₦airaland Forum

Syncan:
Please be careful the way you discard evidence, all I have done is show you how God revealed in scriptures that Jesus is God. Look at your own Post, even if you have thrown away Titus 2:13, Jn1:1-3, Heb1:8, it is you that is manufacturing "god" for Jesus, not the scriptures. Let no one deceive you, In Yawheh is the father and the word, Yawheh is the I am formula. This "I am" formula is a reference back to the Divine Name revealed to Moses in Ex. 3:14. Not only does Jesus refer to himself as "I am" four times in John’s Gospel ( John 8:24; 58; 13:19 and 18:5-6), but when he does so in John 8:58, the Jews to whom he was speaking understood his meaning because they immediately wanted to stone him for blasphemy!

Jesus is God.

Sir, I did not discard any quote, rather it is u that has refused to directly answer bible based questions on ur trinity. You have not answered the questions asked.
I did not throw away titus 2:13, I told u that said that jesus is a god , that he is even to be called mighty god . Therfore it is not me that manufactured god for Jesus(wateva u mean by the statement) but the bible did.
Though the issue of jesus being a god is not what I'm discussing with you, u brought that up.
I did not throw away John 1:1-3 and heb 1:8.
Those verses have been explained and discussed with you by others who are also seeking the truth. They have explained it to you, me and others reading in on this thread in ways that I believe is even better than I can explain it. Or do you want me to re quote them on my post for u to understand them?
The word/ phrase "I am " has also been explained to you, do u want me to re quote that one too.
You are the one refusing to answer the following questions

1.) The bible did not reveal that jesus is same as the father, if I'm wrong ,give us where the bible stated that jesus is jehovah/yaweh or father.
2. The bible reveals to us that we must worship the one and only true God, it reveals his name as jehovah/yaweh .
Give us where the bible states that jesus is an only true God.
3. Give us where jesus is called almighty God.
4 . When God was giving judgement to Satan and he mention that the womans seed will crush the serpent, are u saying that this seed was jehovah/yaweh /father.
5 when god was telling moses that he will send another prophet like moses to the people of isreal, that he will come from among the isrealites. This prophet eventually became jesus, are u saying that God planned to send himself?

Syncan:
Lol. As if you read it.

Sir, this is not a laughing matter. Have u read it?

Before jesus came to earth , God prophesied about the womans seed who will eventualy become jesus.
Is the father the seed of the woman ?

When god told moses that he will sends prophet to the isrealites,and these prophet eventually became jesus, was he telling moses that he will be sending himself?

Syncan:
Stop copy and paste, you can read it, make sense of it and write what you mean, I doubt if you made sense of what you posted. Anyway see below: Make I join una for copying and pasting many bibles for this one.

TITUS 2:13

New International Version
while we wait for the blessed hope--the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,

New Living Translation
while we look forward with hope to that wonderful day when the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, will be revealed.

English Standard Version
waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

New American Standard Bible
looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,

King James Bible
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

Holman Christian Standard Bible
while we wait for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.

Jesus is God.

Sir, why do you say I should stop copy and paste, do u expect me to retype the information I want to pass to you when such information has already been typed and easily accessible.? I dnt think ull expect me to do that. What u read in my post is what I mean, what I understand about the bible and what I believe in .
Maybe, not to you , but to me and the majority of others who are seeking the thruth, I do make sense.
Please respond to what I posted and not to how I post it. WHO DOES THE BIBLE CALL THE ONLY TRUE GOD?

On titus 2:13 and ur submition that jesus is God .
Yes, jesus is a god,the bible said he will be called a "mighty god".
But jesus is not the father and jesus himself said that the father is greater than he is and he does the fathers will and also that his authority comes from the father.
This is because jesus is subordinate to the father for only the father is ever called the "ALMIGHTY GOD".
Jesus is as savior through the father cus it was the father that sent him to save us.
Jude 25

New International Version
to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through
Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages,
now and forevermore! Amen.

King James Bible
To the only wise God our Saviour, be
glory and majesty, dominion and power,
both now and ever. Amen.
majesty, power,
and authority, before all time, and now,
and for all eternity. Amen.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Before his glory in joy ( He alone is God
our Savior by Yeshua The Messiah our
Lord ); to him is the praise, dominion,
honor and majesty, even now and unto all
ages. Amen.
.
American King James Version
To the only wise God our Savior, be glory
and majesty, dominion and power, both
now and ever. Amen.

Nowhere in the scripture is jesus called "almighty god " or "one truegod" which is d god we are required to worship.
The only name that is mentioned which such title is jehovah/yaweh /father, and jesus specificaly stated that he is none of those three.

Syncan:
Ok na, take your time, don't rush.

The New Catholic Encyclopedia states:
“The formulation ‘one God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title the Trinitarian dogma. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective.”—(1967), Vol. XIV, p. 299.

In The Encyclopedia Americana we read:
“Christianity derived from Judaism and Judaism was strictly Unitarian [believing that God is one person]. The road which led from Jerusalem to Nicea was scarcely a straight one. Fourth century Trinitarianism did not reflect accurately early Christian teaching regarding the nature of God; it was, on the contrary, a deviation from this teaching.”—
(1956), Vol. XXVII, p. 294L
.
According to the Nouveau Dictionnaire
Universel, “The Platonic trinity, itself merely
a rearrangement of older trinities dating back
to earlier peoples, appears to be the rational
philosophic trinity of attributes that gave birth to the three hypostases or divine persons taught by the Christian churches. . . . This Greek philosopher’s [Plato, fourth century B.C.E.] conception of the divine trinity . . . can be found in all the ancient [pagan] religions.”—(Paris,
1865-1870), edited by M. Lachâtre, Vol. 2, p.
1467.

John L. McKenzie, S.J., in his Dictionary of the Bible, says: “The trinity of persons within the unity of nature is defined in terms of ‘person’ and ‘nature’ which are G[ree]k philosophical terms; actually the terms do not appear in the Bible. The trinitarian definitions arose as the result of long controversies in which these terms and others such as ‘essence’ and ‘substance’ were erroneously applied to God by some theologians.”—(New York, 1965), p. 899.

Even though, as Trinitarians acknowledge, neither the word “Trinity” nor a statement of the Trinitarian dogma is found in the Bible, are the concepts that are embodied in that dogma found
there?
Karl Rahner, S.J., admits: “Θεός [God] is still never used of the Spirit,” and: “ὁ θεός [literally, the God] is never used in the New Testament to speak of the πνεῦμα ἅγιον [holy spirit].”—
(Baltimore, Md.; 1961), translated from
German, Vol. I, pp. 138, 143.

1 John 5:7, 8:
KJ reads: “For there are three that bear
record in heaven, the Father, the Word,
and the Holy Ghost: and these three
are one. And there are three that bear
witness in earth, the spirit, and the
water, and the blood: and these three
agree in one.” (Dy also includes this
Trinitarian passage.) However, some translations does not include the words “in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy
Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth.” (RS, NE, TEV, JB, NAB also leave out the Trinitarian passage.)
Regarding this Trinitarian passage, textual critic F. H. A. Scrivener wrote:
“We need not hesitate to declare our conviction that the disputed words were not written by St. John: that they were originally brought into. Latin copies in Africa from the margin, where they had been placed as a pious and orthodox
gloss on ver. 1Jo 5:8: that from the Latin they crept into two or three late Greek codices, and thence into the printed Greek text, a place to which they had no rightful claim.”—A Plain
Introduction to the Criticism of the New
Testament (Cambridge, 1883, third
ed.), p. 654.

Jesus said: “For the sake of your tradition, you have made void the word of God. You hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy of you, when he said: ‘This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me; in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.’” ( Matt. 15:6-9


Regarding the Trinity, the Athanasian Creed (in English) says that its members are “incomprehensible.” Teachers of the doctrine
often state that it is a “mystery.” Obviously such a Trinitarian God is not the one that Jesus had in mind when he said: “We worship what we know.” ( John 4:22, RS) Do you really know the God you worship?

Syncan:
Ok na, take your time, don't rush.

Since the op has refused to comment on ur view on trinity , ill take it that he has accepted ur view.
Here is what the noble say about the true God that we are to worship.

Duet 6:4
New International Version
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.

New Living Translation
"Listen, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD alone.

English Standard Version
“Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.

New American Standard Bible
"Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!

King James Bible
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD


Holman Christian Standard Bible
Listen, Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is One.

International Standard Version "Listen, Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD alone.

NET Bible
Listen, Israel: The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!

Jubilee Bible 2000
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD.

American Standard Version
Hear, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah:

Darby Bible Translation
Hear, Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah;

English Revised Version
Hear, O Israel: the LORD our God is one LORD:

World English Bible
Hear, Israel: Yahweh is our God; Yahweh is one:

Young's Literal Translation
Hear, O Israel, Jehovah our God is one Jehovah;

Jehovah /yahweh is our God and he is the God we worship. here the bible helps us to understand that he is one God and one God ALONE.
This statement was made in the bible because as at that time trinity gods have been rampant among pagan religions and doctrines around the isrealites and jehovah wanted them to know that he is not a trinity and only him alone is their God .

Jesus reminded us about these when he came to earth in John 17 verses 1-3 which states thus:
Jesus spoke these things, and raising
his eyes to heaven, he said: “Father, the
hour has come. Glorify your son so that your
son may glorify you,
2. just as you have given him authority over all flesh, so that he may give everlasting life to all those whom you have given to him.
3 This means everlasting life, their coming to
know you, the only true God, and the one
whom you sent, Jesus Christ.


Other bible translations render verse 3 thus :

New International Version
Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

New Living Translation
And this is the way to have eternal life--to
know you, the only true God, and Jesus
Christ, the one you sent to earth.

English Standard Version
And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.

New American Standard Bible
"This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

King James Bible
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.


Here jesus is stating that the father is the only true God and not a trinity or 3 in 1 or 1 in 3. But rather he is simply one jehovah(father), and that the father sent him . The father did not send himself , but he sent jesus (for god so loved the world that he sent his only begotten son ).
This is what the father(jehovah) said to Moses to show u that it is not him or part of him that is coming as jesus :deut 18:18
King James Bible
I will raise them up a Prophet from among
their brethren, like unto thee, and will put
my words in his mouth; and he shall
speak unto them all that I shall command
him.

This fact is further made by apostle paul when he stated in 1 corinth 8 verse 5,6 which states thus:
1 Cor. 8:5, 6, RS: “Although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth —as indeed there are many ‘gods’ and many ‘lords’—yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.”

Paul statements presents the Father as the “one God” of Christians and as being in a class distinct from Jesus Christ.

Even peter helps us to understand more about who the real god is as distinct from Jesus Christ.)
1 Pet. 1:3:

New American Standard Bible
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead

King James Bible
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead

Repeatedly, even following Jesus’ ascension to heaven, the Scriptures refer to the Father as “the God” of Jesus Christ. At John 20:17, following Jesus’ resurrection, he himself spoke of the Father as “my God.” Later, when in heaven, as recorded at Revelation 3:12, he again used the same expression. BUT NEVER IN THE BIBLE IS THE FATHER REPORTED TO REFER TO THE SON AS "MY GOD” nor does either the Father or the Son refer to the holy spirit as “my God.”

Not watched a lot of Korean movies yet. But I got addicted to 3, which are "boys before flowers "," empress ki" and "jumong"

Superstar007:
Anyone watched Guardians of our Galaxy is the movie interesting?

Yep, it was interesting , very funny conversations

Syncan:
Exactly why I said you should stick to what God has revealed, just as it is, without truncating what you don't understand. So what you got from my post is that Jesus is the father? Smh.

God called His son Jesus God in Heb 1:8.

Thomas exclaimed before Jesus " My Lord and My God" in Jn20:28

Jesus is the word made flesh, and the "word was God" as seen in Jn1:1

Paul refers to Jesus when he was "in the form of God" thinking "his equality with God" not something to be grasped onto, but emptying himself and becoming man Phill2:6 (Paul takes for granted that you already know that Jesus is equal with God the father...how wrong he was about you).

Jesus Christ used the words I am severally in scriptures to talk about himself, as a matter of fact, when He said it in Jn 8:58 , the Jews saw it as blasphemy and took up stones to cast at Him. Let me stop with this for now, none of you is yet to disprove that God called His Son Jesus God in Heb 1:8.

1jn5:7there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit. And these three are one. kJV

I'm not going to rush and comment on ur statement. Ill wait untill after the op has comented on the relationship between jesus and the father.

Syncan:
Sorry sir, you got it wrong. Christians Worship One God. The father, the son and the Holy Spirit.

Jesus and the father are not like you and your son. That is your problem, you are trying to figure the essence of God, using body which is a lower level of creation, (not everything created has body) yet the only time God took flesh was when the word became flesh. Even you as you are, when you shed this body, will you cease to exist? Stop using limited knowledge to question what God has revealed, trying to explain this in detail will only get you confused because there's a lot you need to know and agree with first as basis. When Jesus appeared to the apostles, after his resurrection, the doors and windows were secured, but he entered. It means if he had passed through the walls for example, he must have occupied same space with a part of the wall at least at a time while passing, how is this possible for a matter. He could as well be occupying the same space with peter and still be there, how is this possible? Yet in this state, Thomas was still able to touch his wounds Jn20:27-28 and exclaimed "My Lord and my God". This is Jesus that has taken flesh of man, how then do you confine the word to space and time like you and your son? The word, by which all things were created, the Word that was with God, the Word that Was God.

Before I comment, @op, is this true, that Jesus is the same entity as god , that jesus is also the father?

Syncan:
What view do you expect to hear again, verse 6 is very clear in talking about God, references where made of the father in whom all things were made, also of the son Jesus Christ (the word) by whom all things were made...(account of creation). This word (Jesus Christ) was with God, and was God, even from Beginning as seen in John 1:1. And God made it clear in Heb 1:8 when He called Jesus God.

Verse 6 states : yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we live, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through
whom are all things and through whom we
live.

Verse 6 is very clear on who the only (one) God Christians worship is : the father.
Verse 6 is very clear on who our lord is : Jesus Christ.
Verse 6 is very clear on there roles in relation to human existence. All things are created from the father for the father through Jesus. For example if I give my son money to buy something for me and the son goes ahead and purchases the item , will u say the goods belong to the son ? Even the seller knows the goods was bought by the father through the son. It does not make the father and son co-owners of the goods.

On John 1.1 ,are u saying that Jesus and the father are one inseperable body ? . Or one body that can be seperated into segments. ( other trinitanians pls take note and respond) .

@op, still waiting for answers to my questions

Syncan:
Don't you see how deceitful you are? Why not complete the verses, why cut and join to soothe your distorted view?

King James Bible
5.For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
6.But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him
7. there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.

Now let's hear ur view.

OLAADEGBU:
Yes. God is God either you call Him Almighty God or Mighty God.



One God in three Persons. The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.



Jesus is not the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit is not Jesus neither is Jesus the Father but all three Personalities are One God.

Questions
1.) Where in the bible is Jesus called almighty God.
2.)what do you really mean by "one god in 3 persons"? Are u saying that the 3 of them are in 1 person? Or one person is in the 3 of them? Or 3 of them are different characteristics of one person? Or the 3 are the different parts of one person? Does one personalities have three different handles or 3 different handles are being controlled by one person.
3.)please explain further how all three personalities are one god, are you also saying here that the personality(person) of Jesus is different from that of jehova? That they are 2 different spirit forces?

OLAADEGBU:
It's not a dilemma it's called the Holy Trinity. Jesus is really God, the Second Person in the Godhead.

Questions.
1.) Is Jesus the almighty God.?
2.) In the trinity , are they just one person with 3 different personalities,or are they 3 different personalities with the same authority.
3.)is Jesus the holy spirit? Is the holy spirit Jesus?

majorgr:
After rapture or correctly said after the catching away of the church, there wud be immediately the great tribulations which will last for about 3.5 years, in which 144000 Jews wud be saved, immediately after this, we are told that Jesus will be coming back with His saint and will rule for 1000yrs in which Satan wud be cast into the bottomless pit. Yes, before the new earth and new Heavens. We are going to rule the earth with Jesus for a thousand yrs before the adversary wud be released from his pit to deceive the world to fight Christ. This could only mean one thing, we are coming back home but this time to rule with Christ.

Need scriptural prove to ur statement

More on my opoinion on the soul.(sources and edited)

In the Bible, “soul” is
translated from the Hebrew ne′phesh
and the Greek psy·khe′. Bible usage
shows the soul to be a person or an
animal or the life that a person or an
animal enjoys. To you
however, “soul” means the
immaterial or spirit part of a human
being that survives the death of the
physical body. Others understand it
to be the principle of life. But these
latter views don't correspond with the bible teachings.
What does the Bible say that helps us to
understand what the soul is?
Gen. 2:7: “Jehovah God proceeded to
form the man out of dust from the ground
and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life,
and the man came to be a living
soul.” (Notice that this does not say that
man was given a soul but that he became a
soul, a living person.) (The part of the
Hebrew word here rendered “soul” is ne
′phesh. KJ, AS, and Dy agree with that
rendering. RS, JB, NAB read “being.” NE
says “creature.” Kx reads “person.”)
1 Cor. 15:45: “It is even so written: ‘The
first man Adam became a living soul.’ The
last Adam became a life-giving spirit.” (So
the Christian Greek Scriptures agree with
the Hebrew Scriptures as to what the soul
is.) (The Greek word here translated “soul”
is the accusative case of psy·khe′. KJ, AS,
Dy, JB, NAB, and Kx also read “soul.” RS,
NE, and TEV say “being.”)
1 Pet. 3:20: “In Noah’s days . . . a few
people, that is, eight souls, were carried
safely through the water.” (The Greek word
here translated “souls” is psy·khai′, the
plural form of psy·khe′. KJ, AS, Dy, and Kx
also read “souls.” JB and TEV say “people”;
RS, NE, and NAB use “persons.”)
Gen. 9:5: “Besides that, your blood of
your souls [or, “lives”; Hebrew, from ne
′phesh] shall I ask back.” (Here the soul is
said to have blood.)
Josh. 11:11: “They went striking every
soul [Hebrew, ne′phesh] that was in it with
the edge of the sword.” (The soul is here
shown to be something that can be touched
by the sword, so these souls could not have
been spirits.)
Where does the Bible say that
animals are souls?
Gen. 1:20, 21, 24, 25: “God went on to
say: ‘Let the waters swarm forth a
swarm of living souls* . . . ’ And God
proceeded to create the great sea
monsters and every living soul that
moves about, which the waters
swarmed forth according to their kinds,
and every winged flying creature
according to its kind. . . . And God went
on to say: ‘Let the earth put forth living
souls according to their kinds . . . ’ And
God proceeded to make the wild beast
of the earth according to its kind and
the domestic animal according to its
kind and every moving animal of the
ground according to its kind.” (*In
Hebrew the word here is ne′phesh. Ro
reads “soul.” Some translations use the
rendering “creature[s].”)
Lev. 24:17, 18: “In case a man strikes
any soul [Hebrew, ne′phesh] of
mankind fatally, he should be put to
death without fail. And the fatal striker
of the soul [Hebrew, ne′phesh] of a
domestic animal should make
compensation for it, soul for
soul.” (Notice that the same Hebrew
word for soul is applied to both
mankind and animals.)
Rev. 16:3: “It became blood as of a
dead man, and every living soul* died,
yes, the things in the sea.” (Thus the
Christian Greek Scriptures also show
animals to be souls.) (*In Greek the
word here is psy·khe′. KJ, AS, and Dy
render it “soul.” Some translators use
the term “creature” or “thing.”)
What do some books say
“There is no dichotomy [division] of
body and soul in the O[ld] T[estament].
The Israelite saw things concretely, in
their totality, and thus he considered
men as persons and not as
composites. The term nepeš [ne
′phesh], though translated by our word
soul, never means soul as distinct from
the body or the individual person. . . .
The term [psy·khe′] is the N[ew] T
[estament] word corresponding with
nepeš. It can mean the principle of life,
life itself, or the living being.”—New
Catholic Encyclopedia (1967), Vol.
XIII, pp. 449, 450.
“The Hebrew term for ‘soul’ (nefesh,
that which breathes) was used by
Moses . . . , signifying an ‘animated
being’ and applicable equally to
nonhuman beings. . . . New Testament
usage of psychē (‘soul’) was
comparable to nefesh.”—The New
Encyclopædia Britannica (1976),
Macropædia, Vol. 15, p. 152.
“The belief that the soul continues its
existence after the dissolution of the
body is a matter of philosophical or
theological speculation rather than of
simple faith, and is accordingly
nowhere expressly taught in Holy
Scripture.”—The Jewish Encyclopedia
(1910), Vol. VI, p. 564.
Can the human soul die?
Ezek. 18:4: “Look! All the souls—to me
they belong. As the soul of the father so
likewise the soul of the son—to me they
belong. The soul* that is sinning—it itself will
die.” (*Hebrew reads “the ne′phesh.” KJ, AS,
RS, NE, and Dy render it “the soul.” Some
translations say “the man” or “the person.”)
Matt. 10:28: “Do not become fearful of
those who kill the body but cannot kill the
soul [or, “life”]; but rather be in fear of him
that can destroy both soul* and body in
Gehenna.” (*Greek has the accusative case
of psy·khe′. KJ, AS, RS, NE, TEV, Dy, JB,
and NAB all render it “soul.”)
Acts 3:23: “Indeed, any soul [Greek,
psy·khe′] that does not listen to that Prophet
will be completely destroyed from among the
people.”
Is the soul the same as the spirit?
Eccl. 12:7: “Then the dust returns to the
earth just as it happened to be and the spirit
[or, life-force; Hebrew, ru′ach] itself returns
to the true God who gave it.” (Notice that the
Hebrew word for spirit is ru′ach; but the word
translated soul is ne′phesh. The text does
not mean that at death the spirit travels all
the way to the personal presence of God;
rather, any prospect for the person to live
again rests with God. In similar usage, we
may say that, if required payments are not
made by the buyer of a piece of property, the
property “returns” to its owner.) (KJ, AS, RS,
NE, and Dy all here render ru′ach as “spirit.”
NAB reads “life breath.”)
Eccl. 3:19: “There is an eventuality as
respects the sons of mankind and an
eventuality as respects the beast, and they
have the same eventuality. As the one dies,
so the other dies; and they all have but one
spirit [Hebrew, ru′ach].” (Thus both mankind
and beasts are shown to have the same ru
′ach, or spirit.
Heb. 4:12: “The word of God is alive and
exerts power and is sharper than any two-
edged sword and pierces even to the
dividing of soul [Greek, psy·khes′; “life,” NE]
and spirit [Greek, pneu′ma·tos], and of joints
and their marrow, and is able to discern
thoughts and intentions of the
heart.” (Observe that the Greek word for
“spirit” is not the same as the word for
“soul.”)
Does conscious life continue for a
person after the spirit leaves the
body?
Ps. 146:4: “His spirit [Hebrew, from ru
′ach] goes out, he goes back to his
ground; in that day his thoughts do
perish.” (NAB, Ro, Yg, and Dy [145:4]
here render ru′ach as “spirit.” Some
translations say “breath.”) (Also Psalm
104:29)here render ru′ach as “spirit.” Some
translations say “breath.”) (Also Psalm
104:29)
“The concept of immortality of soul is a product
of Greek thinking, whereas the hope of a
resurrection belongs to Jewish thought. . . .
Following Alexander’s conquests Judaism
gradually absorbed Greek concepts.”—
Dictionnaire Encyclopédique de la Bible
(Valence, France; 1935), edited by
Alexandre Westphal, Vol. 2, p. 557.
“Immortality of the soul is a Greek notion
formed in ancient mystery cults and
elaborated by the philosopher Plato.”—
Presbyterian Life, May 1, 1970, p. 35.
“Do we believe that there is such a thing
as death? . . . Is it not the separation of soul
and body? And to be dead is the completion
of this; when the soul exists in herself, and
is released from the body and the body is
released from the soul, what is this but
death? . . . And does the soul admit
of death? No. Then the soul is immortal?
Yes.”—Plato’s “Phaedo,” Secs. 64, 105, as
published in Great Books of the
Western World (1952), edited by
R. M. Hutchins, Vol. 7, pp. 223, 245, 246.
“The problem of immortality, we have
seen, engaged the serious attention of the
Babylonian theologians. . . . Neither the
people nor the leaders of religious thought
ever faced the possibility of the total
annihilation of what once was called into
existence. Death was a passage to another
kind of life.”—The Religion of Babylonia and
Assyria (Boston, 1898), M. Jastrow, Jr., p.
556.

OLAADEGBU:
OK.



Adam became a living soul when God gave him the breath of life. (Gen 2:7).k



What separated Adam from animals is the breath of life that created him in the image of God. Animals are not created in the image of God. And as I said, Adam did not only become conscious of himself he also was also conscious of the image of God in him which is the eternal spirit that is capable of having fellowship and communion with his Creator. (Gen 1:26-28.)



God did not breath into the nostrils of the animals like He did with Adam, thus, they were not created in the image of God. Adam was created in God's spiritual image (Gen.1:24-26).



Animals too do have the breath of life (neshama in Hebrew) but are not created in the image of God.

"All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died" (Genesis 7:22).



"Who knows the spirit of man that goes upward, and the spirit of the beast that goes downward to the earth?" (Ecclessiastes 3:21)

spirit is the same word as "breath" and in this sense both humans and animals have "spirit." The respiratory organ stops functioning at death and since animals do not have that eternal entity (image of God) they perish in the ground.



The spirit and soul of man can be seen as two sides of a coin (being two parts of the same coin). The soul goes to where the spirit goes and yet they are separate (1 Thess.5:23; Hebrew 4:12). Heaven or hell as in the OP.



They are not the same but are often used interchangeably in the Scriptures.



Before the fall, Adam could relate to and observe the spirit world as easy as he could observe and relate to the natural/physical world. This could no longer happen after the Word of God severed between the spirit and soul of man. Those doing so today are disobeying God's command and are being deceived by demons into controlling their spirit bodies, such as those who practise astral projections and witchcraft. Today we do not have the conscious awareness of our spiritual bodies just as we do our physical bodies.

When we become born again God activates the link between our spirit and soul only when He chooses to give understanding of the Scriptures, to make our spirits aware of His presence, to give us discerning of the spirit world etc.



Ok.



When you say all souls, does that include animals? If yes, I believe I have answered that question.



If we are submissive to God we would worship Him in spirit and in truth. We would allow God to use our spirits when He needs to not when we need to. God does not want His people to control their spirit bodies as satan wants us to do contrary so as to be open to overwhelming temptations to sin and we will not want to be dependent on Him thus exposing ourselves to the attack of the enemy.

1.my question:
Is Adam a soul or was giving a soul.?


Ur answer:
Adam became a living soul when God gave
him the breath of life. (Gen 2:7).

My response:
I do agree with you , Adam does not have a soul, he was not giving a soul, but rather he is a soul. Adam is a living being(soul) and these came about when his body received the breath of life(spirit).
Adam was made from dust ("And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul" (Genesis 2:7)
Breath of life was giving to Adam WHO IS DUST ( "In the sweat of thy face shall you eat
bread, till you return unto the ground, for out of it were you taken: for dust you are, and unto dust shall you return". Genesis 3:19)became alive, had life through the spirit(breath of life ) that god gave him, and thus became a soul(living being).


2. I asked the question :
Do you have any scriptural statement
that says " the breath of life contains both soul and spirit?

Ur answer:
What separated Adam from animals is the breath of life that created him in the image
of God. Animals are not created in the image of God. And as I said, Adam did not
only become conscious of himself he also was also conscious of the image of God in him which is the eternal spirit that is capable of having fellowship and communion with his Creator. (Gen 1:26-28.)

My response:
Sir, u have not answered my question on if there is any biblical evidence that states that the breath of life contains both the spirit and soul.

Furthermore, what seperated Adam from animals is not the breathe of life as both Adam and the animals both have the same spirit(breathe), both are created from dust and thus both are souls .
(Eccles 3 verse 19:
New International Version
Surely the fate of human beings is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits
them both: As one dies, so dies the other.
All have the same breath; humans have no advantage over animals. Everything is
meaningless.

English Standard Version
For what happens to the children of man and what happens to the beasts is the
same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts, for all is vanity.

New American Standard Bible
For the fate of the sons of men and the fate of beasts is the same. As one dies so dies the other; indeed, they all have the
same breath and there is no advantage for man over beast, for all is vanity.

King James Bible
For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other;
yea, they have all one breath; so that a
man hath no preeminence above a beast:
for all is vanity.)

The breathe of life did not create Adam in the image of god. Adam was created in gods image while he was dust, that he was created in gods image means that Adam had the ability to express gods qualities such as justice, peace, long suffering, mercy, forgiveness, love etc.
We are able to commune with god cus god created Adam with that ability and then imparted the spirit into him to be able to use that ability.an example is when man creates a fan (man) and creates a toaster(beast)both cannot funtion without electricity (spirit)both cannot do each others Job despite being made of same materials and both have electricity.
So the difference between man and beast is not on the spirit, for the spirit in us is not the reason we are created in gods image, but in the process of creation of our physical body, for our body is created in the image of god and not our spirit(breathe).that is why we are encourage to keep our physical body holy .



3. I asked :
What do you mean that the breath of life was giving to animals indirectly. I do not think the bible specifically stated the process of animals becoming souls? (My view is that since animals are also created from dust and are living creatures, then there creation process follows that of the creation process of man. The only difference is that man is
created in gods image )


Ur answer:
God did not breath into the nostrils of the animals like He did with Adam, thus, they
were not created in the image of God.
Adam was created in God's spiritual image
(Gen.1:24-26).


My response:
The bible did not mention the process on how animals came to be living souls , that you relate the difference between man and animals to the spirit they received has been debunked in 2 above cus the bible said that both man and animals have the same spirit. So the spirit they received is not the reason y animals are not created in gods image. so ur statement does not have scriptural backing.
Adam was not created in gods spiritual image, god is a spirit, man is a physical being. Man was created in gods image(spiritual not included).

Man has the same eventuality as animals.(Ecclestiatis 3 vs 20:
King James Bible
All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.)

These brings about further questions for consideration : if man and animals have same spirit, both are from dust, they have same eventuality , does that mean that animals go to abrahams bossom and to hell?.
Note the fact that both are souls.


4. I asked :
If Adam has consciousness because
he had/he is a soul , do animals have consciousness too and y?

U answered:
Animals too do have the breath of life (neshama in Hebrew) but are not created in the image of God.
"All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land,
died " (Genesis 7:22).

My response:
First, my question just needs a yes or no answer before explanation, and you did not state if animals have consciousness or not.
Animals too have consciousness, they move they move, they react, they get hungry, they play, they fight. But there consciousness is different from that of man cus they where not physicaly Created in gods image and thus does not have the thinking faculty that man has.
You mentioned genesis 7:22, does this not give us an idea that god blew the breathe of life into the nostrils of animals too.?

5. I asked:
If animals have souls/ are souls, what
happens to them when they die.

U answered :
"Who knows the spirit of man that goes
upward, and the spirit of the beast that goes
downward to the earth ?" (Ecclessiastes
3:21)
spirit is the same word as "breath" and in
this sense both humans and animals have
"spirit." The respiratory organ stops
functioning at death and since animals do
not have that eternal entity (image of God)
they perish in the ground.

My response:
The bible helps us to answer the question.

Ps. 146:4: “His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts
do perish.”(The Hebrew word here translated “spirit” is a derivative of ru′ach.
Some translators render it “breath.” When that ru′ach, or active life-force, leaves the
body, the person’s thoughts perish; they do not continue in another realm.)
Eccl. 3:19-21: “There is an eventuality as respects the sons of mankind and an
eventuality as respects the beast, and they have the same eventuality. As the one dies,
so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit, so that there is no superiority of the
man over the beast, for everything is vanity.
All are going to one place. They have all come to be from the dust, and they are all
returning to the dust. Who is there knowing the spirit of the sons of mankind, whether it is ascending upward; and the spirit of the beast, whether it is descending downward to the earth?” (Because of the inheritance of sin and death from Adam, humans all die and return to the dust, as animals do. But does each human have a spirit that goes on living as an intelligent personality after it ceases to function in the body? No; Ec 3 verse 19 answers that humans and beasts “all have but one spirit.” Based merely on human observation, no one can authoritatively answer the question raised in Ec 3 verse 21 regarding the spirit. But God’s Word answers that there is nothing that humans have as a result of birth that gives them superiority over beasts when they die.
However, because of God’s merciful provision through Christ, the prospect of living forever has been opened up to humans who exercise faith, but not to animals. For many of mankind, that will be made possible by resurrection, when active life-force from God will invigorate them again.)
Luke 23:46: “Jesus called with a loud voice and said: ‘Father, into your hands I entrust my spirit ’ .When he had said this, he expired.” (Notice that Jesus expired. When his spirit went out he was not on his way to heaven. Not until the
third day from this was Jesus resurrected from the dead. Then, as Acts 1:3, 9 shows, it was 40 more days before he ascended to heaven. So, what is the meaning of what Jesus said at the time of his death? He was saying that he knew that, when he died, his future life prospects rested entirely with God.


6. I asked:
So if the spirit (breath )returns to God
when Adam died and the body returns to
the ground where it came from , where
does the soul go, what happens to it after
death?


U answered:
The spirit and soul of man can be seen as two sides of a coin (being two parts of the
same coin). The soul goes to where the
spirit goes and yet they are separate (1
Thess.5:23; Hebrew 4:12). Heaven or hell
as in the OP.

My response: the bible does not state that the soul and spirit are two sides of the same coin .
The bible explains what the soul is, it also explains what d spirit is ,they are two different things entirely.
(1 thess 5: 23
King James Bible
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.)
That scripture did not state spirit and soul being of the same coin.
(heb 4:12:
King James Bible
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.)
Soul is a combination of d spirit and flesh, therefore spirit can be divided/removed from the soul. That soul is another side of the spirit is wrong analysis.

I asked you:
7. U stated that adam and his
descendants lost the means to walk with
God or have conversations with God due
to Adams sin. And I ask , what's the
difference between Adams conversation /
walking with God /hearing Gods voice
communicating with god and his
descendants ability to do same. What is
it that Adam did that any of his
descendants could/did not do?

U answered:
Before the fall, Adam could relate to and
observe the spirit world as easy as he could observe and relate to the natural/ physical world. This could no longer happen after the Word of God severed between the spirit and soul of man. Those doing so today are disobeying God's command and are being deceived by demons into controlling their spirit bodies, such as those who practise astral projections and witchcraft. Today we do not have the conscious awareness of our spiritual bodies just as we do our physical bodies.
When we become born again God activates
the link between our spirit and soul only
when He chooses to give understanding of
the Scriptures, to make our spirits aware of
His presence, to give us discerning of the
spirit world etc.


My response:
sir , u explanation shows that all Adam could do before he sinned is what his descendants can also do .
Adam can call god and talk to him, his descendants too could do that .
Adam can see spirit creatures, his descendants too could do that .
The bible did not say that moses had holy spirit in him before he could see the burning bush. Cain was not on gods good books , but he still had conversation with god .
Remember the reason I asked this question was based on ur statement that Adams descendants lost the ability to do the things that Adam did due to his sin .
Moreover, pls can u state in the scriture where Adam or his descendants had a spiritual body?


8. I asked u:

You stated what happens to the spirit
when man dies.
You did not state what happens to the
body and soul here (though u have stated
what happens to the body earlier and I
agree with u)
what happens to all soul when they die.?

U answered :
When you say all souls, does that include
animals? If yes, I believe I have answered
that question.

My response :
No sir, u have not answered the questions in number 8 .

I asked:
9. You stated that the soul
(consciousness control the spirit and body. Does/can the body or spirit control
our soul(consciousness)?
Pls explain further on these nine
questions using the scriptures.


U answered:
If we are submissive to God we would
worship Him in spirit and in truth. We would
allow God to use our spirits when He needs
to not when we need to. God does not want
His people to control their spirit bodies as
satan wants us to do contrary so as to be
open to overwhelming temptations to sin
and we will not want to be dependent on
Him thus exposing ourselves to the attack
of the enemy.

My response: this is supposed to be a yes or no answer the followed by explanation.
From ur answer I deduce that the flesh can control the soul.

paulGrundy:
Who are you refering to? Me or Yooguyz?

One or the two of you, or same person of you( no mind my English) should pls answer my questions na .
I've asked the questions twice now and no response.

Yooguyz:
It seems like its a disease among JW's to tell lies from dolphinbrain to BERNIMORE to honeychild to edogho. Lies! Anyway am not suprised their magazine itself is filled with lies.


You initially claimed that your magazine is out of print he proved it to your by showing you from your website, now instead of clarifying the contents of your literature, you are calling him a bad person.

Guilty conscience at work.

Honestly you need to get your head examined!!!

It is you that needs serious examination.
Y dnt u first answer the questions I asked since you have now turned to his voltron.
Y did he say that it is not out of print but they have changed the name. What does he mean by that .? Is he saying the they are presently printing 2 books with different names but same content.

Second question is most important, who owns the first website he posted.?
Is it the watchtower that owns the two websites. ?
If guilty conscience is to worry anyone , it is you! , the left hand man of the impersonator that has no conscience

paulGrundy:
I have a link to your official website jw.org that shows the list of books produced by the watchtower both in and out of print.

See if you lie!! I'll expose you right now!

[size=15pt]The watchtower literature I quoted from» kingdom ministry- is not out of print. The name has been changed to » shepherd the flock of God, elders manual.

its either you are lieing for the truth or you ignorantely jumped into conclusion[/size]

.
http://watchtowerbooksstore.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=185

http://www.jw.org/en/publications/kingdom-ministry/

You are showing everyone who u really are.
U said it is not out or print,then u said they have changed the name. Wow! Are u now saying they print 2 books with different names but same content. ?

The first website u posted, who does it belong to , the watchtower or bad people like u .

paulGrundy:
My thoughts doesn't matter, what matters is the unbaised judgement of the observers after comparing what the watchtower said in the OP, and indigene's quote.

I've told u to always be truthful with ur statements. Before u say observers have to judge , allow them to see the source of ur info . Post the source so that they will be sure u are telling the truth.
Observers has seen that some of ur statements are false, hence d need for prove.
What I'm I saying sef, even you , as a person is falsehood personified.!!

Pity, maybe he is ashamed of who he really is . A person that impersonate is either not proud of his self or has an ulterior, mischivious motive.
He is worse than a fraudster cus he is impersonating on issues that has to do with worship.
He stole not only d name, but the life, wife, family and child of the real paul grundy. the poor child no know say he get one fake papa for nairaland so .
My advice to him is to stop the Impersonation, apologize to nairalanders and get a better life, one that he will be proud of.
If he does not want people to know him, he can be anonymous, not posting his real name or picture, but to try to be someone u re not is really degrading.

paulGrundy:
What do you want me to say?

Say what is on ur mind concerning the thread u posted, and the reply u got.

indigene:
@paulGrundy. Are you aware that Jehovah's witnesses do not condone serious wrong doings within their fold, where other religion frown at wrong doings and same tolerates them. Jehovah's witnesses repudiate sins and the cause that might lead to it.
They are the only among Christian churches within my knowledge that have internal cleansing of unrepentant sinners, in line with 1Corinthians 5vs 9-13, simply put they excommunicated any of their members, no matter high placed he or she is, out of their midst.
Step 1: On the Issue of child abuse or molestation: Congregation Discipline

Jehovah's Witnesses have a disciplinary system that applies to all congregation members who commit child abuse, rather than only to members in positions of authority.[13] Their policy states that child sex victims be immediately protected from further abuse, and that abusers be prevented from finding additional victims.[14] If allegations of child abuse are deemed to have a sound basis, an internal judicial committee is formed, and the accused individual is relieved of any positions of responsibility in the congregation. Anyone found to have sexually molested a child and failing to demonstrate repentance is to be disfellowshipped from the congregation.[15] If an accused individual denies wrongdoing, but later due to evidence presented in a court of law, it is proven that he or she was involved in child abuse, the individual is disfellowshipped.
Step:2Reproof and restrictions

An abuser who is judged repentant by a committee of elders is given a 'public reproof', wherein it is announced to the congregation that the named individual "has been reproved", though the nature of their crime is not stated.[15] Some time later, a talk is given to the congregation, discussing the type of sin and the need to be on guard against it; the reproved individual is not named in connection with this talk.[16] For a considerable period of time, a reproved individual is not permitted to participate in meetings by commenting in group discussions or making presentations from the platform.[17] They are immediately debarred from serving in any appointed position in the congregation, usually for life. A fax sent by Jehovah's Witnesses' Office of Public Information to the producers of the BBC's Panorama television program stated that at least twenty years must have passed before an individual who committed an act of child sex abuse could even be considered for appointment to a responsible position in the congregation, if ever.[18]

Former child molesters, including those who molested children before becoming Jehovah's Witnesses, those eventually reinstated into the congregation after being disfellowshipped, and those who were deemed repentant, are subject to a number of restrictions, which normally remain in place permanently. A 1997 Watchtower article stated: "For the protection of our children, a man known to have been a child molester does not qualify for a responsible position in the congregation. Moreover, he cannot be a pioneer or serve in any other special, full-time service."[19][20] Former sex offenders may not offer public prayers, read paragraphs during congregation studies, or be given even minor responsibilities in the congregation, such as handling microphones or distributing literature in the Kingdom Hall, and the person's home may not usually be used for congregation meetings.[21] According to the Watch Tower Society spokesman, J. R. Brown, sex offenders are not permitted to participate in the congregation's house-to-house preaching, unless accompanied by a responsible adult.[22] Commenting on the effect of these restrictions, Jehovah's Witnesses' legal representative, Mario Moreno, stated that these restrictions alert members that the individual "lacks spiritual maturity."[23]

If a former child abuser moves to another congregation, elders from the previous congregation must send a letter to the body of elders in the new congregation, outlining the offender's background[24] and whether the abuser is still under the 'restricted privileges'. Previous communication from the organization's Branch Office regarding the abuser is not forwarded to the new congregation.[25] Other members of the new congregation are not formally made aware of the abuser's past.
Step 3: On the Book you misapplied or failed to understand its context;
Positions of responsibility

When a member is recommended for a position of responsibility such as elder or ministerial servant, the individual is asked directly whether he has ever committed child sexual abuse; if it is revealed that he has, the proposed appointment is annulled and the branch office is advised.[26] If an appointed individual later admits to having committed abuse, the Watch Tower Society's policy requires that the individual be removed from their position. The 1972 book, Organization for Kingdom-Preaching and Disciple-Making, stated:


If a person was serving as an elder or a ministerial servant when he committed a serious wrong, even though it was some years ago, he bears a degree of reprehensibility, for he continued to serve in that position though knowing that he had, for the time at least, disqualified himself, not being then "free from accusation." (1 Tim. 3:2, 10; Titus 1:6,7) He should have informed the judicial committee that he did not adhere to the requirements and should have stepped down from his position. In view of his failure to do this at that time, he would now be removed from that position.

In October 1972 the newsletter, Our Kingdom Ministry, explained that "some years ago" meant "not the exact number of years, but more like two or three years", in contrast to actions committed "many years ago ... into the distant past."[27] This position was further clarified in 1991 to exclude individuals involved in child sex abuse.[citation needed] The January 1, 1997 issue of The Watchtower stated, "For the protection of our children, a man known to have been a child molester does not qualify for a responsible position in the congregation. Moreover, he cannot be a pioneer or serve in any other special, full-time service."[28] During the 2005 Kingdom Ministry School, it was stated that hidden acts of "porneia" (sexual sins) would require an internal judicial committee, and if these involved children, would be treated as child sex abuse.[citation needed]

In 2010, the Watch Tower Society clarified how its policy is applied where a member in a position of authority is learned to have committed serious wrongdoing in the distant past, "more than a few years ago." The elders' handbook "Shepherd the Flock of God" explained that such a person might be allowed to remain in their position if "he has been serving faithfully for many years, has evidence of God's blessing, and has the respect of the congregation," noting that, "the nature of the sin may reflect greatly on his qualifications to serve. For example, the sin may involve past child abuse, and this would likely disqualify him for many years." It added, "If the wrongdoing occurred within the past few years while he was serving as an elder or a ministerial servant, he is disqualified from serving as such" (emphasis in original).[29
Step 4: To state how seriously Jehovah's witnesses organization view child molestation
Read: Reporting to civil authorities-

A press release issued in 2003 by Jehovah's Witnesses' Office of Public Information stated: "The elders may be required by law to report even uncorroborated or unsubstantiated allegations to the authorities. If so, we expect the elders to comply."[30] The Watchtower magazine has outlined the following policy: "Depending on the law of the land where he lives, the molester may well have to serve a prison term or face other sanctions from the State. The congregation will not protect him from this."[31] A 2002 memo to all congregations stated: "Our position is that secular authorities deal with crime while elders deal with sin."[2] Even where there is no mandatory reporting requirement, victims or others having knowledge of an incident of sexual abuse must not be discouraged from reporting it.[32]

The New York Times commented: "The shape of the scandal [in Jehovah's Witnesses] is far different than in the Catholic church, where most of the people accused of abuse are priests and a vast majority of the victims were boys and young men. In the Jehovah's Witnesses, where congregations are often collections of extended families and church elders are chosen from among the laypeople, some of those accused are elders, but most are congregation members. The victims who have stepped forward are mostly girls and young women, and many accusations involve incest."[33]

Congregation elders are required to first contact the organization's legal department in cases of alleged abuse to establish whether there is a legal duty to report the sex crime to the civil authorities or not.[34] In Canada, elders have been advised: "There is a duty to report when one has reasonable and probable grounds to believe that there is abuse or a substantial risk of abuse and parents have failed to protect the child. The report shall be made forthwith to the local child welfare authorities. […] Elders must be aware, however, that once they have knowledge, they have an obligation. They cannot just hope that someone else will report. They must follow through quickly, and be sure that it is done."[35]

The elders' manual, Pay Attention to Yourselves and to All the Flock, states: "Though it is not the responsibility of the Christian congregation to enforce Caesar's laws, the very nature of some crimes demands that they be reported to secular authorities."[36] A 1995 memo to elders stated: "Many states make it mandatory that elders report an accusation to the proper authorities but other states do not. In those states where such is required, oftentimes the parent, the guardian, or the accused person himself can do the reporting."[37] This was publicized by 1997.[38]

In 2000, elders in Great Britain were instructed: "The elder approached must encourage the complainant to consider his or her responsibility to report the matter to the authorities without delay and should also explain that he himself might have a duty to report the matter to the proper authorities," and that "all in the Christian congregation will want to consider their personal and moral responsibility to alert the appropriate authorities in cases where a serious criminal offense of this type has been committed, or there exists a risk that one may be committed."

Jehovah's witnesses organization distaste evil, sins, in all its shades and colors, the fact showed that most of their unrepentant members who are removed, bears king size grudges for the scriptural disgrace

@paulgrundy , pls reply to the explaination .

BERNIMOORE:
This thread coded (D)*

There is a moniker(nairaland ID username) registered on the 24th of september 2014 on nairaland.com,
He claimed to be 'paulgrundy' and further claim to own a website named jwfacts.com that the link appears next here http://jwfacts.com/watchtower/experiences/paul-grundy.php

on this jwfacts link above, the first page there contained 'my story' by paulgrundy and that page was duplicated and lifted on to nairaland thread 'word for word' https://www.nairaland.com/1918340/story-paul-grundy and a picture of paulgrundy and his son was lifted alongside and pasted to create a profile of the nairaland thread

But as time goes on this Nairaland paulgrundy betrayed exhibits poor knowledge of whom he 'fake to be' on nairaland and further expose himself with explicit proofs that he is 'not' the jwfacts.com paulgrundy

my next refereces to paulgrundy will refer to nairaland paulgrundy now as (impersonator)* and paulgrundy jwfacts(original)

On the 'my story links' (both nairaland and jwfacts.com) above, the opening sentence reads;

paulgrundy jwfacts submissions states;

D(1) ''I am the author of jwfacts.com and here is my story: [size=14pt]I was raised a Jehovah's Witness by loving parents[/size]''. of jwfacts paulgrundy impersonator on nairaland

and further

D(2)............. and finally being disfellowshipped at 36. http://jwfacts.com/watchtower/experiences/personal-files-privacy-act-1988.php

now compare Nairaland impersonator's paulgrundy statement as to his background as a jehovahs witnesses on this link https://www.nairaland.com/1922670/18-facts-may-not-know/3



D(2*)a clear case of poor knowledge and application of claim established above


1, in this thread, the real 'JWfacts paulgrundy' http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/malawi-mexico-oath-allegiance.php talks about passport application in bold (of which i have proved the forgery)


but 'nairaland impersonator' fails to see 'application' and mistake it for a 'passport card'
he posted this as a topic using his paulgrundy ID

https://www.nairaland.com/1939359/intl-passport-jw-past-presidents

is application form same as passport itself?
he could not comprehend paulgrundy and fumbled

2, in this thread https://www.nairaland.com/1918340/story-paul-grundy this 'nairaland impersonator' could not comprehend 'JWfacts paulgrundy's story as he was corrected by 'one' Honeychild of which he could not save face about the embarasement but bow-out thanking honeychild saying;

Ok ok seen it, thanks for the correction

and lastly despite the fact that paulgrundy jwfacts(original) documented where he had lived before few but to mention Australia, or city like sydney parramatta or places like bradburry and hobert in his lifetimes, he never metioned ever lived in Nigeria before talkless of learning our language

but here our own Nairaland paulgrundy impersonator 'blows pidgin' using his paulgrundy moniker

but forgot that on his profile he post a white man picture there that have never lived in Nigeria before https://www.nairaland.com/1961940/oluwaseun-osewa-worth-over-6million#27370695


So all the gra gra and [size=14pt]over sabi[/size] wey Mynd44 dey do na for nothing!

Am beginning to see sense in Yungwizzy's comment.

Its not easy to be an impersonator. One day one day wind go blow and fowl Yansh go show. It has finally happened now.
Once told him that if he feels the need to attack other peoples beliefs , he should be truthful about it and not peddle false info. Little did I know that his verry existence is falsehood itself. No wonder he runs away from all his threads when being exposed.

habiolah:
this was what I said:
when a man dies, he remains in a non conscious state: the spirit is inactive (more like when you sleep soundly and have no dreams - you simply wake up, and its already morning) so his soul is not expressed.

when Jesus returns, the Bible says the dead in Christ shall rise first (1Corinthians 15); the spirit wakes up from its 'deep sleep', with a glorified body. Now that the spirit is awake, the soul becomes expressive once again - and wherever the spirit goes, the soul goes with it; either to be with God or to be separated from God.
because the soul is being expressed, man will be capable of joy, weeping, worship etc even after he leaves this physical body (like lazarus and the rich fellow)


on the animal part, give me sometime: will be back.

Let me rephrase.
when a man dies , his body goes to the ground,yes or no?
When a man dies his spirit and soul (expression , thoughts , emotion) goes to god.yes or no.? If no , what bible prove do u have?
When a man dies , his thoughts, thinking , emotions siezes. (his soulish)yes or no ?
When a man dies his memory still exist, and while dead he can remember his past.yes or no?
according to u again, when lazarus died , he had expressions, thoughts , emotions which are not part of memory but are events after his death. Yes or no?



The memory and esspressions , thoughts that he had was not in heaven where the spirit went but in hell where he went after he died . And u said the soul goes where the spirit goes.
Where is abrahams bossom?

Ill definitely wait for the animal part.

habiolah:
questions 1 - 5 have been answered in the previous posts.

6. The body cannot control the soul (the flesh and the body are not the same). I do not buy the idea of using the word control: the spirit is expressed as the soul and through the body.

7. This should be clear by now from my initial posts.

8. Man is a spirit. He has the Holy Spirit, if he is born again. But he himself was created a spirit.

9. the soul is where you think, where you feel, where you decide etc. so long as the spirit remains in the body, there the soul is present. A smile for example is more than shinning your teeth; which is the best that the body can do: there is a soulish radiance behind the teeth, which qualifies it to be a smile: that is the expression of the spirit man (it is an expression of the soul: so sometimes you can differentiate between someone who is smiling because he loves you and someone who is smiling because he is about to do mischief - the muscles in his face performs the same exercise)

the last part of your post confuses me actually...

6. Flesh is not the body? Pls explain further.

7. U did not answer sir, u stated that if I think so yes , if I dnt think so no. Then I ask, what do you think.?

8. Man is not a spirit, he has a spirit.

9 sir if man does not have thought, does it mean he has no soul? Yes or no.with possible explanation

habiolah:
question 1 has been answered in the previous post

2. Just like I said, the soul is the personality of the spirit. I didn't say all spirits will go to God: I was basically referring to the spirit of a child of God. There will be spirits that will go to hell, and they shall have feelings, thoughts etc (I already mentioned that these are the expressions of the person (spirit) the bringing together of all those expressions is called the soul) so the spirit who goes to hell shall have his soul present with him in hell (if a man leaves Nigeria and goes to Madagascar, his personality will remain, with him.

3. I believe I explained in the previous post.

4. has been addressed too. it is an entity if you think the personality of a man is an entity on its own different from the man. It is not an entity if you think a man's personality is not a different entity from the man.

5. The soul also expresses the characters of the body, but only so long as the body is possessed by a spirit. The soul is actually the spirit's property; if the spirit is in a body, then both spirit and body can be expressed as the soul. The moment that the spirit leaves the body though, the body can no longer express itself as a being(soul). so, even though certain part of a dead man's body can still be biologically useful moments after e dies, that man is incapable of love, smile or hate anymore since the spirit is gone, with its medium of expression(soul).

2. As I stated in the previous post, the post is not a personality but rather the person itself .that y he is called a person , cus he is a personality and expreeses that personality with the help of the life force god gave him, if through injury or other failures of his body , his life force (spirit )leaves him, he will not have the ability to esspress such personality physically again.

All spirit goes back to god who gave it, none goes to hell. Ecclestiatis 12.7.



3.ok

4. What do u think?

5. When man dies , the spirit(life force) and body seperate, the man is no longer a soul because a spirit must be in a body (either physical or spiritual) before soul can exist. That's y d bible says that when a man dies , he has no more thought or feeling or memory.

When a man dies, any biological use of his body means that that part of the body used is either still alive(has spark/contains life/spitir)or its a form of dust being used on another dust, but this time the other dust still has life that it can give to that dust.

The soul is not the spirit property as explained earlier.
The soul (being an entity)does not leave the body after death and no where is that stated in the bible . The bible rather tells us that his thoughts do perish when man diess.

habiolah:
I'm on mobile, really difficult typing long.

Expressive being is the same as living being in my post. The personality of an individual is made up of a combination of factors: character, vies about life, religious convictions etc. Now there is the man himself, then he has his personality (identical twins may have completely different personalities): now, wherever a particular man is, his personality can be said to be present (even though the man is the entity, and his personality is just an expression of the man). Man is a spirit (John 4:23-24 says God is a Spirit. I'm sure you know that man was fashioned like God); but the soul, just like the personality in my man-personality illustration, is an expression of the Spirit (the moment the spirit became expressed in Adam, he was called a living being (soul): just as a man's personality will be expressed wherever the man is, the Soul will be expressed wherever the spirit is.




1. I believe this question has been answered above. Heb 4:12 says that only God's word can decipher between the two(because they are very closely knitted) but like we saw in Genesis, the Spirit was breathe into the clay, and the moment he begins to live(express), he was called a living being(soul).
so, if we can call the personality of a man a separate entity from the man who has the personality, then we can call the soul a different entity from the spirit and vice versa.

I'll continue...

Thanks for ur post
On question 1. The question I asked was based on ur statement that soul and spirit are not exactly the same. To me, its either they are the same or not . That inserting. "not exactly is a bit confusing.

Now ,on what u posted.this are my views .
1. When god created Adam , the bible stated that he MADE him out of dust/clay and breathed into his nostril the breath of life/spirit/life force/spark. And thus man became a living soul(can express itself and perform actions based on thoughts) . Man (Adam) did not have a soul but became one through the combination of the life force and his body.
The personalities that u refer to as soul are not under the spirit bit rather under the control of the body.
Man is not born with personality but develops it as he grows older. The development of a mans personality is dependent on his DNA (physical body), what he hears with his ears (physical body) what he seeswith his eyes(physical body)what he smells(nose ) what he eats, and also what he feels whit his skin .
After that his personality is also been determined by emotions and thoughts .our thoughts and emotions are also being controlled/ determined by our physical body (our brain , honones and other chemicals). Different parts of our brain control different parts of our behavior or response and any damage or alterations to any part of the brain control or affect our pasonality.
To buttress this points ill go medical.
A mad mans thoughts is different from a sane mans. Yet his thought process can be made sane with drugs and other physical treatment to his body. Likewise a sane man can be made mad through physical use of drugs and can be made to behave and act in ways contrary to his personality.
The release of several hormones in our body determines our sexual nature and libido. Our moods and our prefrences.

So my assertion is that it is man itself that is his own soul, and it came about because because the spirit/life force was giving to his physical body to enable him do certail things.


Man is not a spirit .

Man was not made in gods form but in his image, meaning that God enables man to be able to exhibit godly traits such as love, mercy, peace and justice.that is the difference between us and animals as the bible helps us to know that that animals are souls too and they have the same spirit as us humans.

Another reason y I believe that man is not a spirit ,but has a spirit is that God stated to Adam what he was when he passed judgement on him. God told Adam that he is dust . And when he turned to dust, the spirit returned to God who gave it..

habiolah:
I'm on mobile, really difficult typing long.

Expressive being is the same as living being in my post. The personality of an individual is made up of a combination of factors: character, vies about life, religious convictions etc. Now there is the man himself, then he has his personality (identical twins may have completely different personalities): now, wherever a particular man is, his personality can be said to be present (even though the man is the entity, and his personality is just an expression of the man). Man is a spirit (John 4:23-24 says God is a Spirit. I'm sure you know that man was fashioned like God); but the soul, just like the personality in my man-personality illustration, is an expression of the Spirit (the moment the spirit became expressed in Adam, he was called a living being (soul): just as a man's personality will be expressed wherever the man is, the Soul will be expressed wherever the spirit is.




1. I believe this question has been answered above. Heb 4:12 says that only God's word can decipher between the two(because they are very closely knitted) but like we saw in Genesis, the Spirit was breathe into the clay, and the moment he begins to live(express), he was called a living being(soul).
so, if we can call the personality of a man a separate entity from the man who has the personality, then we can call the soul a different entity from the spirit and vice versa.

I'll continue...

Thanks for ur post
On question 1. The question I asked was based on ur statement that soul and spirit are not exactly the same. To me, its either they are the same or not . That inserting. "not exactly is a bit confusing.

Now ,on what u posted.this are my views .
1. When god created Adam , the bible stated that he MADE him out of dust/clay and breathed into his nostril the breath of life/spirit/life force/spark. And thus man became a living soul(can express itself and perform actions based on thoughts) . Man (Adam) did not have a soul but became one through the combination of the life force and his body.
The personalities that u refer to as soul are not under the spirit bit rather under the control of the body.
Man is not born with personality but develops it as he grows older. The development of a mans personality is dependent on his DNA (physical body), what he hears with his ears (physical body) what he seeswith his eyes(physical body)what he smells(nose ) what he eats, and also what he feels whit his skin .
After that his personality is also been determined by emotions and thoughts .our thoughts and emotions are also being controlled/ determined by our physical body (our brain , honones and other chemicals). Different parts of our brain control different parts of our behavior or response and any damage or alterations to any part of the brain control or affect our pasonality.
To buttress this points ill go medical.
A mad mans thoughts is different from a sane mans. Yet his thought process can be made sane with drugs and other physical treatment to his body. Likewise a sane man can be made mad through physical use of drugs and can be made to behave and act in ways contrary to his personality.
The release of several hormones in our body determines our sexual nature and libido. Our moods and our prefrences.

So my assertion is that it is man itself that is his own soul, and it came about because because the spirit/life force was giving to his physical body to enable him do certail things.


Man is not a spirit .

Man was not made in gods form but in his image, meaning that God enables man to be able to exhibit godly traits such as love, mercy, peace and justice.that is the difference between us and animals as the bible helps us to know that

paulGrundy:
I can see that you are still pained that I did not change the title of my thread to suit your prejudiced mind.

The title still remains:

masturbation leads to homosexuality

Get over it!

You expect me to show you (a jehovahs witness) the source of your (jehovahs witness) literature

Its like a farmer asking his neighbour to show him where he kept his cutlass.

The quotes in my thread is refrenced if your were honest, you would have gone to verify them @ wol.jw.org.

But then I can see that you are in the mood to derail the thread, I'll allow you to, because am in a humourous mood.

Let the fiasco begin! Call BERNIMORE/CANTICLES to make it more interesting.

Tag: yooguyz

First of all, I'm not pained by wateva u do on NL, wateva u door refuse to do makes me and others reading ur thread have a better idea of ur personality and who u re as a person. This helps them in their level of interest and direction they will use to view ur thread.

To me, it is bad when u twist the words of others behind there back, and tell others that they said something they did not say. It only shows honest hearted individuals that ur method is to use lies to achieve ur sinister motives.

On the issue of u posting evidence on these thread.
U take some one to the courth of public opinion, u accused someone of writing a letter, u accuse someone of making false statement, and u refuse to bring evidence of such letter/ statement.
My dear sir, u case will be thrown out and u will be seen in the eyes of all as an inserious fellow.
It is u that will prove such statements where true and if u can't post evidence to that , then I can't discuss on the issue.


If u can't post it because of me, post it because of others who are reading ur thread. At least they deserve it.
Post a link or paste a picture for others to see that what u are saying is true, then everyone can discuss on what is being said.

habiolah:
I do believe that the Spirit and the soul are very closely knitted; even though they are not exactly the same. The soul, I believe, is present wherever the spirit is.

First, man became an expressive being because of the breathe(spirit) of life that the body received from God. When the spirit is expressed, it is soulish. The soul is not particularly a different entity on its own: it is the character (or expression) of the Spirit.

As you can clearly read in Gen 2:7; he became an expressive or living person (NLT) when the breath (spirit as Joagbaje has explained).

The Soul is the expression seen through the Will (judgement), Mind (intellect) and emotions: it is the expression of the Person, who is a spirit.

What happens when a man dies:

The body is sown into the ground as a seed which shall have its harvest with the coming of Christ (1Corin 15:35-44); We shall rise to meet Christ, whether asleep or in the body, with a spiritual body. This corruptible would have put on incorruptibility (Rom 8:23).

The soul, being the expression of the spirit will be with the spirit wherever it is. This is the reason that we shall have memories even then.

Even though the Spirit (and by extension the Soul) are in a state of non-consciousness when a man dies(Ecclesiastes 9:5-6; note that the things mentioned are characters of the Spirit, which are soulish), but when Jesus comes, the Spirit will return unto God, along with its character (expressions), called the soul.

This was why Abraham, Lazarus and the Rich man could all remember (memory) the events of their past life.

*The man who remains separated from God for all eternity will remember all the opportunities that he passed to make Jesus Christ the Lord of his life.

*I really don't enjoy typing for so long, but decided to do peradventure I may shed some more light on this discussion. please read the scriptures quoted so I would not have to repeat what has been said, in case you want to ask questions.*

Blessings.

Thanks for the post.
I do not understand some of the word(s) u used like "expressive being", "spirit being expressed" and "soulish"
I do wish u could have helped better by answering my questions in the same format I asked them, so that I wunt get lost in the understanding of what u re trying to tell me.
Ur post thus thrws up the following statement and questions.

1.U said "I do believe that the Spirit and the soul are very closely knitted; even though they are not exactly the same. The soul, I believe, is present wherever the spirit is."

What do u mean by they are not exactly the same?its either they are the same or not.

2. If the soul is present wherever the spirit is, is there biblical prove to that. ? If the spirit goes back to God in heaven when man dies, does the soul go with it to heaven.?

3. Pls what do u mean by expressive being, spirit being expressed and soulish.

4. What do you mean when used the word "not a particular entity on its own " ? Its either an entity on its own or its not an entity on its own, the word particular is confusing.

5 u said the soul is a character expression of the spirit. is it not a character expression of the body?

6 . What influences what and how, can the body influece/ control the soul or spirit, or spirit control soul and body or soul control spirit and body.
7. U said the soul is an expression , are u therefore saying that the soul is not an entity?
8 u said it's an expression of a person who is a spirit. I thought the initial agreement was that man has , and not is, a spirit.

9. If man does not have thought, does it mean he has no soul?

Then this is where it gets more confusing.

When a man dies , his body goes to the ground .
When a man dies his spirit and soul (expression , thoughts , emotion) goes to god.
When a man dies , his thoughts, thinking , emotions siezes. (his soulish)
When a man dies his memory still exist.
But according to u again, when lazarus died , he had expressions, thoughts , emotions which are not part of memory but are events after his death.
The memory and esspressions , thoughts that he had was not in heaven where the spirit went but in hell where he went after he died . And u said the soul goes where the spirit goes.
Can u now see where I'm so confused about ur post?

And not to forget, do animals have the soulish wateva? Does thete soul go wherever the spirit goes? Does it have momory?