₦airaland Forum

An explananation on 1ti 3:16 continued.....


6. The Internal Evidence

a. The Greek Grammar
The internal evidence also reveals the truth of
the matter. First, the passage does not say "in the flesh" with a definite article but simply "in flesh." The word eusebias translated as "godliness" is difficult to translate into English
with a word that exacts the Greek intention.
The word "godliness" is a justified translation
of the word and it is about as good as we can
do with the selection of English words we have available. However, it does tend to over translate the Greek scope of the word. This is a common problem when translating from one
language to another. The Greek word does not precisely mean what the English word "godly" tends to convey but it means something like reverent piety in a worshipful sense. The Greek words for "God" and "godliness" which are theos and eusebias are not related word cognates as they are in English. This can also tend to be misleading to English readers who might errantly conclude the word "godliness" in this passage is intended to correlate with the word "God".
However, in Greek the word eusebias and theos do not bear that correlation. Also, there were also no sentence ending periods in the Greek text. If the word "which" is the proper rendering, the passage actually says in the Greek, "great is the mystery of godliness which was manifested in flesh, justified in spirit..." However, if the word "God" is used we have an abrubt break in the flow of the sentence, "great is the mystery of godliness.
God was manifest in flesh, justified in spirit..." The rendering which uses the word "who" or "which" is much smoother and natural. Not only so, it is typical Pauline style to compose run-on sentences.

b. The Immediate Context and Pauline
Thought
And there is yet more. Paul here is talking about the mystery. In 2 Timothy he says, "God who saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works but according to his own purpose and the grace which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages of time (2 Tim 1:8-9). This is nearly identical to what he says in Romans, "Now to him who is able to strengthen you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery of the times of the ages which was
kept hidden" (Rom 16:25). And in Ephesians
he says, "having made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure which he purposed in himself for the economy of the fullness of the times to head up all things in Christ, the things in the heavens and the things on the earth" (Eph 1:9-10) and "to enlighten all as to the communion of the mystery which has been hidden from the ages who created all things in Christ Jesus" (3:9) and "this is a great
mystery but I speak of Christ and the church" (5:32). Paul desires "to make known the mystery of the gospel" (6:19) which is he
also calls "the mystery of
Christ" (Colossians 4:3). The mystery of the
ages is Christ himself revealed to us by God.
He tells us in Colossians, "the glory of this
mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of
glory" (Col 1:27; see 1 Cor 1:30; 2:7). God's
mystery appeared in flesh and Christ is that
fleshly manifestation of His mystery.


To be continued......

johnw74:
The Greek word written for God in that verse is:
"theos", it means "a diety, especially the supreme Divinity".

KJV 1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Many modern translations say "God".

An explanation on 1ti 3:16

The Trinitarian Claim
Trinitarians claim this verse identifies Jesus
as "God" because it says "God was
manifested in the flesh."

Examination of the Evidence
Modern translations do not read, "God" at 1
Timothy 3:16. Trinitarians make this particular claim by quoting mostly or only from the King
James Version reading of this verse. Despite
the fact that scholars agree that the KJV reading is a certain corruption, Trinitarians, even those who normally do not read the KJV, continue to cherry-pick this verse from the KJV.

When the Christological controversies were
occurring in the fourth century, we do not see
even one solitary person making a reference to the "God was manifested in the flesh" version of this verse as evidence for identifying Jesus as "God." This fact does itself undeniably demonstrate it was unknown to them. If indeed 1 Timothy 3:16 really said "God was manifest in the flesh," we can most definitely be sure this passage would have most been brought forward as "Exhibit A." Yet, not one soul mentions it even though this passage more than any other would have supported the teaching that the incarnate Christ was "God." But the facts remain as they are and it was never mentioned once in the myriads of documentation that exist
illustrating what was argued in these debates.
There is a good reason that no one in the fourth century church ever mentioned the passage. The word "God" did not appear in 1 Timothy 3:16 until much later. It first appeared in manuscripts after Trinitarian dogma was developed and canonized and is an obvious later alteration. The oldest and best manuscripts do not have the word "God" (theos) in 1 Timothy 3:16 which is why modern Bible translations do not have the word "God" at 1 Timothy 3:16 either.

1. Contemporary Trinitarian Translation
Scholars.
Now because this verse is known to be a scribal error, contemporary Trinitarian Greek scholars, who have access to numerous manuscripts, have not been able to perpetuate this error any longer into English translations, despite the passions of some who desire the word "God" to appear in this verse at the expense of truth. Let us look at some of the major translations of this
passage and note how Trinitarian Greek scholars themselves acknowledged the scribal error:
"He appeared in a body" (NIV)
"He who was manifested in the flesh" (ASV)
"He who was revealed in the flesh" (NASB)
"He was manifested in the flesh" (RSV)
"Which was manifested in the flesh" (Douey-
Rheims)
"Who was manifested in the flesh" (NAB)"
Quite plainly, Trinitarian translation scholars are admitting this version of the verse is not
authentic. One then wonders why Trinitarians so often continue to appeal to it.

2. Ho, Hos & Theos
If we entertain all possibilities, the remote and the more certain, there are actually three
possibilities in this text: ho ("which", hos ("who", and "theos ("God/deity". The first two are attested in early manuscripts. Thus one must look elsewhere to find which one is the one Paul originally wrote.

3. One Small Pen Stroke
We actually have a pretty likely idea how this
corruption happened. Scribal copyists routinely used a contracted form of the Greek word for "God" called a "nomina sacra" that was used at a very early date in Christian history for sacred names(a wrong move by those who wanted to hide the Name of jehovah). The Greek word for "God" is theos written in the Greek alphabet as qeoV, or QEOS(the Greek signs cannot be pasted hereto fully explain what this section is trying to tell us) . The copyist abbreviations correspondingly took the form qV, or QS, with
an faint overscore line stroke over the
abbreviation. These strokes would often become quite faint in the copies.
Now the Greek word for "who" is the word hos which is written in Greek as oV, or OS.
Now notice the similarity between these two
words QS, and OS, and also remember they were written by hand and would not be written
so perfectly and distinctly as the typed letters
on this page. With the exception of one penstroke, the Omicron (O) and Theta (Q) are nearly identical. It would be very easy to make a mistake here when copying from one manuscript to another and if that is what happened then it would be excusable. But it
would also be very easy for an overzealous
scribe to suppose he was doing God a favor and execute a forgery here by changing the manuscript and the handwritten O (Omicron)
into a Q (Theta) with a stroke of his pen and
thereby completely change the meaning of the verse. It would be also easy to change the word ho to theos by adding a stroke and an "s." And it would be far more difficult to do it the other way around without getting caught (removing the stroke). There is also evidence that ink may have bled through the other side of the media and made it appear to a copyist to read QS because the bleeding ink added what appeared to be a line where OS had been written. Whether or not it was an honest copying mistake or a forgery, it is very likely that the error was produced in this manner.

(to be continued.....)

Can someone answer my questions pls

All these old days story being revealed and no one has answered my question up till now?

An2elect2:
Yes i believe and know that Jesus is God. You have to be completely blind to not believe Jesus is the Almighty God. Some people doubt this because what the only see is the humanity of Christ and if there is any work of Deity attached to His ministry it is ascribed to someone who is God. Do they know that they are denying God. What were the expecting God to look like when He willed to come to this fallen world to save mankind. To save the man, you come like the man. Men were made with blood in them and blood was required for the remission of our sins. Do you expect God to come as the Spirit He is? How will His work on earth be feasible? Before Abraham, before David there was Christ. If this was an ordinary man there was no way he would have preexisted. Only God can claim that.

If you fail to see that Jesus' deity was clouded by the flesh He had on Him, then you are without knowledge of the true God.

When it comes to debating Jesus deity i will readily stand with the trinitarians though am not one than stand with bold-faced liars who deny explicit scripture. Damn! this is so clear but this people rather turn a blind eye and hold on to scriptures that "seem to say" what they want to believe.

1)what/who is a God.?
2)who is God almighty?
3)who sent jesus and anointed him ?
4)does jesus not have a God?
5)who is jehovah?

And the dam just got busted , but I believe the scriptures will help close it up.

1)First , is jesus the father?
2)Who is the father ?
3)What is the relationship between jesus and the father?

If you want to quote My posts , pls make sure u explain the bible verse I quoted o. As I will endeavor to explain urs if you quote any.

Everyone falling except the camera man videoing everyone falling!
Nice one!

@ubenedictus , still waiting for answers to my question o!

Anas09:
Jesus died and on the third day he was quickened resurrected back to life. With a body which enabled him to eat and drink together with his Apostles twice before he was taken up to heaven with that same body, he will come back to rapture the earth with that same body and will later reign for a thousand yrs, with that same body. Everyone who dies befor den shall resurrect with a new body that shall not die again, those of us who. Will be alive shall be changed, a new body shall also be given to us. Dats why whereever u find urself, u shall spend eternty there, weda in hell or with Christ. All is eternal life, it just depends where you spend it.

Are u saying the that jesus, the one you say is the almighty God, the one u say is equal to God, is in heaven with the same physical body he walked the earth with ?

Are you saying that flesh and blood can enter heaven?

Ur last statements butress satans statement to eve when he said "u will not die". And me and you know what jesus called the devil .

Eternal life is a gift . Not a certainty.

Anas09:
The approved Bible for the JW is New Word Translation. These verses of the scriptures are ommitted there; Matt 18vs 11, Matt, 17 vs 21, Matt 23 vs 14, Mk 9 vs44, Mk. 11vs26, LK 23 vs 17. Acts 24 vs 7, these r all missing ommitted. Can someone explain it to Us? That Bible refers to Jesus as a god, in John 1ves 1 and refers to Jesus as angel. Wen God himself called immanuel the ALMIGHTY GOD. In. Isa 9 vs 6. Only those who will not search the scriptures for themselves will be decieved.

The omission of those verses or words has been explained to you . Furthermore most of the translations that add those verses to their translations either put those those words in bracket or explain in the footnote that they themself do not fully believe such words where there in the original scriptures. Have u read the footnotes in the bible u claim to be the accurate one?

Ur quote on Isaiah 9 vs 6 is one of the false doctrine that you are propagating that they are fighting against . Stop twisting the scriptures.

The words "almighty God" does not exist in Isaiah 9 vs 6 in ur bible. If does then prove me a liar. If it does not , then u owe urself and others reading ur posts the responsibility of retracing ur steps and really showing them that only those who will not search the scriptures for themselves will be decieved!

Anas09:
Watch out for one common factor amongst the groups operAting under the Spirit of the anti-christ. They don't have a problem with the concept of God, their problem is the CHRIST. All of them. Some are out right, in their rejection of the divinty of Christ but some are very subtle, like the JW. You have to have a revelation of Christ via the Word for you to catch them. Those guys are very Good. I came to the brink of joining them yrs ago, but I discovered there was something they r fighting against wen it came to Christ and the Holy spirit. I went into more study, then flushed them out. Satan can not accept who christ is, check all the rpoints raised, they all revolve around Christ. Who ever fights these points fights Christ, and Christianity is all abt Christ.

They don't have problems as to who the messiah,the anointed one, jesus , the son of the living God is .
They reject ur false view on the divinity of jesus and accept the true theocratic view on the position of jesus in relation to us humans and to jehovah.
The bible is there for us as a guide in discussing these issues.
They are fighting against false, paganistic and satanic doctrines that has crept into Christianity.

This is not a political debate but a discussion that should be based on the bible. If you have issues with their understanding of the bible , then let's raise the issues up and let us discuss it using the bible as our guide .
So ill be waiting for ur first biblical issue .

And pls when u raise them, back it up with biblical reasons why I believe or do not believe the issues raised .

Ubenedictus:
the present roman-gregorian calender actually measures time accurately even though not perfectly.
The date was previously derived from the hebrew calender, these dates were later matched to the roman calender and thus became fixed.

Haba sir, accurately but not perfectly ? That statement needs explanation o!

If the date was derived from the hebrew calender, then what's the date on the hebrew calender that it was derived from . Pls, pls , pls tell us that date! .

100Cents:
Very good.

I don't know how in depth you are in JW, but explain these few things to me.

1. Do you believe that Jesus is God( One of the trinity ) ?

2. Do you believe he died for the sins of the world and rose again ?

3. Do you believe Jesus is the Son of God ?

These are the basis of Christianity..

If you really want to know , visit www.jw.org
U'll get all the answers u need

truthman2012:
But why is islam full of deception? The OP gives the impresion that he is a Christian by his username ''paulGrundy''. Blatant Liars.

The op is an impersonato.r , he is a nija guy who dey wish say he be oyinbo .

That's y he post picture of an innocent young boy , claiming he's his son .

MzNelly:
Take the risk.

Take wetin!, if somtin happen now, even ur back lights will become invisible .

MzNelly:
Dangerous?

He truly has the heart of a dolphin.

Yep, dangerous. Like going for a blind date at 12 midnite!

MzNelly:
OmolodMilkman93, dolphinheart, Hiswordxray, Honourhim, Rikoduosenin, they're calling you

With which medium o ! , me single but me no do , me dnt do this kain intro , dangerous.

If its true he said it, then let him be the first to start the killings. He should lead by example!

Well.......jesus said that in the last days there will be miracles and powerful works .
....



















Performed by those he will reject!

Can someone give me more info on the Dec 25th date!

What calender was being used when jesus was born?
What's the date of Christ birth on that calender?
What calender do we use now?
Is there ever a perfect calender?

italo:
I have not bothered to make more findings about his post. For now it seems the accuracy of what he is saying is too difficult to determine.

The reason i havent bothered is that it really doesnt matter much whether he was born on 25th Dec or 24th Dec. What matters is that Jesus was born and we celebrate his birth every 25th Dec.

Do you agree with the bold?

I do agree with u on this statements.

Ill wait on further discussion on the issue until you have bothered to make ur findings on what the op said to know if its true or false

MrPresident1:
1. God is eternally invisible, Jesus is his physical manifestation because all the powers and attributes of God have been invested in Him. So Jesus is the image of the invisible God. Colossians 1:15, Colossians 2:9. By investing all the power of the Godhead in Jesus Christ, Jesus is God.

2. Yes. the Word in John 1:1 is the Holy spirit. The Holy spirit is the Word of God. Jesus Christ is the Word of God. Revelations 9:13

3. What is a God? expatiate please.

4. Who the Almighty God is? Job 11:7, 1 Timothy 1:17. This question has ramifications beyond the scope of the highest levels of human comprehension. Fearing the Almighty God, therefore, is your entire duty.

1)a) who/ what invested the power in jesus

b)when was it invested

c)what of the "personification" part .

d) how does the father come into this personification issue

2a) revelation 9:13 says : And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God.
Please how does this verse relate to the holy spirit or jesus being the word of God.?


b)john 1:14 says : And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the
Father,) full of grace and truth.

How and when did the holy spirit become flesh?

c)if jesus , holy spirit and father are God and are equal , can the father said to be the the word of God too? If yes ,how ,if no ,why.


3. Since the bible mentions many Gods/gods) and says there are many Gods/gods), I assume that the word God/god is not a name of one personality but a title .therefore what does that title God mean?

4a) I'm asking, is the almighty God is a spirit person, or a group of persons?

b)in quoting job 11: 1,7 are u alligning ur discussion with that of zophar who jehovah eventually told the words at Job 42:7-9 because of the things he said to Job?

c)Timothy 1:17.: Now unto the King eternal, immortal,
invisible, the only wise God, be honour
and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Who is this one wise god? .

d)Is this same wise God the same God that jesus was reffering to in john 17: 1-3?that he said we should know and worship ?

[quote author=italo post=29486820][/quote]Ok, you dnt believe that the date is accurate.

You dnt believe that the date is not accurate.


You believe I do not have prove that jesus was not born on Dec 25th

Do you believe that the op does not have prove that jesus was born on Dec 25th ?

italo:
i neither believe nor disbelieve that the date is accurate.

i believe that you do not have proof that Jesus wasnt born on 25th december.

So u re sitting on the fence on this one right . ?
U neither believe the op or those who are against his assertions right?

italo:
I will...when you advise your watchtower society to stop propagating lies and false prophesies from satan.

you believe the Dec 25th date is accurate right? Pls on what calender(s) was this date derived from,and what calender are we using presently to measure that date?. remembering that not all calenders are the same and none is accurate in relation to time and earth movement and none is constant as to dates in relation to the each other .


Humans cannot accurately measure time.
Definitely dates change in the real sense of it.
If you have a reply to this, pls do add the answer to the questions

MrPresident1:
Happy new year to you my Chief.

I think I have an insight into the Trinity doctrine, lemme share with you;

God is eternally invisible
Deuteronomy 4:12
And the LORD spake unto you out of the midst of the fire: ye heard the voice of the words, but saw no similitude; only ye heard a voice.
1 Timothy 1:17
17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Jesus Christ is the image and personification of God
Colossians 1:15
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Collosians 2:9
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
John 10:30
30 I and my Father are one.

The Holy spirit
John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 6:63
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

The constant inter-phasing of our spirit with the Holy spirit (the Word, Bible) is what makes our spirit holy.

Finally, all these three are one;
1 John 5:7
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Questions sir.
1).Pls can you elaborate on the statement "jesus is the image and personification of God"?

2.)is the "word" in john 1:1 the holy spirit ?

3) what is a God?
4) who is the almighty God?

Ubenedictus:
the book i quoted actually says that sherpherds keep watch on sheeps in bethlehem throughout the year, he called them the migdal eder "the tower of flocks" not just before the passover.

Answer the questions I asked on the book you quoted sir

Ubenedictus:
you objection no 1 is spurious, it is a logical fallacy called arguement from silience, you simply can't simply dismiss other sources becos you say it isn't recorded in the bible, infact the bible never claimed to contain everything about the life of Christ.

Your no 2 is simply incredible, totally lacking in any sort of convincing power, so 25th is simply wrong because it is "controversial". Sorry dear, tell me another story, which day is not controvesial, all d days in the calender were named in remembrance of one pagan gods all d other, are we simply going to say Jesus was never born because all dates are controversial?

Your no 3 is also interesting because, the summer is not good for travels because isreal is a dry place with much dust, the spring is not good either because that is when farmers plant their fields, you can't tell people to leave their source of sustenance and go for census, again the fall is not suitable because that is the time for harvest, nobody will leave their fields at harvest. That brings us back to winter when there isn't much agriculture and the weather isn't too harsh.


Lastly i'll like you to provide the bible verse that says Jesus lived exactly 33yrs 6month, if u can't then your no 4 is non sequiter.

Sir, I'm not trying to convince you or anyone here not to believe in Dec 25, only stated the reasons y I dnt follow that date .

1.my statement is not spurious, I just stated a fact . O did not say it is not recorded in the bible cus of my view, but said so cus it is so! .
Ur discussion should have been on if that fact is true or false. Up to this point,it is true that all the 27 books of the new testament bible never mentioned anything about this Dec 25th date. The whole bible never mentioned the birthday party of any servant of God or the Son of god . If I'm wrong on this, pls let me know.
Weddings he attended where mentioned
Parties he went to where mentioned
Religious festivals where mentioned
Other pagan birthday celebration where mentioned
Important dates like the day he died where mentioned
But his birth date, and any other birthday celebrations where not mentioned I'm the over 33 times it came up.

As the chinco will say "somtin Wong"


2. Sir, jesus was born , but you and I dnt know the date, days are not what I said is controversial , it is choosing a date for the celebration of jesus birth that is controversial. That days are named after pagan Gods does not mean one who records such days is worshiping them or marking religious events associated with such Gods. Dnt misplace naming of days and dates .
There is controversy about the date of jesus birth In thousands of websites
There is controversy about the reason for choice of the date in thousands of books
There is controversy on the celebrations on that date among thousands of religious leaders.
The is controversy on how to celebrate the date among thousands of thousands of christians .
So sir, I'm correct to say the date is controversial .


3. Isreal is not dry and dusty ,it is a land where people plant and what they plant grow well, a land flowing with milk and honey.(will add pictures to show u places between Nazareth and Bethlehem to prove my point .
The order for the census was world wide , at least in the areas of roman rule, which was quite vast. So it is unlikely to tell everyone to travel during the cold winter period worldwide . Imagine ordering people to leave and walk or ride horse for hundreds of kilometers in cold windy snow cus of registration . Even the horse u go use sef go run leave u if u mention such a thing to am .

Not everyone traveling is a farmer .
A) farmers at that time dnt travel, they stay in their lands to farm and live there .it is very very very hard to find a man from Bethlehem or galilee farming in Nazareth. so most farmers farm in their homelands that they got through inheritance.
B) farmers dnt work I'm the farm all summer, or spring , after planting they rest at home .
C) even if farmers need to travell ,they can hire local labourers which are plentiful to take care of things.

4. I did not say jesus lived "exactly for 33 and half years" . I said he lived 33 and half years " . ill give you prove if you can say that " jesus did not live for 33 and a half years.

Added.
5. I dnt believe in Christmass cus the date is constant . Unlike Nissan 14.

6. I dnt believe in Dec 25th cus no one has told me which date that dat day falls on in the hebrew calender .

7. I dnt follow the Dec 25th analogy cus, Nissan 14 , a date mentioned in the bible , do change every year in our modern calender, how come Dec 25th is constant?

Moreover, if jesus mother, jesus and his disciples where to celebrate jesus birthday , which date on the hebrew calender does it fall upon since you have the oral traditional in which the date was mentioned with you.

8. If jesus where to be celebrating his birth now, which calender would he use, the calender of his own people or the one of the people that oppress them ?


I wish we dnt defend the indefensible cus of personal interests

italo:
The Catholic Encyclopedia is not a publication of the Catholic Church...no matter how hard you try to make it so.

So grow up.

Selective reply

Ubenedictus:
bethlehem had the migdal eder, the sherperds of bethlehem were responsible for providing sheeps for the temple, they move all year round.



"That the Messiah was to be born in Bethlehem, was a settled conviction. Equally so was the belief, that He was to be revealed
from Migdal Eder, the 'tower of the flock.'
This Migdal Eder was not the watchtower for the ordinary flocks which pastured on the barren sheepground beyond Bethlehem, but lay close to the town, on the road to Jerusalem. A passage in the Mishnah [Shek. vii. 4.] leads to the conclusion, that the flocks, which pastured there, were destined for Temple-sacrifices, and, accordingly, that the shepherds, who watched over them, were not ordinary shepherds. . .The same Mishnic passage also leads us to infer, that
these flocks lay out all the year round, since they are spoken of as in the fields thirty days before the Passover — that is, in the month
of February, when in Palestine the average rainfall is nearly greatest."

(Alfred Edersheim, The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah, Book II, Chapter VI, Kindle location 3994).

For those who don't know alfred is a jew.

Ok o, I don here, like I said before, I dnt use the issue of shepherds being out in the field as a bases for not believing in the Dec 25th date.

My basis for not believing in Dec 25th are as follows .

1. The bible never mentioned such a date in relation to jesus birth.

2. Choosing that date is extremely controversial .

3. The reason for jesus parents travelling from Nazareth to Bethlehem (very long distance)was for the census. I dnt think its likely for ceaser to command the isrealites to move around during the winter period, not to talk of during the middle of winter.

4. Jesus lived 33 years and half years, if he died on Nissan 14 , easter period which is always around match/April , Then his birth date would not have been in Dec, talk less of the end of Dec .

5. The book u quoted from brings some questions forward .
A. What month is the Passover?.
B. Was jesus born 30 days to the Passover cus the shepherds would be in the field during that period?

All my points can be verified using the bible

Emusan:
Not that you don't understand those scriptures but you misrepresented their meaning.

You said and I quote "scriptures explain scripture" yet you overlook the scripture where Jesus was called EVERLASTING LIFE after you said in No 5 that "Jesus owes his life to this(his) God , He
pointed to God as the Source of his life.

How can EVERLASTING LIFE be created?

I quoted Phil 2:8 to counter your No 4 and I also expounded John 1:3 further to counter your No 6 and to show you that Jesus was never created yet you believed I never addressed any of your points.

Finally, I asked a logic question to address the issue of FIRSTBORN your respond was that "Logic can't explain scripture" whereas in your copy and paste article the writer applied logic too "Logically, it was to this firstborn Son that
Jehovah said:..." so can you see the harm copy and paste can cause in the life of someone who failed to read Bible on his/her own?

Let me ask the question again which one came first Jesus or heaven?
*if Jesus, where does He live after He was created before heaven was created? BECAUSE EVERY LIVING CREATION NEED A DWELLING PLACE.
*if it is heaven, then Jesus can't be the FIRSTBORN of all creation.

It's either you misrepresent the TERM FIRSTBORN or scripture is lying. I know you can't go with the latter.

Sir, one more time ill tell you I dnt do scatter scatter discussion, in ur case the scriptures might counter scriptures based on ur understanding, but in mine it explains it .

Let's not argue , if you feel I'm wrong in my understanding or representation of the scriptures,or in my statements, first number them, quote what I said , quote the scripture I used to explain myself, then quote ur understanding of that scripture that I quoted before you add other scriptures or statements or questions to explain ur view.
That is how I have handled the points I have issues with on this thread . I first explain my understanding of the scripture quoted and use it to explain my view .
Again if you feel I dnt understand a quoted scripture, first explain what you understand on that scripture , before u add anything else .