₦airaland Forum

Emusan:
I don't need to create any thread that's why I'm sending you to them.



So scriptures explain scripture the one that I quoted are they not scriptures?

You agree scriptures explain scripture but what do you have to say on John 1:1?
You used KJV, ASV, NLV, NIV in your previous post, so tell me if you're not a JWs do you agree with these translations in rendering of John 1:1?

Sir, I no get capacity to do scatter scatter discussion ,or finding fault in personality discussion. If you feel that I dnt understand the scriptures I quoted in relation to the topic under discussion. Go to its number, state ur view there in relation to the topic and the scriptures quoted there? .
If you want to discuss any organization , contact the organization or create a thread for it.
If you want to discuss bible translations, contact the translators or create a thread for it.

OLAADEGBU:
What's the point of winning an argument when I know that your soul needs to be saved?

Sir, I'm not arguing with you , I'm asking you questions which you have so far refused to answer. No one wins when it comes to Gods word, everybody gains knowledge .

Horus:
And your bible talk about snow when he was born?

Give us the name of the chapter

Below is the first picture that you posted

Now right click with your mouse on your own picture and when the white window open just left click with your mouse on search Google for this image. Now you have as a result the original image of Shepherds in Iran

Shepherds moving their sheeps, between Khoy and Pasak-e Sofla, north-western Iran (picture Date january 2008 )

Source: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Shepherds_iran.jpg

www.nairaland.com/attachments/1985602_shepherdsiran_jpeg13c7a83102f80e39ccac60140e840ab9

Ok Bro,thanks for d info, thought that was somfin Wong with the pic . Was right when I said the shepherds where moving the sheep for a reason .
Though I dnt support the idea of using the shepherds being in the field as a major basis for believing jesus was not born in Dec .

italo:
Sorry, I thought I was conversing with a human being that thinks, not a computer virus.

Yeah ! Yeah! , attack the personality when.......

italo:
What relevance do these questions have?

The bible says shepherds were watching their sheep.

It didn't mention "tending" or "feeding" or "grass" ...and I have shown you shepherds watching their flocks in fields in winters colder than that of Israel.

What else are you fighting for?

Sir, the questions are relevant .
I want to know the location of pandanaram so as to comfirm if its in isreal like u said and also know its climate during Dec period.

On the pic issue , we dnt know where that picture is taking yet
Personaly to me, I see shepherds moving sheeps, and I believe they are being moved for a reason not explained by the pics.
The pic ill like to see is shepherds sitting or standing together in the open at night in December in isreal with sheeps looking at both the shepherds and the camera like " are you humans nuts! "

Bidam:
You argue like a jw even quoting their translation slyly. Emusan was actually exposing where you got your ideas and doctrines from and it is definitely not the bible. Are you not one of them?

Maybe this is a new method of changing the discussion.
I quoted the scriptures, now the argument is on a particular translation.
I explained what I understood about the scriptures I quoted , you have now shifted it to the source of my beliefs.

Sir , if you feel that there is something wrong with the scriptures I quoted, number it, state it with ur own explanation using different translations .we use the scriptures to explain the scriptures to understand what the scriptures is saying

Iaz93:
Mehnnnnn!

Shey this Milan people don end our streak.... chei!

Dem no end anything, it was just a friendly match,

Emusan:
If not all but most Christian including JWs believe that Jesus pre-existed His birth and at the same time came down to earth but what JWs failed to put into consideration about this amazing truth is that they couldn't distinguish His Pre-existence life from His humanity.

JWs believe that Jehovah transferred the LIFE of Arch-Angel Michael into the womb of Mary BUT no JWs have ever asked what happen to the body of Michael after its LIFE left its body?

The very actual fact that distinguished Jesus' pre-existence life from that of His humanity is that The Word voluntarily humble Himself to enter TIME and SPACE, so Jesus didn't come to earth to act as God BUT to take on human flesh as a sacrifice.



Phil 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. KJV
Jesus first humble Himself before He could reclaimed that POSITION He left.



This is another twisted of the scripture, how do you understand this scriptures then?
2That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have observed and our hands have felt, concerning the word of life,+ 2 (yes, [size=14pt]the life was made manifest, and we have seen and are bearing witness+ and reporting to you the everlasting life+ that was with the Father and was made manifest to us),"[/size] 1 John 1:1-2 NWT

No Christian can deny these verses by attributing them to The Father, the question is if Jesus WAS called THE EVERLASTING LIFE (which is about His pre-incarnation) THAT WAS WITH THE FATHER, how can everlasting LIFE be created?



The 1st underlined word never appeared in any place within the Greek scriptures but as you can see instead of using this verse to prove yourself wrong but you blindly concealed the lies.

@2nd underlined-Let me add NWT so that it will complete "All things came into existence through him,+ and apart from him not even one thing came into existence. [size=14pt]What has come into existence."[/size]

Now if simple English wasn't your problem you suppose to spot the lies of JWs here because if apart from him(Jesus Christ) NOT EVEN ONE thing came into existence WHAT HAS COME INTO EXISTENCE.....then how can Jesus be created?

JWs claimed Jesus was created (which means Jesus came into existence ONE day) and John 1:3 says WHAT HAS COME INTO EXISTENCE (Which must include Jesus if He was actually created)...then it means Jesus is the one who created Himself.

The last logic question which came first Heaven or Jesus? Let me make it clear
*If it is heaven then Jesus is not the firstborn of the creation.
*If it is Jesus then Jesus must have lived in eternity before heaven was created and we know that only God lives in eternity.



Jehovah is the source of life BUT Jesus is the LIFE Itself, did Jehovah create His own life?



If not because you've lost your power of reasoning to blindfolded teaching you would've spot the logic truth of Jesus being God in this your illustration.
How? You said and I quote "...Before Colossians 1:15, the expression “the firstborn of” occurs upwards of 30 times in the Bible, and in each instance that it is applied to living creatures the same meaning applies— [size=14pt]the firstborn is part of the group..."[/size]

@bold-Now if the FIRSTBORN IS PART OF THE GROUP, so which GROUP did Jesus' FIRSTBORN belong to? Remember only Jehovah existed at that time.



What the scriptures say is that it is wisdom that is talking here and Jesus is the Wisdom of God, how can God create His own wisdom?

Sir, if u have issues with JWs, create a thread for it and state ur issues. Or send a letter to them expressing ur views .

If you have problems with the NWT, create a thread for it or contact the authors.

My post was a reply to someone else and not you , though I dnt mind u contributing to it . My points where made with numberings and with selected scriptures to back my points up.(scriptures explains scripture , not logic explains scriptures )
If you feel I'm wrong , go to the numbering , state ur view there , explain ur view but dnt neglect the scriptures I posted.
I dnt do scatter scatter discussion.

italo:
I guess the pics above show that shepherds could easily tend their sheep in fields in winter.

The place you went to, was it as cold as you see in the pics?

Sir, u did not answer my questions
To add to it,
4) where and when where this pictures taken
5)what are the shepherds doing here. tending sheep in the field? Wey the grass?

ROSSIKE:
Flesh and blood cannot reside in heaven. It is your spirit body that makes it to heaven, not your physical body. Reproduction is a function of a physical body.

Having a baby takes nine months in a humans physical body . What will happen to the baby if jesus comes during those nine months .

Since people will be in different stated of pregnany during the time jesus comes, what will happen to their baby?

italo:
^^^



How can we believe this story of yours which begins with an obvious lie in bold...and which has the lie as its anchor?

"When a problem arose between Jacob and Esau, Rebekah convinced Isaac to send Jacob to Padamaram for awhile.
"And Isaac sent away Jacob: and he went to Padanaram unto Laban, son of Bethuel
the Syrian, the brother of Rebekah, Jacob's and Esau's mother." (Gn 28: 5)
Jacob stayed there for twenty years tending Laban's cattle. When he left he had an argument with Laban, his father-in-law, to whom he said:
"38 This twenty years have I been with thee; thy ewes and thy she goats have
not cast their young, and the rams of thy flock have I not eaten. 39 That which was
torn of beasts I brought not unto thee; I bare the loss of it; of my hand didst thou
require it, whether stolen by day, or stolen by night. 40 Thus I was; in the day the
drought consumed me, and the frost by night; and my sleep departed from mine eyes."
( Gn 31: 38- 40 )

The bold above is proof that shepherds can stay in the fields with the sheep on cold winter nights in Israel.

And the part of Israel talked about above is colder than Bethlehem where Christ was born.

Questions
1.where is padanaram in isreal?what's their present climatic condition.
2. What's the distance from Bethlehem.
3 . Did the scriptures state that Jacob "was in the field" during this time.

Bros , I been go one country near that area this same period sometime ago,Bro it was cold both indoors and outdoors (despite modern building structure, unlike jacobs time. And we should note, Kevin no get duvee o ). I was even praying to see the heat and mosquito of naija as soon as possible

OLAADEGBU:
Where is Elijah now? That will give you a clue to the answer to your question.

Like always, twisting and changing direction when you can answer or explain .
Tell us what u understand by all the scriptures I quoted if u believe they went to heaven with their physical bodies

Continued


7. Jesus is not almighty cus he does not know everything .

He told the mother of zebedee that he does not know who will sit at his right hand or at his left .
He told his disciples that he does not know when the conclusion of the system of things will come.

John 6:44,45: No man can come to me unless the Father, who sent me, draws him, and I will resurrect him on the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by
Jehovah.’ Everyone who has listened to the Father and has learned comes to me.

8. No one has seen the almighty God, the father.

“No man has seen God at any time;the only-begotten god who is in the bosom position with the Father is the one that has explained him.”— Joh 1:18; 1Jo 4:12.
(note: jesus was in the bossom position , not equal position)



With all these said ,Now let's look at ur statement attributing jesus to the title of alpha and omega. In ur desperate bid to do this , u quoted verse 16 before verse 13, thank God the scriptures was not written in that format. This only shows ur desperate aim in twisting the bible to show ur false belief.

Now let me tell u the truth

While you apply this title both to God and to Christ, a more careful examination of its use restricts its application to Jehovah God.

The first verse of Revelation shows that the revelation was given originally by God and through Jesus Christ, hence the one speaking (through an angelic representative) at times is God himself, and at other times it is Christ Jesus.
( Re 22: Thus Revelation 1:8 (RS) says: “‘I
am the Alpha and the Omega,’ says the Lord
God [“Jehovah God,” NW], who is and who
was and who is to come, the Almighty.”
Although the preceding verse speaks of Christ Jesus, it is clear that in verse 8 the application of the title is to “the Almighty” God(it has been proven to you numerous times that jesus is a God , but not the almighty God) . In this regard Barnes’ Notes on the New Testament (1974) observes: “It cannot be absolutely certain that the writer meant to refer to the Lord Jesus specifically here . . .
There is no real incongruity in supposing, also, that the writer here meant to refer to God as such.”
The title occurs again at Revelation 21:6, and the following verse identifies the speaker by saying: “Anyone conquering will inherit these things, and I shall be his God and he will be my son.” Inasmuch as Jesus referred to those who are joint heirs with him in his Kingdom as “brothers,” not “sons,” the speaker must be Jesus’ heavenly Father, Jehovah God.— Mt 25:40; compare Heb 2:10-12.
The final occurrence of the title is at Revelation 22:13, which states: “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.” It is evident that a number of persons are represented as speaking in this chapter of Revelation; verses 8 and 9 show that the angel spoke to John, verse 16 obviously applies to Jesus, the first part of verse 17 is credited to “the spirit and the bride,” and the one speaking in the latter part of verse 20 is manifestly John
himself. “The Alpha and the Omega” of verses 12-15, therefore, may properly be identified as the same one who bears the title in the other two occurrences:

John 14:28, RS: “[Jesus said:] If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I.”

1 Cor. 11:3, RS: “I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a woman is her husband, and the head of Christ is
God.” (Clearly, then, Christ is not God, and God is of superior rank to Christ. It should be noted that this was written about 55 C.E., some 22 years after Jesus returned to heaven. So the truth here stated applies to the relationship
between God and Christ in heaven.)

1 Cor. 15:27, 28 RS: “‘God has put all things in subjection under his [Jesus’] feet.’ But when it says, ‘All things are put in subjection under him,’ it is plain that he is excepted who put all things under him. When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things under him, that God may be everything to every one.”
The Hebrew word Shad·dai′ and the Greek word Pan·to·kra′tor are both translated “Almighty.” Both original- language words are repeatedly applied to Jehovah, the Father. ( Ex. 6:3; Rev.
19:6) Neither expression is ever applied to either the Son or the holy spirit.
Jesus is not the alpha and omega



In conclusion I leave you with this scriptures

John 17:3:
King James Bible
And this is life eternal, that they might
know thee the only true God, and Jesus
Christ, whom thou hast sent.

That one true God is the father/jehovah.

And Psalm 144:15 :
“Happy is the people whose God is Jehovah!

We worship what we know.”,we worship our only true God jehovah ( John 4:22, RS) Do you really know the God you worship?

dolphinheart:
(to be continued shortly )

4. In terms of rank, it has been explained to you the post of jesus in relation to the father.

1 Cor. 8:5, 6, RS: “Although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth —as indeed there are many ‘gods’ and many ‘lords’—yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.”
Paul statements presents the Father as the
“one God” of Christians and as being in a class distinct from Jesus Christ.

Ps. 110:1: “The utterance of Jehovah to my [David’s] Lord is: ‘Sit at my right hand until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.’” (At Matthew 22:41-45, Jesus explained that he himself was David’s “Lord,” referred to in this psalm. So Jesus is not Jehovah but is the one to whom Jehovah’s words were here directed.)

Phil. 2:9-11: “For this very reason also God exalted him [Jesus Christ] to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name, so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground, and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.


5) . Jesus owes his life to this(his) God , He
pointed to God as the Source of his life.

Joh 6:56, 57: “I live because of the Father.”
According to the context, this meant that his
life resulted from or was caused by his Father, even as the gaining of life by dying men would result from their faith in Jesus’ ransom sacrifice.

6.) In ur desperate move to use creation as the basis for calling jesus almighty God, u forgot to explain why the father was included in the explanation on how and why we are created . Here is a true understanding of the topic:

The firstborn spirit Son was used by his Father in the creation of all other things.

Joh 1:3; New International Version
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
New Living Translation
God created everything through him, and nothing was created except through him.
English Standard Version
All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.
New American Standard Bible
All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.(cor 1:16, 17 )

Logically, it was to this firstborn Son that Jehovah said: “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness.” ( Ge 1:26) All these other created things were not only created “through him” but also “for him,” as God’s Firstborn and the “heir of all things.”— Col 1:16; Heb 1:2.

Jesus is not a co-Creator. The Son’s share in the
creative works, however, did not make him a
co-Creator with his Father. The power for creation came from God through his holy
spirit, or active force. ( Ge 1:2; Ps 33:6) And
since Jehovah is the Source of all life, all animate creation, visible and invisible, owes
its life to him. ( Ps 36:9) Rather than a co-
Creator, then, the Son was the agent or
instrumentality through whom Jehovah, the
Creator, worked. Jesus himself credited God
with the creation, as do all the Scriptures.(Mt 19:4-6)

Jesus was the firstborn of all creation

Col. 1:15,: “He [Jesus Christ] is the image of the invisible God, the first- born of all creation;
In what sense is Jesus Christ “the first- born of all creation”? (1) Trinitarians say that “first-born” here means prime, most excellent, most distinguished; thus Christ would be understood to be, not part of creation, but the most
distinguished in relation to those who were created. If that is so, and if the Trinity doctrine is true, why are the Father and the holy spirit not also said to be the firstborn of all creation? But the Bible applies this expression only to the Son. According to the customary meaning of “firstborn,” it indicates that Jesus is the eldest in Jehovah’s family of sons. (2) Before Colossians 1:15, the expression “the firstborn of” occurs upwards of 30 times in the Bible, and in each instance that it is applied to living
creatures the same meaning applies— the firstborn is part of the group. “The firstborn of Israel” is one of the sons of Israel; “the firstborn of Pharaoh” is one of Pharaoh’s family; “the firstborn of beast” are themselves animals. What, then, causes some to ascribe a different meaning to it at Colossians 1:15? Is it Bible usage or is it a belief to which they already hold and for which they seek proof?

Jesus is shown to be a created being, part
of the creation produced by God.

Proverbs 8 :22(this verse is ascribed to jesus ):
New International Version
"The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old;(that is why he is the first born of all creation )
New Living Translation
"The LORD formed me from the eginning, before he created anything else.
(he was created by God/jehovah/father)

Proverbs 8 :23:
New International Version
I was formed long ages ago, at the very beginning, when the world came to be.
New Living Translation
I was appointed in ages past, at the very first, before the earth began.
English Standard Version
Ages ago I was set up, at the first, before the beginning of the earth.

(jesus was appointed to watheva position he has by his God, the father.)

Proverbs 8:25 :
New International Version
before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth,
New Living Translation
Before the mountains were formed, before
the hills, I was born--
English Standard Version
Before the mountains had been shaped, before the hills, I was brought forth,
New American Standard Bible
"Before the mountains were settled, Before the hills I was brought forth;
King James Bible
Before the mountains were settled, before
the hills was I brought forth:

(jesus was created)

Proverbs 8:30:
New International Version
Then I was constantly at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence,
New Living Translation
I was the architect at his side. I was his constant delight, rejoicing always in his presence.
English Standard Version
then I was beside him, like a master workman, and I was daily his delight, rejoicing before him always,
New American Standard Bible
Then I was beside Him, as a master workman; And I was daily His delight, Rejoicing always before Him,
King James Bible
Then I was by him, as one brought up with
him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing
always before him;
Holman Christian Standard Bible
I was a skilled craftsman beside Him. I was His delight every day, always rejoicing before Him.
International Standard Version
Then I was with him, his master craftsman— I was his delight daily, continuously rejoicing in his presence,
(jesus was the one who jehovah used in creating everything, his worksman)

(To be continued shortly)

[quote author=OLAADEGBU post=29321206][/quote]Sir , I dnt know ur view on Christianity because people like you have twisted the concept of being a Christian so much that a lot of people do not really understand what it means to follow jesus. I try my best to follow jesus way of life and teachings , teaching that you have so twisted that you dnt even understand it again talk less of explaining it. That is why u use phrases like "its a mystery", "the meaning of God/man , using words that dnt exist in the bible and desperately but not unitedly finding other meanings to words that are plain and straight forward in the bible. I'm not a cultist as all my beliefs and ways are all open for all the world to see and I prove my beliefs from the bible.

It is you that has limited reasoning cus your case is like a man that is about to be sweept aways by the flood of truth but desperately holding on to one branch (scripture) that he thinks is his life saver.

Unlike you, people you have been disccusing with do not twist and turn like you do whenever u find a scripture hard to explain or when u can't answer simple questions , they use the scriptures to explain the scriptures . They have been cutting away the falsehood u believe in from the begginning by first explaining to u the true meaning of the scriptures u urself quoted using the bible , and then using other scriptures to butress their points .
So far u have not been able jto do that, you twist and turn and change direction of discussion when you know that you can't explain further, and then u try to repeatedly post ur debunked explanations hoping that if you post it several times, the falsehood might turn to truth. Well sir, that only works in politics .

in this thread, the followings have been explained to you about jesus, who he is and his relationship to the father. all you have done so far is to run away from the truth like a jet fighter trying to escape a missile, spewing falsehoods thinking the missile will miss its way .

1.) It has been explained to you that jesus is distinct from the father(jehovah), they are two seperate personalities .

Toward the end of his life, Jesus said: “I am leaving the world and am going my way to
the Father.” ( John 16:28)
After his death in the flesh and resurrection as a spirit, Christ ascended “into heaven itself, now to appear before the person of God. Hebrews 9:24.
Therefore jesus is not that God that he appeared before. that God is the father, the one true God.


2. You have been told that jesus has a God and that he himself (jesus) said it .

John 20:17: Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father;
and to my God, and your God.

Revelation 3:12: Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.


1 Pet. 1:3: Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,



3. These same God is the one jesus prays to, worships, listens to, and make requests to , doing his will. This God is the one that gave jesus all the authority he has.

John 17: 1-3:1. Jesus spoke these things, and raising his eyes to heaven, he said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify your son so that your
son may glorify you, 2. just as you have given him authority over all flesh, so that he may give everlasting life to all those whom you have given to him.3. This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ.

Other bible translations render verse 3 thus :
New Living Translation
And this is the way to have eternal life--to know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, the one you sent to earth


“All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth,”.( Mt 28:18)

Heb 1:9: Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God,
hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. (jesus has a God, jesus had fellows,almighty God does not have fellows , it was his God that anointed him, making him the Christ (anointed one).

Jesus’ Father has “left nothing that is not subject to him [Jesus],” with the evident exception of “the one who subjected all things to him,” that is, Jehovah, the Sovereign God. ( 1Co 15:27; Heb 1:1-14; 2:

Matt. 4:10: “Jesus said to him: ‘Go away, Satan! For it is written, “It is Jehovah [“the Lord,” KJ and others] your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.”’” (Jesus was obviously not saying that he himself was to be worshiped.)

John 8:54: “Jesus answered [the Jews]: ‘If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father that glorifies me, he who you say is your God.’” (The Hebrew Scriptures clearly identify Jehovah as the God that the Jews professed to worship. Jesus said, not that he himself was Jehovah, but that Jehovah was his Father. Jesus here made it very clear that he and his Father were distinct individuals.

(to be continued shortly )

The dream team

Equado:
Lol....many unanswered questions!

Yet , the answers are in the scriptures

OLAADEGBU:
What was my last response to your objections?

Like I said before, ill say it again , because the scriptures does not contradict itself and because scripture explain scripture, I quoted and explained all the scriptures u quoted to back up ur view on elijah and enoch being in heaven . I went on to explain to you that you were wrong using both the scriptures u quoted and additional ones from the bible .

If you feel that elijah and enoch went to heaven, then explain to us ur view on the additional scriptures I quoted by quoting it and explaining what it means , and the questions I asked.

dolphinheart:
Sir, I can now see why some say they dnt Iike or want to discuss with you, as you dnt discuss with people but tend to dish out ur own opinion without explaining/looking into on what the other person says. When u post ur beliefs and back them up with with bible statements, others look at what you said in relation to the scriptures you quoted and come back to explain to you their understanding of what you said, the scriptures u quoted, and also add other scriptures to prove to you that ur understanding is wrong.
That is exactly what I did, I looked up the scriptures u posted, explained where u where wrong , then added other scriptures to buttress my point . But u dnt do that , you wave/ dismiss / put aside/refuse to explain ur understanding of scriptural evidence shown to you that you dnt like or can't explain and hold on tightly to verses that you think explain ur point.
This method does not encourage discussion.

I gave you numerous evidences and scriptures and u did not explain any.

Ill try one more time to explain to you from the scriptures , citing the scriptures u quoted and more from me to explain to you that enoch and elijah did not go to heaven .
Pls if you want to argue my points, pls explain first of all ur understanding of the scriptures i sited .


Enoch did not go to heaven.
To start my explanation , let's first look at the definition of this two words that might have caused some confusion. The definition of the words helps in the understand of what the scripture is saying.

Death: the act of dying; the end of life; the total and permanent cessation of all the vital functions of an organism.
(death is being described as an act, a process. Unless otherwise assisted, that process is always very unpleasant, mostly painful)

Die/ died: to cease to live; undergo the complete and permanent cessation of all vital functions; become dead.

(die/died is the end result of the process of death)

So now what did not happen to enoch.

Genesis 5:24:
King James Bible
And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
Enoch walked with God; then he was not there because God took him.
NET Bible
Enoch walked with God, and then he disappeared because God took him away.

Here the verse did not state where God
took him, how God took him and it what
form God took him .so I wonder why you use that verse to say God took him to heaven .

Why was he taken away?.

The book of genesis indicate that the corruption introduced by Satan in the garden of Eden quickly led to the spread of wickedness among Adam’s descendants. In such a world, Enoch was a prophet of Jehovah whose powerful inspired words resonate even today. ( Jude 14, 15) we can be sure that even in Enoch’s day, there were many “ungodly sinners” who heard Enoch’s prophecy with annoyance. How loving that God took the prophet out of their reach

What happened to him?
heb 11:5
:By faith E′noch was transferred so as not to see death, and he was nowhere to be found because God had transferred him; for before he was transferred he received the witness that he had pleased God well.

Like in the book of genesis, Here again it was not stated where enoch went to , talk less of stating the third heaven .

A better understanding of what might
have happened to enoch can be analyzed in verse 13 of Hebrews chapter 11 . The verse made mention of the summary of what happened to all those who had faith in God, who had been mentioned earlier in the chapter.

King James Bible
These ALL died in faith, NOT having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
These all died in faith without having received the promises, but they saw them from a distance, greeted them, and confessed that they were foreigners and temporary residents on the earth.

International Standard Version
All these people died having faith. They did not receive the things that were promised, yet they saw them in the distant FUTURE and welcomed them, acknowledging that they were strangers
and foreigners on earth.

Here we can deduce some facts
1. All those that paul mentioned(enoch inclusive) died. Enoch was not excluded in these verse .
2. Enoch did not receive the promise
( meaning enoch did not ascend to
heaven ) but saw it in a distant future!, enoch was not ressurected .
Enoch did not go to heaven, not before jesus ascention anyway.
Jesus was the first one to ascend to heaven. ( John 3:13; Hebrews 6:19, 20) Enoch’s being
“transferred so as not to see death” may mean that God put him in a prophetic trance and then terminated his life (died)while he was in that state. Under such circumstances, Enoch did not suffer, or “see death,” at the hands of his enemies.(he did not go through the act or process of death )

Jesus plainly stated: “No man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven,
the Son of man.” Jesus was the “forerunner”
of all who ascend to heaven.— John 3:13; Hebrews 6:19, 20..


Enoch lived 365 years—not nearly as long as most of his contemporaries. But the important thing for lovers of Jehovah is that they serve him faithfully to the end of their days. We know that Enoch did that because “before his transference he had the witness that he had pleased God well.” The Scriptures do not disclose how Jehovah communicated this to Enoch. Nevertheless, before Enoch died, he was given assurance of God’s approval, and we can be certain that Jehovah will remember him in the resurrection.(a future event/promise



Did elijah go to the dwelling place of God.?

2 Kings 2:11
King James Bible
And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

By the end of my explanation we will be able to know if elijah did go to Gods dwelling place.
At 2 Kings 2:11, 12 the prophet Elijah is
described as “ascending in the windstorm to the heavens.” The heavens here referred to are the
atmospheric heavens in which windstorms occur, not the spiritual heavens of God’s
presence. Elijah did not die(undergo any transition ) at the time of such ascension, but he continued to live for a number of years after his heavenly transportation away from his successor Elisha.
A number of years after his ascension in the windstorm Elijah is still alive and active as a prophet, this time to the king of Judah. Because of the wicked course taken by King Jehoram of Judah, Elijah writes him a letter expressing Jehovah’s condemnation, which is fulfilled shortly thereafter.

2Ch 21:12-15;
Eventually a written message came to
him from E·li′jah the prophet, saying.............

Nor did Elijah upon death ascend to the spiritual heavens, since Jesus, while on earth, clearly stated that “no man has ascended into heaven (the dwelling place of God)
Joh 3:13;
.
King James 2000 Bible
And no man has ascended up to heaven,
but he that came down from heaven,
even the Son of man who is in heaven.

At Pentecost, Peter likewise said ofDavid that
he “did not ascend to theheavens.” ( Acts 2:34)

King James Bible
For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my righthand.

In reality, there is nothing in the Scriptures to show that a heavenly hope was held out to God’s servants prior to the coming of Christ Jesus.(why would jesus need to come and die for our sins when we already could go to heaven and have evalasting life?)
Such hope first appears in Jesus’ expressions to his disciples ( Mt 19:21, 23-28; Lu 12:32; Joh
14:2, 3) and was fully comprehended by them only after Pentecost of 33 C.E.—Ac 1:6-8; 2:1-4, 29-36; Ro 8:16, 17.
The Scriptures show that Christ Jesus was the first one to ascend from earth to the heavens of God’s presence.
1Co 15:20;

International Standard Version
But at this moment the Messiah stands risen from the dead, the first one offered in the harvest of those who have died.
(this includes enoch,elijah And the faithfull ones)

Heb 9:24
King James Bible
For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
By such ascension and his presentation of his ransom sacrifice there, he ‘opened the way’ for those who would follow.
Those that will go to heaven must bear the image of the heavenly one, ChristJesus, in order to ascend to the heavens of the spirit plane, for “flesh and blood” cannot inherit that heavenly Kingdom.—
1Co 15:42-50..


(1 Thess. 4:16-17; 1 Cor.15:51-54; Phil.3:20-21).

These scriptures helps us to understand the ressurection process of those who will rule with jesus in heaven .here ,unlike in enoch's case, where the ressurected ones are going is mentioned.
Even if these could also happen to enoch and elijah,it did not happen at their death cus because paul said such hope for them whigh they had faith in was far off(in the future), as at enoch's and Elijah's death, the rsmsom sacrifice has not yet Been presented to God in heaven to enable man go to heaven.



So we see, from the bible , the word of
God , that elijah or enoch did not ascend
to the dwelling place God.

@OLADEEGBU
This is the post where I quoted the scriptures you posted, explained what it meant, and surported my explanation with other scriptures . If you dnt agree with me, then explain ur view on all the scriptures I quoted.

Concernedman:
Before downloading the Audios below take these three Rhetoric Questions

1--If a man's wife travels abroad and he misses her, he cherishes her pictures even more. If for instance he kisses her picture with affection, where is his mind?? On the wife ? or On the picture before him??

2--If Mr President salutes our National Flag on our Armed Forces Remembrance day or any other parade setting, where does his mind go?? On the flag? or on the entire country and her fallen heroes ? Is he saluting the painted cloth or another reality greater than the cloth(flag)?

3-If a friend visits you and spots your mother's picture on your wall. He then spits on it and tells you that "This picture is a disgusting and senseless" ,what will you do? Before responding, recall that he only abused your mother's picture! Not your biological mother! Only her picture!


After answering the questions above you can then behold these --Controversial Teachings of the Catholic Church below well founded on the scriptures! The expositions are quite shocking! Have your Bible on hand as you open up the links! Pay particular attention to the first topic!

1:Very strong audio apologetics on why Catholics use statues and Images:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/zd0nmeia7rl3gqw/WHY%20DO%20CATHOLICS%20BOW%20TO%20IMAGES.mp3?dl=0
2:Very strong expose’ on the Hail Mary and the secret/power of the Holy Rosary:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/flb13ljgs97i179/MARY%20%26%20THE%20HOLY%20ROSARY%28why%20we%20pray%20through%20Mary%29.mp3?dl=0
3:Proof that The Virgin Mary has no other Child outside Jesus Christ:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/q799e13fg0wnu3p/MARY%20HAS%20NO%20OTHER%20CHILD%20OUTSIDE%20JESUS.mp3?dl=0
4: Why do we call Mary –The Mother of God?:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/t820tf15l5kat7d/Is%20Mary%20the%20Mother%20of%20God.mp3?dl=0
5-In defence of Mary’s Immaculate conception:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/iv7dngumcl0r6ge/Mary%20The%20Immaculate%20Conception.mp3?dl=0

These are questions one should also ask

1. A) do I have the real picture of Mary and others as I have the real pictures of my wife.
B)if I have another womans pics and kiss it to remind me of my wife, how would my wife feel?
C) do I worship my wife at any time , to make the comparison between the picture of my wife and picture of those that I worship relevant?

2. A)does the president worship the flag or anyone related to the flag?
B) what does the one that his image was made say about making images he did not direct us to make for the purpose of worship?

MzNelly:

Huh? You support what he's doing?

Well... I dnt think its wrong debunking lies about others on the internet. Expecially when it helps others know more about God.
But I do think that to who and how you do it is important .
I might be wrong sha o! And can only explain the reason why I think I might be wrong privately if you wish to know

MzNelly:
The greater majority won't read it, trust me.
These people just want to ridicule us.
Why bother?

Well sis, the truth is not for the greater majority in the first place. That y I bracketed " sincere ones" . Some of them do read it.

MzNelly:
RikoduoSennin, you have their time.

Its good he has their time o. So that everyone (sincere people) can come to a conclusion after reading all the posts .

johnw74:
dolphinheart:
Sir, wunt mind to answer the questions you asked. But pls I would love you to answer question 2 and 4 in the right format.

2. Rephrased: jesus was equal to God when he was in heaven . He was not equal to God when he was on earth. Did he regain that equality with God when he went back to heaven? , simple yes or no

The issue I am talking about is whether God and the Word - Jesus are God, and I and others have posted many verses showing that they are. The issue for me is not and has not been whether the father is superior to the Son, Fathers usually are.

4. Rephrased : Jesus said we should baptize in their name, what is the name we should baptise in . Why should we baptise in such name.

I posted that verse along with others showing that the father the Son and the Holy Ghost are God.
Mat_28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
For the third time you tell me the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost.


I'm sorry I'm asking you these questions before answering urs. But when you give me straight answers on the question I asked, ill have a better understanding of ur view and know how to reply .

You see now, if I did not ask the questions, we might have been arguing on points that we might have the same beliefs on.

Now I thing that this is ur oppinion
1. Jesus is God , but not almighty God and he is not the same as the rather and not equal to the father.
2. Father is God and almighty God
3. Holy spirit is God but not almighty God.
4. That the true God mentioned in the bible is just one singular person , but a collection of three different persons with different authorities which make up one God.

If my assumptions of ur view are true, let me know so that I can then reply on the scriptures u quoted

ProphetUdeme:
the verse also said that by inheritance He hath obtained a more excellent name than they.. Jesus is the heir to God and he Came Forth from God as The Living Word that is why He is called the Begotten Son of God... He wasnt created. He existed with His Father and He wasnt created

The truth is like hot coal to those who try to hide its light.
When words of truth come out and you try to hide it with black clothe by changing the topic or scripture under discussion, by refusing to answer questions posed , the truth will have no choice than to burn through the clothe for its light to shine to all.
Quote the verse again and explain who made jesus to be what he is . And remember to add the definition of "made" to it.
Look at the word obtained, does it not tell you that the person who obtains does not have what he obtained before he obtained it?

Look at the word inheritance: does it not imply something giving to you? Who gave it?

"by inheritance, he obtained a name" : does this not mean that he did not have that name before?

Look at the word heir: does it not imply that you are the one in line to receive what you dnt have?

Is God is own heir?
Can someone inherit something that is already his?

Jesus was called son of God
Angels too are called sons of God
All came forth from God
Are they all God then?

When you sincerely answer those questions, not trying to hide it behind excuses, then you will know that the thruth cannot be hidden

paulGrundy:
@delelb, would you rather prefer to have a subjective/hollywood-star-view of jehovah's witnesses? Promoted by JW's themselves?

Or an honest, objective, and accurate view of Jehovahs witnesses contained in www.jwfacts.com?

If I were you, I would go for the latter, I would rather go for a site a provides me with tested, trusted and verifiable information.

@deleib, I want to believe you re in search of bible truth, that is why you posted this thread.
Take time , look at all the posts posted before now on this thread, look at who has tried helping in answering ur questions and who has just come to attack others.
With that you will know who wants you to learn about God, and where you can gain more knowledge about Gods words. Thank you

deleib:
I was pointing to contradiction between John 1:18(regarding d fact dat no one has eva seen God at any point in time) and exodus 24:11(regarding the nobles of Israel seeing God and yet God didn't raise his hand against them) to a JW. Bt it shocked me when he said that exodus 24:11 is a false teaching by the jews that what was said in John 1:18 is the right thing.

This has been shaking my faith in the Bible.

Any explanation to this,pls?

Sir , hope ayoka, sterlingnealet and rikodou have been able to answer your questions .
One thing we should note is that the scriptures explains scriptures. If u look at what other scriptures that where quoted say concerning the possibility of man being able to see God, then you can come to a better understanding of what that scripture under contention is really saying .
If you want to know more about jehovahs witnesses and what they teach, call on anyone of them and discuss with them, its free , no forced contribution. You can also visit their official website which is www.jw.org .
That is the website operated by them

johnw74:
I believe the Father and Son and Holy Spirit are equal, I know they are God, just look at all those verses I posted.




Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

This is saying that the Father the Son and the Holy Ghost are God.
Baptizing in the Father the Son and the Holy Ghost is Baptizing in God.

dolphinheart, do you think God and the Word are equal?
what do you think is the name of the Father the Son and the Holy Ghost?

Sir, wunt mind to answer the questions you asked. But pls I would love you to answer question 2 and 4 in the right format.

2. Rephrased: jesus was equal to God when he was in heaven . He was not equal to God when he was on earth. Did he regain that equality with God when he went back to heaven? , simple yes or no

4. Rephrased : jesus said we should baptize in their name, what is the name we should baptise in . Why should we baptise in such name.

I'm sorry I'm asking you these questions before answering urs. But when you give me straight answers on the question I asked, ill have a better understanding of ur view and know how to reply .

johnw74:
~

Do JW's still teach that Jesus is an angel?


Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.


Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Heb 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
Heb 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
Heb 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
Heb 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

God called the Son, "God".

~

Quote heb 1:4 again and then use it to explain to us that jesus is God, equal to the father, uncreated

Who is made?
Who made him?
Remember , made = produced or manufactured by something.

You are quick to point to the fact that he was made better than the angels , making u forget the fact that he was made.

tola9ja:
I don't need to reply u anymore cos u hav been brain washed arguing without a scriptural evidences
Proverb26:4
Quran2:18
Quran2:171

This is not a discussion that needs scriptural evidence, this is a discussion in which the scriptural evidence provided by you needs authentification. Just prove the source of the scriptures u quoted, are they authentic(from God) or not.

tola9ja:
I don't need to reply u anymore cos u hav been brain washed arguing without a scriptural evidences
Proverb26:4
Quran2:18
Quran2:171

Let me get serious with you

You dnt understand the bible, stop using it to prove anything. You only see words that suit ur ideaology but you dnt understand them.

U dnt understand the reason why some things are recorded in the bible and the way they are recorded. You re using the Koran format to read the bible which is quit silly.

Now let me tell you why I think the bible is really the word of God and the Koran is false.

People who believe in the scriptures do not use the koran to explain themselves while the koran followers like you are always searching through the scriptures to prove themselves right.

The bible scriptures was written in different languages, by over 40 people who lived thousands of years apart, who have different educational background. But the theme, harmony and purpose of wateva story or event they wrote is still there. The purpose is to proclaim jehovahs sovereinty, his ways and his kingdom which is evident from genesis to revelation. These shows that the inspiration to write all these books comes from one source. The bible writers acknowledge each other, make refference to each other, quote from each other, foretell about events and people and the fulfillment of such are eventually written by another.
All the writters of the bible scriptures are all descendants of Isaac, who God told that the seed will come through.

One should marvel at such harmony, historical facts and fluency in understanding of purpose, rather than arguing translational issues.
The bible contains numerous prophesies which have been fufilled and are presently being fufilled. those prophesies are written hundreds of years before their fufillement Those prophesies affect mankind and change their culture, ways and mode of worship. Some of those prophesies mention names, mention dates and time, mention powerful kingdoms and are being fulfiled the way they are being recorded. Only jehovah can provide, has provided such prophesies to be written down in the scriptures.

now let's look at the koran, the koran was originated by 1 man , authenticated by one man, and enforced by the rule of one man . Unlike the bible where God spoke to different writters to prove the divine authorship of another writer at another time, its only the originator of the koran that can prove he has divine contact when originating the koran.

The koran and its religion was spread by the Brutal force and selfish ambition of one man , a man who unlike the writers of the bible , exempted himself from the rules he originated and used the book he originated to prove his exemption.
A man who used the book he originated to prove his right to murder, steal, obtain by force, rape and rule over others.

A man who wrote into the book he originated, stories and events that where written by others before him , claiming those stories, adding to it, fine tuning it and then claiming they are divine.

Examples are the stories of adam, the exodus from Egypt, jewish laws and customs, Arabic cultures and beliefs and revelations in the bible. Those stories written in the koran already have a version of it written hundreds of years before it.

Despite the koran being originated by one man, one language and during a short period of time, it has been abrogated in several places.

The prophesies claimed to be in the koran are vague predictions, an attempted to link scientific theories and advancement with koranic statements. For example linking airplane movement to mapping of tracks in the sky, when knowing that for thousands of years, travellers have used the stars to map their movements and locations.

Those prophesies never changed mans advancement in any way, unlike the prophesies in the bible.

Ishmail was driven off from abraham, and the scriptures has since then foretold that its descendants would be constantly antagonising the descendants of Isaac and its ways. We are seeing that today in the wars and actions the Arabs and its religious followers are participating in and around isreal and all over the world.

The originator of the koran thought the ways he expanded his religion would not be noticed by its followers , but he was wrong! His true followers noticed and are practicing his ways and some of his words.

[quote author=tola9ja post=29197581][/quote]Its ok if u are seriously trying not to shoot urself in the head, its called survival .
What's not ok is you still holding on to the gun.
Well I do hope you can get treatment( the truth) on the hole in ur foot, cus of u dnt treat it, the injury will get worse.

You have so far quoted scriptures you say are from the bible. You say this scriptures show that christians kill, that their God is wicked. You say the scriptures u quoted are the authentic word of God and not the adulterated parts of the Torah and gospel.

In ur bid to make christians look bad and muslims look good , u have forgoten that muslims claim moses as their prophet. These same moses you say is serving a wicked God.

I believe you have realised ur grave mistake and now doing damage limitations,but u are only making it worse. U are saying I should read the authentic gospel, a book you urself have not seen or read,how then can you prove that such book exist. U say that you read the Koran, yet use scriptures not from the Koran to authenticate it. I asked you to show me a well known Islamic leader, one we can search and see , who has said that the prophecies u quoted are trully fufilled the way u said it, apart from the author of the book. So far ur google search is not working. I wanna talk to in in a manner that everybody wanting to learn can listen to both of us .