₦airaland Forum

OLAADEGBU:
The fact that Elijah appeared to Jesus at the mount of transfiguration invalidates your submission.

Ill like to explain the tranfiguration with you, but first pls , discuss what i said and explain ur understanding of the verses I quoted.
Tell us ur understand of the verse I quoted first. Then we can move to transfiguration .

vooks:
1. The spirit leaves the body

2. Spirit means spirit. A component of man that can survive outside the body and is distinct and unique to each man


3. Yes it is. God breathed it

4. 1 Corinthians 15 is a chapter I recommend. The hope of all Christians is not to merely come back from the dead but to be clothed with spiritual bodies which are immortal, incorruptible and powerful just like the one that Jesus resurrected in. Jesus is called firstborn from among the dead. Why is this yet there are so many that came back from the dead before him? It is he resurrected in a powerful body. All the others resurrected to their old corruptible bodies. And for this, they died again.

1. You are right, the spirit leaves the body.
.
2. I asked : what is the spirit in man?

U answered : Spirit means spirit. A component of man that can survive outside the body and is distinct and unique to each man

Sir, the spirit (ru′ach) energizes and is the life-force that enables man to be an animated creature, to move, walk, be actively alive. (it will be explained further in the footnote later).

In ur reply , pls explain further what u mean by the spirit is distinct and unique to each man.



3. I asked : is the spirit in man different from the spirit in other living creatures eg animals?

U said : Yes it is. God breathed it

I now say, if they are different, why does the bible say they are the same ?
Psalms 104: 30
Ecclesiastes 3:18-22.


4. Sir , if man is spirit, why does he need a spirit body?

Remember our discussion is based on the second resurrection. Are they expecting to be resurrected in spirit bodies too?

Do the spiritual bodies need to be created from dust?

The reason I asked about those that where resurrected by jesus is that there resurrection follows the same pattern as the second resurrection. But this time around, there fleshly bodies will be brought to perfection and like Adam, will not die as long as they follow Gods law.

The following are excerpts from chapter 15 of revelation.

17 Further, if Christ has not been raised up,
your faith is useless; you remain in your sins. 18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in death in union with Christ have perished. 19 If in this life only we have hoped in Christ, we are to be pitied more than anyone.


(these shows man is the body that the spirit/life force activates, and not the spirit that leaves the body, cus the spirit/life force did not fall asleep/die )

23 But eachone in his own proper order: Christ thefirstfruits, afterward those who belong to
the Christ during his presence. 24 Next, the end, when he hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and
power.

(After the first resurrection the end will come. some people will survive that end in the flesh and will not face death at all, hence no need of any form of resurrection. In the new world, there body will be made perfect like Adams was when he was created.)

35 Nevertheless, someone will say: “How are the dead to be raised up? Yes, with what sort of body are they coming?” ............38 but God gives it a body just as it has pleased him, and gives to each of the seeds its own body. ..........
40 And there are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies; but the glory of the heavenly bodies is one sort, and that of the earthly bodies is a different sort. ..........
48 Like the one made of dust, so too are those made of dust; and like the heavenly one, so too are those who are heavenly. + 49 And just as
we have borne the image of the one made of
dust, we will bear also the image of the
heavenly one.+

(the first to be ressurected will have heavenly (spirit) bodies. The ones of the second resurrection will have perfect fleshly bodies.)


To be continued.........

OLAADEGBU:
The third heaven is the dwelling place of God (2 Corinthians 12:2).



Enoch: Genesis 5:24; Hebrews 11:5

Elijah: 2 Kings 2:11

Will you now believe it since God said it?

The following can be deduced from your post.

That elijah and enoch went to the heaven where God is , or where God dwells.

U based ur assumptions on the following scriptures .the scriptures will be quoted and my views expressed.

2 Corinthians 12:2:

King James Bible
I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.

Now this scripture does not say if or that the third heaven is where God resides. That a man is caught up does not mean he is going to the presence or place where God resides.

The word heaven as used in the bible can mean different things and location, to know which one is which, one has to look at the context in which the word heaven is mentioned.
If you are not ok with my explanation , u can make it know with examples and ill reply accordingly.

Genesis 5:24:

King James Bible
And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Enoch walked with God; then he was not there because God took him.

NET Bible
Enoch walked with God, and then he disappeared because God took him away.

Here the verse did not state where God took him, how God took him and it what form God took him .

Hear what paul said about enoch in hebrew 11:5

:By faith E′noch was transferred so as not to see death, and he was nowhere to be found because God had transferred him; for before he was transferred he received the witness that he had pleased God well.

Here again it was not stated where enoch went to , talk less of stating the third heaven .

A better understanding of what might have happened to enoch can be analyzed in verse 13 of Hebrews chapter 11 .
The verse made mention of the summary of what happened to all those who had faith in God, who had been mentioned earlier in the chapter.

King James Bible
These ALL died in faith, NOT having received
the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
These all died in faith without having received the promises, but they saw them from a distance, greeted them, and confessed that they were foreigners and temporary residents on the earth.

International Standard Version
All these people died having faith. They did not receive the things that were promised, yet they saw them in the distant FUTURE and welcomed them, acknowledging that they were strangers
and foreigners on earth.

Here we can deduce some facts
1. All those that paul mentioned(enoch inclusive) died.
2. Enoch did not receive the promise ( meaning enoch did not ascend to heaven ) but saw it in a distant future!

So my own explanation on the scriptures u pasted and the scriptures I added shows what might have happened to enoch and that enoch did not go to heaven .

2 Kings 2:11
King James Bible
And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

By the end of my explanation we will be able to know if elijah did go to the third heavens (Gods dwelling place)


At 2 Kings 2:11, 12 the prophet Elijah is described as “ascending in the windstorm to the heavens.” The heavens here referred to are the
atmospheric heavens in which windstorms occur, not the spiritual heavens of God’s
presence. Elijah did not die at the time of such ascension, but he continued to live for a number of years after his heavenly transportation away from his successor Elisha.
A number of years after his ascension in the windstorm Elijah is still alive and active as a prophet, this time to the king of Judah. Because of the wicked course taken by King Jehoram of Judah, Elijah writes him a letter expressing Jehovah’s condemnation, which is fulfilled shortly thereafter.
2Ch 21:12-15;

Eventually a written message came to him from E·li′jah the prophet, saying: “This is what Jehovah the God of David your forefather says, ‘You have not walked in the ways of your father Je·hosh′a·phat or in the ways of King A′sa of Judah. 13 But you walk in the way of the kings of Israel and cause Judah and the inhabitants of
Jerusalem to commit spiritual prostitution like the prostitution of the house of A′hab, and you even killed your own brothers, the household of your father, who were better than you. 14 Therefore, Jehovah is dealing a great blow to your people, to your sons, to your wives, and to all your possessions. 15 And you will suffer with many sicknesses, including a disease of your
intestines, until your intestines come out
because of the disease, day after day.’”



Nor did Elijah upon death ascend to the spiritual heavens, since Jesus, while on earth, clearly stated that “no man has ascended into heaven (t he dwelling place of God)

Joh 3:13;
.
King James 2000 Bible
And no man has ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man who is in heaven.

American King James Version
And no man has ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

American Standard Version
And no one hath ascended into heaven, but he that descended out of heaven, even the Son of man, who is in heaven.

At Pentecost, Peter likewise said of David that
he “did not ascend to the heavens.” ( Acts 2:34)

King James Bible
For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my righthand,


In reality, there is nothing in the Scriptures to show that a heavenly hope was held out to God’s servants prior to the coming of Christ Jesus. Such hope first appears in Jesus’ expressions to his disciples ( Mt 19:21, 23-28; Lu 12:32; Joh 14:2, 3) and was fully comprehended by them only after Pentecost of 33 C.E.—Ac 1:6-8; 2:1-4, 29-36; Ro 8:16, 17.
The Scriptures show that Christ Jesus was the first one to ascend from earth to the heavens of God’s presence.

1Co 15:20;

King James Bible
But now is Christ risen from the dead, and
become the firstfruits of them that slept.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.

International Standard Version
But at this moment the Messiah stands risen from the dead, the first one offered in the harvest of those who have died.
(this includes enoch And the faithfull ones)

Heb 9:24
King James Bible
For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:


By such ascension and his presentation of his ransom sacrifice there, he ‘opened the way’ for those who would follow.

Those that will go to heaven must bear the image of the heavenly one, Christ Jesus, in order to ascend to the heavens of the spirit plane, for “flesh and blood” cannot inherit that heavenly Kingdom.— 1Co 15:42-50.

So we see, from the bible , the word of God , that elijah or enoch did not ascend to the dwelling place God.

dhope:
it is nt easy to date jw girls. d prob wit d doctrine is dt dey instil d laws of d religion is their mind more than true salvatn of their soul. when i 1st met my fiance who is jw i felt lik leaving her because we quarel almost everytime we discuss bible and christianity. now i thank God her eyes is opening small small and we're still 2gether. if nt for d rules dey impose on dem esp nt reading or hearing frm any other belief,who will still believe in dt rutherford heresy? guys move close to dem and talk to dem for marriage but be sure u too understand what salvatn means and u understand ur bible very well (not their new world translatn dt was composed by their tract society to support their belief). infact i can date any of their C.O if she is single (nt for fornicatn sake) and am nt boasting in myself

People sha!, first, what is C.O?

If anyone believes the op is wrong on his non-belief in trinity. Let him/ she /them make corrections on the questions asked . Stating from question 1.

Pls in answering those questions , endeavor to give ur own explanation on the scriptures quoted in relation to the question.

johnw74:
Hi, I never mentioned trinity which would includes the holy Spirit, I showed from scripture that the Word of God, when He was born to flesh became the Son of God, John 1:1&14 and Luke 1:35.

We know that God who became the Father when Jesus was born is God, and
we know that the Word who became Jesus is God

God became man and dwelt among us.
Joh_1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Php 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

The Word is God, God became the man Jesus.

So are you saying the trinity doctrine is false? Or are you trying to tell us you have ur own form or type of trinity ?

Dnt wanna derail the thread

OLAADEGBU:
Don't expect church tradition to give you the answer to that. Read and study your Bible.

Sir, I'm expecting you to give the answer to the question , u urself that made statements saying that elijah and enoch went to the third heaven . As an intelligent person, I feel you must have biblical facts before you made the statement , therefore I asked
1. What is the third heaven ?
2. What prove do you have that enoch and elijah went to the third heaven .?

[quote author=tola9ja post=29036149][/quote]Well, everybody can now see that you dnt understand ur post, talk less of explaining it

I told you u dnt understand what you posted , that you just saw the book, found the link, liked it cause it accuses other religions , copied it and pasted it.
U responded by saying that you have the book and the link . Sir , how do you reason!.


I went further to explain to you why you dnt understand the stupidity of what u posted. That if u understood it, you wunt have posted it. Also, That in explaining ur post , u only ended in shooting urself in the foot .
Your reply was very interesting as it gives one a better understanding of ur intellectuality .
U said cerebral disorder , that you read ur bible and also copy paste .

Dnt u get it! Its silly to copy paste and not understand what you are pasting , because once asked to explain ur post, ull start blabbing, not being able to give a direct reply.
U have not only shot urself in the foot, but u are still holding on to the gun, looking at the hole in confusion while still putting ur copypaste fingers on the trigger.


If the original manuscript have helped u in ur faith, pls show us the original manuscript so that it can help us too. Or dnt u have it again?

I dnt want to explain the folly of ur post on the prophesy issue, I want you to show me or direct me to a link where any of ur major leaders believe the folly u posted on Islamic prophesy. I dnt want tp discuss something that real Moslems dnt believe in .

vooks:
Resurrection is clothing of disembodied spirits with immortal incorruptible bodies like what Christ resurrected with.
Man is spirit clothed in flesh. At death, his spirit departs from him and the flesh suffers corruption.

When you claim that man ceases to exist at death save for his flesh which also disintegrates, then God would have to RECREATE him afresh on resurrection. He has to RESTORE his memory,mind,will,intellect and all to a NEW body. It means whatever dies that is dolphinheart is not what is rewarded with eternity.

Let me ask you the following questions.

1. What happens to the spirit when man dies ?
2.what is the spirit in man?
3 is the spirit in man different from the spirit in other living creatures eg animals?
4.if resurrection is clothing of disembodied spirits with imortal, incurruptible bodies. Then why did all those that where resurrected by jesus, elijah and the apostles become currupt/ die again ? Or where they not resurrected?
5. If man is spirit, are animals spirit too?
6. If man is a spirit clothed in flesh, and the bible says the spirit that God gave man returns to God in heaven, why did jesus say that no one has ascended to heaven , where God is but him that descended from heaven . ?
7. If man is the spirit, then what is the soul? 8. Which part of jesus went to hell?


Ill like to have ur views on this questions .
Note; when God created Adam, he was created out of dust . Adam already existed as man before the breathe of life came into him, making him to become a living soul.

johnw74:
I wrote in another thread that Jesus is the Son of God, the flesh and blood Jesus is the Son of God.
Luk_1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

But before that He was the Word of God, God Himself.
We cannot understand all things of God until we are changed in the twinkling of an eye. Some things on Earth are not like things in Heaven.
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

On this thread, if you want to prove that the pagan doctrine of trinity is biblical, then answer the questions posted by the op.
Dnt derail, answer from number 1 to last.

johnydon22:
lol.. as if i mention all u will know them all. . . wait a minute why am i even dragging dis wit u or why du fink its impossible to bleep a jehova witness... believe what u want shaa it still doesnt change d fact that i did it... am done with u

Like I said earlier, dnt say in public what you can't prove in public.
U can coat ur reason for refusing to prove ur words with wateva reasons. I was not expecting you to do otherwise anyway.

If its impossible to to sleep with a jehovahs withness, why do they then have committees who look into such cases?
So you are wrong in thinking that I think you can't sleep with a jw.

Dhulqarnain:
Den why do dey find it difficult 2 beat Atletico

When a team pack the bus agaist you, it is always difficult. I never said it will be easy, what I said was that with all the attributes that real madrid now has, and with the way they now play, it will be suicidal to pack the bus against them.
Its not gonna be easy for madrid, but a team that packs the bus agaist them now, reduces its chances of winning the match.
Remember, madrid sabi score goals wella.

vooks:
What will resurrect? Where will they be before they resurrect?

I would have loved to discuss this with you,but as I read ur last posts, i realized you have your own view about what is resurrected and how man is resurrected.

Pls ill like to understand ur view on resurrection and how man is being .

On ur question on what will resurrected and where will they be before being resurrected.

My answer is based on what God called man , he said " from dust you are, and dust you will return "

Man is dust, if he will be resurrected , then he will be resurrected from dust.

Until resurrection , man will remain dust.

johnydon22:
lolzz xo if i mention all this u will believe?

If found to be true , why wunt I believe?

vooks:
The scientific angle is interesting but still it does not answer my question.
Am not concerned about God's ability to reconstruct anything. He made us first so nothing is too hard
The question is whether God's idea of judgment is creating bodies afresh and downloading into them thousands of years old memories and then condemning them! The body that receives punishment is certainly different from the one that sinned. Similarly, the bodies that make it to eternity are completely different from the ones that put their faith in CHrist. None deserves their reward

Sir , Gods idea that you mentioned above is far from my own understanding of the bible and I never mentioned such .

In relation to my first post, I will relate to u my understanding of what happens to man in the future.

When God first created man, he created him out of dust and blew into his nostrils the breathe of life and that man became a living soul.

God gave that man commands which includes how to continue living and what not to do so as not to continue living.
Man did not follow the command, man sinned, and thus could not continue living .
In condeming man to death, God said, "dust you are and to dust you return" .
Adam lost a perfect life.
For Adam offsprings who 1. God knew ir was not there fault that they lost perfection 2. God loved and 3. God wanted them to have an opportunity of gaining evalasting life , he sent his son to redeem us back to him and help us gain back what Adam lost.

So what happens in the future.
In the future there are going to be two resurrections. The first are those who will rule with jesus over mankind for a thousand years .the second ressurection are those who will live, attain perfection, and get to know about jesus and God for that thousand. Years.
After the 1000 years, Satan will be let loose to tempt them for a while, then they will be judged on these.
They will not be judged on there former life, if they are part of the unrighteaous, why? Because the bible said that the wages of sin is death, the price that you pay for sinning is to go to the grave when you die .

One thing we should note is that evalasting life is a gift, if we reject the gift and the conditions it comes with, we will have no life(talk less of purnishment) , if u have no life, you have no memory, senses, thoughts, imagination or aspirations, u simply dnt exist.

[quote author=tola9ja post=29023867][/quote]With your posts, I can now understand who you are .

You see something on the internet, you like it, you post it without first trying to understand what you are trying to post .
You are asked questions on your post and you end up shooting yourself in the foot.

Let me explain ur posts to you .

You posted verses in the scriptures to authenticate the Koran right ? And I asked you how those verses from the bible authenticate the Koran . U said u qouted it just to show that the Koran is different from the bible , how? . Unlike the bible, the Koran does have contradictions, no variations and most importantly (which is the main base of ur post )does not preach violence.

Now let's analyze what you are trying to say.
That the bible encouraged violence unlike the Koran than encouraged peace.
That the bible is adulterated with some words removed and some words added which are not from God.

This prompted me to ask you if the scriptures you quoted are from the authentic (Gods word) part of the bible or if they are the adulterated parts.
If the scriptures are not Gods word, then you are right in ur assumptions that the bible is adulterated.(but u stated otherwise) .
If the scriptures you quoted are not Gods words, then you are wrong in using those adulterated (fake and unreal, added to the bible by bad people later) scriptures in proving that christians or Jews of that time are violent.(u even went far in stating that their God is a violent or wicked God based on the adulterated(not Gods word or directive) parts you quoted.
You can now see the beggining of ur confusion

Now u said that it is authentic, that is those words u quoted are Gods word. With ur understanding of those scriptures, it puts you in a more dillusional position.

1. You claim that Allah is the God of abraham ,the God that helped the isrealites to enter the promised land, hence the God of the original (authentic) bible is also allah. Therefore Allah told them to kill and be violent, kill women and children .
If this is so, and you claim that that God is wicked, then Allah is wicked, abi no be so ? So on a larger scale, if we follow the train of ur assumptions , christians , Moslems and Jews have the same God , and have been told to kill women and children .

2. If the scriptures u quoted are Gods word ,and understood the way u are trying to explain them then the boko haram ,the IS, the taliban, the Al jabaab, the al queda, and most other terrorist have a valid right in perpetuating there violence and killing women and children right? Say that on the streets and see what will happen .

You can now see why I said u dnt understand what u posted . U saw it on the internet and post word for word cus it was intriguing to you . You even attested to the fact that you copied and pasted it .

Before you defend urself by stating that the Koran preach peace , just note that the bible preach more on peace.

Now going further , I asked you to prove that there are genuine prophecies in the Koran, prophecies that have been fufilled, prophesies that are specific and can not be fufilled any other way, prophesies with no scientific theories but facts . You now brought statements that can have a million meaning, that is not direct, mix it up with scientific advancement and call them prophecies. I can't help but laugh.

I will love to scatter this ur prophesies, but I first want to know if ur religious leaders believe what you stated as prophesies. I dnt want u using the author as the source . I want statements attributed to this prophesies from well known Islamic leaders. Leaders who we can goggle their posts in islam .

After u have done that , then we will look at the so-called prophesies.

OLAADEGBU:
Because God said it. The heaven they went is the third heaven.

What is the third heaven ?
Pls also show us bible quotes that said enoch and elijah went to the third heaven ?

tola9ja:
ANOTHER SOURCE
http://www.islam-guide.com/frm-ch1-1-a.htm

Its either you are deliberately trying to change topic and issues on ground based on the fact that you have nothing to back ur assumptions up . Or u just dnt understand what you are posting .

I think you just hear things, see links to them without first understanding what you are about to post .

I asked you , the scriptures u quoted , what are we to gain from them .
U say its to show that the Koran is authentic .

Any sane person hearing ur defence will look at u as someone inserious .

I asked you if the scriptures you posted are the authentic word of God passed to his prophets , u refused to answer me .

I asked you if the so called prophesies you posted have been authenticated by any of ur major religious leaders and scholars that we all know, u are here posting links again .

johnydon22:
how?... with pictures

Where, when , how , who. !

johnydon22:
prove what again.... i just told u i have bleeped two jehova witness girls... so what is in that... why cant i defend it in public.. is there any big deal in bleeping them... last i checked their vay gay aint different... am telling u the truth... I have bleeped 2 before... believe it or not for ur pocket!!!

Prove it!

tola9ja:
did you want me to ask u question or what did mean be specific

Sorry, the statement should have been : *before I continue , I do have one question for you

vooks:
CAPTIVATOR dies in 1000BC.
Judgement is 2070AD
Who/what will God judge?
Your thoughts and anything about you ceased in 1000BC. Does God implant the memories to the FRESHLY created dummy after your image and then judge it? From whence does he restore your memory and thoughts.....?

This is from my own personal observation of the human body .

If God reconstructs ur brain, the synapse, cells, hormones etc, exactly as it nearly was before death , this time removing the cause of death and blowing into its nostril the breath of life, the human will remember and have memory of events.

Why do I say this , memories are collected from our senses in our body , u cannot remember, record, analyse, learn or use any info unless it is being first received by the senses . This is recorded in ur brain and can be altered by science ( to show u that memory is physical) .
Example of physical procedures affecting our beliefs, faith, actions , memories, purpose, thoughts is when a sane man is being made to do things contrary to his nature through drugs and when a crazed fellow is being made sane through drugs and other physical procedures.

So therefore, if ur brain is being reconstructed to be exactly the same it was before you died(with the same cell structure and number of cells), ur memory will come back with you .

The reason the bible says that at death u have no thoughts , dreams ambition and memory is because at the point of death , the force that enables you to activate ur cells (those energy that pass info from cell to cell, which govern ur thoughts) has left ur body .

I stand to be corrected.

johnydon22:
hahahahahaha scared of who... you guys are funny. infact i love toasting them more. i have bleeped 2 of em before..

Dnt say what you can't defend in public.

But if you can defend it........ then prove it !

FrancisTony:
For roman god "Sol Invictus".

We celebrate our own for "Jesus Christ".

Catholics..... Stealing pagan traditions since 15 B.C.E

Conversation between Mr. A and Mr. On christmass celebration.
(Mr. A does not support the celebration while Mr. B does)

Mr. A: jesus was not born on Dec 25th na!.

Mr. B: I'm not disputing that with you,what I'm saying is that jesus our savior was born, the bible said so and we must celebrate the birth of our savior!

Mr. A: but the bible did not say or show us anywhere where jesus, his father,mother, followers , haters, apostles , disciples celebrated his birthday na!

Mr. B: that does not matter, the bible said not all what jesus did was recorded. Moreover there are other oral traditions that we can follow to do the celebration.

Mr. A: so if someone says jesus was married , what will you say?

Mr. B: the bible did not say jesus was married, so jesus did not marry.

Mr. A: *laughs*

Mr. B: why are you laughing, this is not a laughing matter.

Mr. A: I'm sorry, no vex. So what prove do you have to support this celebration ?

Mr b. : the proves are numerous, 1. Jesus was born and the angels celebrated his birth. 2. One isrealite king was exalted by the babylonian king in the bible on the 25th day of the 12th month in the bible and 3. The bible said we can make any day special.

Mr. A: I dnt see anything wrong about rejoicing and celebrating at the birth of a child, more expecially on the birth of our savior. But no mention was made of the angels coming back again to do the rejoicing, they did on the day he was born , and that was final. Moreover the scriptures did make mention of celebrating birthdays as pagan practice, why then do christians practice it too despite the bible telling us we should be wary of pagan customs. On your Jewish king being exalted date. Is that calender the same as we are using now? Cus I can remember Nissan 14 dnt always come up on the 14th . On choosing any date , why was Dec 25th choosing.

Mr. B: the 25th of Dec was choosing cus the pagans where using that date to outshine the Christian religion . So we chose that date to outshine them .

Mr. A: ok let's say you have a right to celebrate the birth of jesus, what about the ceremonies and customs associated with the celebration, like christmass tree, shiny materials around the tree, christmass present, christmass carol, mistletoe, father christmass, christmass star, etc, do they have origin associated with the scriptures?

Mr. B: God owns everything on earth, and his worshipers have the right to use anything to celebrate the birth of his son .

FrancisTony:
-Jesus celebrated and ate with sinners.

-The way sinners celebrate their own shouldn't define mine.

But it just did na!, u urself Said u choose that date to outshine pagans.!

tola9ja:
Before you start reading admit that you will be sincere with what you read and whenever u want to reply you will reply with evidences
Prophecy is foretold news about any future event. In religious world, a prophecy, quite distinct from an educated and wise guess, is considered the most authentic criterion and a vital proof for the truthfulness or otherwise of a prophet. The Bible has also mentioned this test and claims that the prophecies mentioned in it shall be definitely fulfilled.

"I am the Lord; that is my name! I will not give my glory to another or my praise to idols. See, the former things have taken place, and new things I declare; before they spring into being I announce them to you." (Isaiah 42:8-9)

"I am telling you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe that I am He." (John 13:19)


"Some criteria are needed in order to distinguish cases of lucky guesses from those of true prophecy. Let us define a genuine prophecy as one that satisfies the following five criteria:

The prophecy must be clear, and it must contain sufficient detail to make its fulfillment by a wide variety of possible events unlikely.

The event that can fulfill the prophecy must be unusual or unique.

The prophecy must be known to have been made before the event that is supposed to be its fulfillment.

The event foretold must not be of the sort that could be the result of an educated guess.

The event that fulfills the prophecy cannot be staged, or the relevant circumstances manipulated, by those aware of the prophecy in such a way as to intentionally cause the prophecy to be fulfilled."

According to these criteria, we see that the Quranic prophecies, some of which are presented here, prove to be quite genuine and true. No one can ever imagine that an unlettered person living in a nomadic society of Arabia 1400 years ago can predict such amazing scientific events, as mentioned hereunder, to happen. It is very well beyond the human capacity to foretell or even visualize such incredible incidents. The only conceivable source of these prophecies and predictions is purely divine. Interestingly, all such prophecies are fulfilled by those who were not Muslims, rather many of them are atheists. Thus no question of staging the prophecy and manipulating the circumstances arises.
FINGER PRINTS

"Their skins will bear witness against them as to what they have been doing" (41:21)

The finger prints system at borders, criminal investigation cells and immigration centres prove the fulfillment of this Quranic prophecy.
POLLUTION

"Corruption has spread on land and sea because of what mens hands have wrought" (30:42)

One of the interpretations of the above verse of the Holy Quran is the environmental pollution, caused by human being. And that is spread both in land and sea due to our own inventions, i.e., fumes from chimneys of factories, chemical and nuclear waste, huge traffic in the cities, noise and creation of ozone hole are manifest testimonies of the fulfillment of this prophecy.
ESTABLISHMENT OF ISRAEL

And after him We said to the Children of Israel, 'Dwell Ye in the promised land; and when the time of the promise of the Latter Days come, We shall bring you together out of various people." (17:105)

Creation of Israel and gathering of Sephardic, Ashkenazi and the Jews of many other different races in Israel proves the authenticity of this prophecy and hence Quran.
GENETIC ENGINEERING

"They will alter Allah's creation." (4:120)

The holy Quran has prophesied the plastic surgery, genetic engineering and cloning in this short and concise sentence.
ROADS IN MOUNTAINS

"And when the mountains are made to move." (81:4)

Centuries before the invention of dynamite, the holy Quran prophesied the blowing up and moving of the mountains.
NEW TRANSPORT SYSTEMS

"And when the she-camels, ten months pregnant are abandoned." (81:5)

"And He has created horses and mules and asses that you may ride them, and as a source of beauty. And He will create what you do not yet know." (16:9)

As we know people, specially those living in deserts, have now abandoned camels and other animals for travelling. But this prophecy of invention and emergence of new transport systems is on-going as we witness new and faster modes of transportation emerging all the time.
ZOO

"And when the wild beasts are gathered together." (81:6)

Nobody could ever imagine that one day wild beasts shall be captured, tamed and put together in closed and open parks. The establishment of zoo have fulfilled this prophecy.
OCCEANS LINKED

"And when the rivers are made to flow into each other." (81:7)

"He has made the two bodies of water flow. They will one day meet. Between them there is a barrier; they cannot encroach one upon the other." (55:20,21)

"And He it is Who shall merge the two seas together. This palatable and sweet, that saltish and bitter. And between them He has (presently) placed a barrier and a massive partition." (25:54)

This phenomenal prophecy is an excellent proof of truthfulness of Quran. It was beyond imagination of any one living 1400 years ago to even think of linking of oceans which we see today in Panama and Suez canals.
MODERN COMMUNICATION SYSTEMS

"And when various people are brought together." 81:8

Fast transport systems, telephone, satellite systems and internet have brought so close to each other proving the truthfulness of the holy Quran.
WOMENS RIGHTS

"And when the female-infant buried alive is questioned about For what crime was she killed." (81-9,10)

Modern-day women rights and liberation associations may be brain-child of freedom-loving and egalitarian humanist / feminist people but foretold by Quran centuries ago.
BOOKS PUBLISHED AND SPREAD

"And when books are spread abroad." (81: 11)

The invention of printing press and publication houses and consequently spread of books every where is one of the marvellous prophecies of the Quran made in the dark ages of ignorance and illiteracy.
EXTRA-TERRESTRIAL LIFE

"And among His signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth, and of whatever living creatures He has spread forth in both. And He has the power to gather them together whenever He pleases." (42: 30)

Having discourse with aliens is still an unrealized dream, but science is progressing in that direction. The presence of extra-terrestrial life has been proved by scientists. The next step is to see them and making a link with them. No religious scripture, except Quran, even hints about this great scientific discovery.
AIR TRAFFIC SYSTEM

"And by the heaven full of tracks" 51 : 8

While prophesying about modern transport systems, Quran also foretold the air-traffic system which is an essential part of aviation. A person living in desert 1400 years ago cannot talk about such advance technologies unless revealed to him by God Almighty

I thought u guys have been told to linking technological advancements with koranic passages as basis for belief in prophecies in the Koran.
I'm still thinking if I should take time and trash the nonsense u posted, cus ur moslem alfa brought a book containing this same fake assumptions and we trashed it out with him eventualy agreeing that he does not fully surpport the fake assumptions stated in the book .

Before I continue, do you have one question: do you have a source, statement ,post, attributed to any of ur main religious leaders in Nigeria or anywhere in the world that support the thrash u posted?

tola9ja:
dont let me stress you jesus is lord give me the evidence
and can your lord be beaten and flog?

U think you can avoid or side step my statements and most expecially my questions by refusing to quote them . I just dey laugh .

I can see you dnt even understand urself , talk less of understanding ur religion or other peoples religion . You are lost in ur own concept and explanations .

If u really wanna explain urself , pls answer my questions and reply my statements as numbered.
And most expecialy , answer my question on prophesies .

Pls I'm not trying to detail the thread , but part of what the op said caught my attention

So can these question be added to the growing list of questions:
How do we know elijah and enoch went to heaven . And which heaven are you referring to . ?

Concise, direct, simple, truthful, self explanatory.

All I can say is" thank you" .

tola9ja:
As to Christians and there ways in relatin to Muslims who follow the quran


BUT THERE MANY VERSE THAT SUPPORT KILLING

LUKE 19-27King James Version (KJV)


But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me. .

Matthew 10:34-35King James Version (KJV)

34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.


CAN YOU FOLLOW THAT HOW I WISH AM BESIDE YOU

HE TRIED.

Ye shall not eat of any thing that dieth of itself: thou shalt give it unto the stranger that is in thy gates, that he may eat it; or thou mayest sell it unto an alien: for thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk
.

JESUS IS LORD SO THE LORD IS beaten and slapped, flogged,.
GOOD SERVANT OF GOD

YES COS HE WORSHIP GOD HE IS NOT GOD SO YOU TO WORSHIP GOD AND HE NEVER GOTO CHURCH STOP GOING TO CHURCH .

https://www.nairaland.com/1930985/quran-bible-which-these-scriptures

Now I BELIEVE YOU WILL DO A LOT OF RESEARCH TO SEE THE ONLY ONE WAY TO PARADISE

1. I can see u here trying and failing to prove christians kill or are told to kill , u have failed! .


2. Another failed attempted to merge jesus Christ ways with ur ways .
Do you understand the parable u took those words from ? I can bet u dnt. U just took out the words verbatim without understanding what it was saying .
Did jesus kill anyone while he was on earth? Did he order the killing of anyone while he was on earth ?
Did jesus rule any cities while he was on earth?
Is the scripture u quoted authentic or not?

3. I said jesus preached peace without condition attached and u went to quite scriptures where jesus was explaining a situation .

Can u explain to us what u understand by those scriptures?
Do you think that the words jesus said, which u claim is from God , is meant to divide families? If u believe those scriptures to refer to jesus bringing peace with conditions then explain how jesus causes confusion for extended families?


4. Get serious , did jesus preach it or not?

5. He tried? When, where , how. ?

6 . I said Jesus preached love and u went talking about food and dead animals , what's the correlation . I'm beggining to worry o!

7. Yes, Jesus is lord and he was beaten, spit upon , slapped and flogged! , do u have any problem with that!

8. Good that you agreed that anyone doing those things that jesus did not do is not a good servant of God . Dnt follow bad servants.

9. U said he worshiped God, them u should endeavor to follow his was by trying to always beg God to forgive ur oppressors. Bros, u say we should worship God , christians try to worship God by following scripture (Gods word) commandment on how to worship God , which includes always gathering together when we have the opportunity to worship him. (apart from our constant private worship) .
What do you understand by the word CHURCH?

10.do you understand my statement at all? ??


BROS!!!!
WHY DID U CLEVERLY EVADE/REMOVE/ SIDESTEP THE PROPHESY ISSUE? !!

tola9ja:
THERE ARE SOME PART IN THE BIBLE THAT ARE WORDS OF GOD BUT SOME ARE WORDS OF MAN UNLIKE THE QURAN FROM THE 1ST PAGE TO THE LAST PAGE CONTAIN WORD OF GOD I USE THE GOOD PART OF THE BIBLE TO PROOF IT TO YOU THAT QURAN IS THE ONLY GENUINE WORD OF GOD

The scriptures says all of it is writing by Gods inspiration.
If u dnt understand that statement, it will be hard for u to understand the bible and how it was writing .
Ur expectation and belief as to my Gods word and how he used humans to pen it down is different from mine.


Abeg can u guys bring out all the good part of the bible, make a collection of it and tell the whole world " this is the authentic scriptures o, we have removed the adulterated ones!"

This is better than you guys picking verses that you think explains ur religion .

By the way let me ask , the verses that was quoted at the beggining of this thread , are they authentic or adulterated? Pls endeavor to answer o!