₦airaland Forum

kingthreat:
Go and say that in Saudi Arabia.

That's why it's a medieval society. Who wants to be stuck in the middle ages.

kingthreat:
There's alot of immorality and drug abuse in the land. Sometimes dictatorial moves are required to correct some certain maladies. I got nothing against alcohol.

Morality is not the business of government.

wirinet:
Accept our heart felt condolences. It will make things infinitely more complicated for your wife and family. No one will ever know believe your wife did not kill your mother intentionally. In Africa where even death by car crash death is blamed on the wife, not to talk of as a result of food prepared by her.

Demand a detailed autopsy and toxicology report to ascertain the exact cause of death.

I pray you can heal from this one way or the other.

Oh my, this one will be hard to recover from, and that woman will live with the torture of this for the rest of her days.
She may never hear the last of this.
I wish them fortitude.

wirinet:
Compliment of the season my brother. It's not easy being a man.

Compliments great brother! May you be blessed and protected this year!

wirinet:
Most women care most for the welfare of their children and mother than anyone else.

The child is king, in fact, the child is GOD.

LordReed:
Ok, waiting.

Fingers Crossed, here goes . . .

IMAliyu:
I'm not a materialist but, you make a strawman of even the materialists views.

All biological life are made up of atoms, depending on the structure of said atoms (number of protons, neutrons and electrons) give them specific properties which we call elements, these elements when combined display properties that are entirely different from it's individual components (eg the gases H + O² and you have water). These elements when combined also have emergent properties that are not predictable from their individual components. Specific chemicals in different states or when combined, display self-assembly such as water forming snowflakes (a crystalline structure of the same chemical) or lipids forming from fatty acids and glycerol... A few more steps in this complex set of interactions, make up a biological organism, and a human mind.
So to a materialist, a person is not just atoms, chemicals or cells, but also a complex interactions of a set of natural phenomena. A mind and consciousness is just an emergent property of these natural phenomena interacting in ways yet to be completely understood.

A materialist view doesn't rob a person of individuality and responsibility. So you are making a huge leap from materialism to the non existence of personal responsibility.

On the subject of intentionality, that's a subject that would detract to talking about Natural selection and evolution.

Edit: Oh, sorry I jumped the gun and replied without reading the rest of your conversation with L..reed.

Many thanks for your reasoned contribution, indeed I have quite a bit more to say in terms of elucidation, but the spambot has kept me off this thread for quite a while now. I shall try to re-post and hope it doesnt hit me again.

Ah! His Excellency, President for Life, Field Marshall, Al Hadji Dr. Idi-Amin Dada, Lord of the beasts of the Earth and Fish of the Sea, Conqueror of the British Empire in Africa in General and Uganda in particular, Last King of Scotland, VC, DSO MC, CBE!

Supersymetry:
No difference same way thousands of graduates went on to suffer and die in poverty.

No doubt. It works both ways.
I think the point is, one should not have the "after-all so-and-so person dropped out and still made it" mentality.
People drop out and make it. People drop out and fail.
People graduate and make it. People graduate and fail.

wirinet:
I am looking at the context of university education mainly from the Nigerian perspective. Nigerian University education is geared towards passing exams and not finding solutions to problems.
I studied architecture for 7 years without setting my eyes on any building material. I know people that studied computer science then without actually handling a computer themselves. And yet they come out with first and second class.
In these times of covid, other countries create their own test kits, vaccines and medicines, Nigeria with lots professors, doctors and masters of medicine, micro biology and virology seem helpless and waits for others to give us these these. And this is repeated in all fields of knowledge and research.

I feel sad to know that others are sending telescopes into space to search the origin of the universe and life in other solar systems. We are yet to produce basic electricity to run our homes.

Truth well spoken brother. It is sad.

Perfectbeing:
Bill Gates, Mark Zuckerberg, Steve Jobs (and those two examples you gave) are three college dropouts who famously went on to become billionaires. However, it's important to remember dropout billionaires are the exception, not the rule. For every tech unicorn that wrote a world-changing algorithm in their college dorm room before dropping out and making it big, there are thousands of highly successful people who refined their natural talents at college and say they would not be where they are today without the knowledge and networks built up in university.

. . . . and thousands of dropouts who went on to die in wretched poverty-stricken misery and failure.

wirinet:
Don't get me wrong, I am not saying university education is useless.

Then try not to come across as an extremist. College has its intrinsic value still. Its not just the degree that one takes away. Its a microcosm of the larger world where one gets to hone many non-academic skills. Such as social skills, political skills, etc.

No one would deny the basics of what you say though. Just dont strike such a strident tone that you may be mistaken for spitting on the value of a collage education altogether.

Segilola has been ____________ in Ibadan!

LordReed:
The argument might work against a hard determinist not necessarily a materialist.

It would work for a hard determinist, not against him.

It works against the materialist who insists on personal responsibility because there is a chicken and egg priblem interlaced there which I am not sure you see: the problem as to at what point the agency of a full human is interlineated in the process of development into one - the supposedly mindless process of combinations of chemicals which results in a human mind. This is a subtle point, and perhaps I will have to break it down later.

LordReed:
This also works against your first faulty conclusion in reverse. That a human has agency doesn't sudden imbue his cells with agency.

Just to be clear, that is not my conclusion: I say that it is the ineluctable conclusion you must arrive at based on your faulty premises.

LordReed:
Look up fallacy of composition.

I am quite aware of the fallacy, which I dont believe applies to what I am trying to convey. Some other time, I might be able to convey it better. Cheers.

Edit: Oh, the hell with it. I doubt I can resist this. I will explain in detail what I am trying to convey . . . sometime soon.

LordReed:
There is no rigmarole. You are the one making false conclusions. Material things combining to give rise to mind in no way implies I believe that cells have individual intentionality or that personal responsibility is absolved from the individual. Only you know why you think these things, I have in no way expressed them as my opinion or views.

Perhaps we will have occasion to revisit the implications as I see them: nevertheless even if we put aside the first implication for now, it is very hard to do away with the second implication: because chemicals simply do not have moral agency and it is self-evident that anyone who asserts that all mind arises from matter alone, must equally absolve all persons from personal responsibility; all thoughts and actions being the work of supposed chemical interaction and nothing else.

This is a well established argument against the materialist, and yes, it does emerge from what you say that you are in fact a materialist, materialists do believe in the existence of concepts and ideas as immaterial things - they simply believe that all these are strictly the work or product of material things.

I see that we will not see eye to eye on the issues at play here today, but as I said, perhaps some future occasion may provide a chance to approach the question with a different spin or from a different angle.

LordReed:
Yes material things do combine to give rise to minds.

So you see here is the problem: what then was the purpose of taking me through this rigmarole if you knew this lay at the bottom of your proposition. Because this takes us right back to the implications I pointed out,viz: that you must necessarily imbue cells and neurons with intentionality and that you must also dispense with all precepts of personal responsibility.

You have taken us in a circle, and I am afraid you have been rather unhelpful, and I cannot but wonder why.
Perhaps you are uncertain of what you propose, or you have not properly settled down to consider it carefully and thoroughly.

LordReed:
No, material things do not randomly combine to have minds.

Lets take out the word "randomly" . . .

Do material things combine to form minds.

LordReed:
Continuing with our analogy, the captain has already assumed the possibility of an attack which is why he sent the scouts in the first place. Now that he still hasn't gotten concrete information is he supposed to just believe an attack is eminent or send another sent of scouts?

Relating this to NDEs would be the equivalent of saying where is the corroborating evidence that an afterlife exists even if we say there is a possibility of an afterlife. There are widely divergent NDEs which do not give credence to any objective afterlife experience. Do we simply say we believe in afterlife or do we say we need more information. In my case I have chosen the latter, I need more information. The information at my disposal does not lead me to conclude that an afterlife exists just like the captain cannot conclude that an attack is eminent.

While I have little to say on the specific matter of NDE's, I think its worthy to note that a significant proportion of such experiences do in fact recount some common denominators, such as a tunnel, a bright light, a feeling of floating or weightlessness. It would be unfair to say that these are not widespread common denominators.

LordReed:
You are quite correct. What I have in mind as non-material may not be the spiritual or supernatural the theist or spiritualist thinks of. The things I refer to as non-material are primarily the mind, concepts and ideas.

So may I take it that you believe that material things may randomly combine in such a fashion as to produce minds, concepts and ideas.

NNTR:
How do you mean 'give one, living context and thus potential freedom'?

For example, a conviction that life is a meaningless game may lead one to live wild and free, whilst a conviction that there is some higher purpose set afoot may lead one to cautious circumspection.

With the portmanteau word television formulated from Ancient Greek 'tele' word, meaning 'far off or operating over distance', and the Greek word 'visio' word, meaning 'sight', I would submit that life, this side of eternity, is a reality television set or even goggle-box, displaying visual images with sounds for viewing consumption of both terrestrial and celestial beings

For the first time, you have said something profound.

Saying that life is a social experiment, if to be honest, is a gross overgeneralisation. Living on earth is not a research, especially not for someone that is omniscient. Not for someone who knows the end of everything from the beginning of the thing, even before the thing is formed.

I don't believe that the God which is the ultimate source of all existence was directly or "personally" concerned with the creation of this world. If it was instigated by a being or beings, they probably are lesser beings as well. Hence the imperfect, even decrepit nature of the world. Mankind, given sufficient time, will terra-form planets and create similar experiments as this.

We are on earth with freedom of expression to express ourselves according to our individual nature and have experience(s).

With pre-programmed constraints though.

The thing about experience is, its the hardest kind of teacher. It gives you the test first and the lesson afterward.

Alas.

LordReed:
1. Yes

2. Yes

Thank you, most tempted to end my line of inquiry there, but it strikes one that by non-material, you might mean something entirely different from what I have in mind, or what the theist or spiritualist has in mind. Therefore you will pardon me but I am constrained to ask - what immaterial things do you believe exist - can you give examples and secondly -what is the immaterial aspect of man - is it to be likened to an inward dwelling spirit or do you simply mean for example, thoughts.

LordReed:
Whether you are a Christian or Muslim or Buddhist or atheist, you must walk on ground, breathe air, see the sun and feel breeze. These are basic objective experiences of any human been on the planet regardless of location or subjective experience. What is the equivalent for NDEs?

Perhaps the spiritual can be likened to the land of your dreams at night. Formed entirely by you, and events in your life. If it is true that man is made in the image of God, and God is said to be the creator of all things, it would not be a stretch to see how each human spirit could be the creator of its own unique spiritual reality or spiritual world. It would not be unheard-of to envision such unique spiritual worlds emanating from the spiritual being, and not the other way around.

Please note that the foregoing is only spoken "perhaps" . . .

HardMirror:
life started from synthesis of simple organic compounds.

Till this day, no one knows how. Nor has anyone been able to mix or even electrify "simple organic compounds" and thereby create life. This is a fact.

LordReed:
You made reference to being wild and free, one can be wild and free without pondering the existence of otherworldly beings.

Being wild and free has nothing to do with seeking answers to such questions.

It may. Remember I also qualified by referring to "the man who is interested in the meaning of his life at the level of existential truth." A conviction that life is a meaningless game may lead one to live wild and free, whilst a conviction that there is some higher purpose set afoot may lead one to cautious circumspection.

I personally see the world as a school of consciousness and this informs my approach to many things - especially those things which I believe will be decisive at the crest of the wave.

LordReed:
Methodological naturalist is not strict materialist so there is no equivocation or dodge going on. You jumped to false conclusions about my position simple.

I don't believe I jumped to conclusions, nevertheless, to make things simple, lets assume I did. Now, to help us along with clarity, can you please tell -

1. Do you believe in the existence of non-material things
2. Do you believe that man has a non-material aspect to his being

Many thanks.

LordReed:
First off, I didn't say I was a strict materialist. I said I was a methodological naturalist and I gave a summary of what that meant to me. If you are assuming I am a strict materialist then you are wrong. You'll need reassess your statements in the light of the foregoing.

I am afraid the phrase "methodological naturalist" will not suffice to dodge the exact question as to whether you believe in a non-material aspect to our reality. At first take, the phrase certainly suggests that you are a materialist. It will be unhelpful to equivocate on this.

LordReed:
But you can do that without thinking of some otherworldly audience.

I am not so certain. There is something about arriving at a personal conviction on any given matter which bequeaths a definition to one's trajectory of action that cannot be otherwise summoned. And for the man interested in the meaning of his life at an existential level of truth, nothing but conviction will suffice. This is what gives religion such a magnetic pull for many people.

The true seeker however, can pursue this without the constraints of religion. But not without pondering those eternal questions - What really is out there? What am I? What am I doing here. Why am I here?

And the existence or non-existence of God or gods is intricately tied up with these questions.

LordReed:
If that is the case why do you believe then? Their existence is then irrelevant so what is the point of speculating?

It could give one living context and thus potential freedom.

For example, if one concluded from the pieces of knowledge and experience available to you that this world is say, a reality show for an invisible audience or a social experiment in consciousness and psychology for a science class of extra-terrestrials, one may just abandon all pretenses to conscience and propriety and live wild and free.