₦airaland Forum

FOLYKAZE:
This is where I got my own definition. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/religion

This is what your source has to say about religion:

Simple Definition of religion
: the belief in a god or in a group of gods
: an organized system of beliefs, ceremonies, and rules used to worship a god or a group of gods
: an interest, a belief, or an activity that is very important to a person or group
Source: Merriam-Webster's Learner's Dictionary

You just highlightedthe underlined to say that is only what religion means. Ignoring the 1st and the 3rd.

Is Jesus samething as Christianity? Is Mohammad samething as Islam? Is Buddha samething as Buddhism?

A babalawo cannot answer to his Idol because Idol is not a religion [b] but an element worthy of worship of a particular religion.

You 100% agreed with me over here. Oh yeah Idol is not a religion, it's just a [b] graven image. The belief in and worship of it is the religion like you buttressed [subconsciously I think] in the underlined above^^

Take a cow for example, in some religion, you sacrifice it and eat it. In another religion like some Hindu sects, you bow down and worship cow. This act is called goo puja. Does this make cow their religion? Nope. But we can simply call cow worshippers Hindu because they belong to hindi religion which is an institution.

Still the same thing above ^^^

I have never seen a Babalawo that can answer the question "which religion do you belong to" because they dont have one.

They might simply say traditional or native religion but this is not distinct and definate as traditional can be in multiple facet.

Good. They might have a sect they might not. Whether they have a name or not doesn't change anything. I believe you must have heard of Sango worshippers.

There is no religion outside the organised system or institution.

Your source said otherwise. Are they lying as well?

Dictionary distort, sugarcoat and bastardise the meaning fo a word sometimes. For example, some dictionary define atheism as a belief. Some dictionary define God only from Christian and Islamic perspective. So one need to analyse each dictionary meaning before applying it.

Dictionary usually has different connotations for a word. Whenever you are looking for word try as much as possible to read everything it has to offer for it.
Mine has up to 4 connotations for atheism. All still standard. I can snap and send to you if you want.

macof:
do you worship the Nigerian flag?

Me? Hell no!

Reyginus:
You'd be wasting your time if you keep coming cool or pretending they are making sense. Watch how he pulls a new Definition for Religion out of somewhere dark. It's just a Christian saying Christianity is a way of worship buy not a religion.

Hahaha my brother, just trying to follow them step by step chaa..but once it begins to go in circles, that's when I pull out.

At least we have ascertain that Africans worship idols and have cancelled the claim that Africans (those invovled) don't worship it.

FOLYKAZE:
There is the angle you are not seeing it from. There is a personal God but the personality of this god is composed/made up by the founder of the religion. Religion just like every institution has a founder, aim and features. I can not just worship any random thing.

This is why another dictionary define religion as an organized system of beliefs, ceremonies, and rules used to worship a god or a group of gods

I'll like to know that dictionary of yours and know wether that is all it has to say about religion. Look at the images below and relate to them.

On a first thought, your definition have lot of loopholes and lack real substances.

When you are a christian, you are answering to christianity. What religion does a babalawo or dibia answers to?

A dibia/babalawo answers to his idol. The belief in and worship of that his deity is his religion.

I believe once we're able to solve what religion means, then all our problems are solved.
Is Google lying by giving that definition of religion?
Is religion all about an organized institution and anything outside an institution not religious? Or are google and all other dictionary I know of right about their definition??

macof:
mr. im done with you... you have admitted you dont know this very topic we are discussing. so even if Im wrong theres no way i would take lectures from you on a topic you dont know a thing about

Very funny guy
Resorting to ad hominem again #smh
Very funny for someone who claims he argues to learn and teach.

FOLYKAZE:
This can aslo be said for spirituality. The fence is positioned at the point where the sense of supernaturals become organised and institution created out of it.

The problem once again is just seeing religion as an institution or an organized something (like Islam and co.)--while the dictionary (which I believe we're using as an authority) made mention of personal god(s) and someone It isn't only when something is organised that it becomes a religion, just like it isn't only when a crime is organised that it becomes a crime.
We can still go back to the definition of religion.

Is football viewing a religion? I have friends who are devoted to Barcelona. Some are die hard fan of Rolando. Does that make them a religious person?

This definition is incomplete.

It is as complete as it can be. As far as devotion is there, then it becomes a religion. There're lots of sayings to buttress that. Haven't you heard of this statement: Football is our religion ?

There is no clear cut with that definition. So I cant answer you for now.

I believe that I have shown that the definition is quite clear above. Now are dibias/babalawos, who are devoted to their oracle and idols, religious?

macof:
to the first: No!

Hmmm! Okay let's use your second

the second: that is when religion is made out of African elements of spirituality like Isese, but Aborisha/Isese is not about serious devotion in itself, it's about appreciation of nature and self identity
it is from that point that the words "religiosity, religiously etc come from

when you understand the word "religiosity" you might understand all I've been saying as well

Did you actually see where someone is written in that definition or do you just see religion as an organised something (like an organized crime).
This is where our problem actually lies because you don't see an individual as being religious but only some group of people with same belief. Please read those definitions again.

Now to the Aborishas, I don't know whether you also relate it as being similar to babalawos/dibias like FOLYKAZE said, because if you do, and still tell me that they not serious about devotion, then you're being insincere and I don't know where we're heading.
Unless your own definition is different..if it is then state it, if not then we can wave this topic goodbye.

macof:
you don't know something, you know you are ignorant yet you argue about what you don't know...smh. ..is it not craziness? or what do you think?

I doubt you know babalawos or even dibias. ..I'm sure what you think you know is what nollywood and churches tell you

This is what happens when someone sees everything written in the religion section as an argument to be won.

Please defer from using that sort of line because it actually doesn't help..be it in a debate/argument, discussion, meeting, etc.
I have used that, can still use it and I can tell you that ad hominems just leads to a superiority complex, nothing more.

This brings me to what my bible told me. You can NEVER win an argument. How? Let's see:

--Shutting someone up in argument doesn't indicate a win. For where!, the argument actually ended up with each of you feeling even more convinced than ever that you're absolutely right. It's just your mind that gives you the elavated position.

--Convincing someone, to the point of agreeing with you on the subject as well gives a pseudo win.
How can you actually win someone who agrees with you

I am a dibia on my own, doubt at your peril

FOLYKAZE:
Aborisha and Babalawo is almost the same.

They are not religious.

Okay.
What happens to the definition of Google which I quoted before and also that from the dictionary saying that religion means:

▪The belief in and worship of a supernatural controlling power, especially a personal god or gods.
▪ Any practice that someone or some group is seriously devoted to.

Are babalawos/Aborishas not practing that thing above?

FOLYKAZE:
A religion is an institution which tends to bind man and God together by setting out some rule, codes, ethics, tradtion, doctrine and dogmas in an effort to bring man and God closely.

Aborisha are not religious. They are more spiritual but not religious.

Yeah people can come together to form a system of worship and it's called a religious organisation.
See what Google has to say about religion:

re·li·gion
rəˈlijən/
noun
the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.
"ideas about the relationship between science and religion"
synonyms: faith, belief, worship, creed; More
a particular system of faith and worship.
plural noun: religions
"the world's great religions"
a pursuit or interest to which someone ascribes supreme importance.
"consumerism is the new religion"

Which tallies with that of my dictionary:
--The belief in and worship of a supernatural controlling power, especially a personal god or gods.
--Any practice that someone or some group is seriously devoted to.

I don't know who Aborishas are or of their activities. Maybe they are elders of a society or law makers in a kingdom...but I know who babalawos are, called dibias in my region. They and their followers worship idols...Are they religious??

FOLYKAZE:
Adoration simply me deep love, strong admiration, respect and devotion to/for something and someone.

Reverence is deep respect.

How do you show love and respect one without acknowledging the worth of that person? The act of showing love to something is equivalent to acknowledging the worth. When you adore, respect and show much love to someone, you are worshipping it.

Note, I didnt say simply acknowledgment but acknowledgment of worth of something.

And Yes, Africans worship Idols. Just like Christians worship God through Jesus

Coool then we are of the same agreement
Hope macof can read and understand this as well

Though I don't know your stand about religion. Are African idol worshippers religious?

FOLYKAZE:
How do you define worship?

Worship simply is acknowledging the worth of something or someone.

The bible says give to Ceasar what belong to Ceasar and give to God what belongs to God. The bible encourage respect for the authority of the land. If you are giving to Ceasar, you are acknowledging the worth of Ceasar and as well worshipping it.

No no no not just acknowledgement, you can use the terms reverence and adoration to explain it. Worship is much deeper than acknowledgement for the later is simply admitting that this this this is or has this this this.

Now do Africans worship idols?

macof:
you just have your mind set on having your own perception. you are free, not like I can force you out of your ignorance

Very funny guy
Poor defence for a claim anyway.

FOLYKAZE:
Making or carving an image of divines is not a sin as the bible even instructed Isrealites of old to carve two golden statues of cherubim. It ws same God who asked moses to put a carve image of snake which people will look up to. Isnt that idolatry?

Wow are you a Catholic? Those scenarios among other verses never fail me since time immemorial whenever am in support of the idols they worship.
Now let's see:
Well I believe that you are conceptualising sin based on some religious laws, though I didn't talk of sin but I can answer you out rightly that it's not a sin because it was an instruction given to them by their moral giver.
Same with that of moses. The snake in a sense is representing/equals healing. Look at snake and be healed. Don't look, then you won't be healed. Believe that it's god that heals and don't look--then Satan will have mercy on your soul (Means you won't be healed as well).

Are catholics idolaters...YES. What ever idol they mould represents what it's meant for, Not sango or another thing, for they don't mould idols representing sango. And those idols are revered and worshipped and not meant for decoration (You can see them genuflecting, bowing down to among other things in front of those idols).
I still fail to see how those scenarios extricate idols from worship in terms of African spirituality as you would like to term it. And
Since you used the action of the biblical god, can you tell me why he becomes angry if the Isrealites begin to worship other idols?

FOLYKAZE:
An image used to represent an entity attracts the same worth as what it is representing. Just like a national flag is known as a national identity or representation, it is a mere piece of clothing and painting put carries the same respect, worth and value by those who are patriots to a nationality.

A soldier or public servant will salute a national flag. Same way an Aborisha will bow before his artifact. However, that soldier is not serving the flag but what the flag represent. This is the same way Aborisha is not serving artifact but what the artifact represent which are Gods.

I like how you construed this..much better and I know the angle you're going.
Now let's check this. If something is of equal worth with what it represents, it means that the thing is exactly the same thing with the thing it is representing (figuratively speaking) --Lol hope am not singing.

Just like a world cup is worth a particular amount of money (no more, no less)
A Nigerian flag representing Nigerian.
An Aborisha idol worthing the same thing it represents.
The ash of someone's father representing the same man and if it's destroyed, to the person, it will be like killing that his father all over again.
No world cup, then there won't be any money for it.
No mace (which represents authority) in the national assembly, then it's party things.
No Aborisha idol, then whatever it represents is terminated immediately.

All these things can be revered and worshipped vice versa as far as they are of exactly the same worth.
Serving is another thing altogether that is also a choice, and doesn't go with respect/revere/worship.

macof:
ok

People sef

God created the perfect uninhabited earth billions of years ago for the game of chess (a battle ground) to test his strength.
Destroyed it when he was chasing Satan around like Tom and Jerry. Then reconstructed it 6,000 years ago--this time with humans to praise him for his mighty strength in the victory against the agent of darkness Satan.
You can thank me for the summary

---

Christians using any means to justify the many inconsistencies of the bible..making what is already absurd more ridiculous.

macof:
Let's move away from isese and talk about catholicism then

in catholic homes and churches there are images of Mary, Jesus, angels and saints. .. are these images being worshipped when prayers are done in front of them?

Okay Catholics deceive themselves by saying that those idols are not worshipped but used for intercession. They are just using it as an excuse to justify what they are doing-- (was once one of them and can prove anytime any day that they don't worship it..lol )

Imagine some one praying in front of the idol mary today and tomorrow claims that the idol wept and cured him/her...And someone at the back will be saying it isn't worship..that's ridiculous at best

Maybe you can peep into any dictionary you have or Wikipedia and tell me what they say about worship.

macof:
idols are representative objects used for veneration and adornment
an Idol of Sango( Ere Sango) is not worshipped or venerated but used in veneration as a representative Image of the Orisa. it is the Orisa that is venerated not the Ere

Am So confused, If that thing carved or molded is a representative image of Orisa, and that carved thing is neither venerated nor worshipped but used in veneration of that same carved thing (which represents Orisa).. I don't quite follow.

In one scene you're saying its neither worshipped nor venerated
In another scene, you're saying the same thing is used to venerate itself

.

macof:
it's probably only funny because you don't know a thing about the topic you are trying to discuss

Africans don't worship and venerate idols . .. look at the nonsense you just said and you think you know so much about African societies.
it is best to learn before you form an opinion

Hehehe Wow I don't know this will reach this stage, but let's continue chaa.
Now let's be clear on some things.. I believe we know what the term Idol means...

-What do Africans do exactly with idols?
-Do they have idols at all?

macof:
an orisa is a being that is created special
the word has been used to refer to kings, great personalities, great ancestors, lesser Gods ( those beneath the Creator - Olodumare )
veneration doesn't have to be about religiosity my friend. Spirituality in africa is by Awe, not faith
or dogmatic belief that we have in religion

Hmmm so you're really serious with this thing. Lol very very funny. I don't think you know what religion means because if you do you wouldn't have this mindset. How can you say that Africans that worship and venerate idols are not religious??

Wow seems like a nice input. Let me ingest and digest first

JackBizzle:
Also, the time remnant explanation throughout the season was rubbish. You can't just make a copy of yourself by going back in time. A paradox will occur.

The only way a time remnant could occur is if one goes to the past and then immediately go to the present (just before the original time jump to the past)

The concept of time remnant I agree is too vague. I think what they are trying to portray is thus:
When a speedster with time travelling abilities runs at high speed , he can go back few moment ago in time and can create a copy of himself which is called “Time Remnant ”. So due to rupture of timeline , time remnant is preserved by speed force in their timeline avoiding paradoxes . Remember also that when Barry went back in time to save his mother, he also saw the other Barry which can be called a time remnant.

Like Harrison wells from earth 2 said concerning Eobard Thawne's case: "It's possible Eobard was in the Speed Force, protecting him like a bomb shelter, keeping him alive and his timeline intact. It's what's known as a "timeline remnant"."

macof:
I don't like to see African Traditional Religion as Religion at all, people call it religion having western ideas in mind
in Yoruba only recently did people start saying "esin ibile" - native religion
but it's wrong. .. It is Isese or Aborisha - Which is best translated as "Yoruba elements of spirituality" or " veneration of Orisa"
there's no yoruba history or culture without the Orishas, you would be deceiving yourself to say you support yoruba culture but hate isese. ..isese is yoruba culture.
the yoruba elements in question are the Yoruba language, culture, tradition and history revolving around Spirituality. ..that is why in incantations and chants it is Yoruba language...Yoruba words that are so deep, in festivals reenactments of past events are done. festivals are set in accordance with the traditional calendar system. Everything isese is yoruba culture, language, history, tradition

so when next someone says african traditional religion it is really African elements of spirituality which is the culture, language, history and traditions of africa revolving around Spirituality

Hmmm.. What is Orisa exactly? From what you wrote I can deduce that it implies a god since it's venerated.
Now how can you unlink the veneration of Orisa from religiosity?

JackBizzle:
The finale was great but it was really stupid of Barry to go back in time to save his mother, as that would destroy the time line.

Also, the time remnant explanation throughout the season was rubbish. You can't just make a copy of yourself by going back in time. A paradox will occur.

The only way a time remnant could occur is if one goes to the past and then immediately go to the present (just before the original time jump to the past)

Okay a great finale but silly cliffhanger and a rubbish time remnant portrayal. What would you rate the episode in a scale of 1--10?

But if the time remnant was portrayed badly wouldn't it make the finale very crappy as it was centered on that?

@ Jackbizzle and others who have watched the Flash season too episode finale, how did you see the plot? What's your review on that episode?

How about the flash racing back in time to save his mum? (hmmm they better play their cards very well in season 3 cause it seems crappy to me)
What of the Zoom's plan to destroy the earth using the magnetar?--(seems to me like an unintelligent plan for a super villain that can produce time remnants.)

Lastly on the scale of 1-10, what will be your rating?
As for me, 3 for this finale. Season one has a much better cliffhanger and so much fun. Season 2 altogether seems like a copy and paste of season one in a convulated way.
I almost shouted "nawa for nollywood " when watching the episode.

Very funny testimonies up there ..Pastors deceiving the gullible since Genesis

edan15:
The reason why I am not afraid of your Jehovah is because I saw him in my dream and sent a thunderous slap to his left cheek

(make I catch fun small before I die jare

I trust Albert Einstein and the others who died without believing Jehovah as their god. They'll sure find a way to quench hell fire

Young man, how dare you slap the Almighty Jehovah in your dream?? Now prepare to dance Skelewu in hell fire for he is a jelous god.

You should have cried and prophesied like our brethren do when they see him in their dreams, but instead you gave him a thunderous slap...what an audacity!!! [In between, did he cry or shout Jesus when you gave him that slap?? ]

Now better repent of your actions and he might have mercy and just give you a resounding slap back... instead of throwing you in hell for he's also an overbloated loving father-- you have to note that a sin can't go unpunished.
Lmaooo

Codeberg:
www.nairaland.com/attachments/3573119_screenshot20160404224253_jpeg4e3c5164cd2491637cfb3f1592b263f1
I scored over 1M in my game.

And I scored more than you >>

Charpell:
Sent
My apologies for delaying

Alright..Thanks.

AdoptedSon:
uhmmm, KingEbukasblog, Olaadegbu, winner01 come, contribute.

That bolded got me laughing
You can't refute him as usual so you called your masters to deliver you. Hahaha at least try small na