₦airaland Forum

TAO11:
Nothing of the kinds I requested is in your attachment.

That's perhaps why you didn't bother highlighting anything, or quote statements.

In sum, your attachment contains same general things that I know (and that is expected) about other great kingdoms.

You've changed for the better. You started reading too. Thanks to yours truly! Keep it civil, professional and academic like this, you wil enjoy it.

Cheers!

SilverSniper if you could please email me a copy of Ryder(1969) I will appreciate. I've been looking for it, and I noticed you mentioned it somewhere in one of your comments. Thanks!

Please send it to TAO.11@yahoo.com

TAO11:
You seem to have missed what my specific contention in Dapper's description was, or you chose to avoid it altogether.

Notice that I have highlighted certain aspects of your comment here in bold just to draw your attention to the strawman.

You've argued that certain earlier eyewitness accounts align "pretty much" with aspects of Dapper's remote account.

Yes, if you had paid a closer attention to my foregoing reply, then you would have noticed that certain aspects of Dapper's accounts (such as the greatness of Benin's king and capital, a beautiful palace, amongst other relatively vague and general attributes) are already implied therein to be true and obvious. These are the obvious standard and expection of any dominant kingdom at the time.

My specific contention in relation to which I brought up Dapper (if you care to trace back my comment in that regard) are some specific grandiose descriptions such as "street lights" (as already mentioned on this thread), "shiny walls", etc. --- we've all heard different kinds of these exaggerations at different times.

Now, having zoomed in even more closely on my contentions, can you now direct me to an earlier eyewitness account than Dapper's --- from which Dapper's may have derived --- which contains some or more of these specifics??

And if yes, please quote me the words with detailed refencing. Thanks!

Cheers!

SilverSniper:
The problem with this argument is that the person who authored that paragraph (in 1897) in that weekly newspaper that you have cited, had absolutely no idea, in 1897, about the numerous other contemporary corroborating accounts from eyewitnesses that strongly affirm Dapper's account about the "the greatness of the King of Benin, of his capital". Apart from the fact that Derick Ruiters' earlier eyewitness account (published in 1602 in a book about west Africa by Pieter de Marees) of the streets, the palace, and other aspects of Benin line up perfectly with aspects of Dapper's later account, there is also the fact that the accounts of both a Spanish priest (cited and translated in the appendix of Alan Ryder's 1969 book about Benin) who visited Benin, and the testimony of a later Portuguese ship captain (Lourenço Pinto) who visited Benin (1693) also strongly affirm and agree with multiple aspects of Dapper's account. Actually, the article you keep referring to by Paula Ben-Amos Girshick and John Thornton, is very explicit, on p. 358, about the fact that multiple people from different countries who did actually visit Benin saw pretty much the same kinds of things that Dapper described.

You know that van Nyendael's account describing a capital city wrecked by civil war, in a period when the state which has suffered a severe temporary defeat by the rebel army (led by the former commander of the royal army and his forces), is not going to be a positive account, so I am not sure how the writer's allusion to van Nyendael's account about a temporary situation is somehow proof that the many other earlier accounts are wrong. In any case, after the civil war was resolved in the 1720s, later French visitors to Benin in the late 1700s, such as J.F. Landolphe, or Pierre Labarthe did find a large capital city and a large army there and wrote about it; the article by Ben-Amos Girshick and Thornton even cites Labarthe at the end.

What I will agree with is that numbers such as "100,000" (or more) in historical accounts of pre-modern (pre-modern meaning something like before the last few centuries, the exact cut-off dates for what separates "modern" from "medieval" and "ancient" are often arbitrary) armies in both European or Arabic sources of any state, except in certain special cases, are often exaggerations. But the meaning that historians usually take from such descriptions, when other aspects of such descriptions are credible, is that the people giving such accounts are trying to describe a state with a very large army, lots of power, etc. If you object to "100,000" or similarly large numbers being taken literally, that is fine, although that objection should apply consistently to all the powerful states in the west African region that were described as having such numbers of soldiers by outside visitors. I don't think historians focus too much on the specific number when talking about total army sizes (rather than the numbers of soldiers present at specific battles, which is a different thing) of a state in those older historical accounts so much as the meaning the account was trying to convey about the power of the state.

TAO11:
That's the point:

(1) Dapper was not an eyewitness.

(2) And he collected his not from records of eyewitnesses.

(3) It all falls back therefore to oral tradition.

TAO11:
Cite me one European work which Dapper quotes from, which says some of those nonsense that he says.

So we can check the work directly, otherwise your fantastic Benin world falls back to oral tradition.

TAO11:
Benin was SACKED and became a MERE VILLAGE is what the scholars submitted.

In other words, Benin became deserted by its people.

In other words, its people got absorbed as refugees into neighbouring communities and adjacent towns/kingdoms.

It is from there that they could possibly have continued their infamous attacks on others peace-loving people, some of who may even be their host.


It is in (at least) three of such attacks on other peace-loving people that I noted that Benin kingdom was disgraced --- at least twice by Owo, and at least once by Otun-Ekiti.

TAO11:
Do you have any sense of dates at all?? ??

I quoted you evidence showing that Benin Kingdom was was RACKED and GROUNDED BY civil war from around 1690 up until well into the 1700s

Yet you are here showing me what happened at the tail end of the 1700s --- 1790 to be precise.

In fact, point out one statement in that your attachment which shows that event described therein was not happening in a mere village.


I actually just realized now that one of your Oba was a fvcking gambler.

TAO11:
Do you have any sense of dates at all?? ??

I quoted you evidence showing that Benin Kingdom was was RACKED and GROUNDED BY civil war from around 1690 up until well into the 1700s

Yet you are here showing me what happened at the tail end of the 1700s --- 1790 to be precise.

In fact, point out one statement in that your attachment which shows that event described therein was not happening in a mere village.


I actually just realized now that one of your Oba was a fvcking gambler.

TAO11:
Benin paid tributes to Oyo as Crowther shows and as Johnson also shows.

Nupe also paid tributes to Oyo.

And Benin was reduced to a mere village.


Wake me up, whenever you have something new that you haven't already been flogged on.

TAO11:
LIAR CAUGHT RED-HANDED.

My people let's see what scholars said below oo jarey:

"Towards the end of the seventeenth century, a number of European observers noted that THE EDO KINGDOM OF BENIN HAD BEEN RACKED FOR SOME YEARS BY CIVIL WAR. One of the longest accounts, that of David van Nyendael, reported that as a result of this civil war, BENIN CITY HAD BEEN SACKED AND IN HIS DAY ("1699-1701" ) WAS REDUCED TO A 'MERE VILLAGE'. Apparently beginning shortly before 1690, the civil war stretched on well into the eighteenth century."

Reference:
Paula Ben-Amos Girshick and John Thornton, "Civil War in the Kingdom of Benin, 1689-1721: Continuity or Political Change?", Journal of African History, 42 (2001), pp.353-354.


Uncle why are you lying na!!?? ?? ??

TAO11:
If you will not twist, not lie, and not take my statement out if its intended context (as you you've already done here for bigotry purposes), then why not.   ??

While I've been addressing all your contentions in full, there is one simple question that you've been consistently avoiding oo. See below: 

Is it true that the gReAt BeNiN kInGdOm was reduced to a MERE VILLAGE ?? ??

Please say No.  Don't disappoint gReAt BeNiN kInGdOm.

samuk:
Without even knowing it, you are terribly in love with Benin.

When the Benins revealed that they were exploring Benin relationship with the Niger Benue confluence area, you immediately reminded them that Ife used to be in that area, you even stated that there is a town there called Ife.

You unwittingly claimed that the Yorubas came from the same area.

I said wow, this babe is ready to move her almighty Ife in Osun state to Kogi state in other to show that the Ife the Benin are looking for was in Kogi. She is out to claim Benin for Ife by fire by force.

You can only see the pain in Babaramota's reply when he read that the Benin are questioning the Benin/Ife relationship.

Metaphysical hasn't been himself since and TAO11 is ready to move her Ife to anywhere the Benin looks.

The Yoruba love and obsession with Benin is something else.

samuk:
Poor Babaramota, he didn't know that TAO11 has since droved Metaphysical away from this thread days ago.

The reasons Metaphysical would not dear share such history here are.

1. TAO11 warned him not to do so because such will spoil the Yorubas fabricated argument.

TAO11 even force Metaphysical to retract when he made the mistake of contradicting TAO11 on her Orun Oba Ado fallacy calling it stupid and referring to those that believe the crap to be stupid.

TAO11 gave him the matching order and asked him to leave the thread, which he did like a coward.

The only time you see him on his thread now is mostly to support whatever TAO11 says, he dears not come up with his own arguments the way you have just told us Oduduwa was from Mecca.

Unfortunately, the so called brilliant work you said he wrote is now going to die a natural death because TAO11 forbids him from sharing it to a public thread such as this.

It's only the Yorubas that will be sharing the work amongst themselves because it can't be backed up and defended with credible evidence.

2. If Metaphysical share that work, the Benin people around here will just walk all over it, pointing out all the contradictions, lies, illogical logics and baseless claims in it.

3. Unlike Babaramota that sees the work as brilliant, the Benin guys are way too smart to be fooled.

If you think I am lying, I challenged Metaphysical to share such work here.

If Metaphysical is not destroyed by TAO11, he will be destroyed by the Benins and even you Babaramota wouldn't be able to save him.

3. TAO11 believes her version of Yoruba history is the authentic and wouldn't entertain any other version from anyone else, certainly not from her small boy Metaphysical.

So Babaramota, you are on your own on this request.

If you think I am lying or joking, let him share it.

gregyboy:
Another lie

I showed you a beni artwork dating 1300Ad
14century same as yoruba earliest artwork

gregyboy:
Lol, you wan use laff kill me ooh native doctor hahaha

TAO11:
Shut up. Ife is an empire.

Benin is its toilet.

BabaRamota1980:
See how cheap your argument is.

Like a little kiddo.

Ife had always been an Empire. Ife was greater than Oduduwa.

Go and read that guy metaphysical. Read his past contributions in culture section. There was one he spoke about Nok and Ife and Oduduwa and the migrants from Asia Pacific. I cant recall the way he put it but very brilliant. It was the first time Ive seen anyone wrote very intelligently and convincing points about the connection between the epochs of Ife, the aboriginal Ife, the migrant Ife anf the collective Yoruba. I have googled to see if I can get the full information and could not find it...so I knew right there the guy did not lift the information from internet. Very concise.

If I see him I will ask him to please share it again.

Now when I read Attah...it brought back what metaphysical daid anf it makes sense.


Keep this in your mind and revisit when you return at daybreakfrom your midnight meeting.

Ask metaphysical to tell you about Ife and Nok.


God strike your nightbroom into pieces. Bloody witch!


Ive decided to ping him.


Cc
Metaphysical

BabaRamota1980:
Who use people do juju and ritual pass Benin....in all of Nigeria?

Abi because we no dey report your daily diabolical bloodshed in Edo. ....

Your people go sacrificehumans cut out organs cook for your girls to reinforce for their journey to Italo.

No make me open youtube o.


See wetin happen here....
To reverse the blood oaths and curses witchdoctors put on your human trafficking business the Oba had to bring 600yr old juju to place curse.

Can you imaginr! Una dey use curse to reverse curse.

Use witch power to reverse witchery.

We no dey report una bloodhsed and other atrocitoes of witchery thats why you get mouth open to talk of ritual in Yorubaland.

TAO11:
You just knew by yourself that I was wise without I having to say a word about it.

Why do you now see the need to contradict yourself?

BabaRamota1980:
You are just as confused about Benin as you are confuaed about anything else.


Learn to recognise the different epochs of Yoruba and the attachment of social markers to its history of civilization.

Those who pioneered civilization have mythical figures, legendary heroes and historical figures.

Oduduwa features in each.

If we tell historical footprint Oduduwa in Mecca will feature.

If we tell mythical stories Oduduwa the primordial heroe from the sky will feature.

If we tell legendary heroes Oduduwa the conqueror will feature.

We can do this because we are civilized. We possess signatures which is common with all civilized cultures of the world.


If you cannot tell your history in many dimensions as i outlined its because you did not pioneer civilization. You were conquered by foreign civilizers and your epoch of history and evolution is defined by them...not you.

TAO11:
Youre too slow not to see the joke is on you.

Not that I'm surprised about your slowness tho.

BabaRamota1980:
Which one be Yoruba come with another one?

We bring story and back it with facts.

Many people have told you here in culture section that the Oduduwa - Mecca connection is tenable because the pre-Islamic spiritual traditions in Mecca and the belief system of Yorubas are a precise match.


So why the surprise at what I just wrote?

Abi your night activity want activate ni? Se you don get ready to fly above roofs?

BabaRamota1980:
Which one be Yoruba come with another one?

We bring story and back it with facts.

Many people have told you here in culture section that the Oduduwa - Mecca connection is tenable because the pre-Islamic spiritual traditions in Mecca and the belief system of Yorubas are a precise match.


So why the surprise at what I just wrote?

Abi your night activity want activate ni? Se you don get ready to fly above roofs?

BabaRamota1980:
So what if Oduduwa is from Mecca?

Who controlled Mecca before Islam? IFA worshippers....they had over 400 gods in Mecca.

The founder of Islam is a man of Koreish tribe. His clan worshipped Orishas. Thats where the Koreish come from.

Koreish - Ki Orisha

TAO11:
Go away! Coming back for more like a goaat.

You are looking for who will flog you to death.

It's not me that you will put in trouble.

BabaRamota1980:
You should have done so now.
What use are they, beside banishing their ancestors for one reason or another.


Very small enclave and all their historical archives is filled with banishments and anger and witchery.

BabaRamota1980:
So what if Oduduwa is from Mecca?

Who controlled Mecca before Islam? IFA worshippers....they had over 400 gods in Mecca.

The founder of Islam is a man of Koreish tribe. His clan worshipped Orishas. Thats where the Koreish come from.

Koreish - Ki Orisha

TAO11:
How can Yorubas be lost race when you already confided in me that the Edos are the lost race 1 of Africa.


Oduduwa is from Ife --- CRY

TAO11:
Even me I know that this thing I'm doing to you people is not good oo.

A whole Benin Kingdom people!

abi I no who Benin Kingdom be?? ??






oya sorry liars. samuk gregyboy davidnazee ghostwon et al.

TAO11:
I didn't mention anything about being wise. You must have felt my wisdom very strongly to have voiced out what wasn't mentioned.

Any ways, my fathers is Yoruba and I can't be prouder. But guess what ....


You confided in me that you Edos know nothing about your roots. You confessed that you all are lost.


I will mash you!

TAO11:
Answer this question without excuses:

Why do you go to bed every night with fountain of tears

TAO11:
It is about me, not them. I am to tell them who my father is, not them tell me.

They are sane, they know this. They will learn.



unlike you, THICK SKULL.