Ife without the mention of Benin.

Ife rises with the mention of Benin and Ife falls with the mention of Benin. Nothing about Ife can be validated without the mention of Benin.

Ife can never be great without Benin.. Everything they have said about Ife is Benin, take Benin out of it and there is no Ife.

TAO11:
Not a single one of your 10 fallacies above was left unaddressed in my replies to RemessesIV.

I am not surprised that all your points are at variance with reality.

It is understandable since you do not read. You're a stark illiterate.

I busted all your lies, so it is understandable that you should be mad at me and pained by my answers!

How many bronze casting sites or pits were discovered in Ife? was any ancient bronze casting sites found in Ife?

OgboAto:
You are not very smart. It is common knowledge that no one came from Mecca. The analysis and basis for all of those nonsense has been analyzed in journal articles, if only you'll read. It has been established no one migrated from Mecca/Sudan/Egypt. In addition, the production sites and tools of Ife arts have been uncovered and detailed in studies. Why are you getting involved in issues beyond your academic level? See the first two attached images.

Secondly, you're only deluding yourself with the street lamp fables that many of you vomit into each other's mouths. Bini was a place of filth and disgust to the Europeans. It was a run down place of slavery & endless ritual murders where decapitated human bodies and bones littered the streets in hundreds. You should be thankful for the punitive expedition, else your ancestors would have probably been murdered as votive to your deities. I've attached just two pages describing Bini's barbarity and dilapidated town but there's more if you want the truth about your town.

You are funny, and probably not smart.
you had earlier described some whitemen as racist because they claimed the works of Africans were made by ancient europeans but now accept the theory of a white man who seek to degrade an African civilization and reject the eye witness accounts of other white men who praised benin and described it as a civilized and well organized beautiful city.

Well there are multiple accounts written about Benin that says Benin was an organized and well planned city, and many Europeans lived in Benin and never wrote about what u just mentioned above.. U can out of jealousy quickly accept the racist accounts that suits ur purpose.

samuk:
A simple questions was asked about evidence to support the claim that Ife Bronzes were made in Ife and not brought by the people you claimed came from Egypt or Macca to colonised the people and land.

You have failed to produce any credible evidence to support the claims that the Bronzes dug up in Ife were made there by Ife people, you are asking me to provide evidence that Benin written history is 500 years older than Ife history that started in 1920.

Benin tell real history whilst you guys copy and paste stories that were written in 20th century.

If Benin tell you that they produce 20ft iron poles that houses oil lamps to light up the Palace and the square around the Palace 400 years ago, a precursor to modern Street lights and Benin being amongst the first few cities in world with semblance of Street lights, we back it up with an independent eyewitness written accounts that was written in that period, not some 1960 or 1980 fabrications.

The problem with Ife history is that everything about it is in myths. even between the period of 15th century onward when this part of Africa was almost open to the outside world and documents were written about european encounters with the native africans they met nothing came out of ife, ife was still unknown during this period but yet they claim it was overlord to the greatest kingdom at that time.

Ife claim to have brought the art of bronze making to benin but yet there's no evidence of bronze work ever been done there, even today bronze are not made in Ife. Ife is the only great (acclaimed) kingdom whose history is only narrated by archeological digs and hypotesis.

If Ife was actually a great kingdom, that greatness vanished long before the rise of Benin kingdom and it never influenced Benin in any way.

OgboAto:
LOL the emboldened parts show the inadequacies exuded by the laymen who speak on matters of History. Why not face the discipline you had degrees in and leave History to Historians, eh?

Eye witness accounts are pitfalls laden, they're not ultimate and history does not regard it as such. The Historian is not just a story teller as you've made it seem, he's trained to employ and exhaust all sources when writing & to, from his background, detect gaps in accounts. Don't insult the craft some people have given their entire lives to. Do not shxt on the craft many in universities across the world labour daily to master. Rather, accept your own inadequacies in History stemming from your choice to study other disciplines. What you should do is focus on your craft, whatever discipline it was you went to school to study and contribute to or critique it.

Please are you an historian?

TAO11:
C'mon, we all know you are crying na!

You've been conquered and subjugated on different threads from whuch you've fled. Do you want me to start counting?

Anyways, I'm waiting for you to address my last mention to you!

I’m not an internet warrior so I don’t know how to conquer people online but real fact is: my ancestors conquered and ruled your ancestors for hundreds of years.. even your most powerful Kingdom Oyo recoiled sharply before a powerful Benin Kingdom.

TAO11:
Lol...

Your unnamed attachment says things like:

(a) "... there is yet no evidence ..."

(b) "...we can not in the light of present evidence..."

These satements are clearly contigent on time (if you know what that means), and are therefore bound to change subsequent to the year they were being made.

I therefore challenge you to provide the following:

(1) The author (or full reference) of these statements.

(2) The year these statements were made.

(3) Evidence that they were made prior to the historical statements I quoted.

So you like evidence yet you cannot provide a single evidence to support your claim that small ife was great Kingdom between 12 and 19 centuries.

macof:
LOL. As TAO11 said "delusions"
Go and cry in your usual corner kid

Delusion is when you say a small powerless village ruled over a mighty and powerful Kingdom.
I guess u don’t know the meaning of delusion even tho you like to play with words.

I’m not crying oo. I have never been conquered or subjugated so why I go cry?
you should be the one crying and hurt, we know your history.

TAO11:
(1) "During the era of Ife's greatest historic power, the twelfth to fifteenth centuries C.E., its influence spanned eastward to The Niger River and westward to what is today's southern Togo*."

Reference:
S.P. Blier, Art and Risk in Ancient Yoruba: Ife History, Power, and Identity, c.1300, p.2.

(2) See also that attachment that triggers cardiac-arrest within you.



cc: macof, do you also notice that self-delusions have gripped these kids full-blown lately?

The bold statement above is an assumption that isn’t backed with further information on that supposed influence of Ife.
So let’s limit our time frame to 12th to 14th centuries. Please provide any detail on any event about Ife within that time frame. Ife ceased to exist many hundreds of years before 12th century. Every record of Ife greatness dates the supposed greatness to hundreds of years before 12th century.
And it’s on record that Ife was a very small village after 12th century, no power, no territories no growth, constantly invaded with the few residents fleeing into the forests.
Ife during Benin reign was nothing and that’s a fact not myth.

TAO11:
(1) I'm clearly talking to someone autistic here.

Someone who says: yes, Ife existed from the 4th century BC.

Who also says: yes, Ife continues to exist today.

But who conludes from these statement to say no, Ife doesn't exist in between.

Anyways, to accommodate your autism, see below:

"During the era of Ife's greatest historic power, the twelfth to fifteenth centuries C.E., its influence spanned eastward to The Niger River and westward to what is today's southern Togo*."

Reference:
S.P. Blier, Art and Risk in Ancient Yoruba: Ife History, Power, and Identity, c.1300, p.2.

(2) Also find attached that historical reference you hate so much.

.

Is it very difficult for u to make sense or comprehend simple tasks?
If I had said prove Oyo greatness I know u would happily post documents detailing Oyo wars and conquests, expansion, territories it held its trade and economy, probably rich details of Oyo. But now u are asked to do same for Ife to prove its existence during 12th to 19th centuries you are panicking. Only thing u can provide (because that’s all there is) about Ife is a supposed statement by a Benin chief.
There’s nothing to say about Ife to support its fictitious reign over Benin.
Ife can be summarized as “The village where the native doctor lived”.

macof:
It's not myth if supported by historical evidence and can be fit properly into general chronology

Also your hurt feelings don't count :* sorry baby

Any historical evidence for Ife within 12th and 19th centuries points to the fact that Ife was a small underpopulated village, many times abandoned and was in fear of its neighbors. That is the only evidence of Ife from those centuries.
Those evidence describes (it’s actually also documented) Ife as not great and almost non existent.
I wonder who is hurt lol. Me that my kingdom is described as great or you that yours is said to be dead lol.

Ife can be great to you, I won’t argue that but it was never Lord over Benin. It was too small and powerless to do that.

macof:
It's not fictitious when supported with records and reliable sources

Any history that is narrated by only myths is fictitious to me. Anyways I’m more concerned with Ife from 12th to 19th centuries. Ife during that time was not great, was correctly acknowledged to be a small village, very underpopulated and was in constant fear of the little Yoruba Kingdoms around it.
This Ife was never lord over Benin.

TAO11:
Oh, you were born before 2010 and you exist today is evidence that you exist between 2010 and 2011.

Yet Ife's existence by at least the 4th century BC and its existence today somehow doesn't answer dumb request. Wait, are you a Bini? Cos only a Bini can be this strongly m0ronic.

What hurts your butt so badly is the attached historical reference which shows that the Ooni of was imperial, divine, and suzerain over your Benin Kingdom.

Ordinary Ibadan raided territories of your Kingdom for slaves and sacked many territories within your Kingdom.

It’s obvious you have been defeated.. does my request bother you? If you believe Ife was overlord over Benin Kingdom then provide evidence that Ife even existed between 12th and 19th (not 4th century) centuries during the Benin reign.
The fictitious fame and glory of Ife is believed to have died and vanished long before 12th century and Ife itself was acknowledged to be a small and barely populated village and many times abandoned during the centuries of Benin reign.
So if you want to say this small Ife village was overlord over the most powerful Kingdom then u have to provide evidence of a strong Ife during Benin reign.

you have been bringing documents to support your arguments so u should be able to provide something to support Ife existed as a strong Kingdom during 12th to 19th centuries and wasn’t dead by that time.

TAO11:
(1) When you bring me proof you existed between 2010 and 2011. Although you were born before 2010 and you exist today.

Your grand idiocy should be obvious to you now.

Only an autistic Benin mind will come up with such request.


(2) Regarding the document, it's wasnt about Benin only and it's about other places too, but it particularly states that the Ooni of Ife is suzerain over Benin Kingdom. I know you saw it.

Binis be pretending to be blind! (See it again).

I was born before 2010 but I can narrate places I visited between 2010 and 2011 and people I encountered and businesses I conducted within that time. Only a dull and shallow Yoruba person will never understand how to make a point.

I know u know Ife had no power or territories between 12th and 19th centuries and Benin conquered all the Yoruba Kingdoms around Ife including those that troubled Ife. You just can’t comprehend how they did it lol.