₦airaland Forum

I had what I would call a very successful response to a thread I opened over a week ago to the subject of Tithing: https://www.nairaland.com/1239719/questions-frosbel-tithing
I wish to extend the discourse to not just whether tithing is right or wrong but it's IMPLICATION. Jesus said that the hallmark of a false/true prophet is by the fruit he/she bears. What has tithing resulted to in our churches? And for the Churches where the people do not tithe, do we see this same trend? I think this discourse will further put an end to the argument of those who support tithing.

1. The Prosperity Gospel: Virtually all, or better still, most, of the churches that preach tithe also support its variant A HEALTH AND WEALTH GOSPEL. This gospel does not make Jesus Lord, rather it teaches that there is a BLESSING Christians must seek after. THE BLESSING IS THE GOD(that is why Malachi 3:10 gets their attention). Forgetting Eph 1:3 that says we are blessed (already) in Christ Jesus. They undermine the trust of the gospel of the new testament, which is to clearly show Jesus as Crucified and to invite a sinful and dying world to look at him and be saved. Rather these people teach a gospel of well being and try to back it up with signs and wonders following. Cashing in on a gullible society that is ravaged by poverty and sickness. A careful study of the New Testament shows clearly that this is not the core gospel that Jesus and his apostle taught. It is a false gospel taught by false prophets, who feed on the gullibility of people to enrich themselves. And lately, in Nigeria, to impoverish the nation further.
2. Re-enacting the Law: Tithing brings back the Levithical priesthood. While pro tithers teach that they are following the example of Abraham, who GAVE tithe, what these people teach is that people should PAY tithe. By using that word. PAY, they show that tithing is an obligation that must be followed and at the end their is a presthood to be sustained thereby. From my understanding on tithing some people pay their tithe directly to the Pastor of the church, who keeps it along with his salary. Others pay it with church offering to the church's general account. Whichever way, the tithe shows a restoration of a levithical priesthood that Jesus death had abolished and has made every Christian kings and preists unto our God. It also restores the teaching of the law: where christians cannot distinguish between the law and grace. A point of distincion Paul emphized on.
3. Undermining the Doctrine of Grace: The theology of Paul was a given revelation to him to help Church age believers to grow in. And it is apparent that it is not to be added to or subtracted from. Jesus did not teach this theology because he was born subject to the law. From Peter's testimony in 2Peter, it is apparent other apostles endorsed Paul's teaching on the doctrine of grace, Act20. When pro tithers encourage this practice, they discourage a proper study and understanding into the mind and practice of the gospel that Paul taught. Jesus teachings covered the days of the law (under which he was born); church age and the millenium, but paul taught how the church must function mostly in the church age. Beginning with the doctrine on Justification by Faith, Sanctification and Holiness, Gifting of the Spirit, etc. You will notice that most of our pro tithe churches know little or nothing about these great doctrinal position that were re-discovered during the Reformation.
4. Teaching New Age doctrine: In these pro tithe church you hear things like Motivational Speaking; Success Tips and Teachings; Downright extra biblical philosophies; re-discovered Christian Science theologies, etc. The greatest evil of these teachers is the gradual undermining of the person of Jesus and what he can do, to the teaching of man and the can-do spirit in him.

I open this thread not for folks to argue for or against tithing (though one cannot stop that outrightly) but for those like me who are against it to tell every one the FRUIT of tithing and for those who would learn to desist from it.
Also the new call by FROSBEL to have leaflet written against tithing is a welcome idea but it must not go in the place of the error of the tithers. We must show the people the evil of tithing (ie it's implication) and then we must tell them of the real Savior, Jesus the Christ.

One good way to commend our religion to those who are in doubt is to make it relevant to the ordinary man on the street. The nation's of Europe groped in darkness until the protestant revolution help liberate men's mind and then we had the renaissance and the industrial revolution.
Nigeria is on the brinks and the ordinary is asking for solutions to
1. Hunger and unemployment
2. Boko Haram and the general insecurity
3. Corruption at the sit of government and even in private sector
4. Tribalism and religiousity
5. General distrust and anger.

Forgive my trying to bring politics here but theologians will remain in their own climes, forever tearing down at each other's English. How does this translate to general national development?

Goshen, ideally there shouldn't be any more question to be answered. Gary Arnold gave a brilliant exposition on this matter on his website www.tithing101.com
Nonetheless the old judaistic legalism that Paul fought against with the circumcision is what has reared its ugly head with the pro-tithers. Unfortunately their pride will not allow them see.
THERE ARE NO NEW TRICKS IN SATAN'S BAG. If it is not Roman catholicism, it is a bunch of tithing Pentecostals.
I am done with this thread. My questions are answered.

A Muslim colleague of mine told me of how a very junior staff of ours who earns about N8000 was telling her 'now I must remove my tithe before spending a
thing...' She was like, how much do you earn and you must again remove a tithe. brainwashing. The same junior colleague comes to me for N200 once in a while when she is in a fix. she is probably close to fifty, has tithed maybe all of her
life, but nothing to show for it. GOD IS NOT WICKED. It is either we
don't understand his word, we are being deceived or we are just utter stu-pid.

[quote
author=garyarnold]Blessings pour out to those who tithe from their
income and to those who do not tithe. One does not get blessed because
they "tithe."

If you had to "tithe" in order for blessings to pour out, why do
non-tithers get the same blessings as so-called "tithers?" What about
all the so-called "tithers" who can barely make it from paycheck to
paycheck? Or those so-called "tithers" who are deeply in debt?

My personal experience has been that non-tithers are more generous that
"tithers." So-called "tithers" think that ten percent belongs to God
and the other 90% is theirs to do as they please. That's not New
Testament teaching at all.

I have never tithed in my life, yet I have been blessed with a house
that I paid cash for, a luxury SUV that I paid cash for, absolutely NO
debts, money in the bank, and excellent health, and was able to retire
19 years ago at the age of 50 with NO DEBT. Being SPIRIT LED instead of
10% led, I find myself giving between 30% and 50% and sometimes even
more, consistently from month to month.

Don't try to tell me that those who tithe get more blessings than those
who don't. I know too many church goers that have tithed all their
lives and have little to show for it.[/quote]I have never tithed in my life, yet I have been blessed with a house
that I paid cash for, a luxury SUV that I paid cash for, absolutely NO
debts, money in the bank, and excellent health, and was able to retire
19 years ago at the age of 50 with NO DEBT. Being SPIRIT LED instead of
10% led, I find myself giving between 30% and 50% and sometimes even
more, consistently from month to month.

Don't try to tell me that those who tithe get more blessings than those
who don't. I know too many church goers that have tithed all their
lives and have little to show for it.[/quote]I honestly do not understand why these pro-tithers will carry on with ignorance. Mr Arnold has said it all. First he proves the utter falsehood of tithe from the bible then he end with a superlative experience. If the words of a 69 yr would not do, what else will convince this generation of young, lazy and ignorant intellectuals.
Thank you sir for that testimony. I would study your website @ the office tommorow.

garyarnold has a website on his link www.tithing101.com
we will all do well to go through the 3 step course outlined there

Now I still maintain that the issue is not even tithe but poor understanding of scripture, that is made worse by the proliferation of churches enslaved to the same tithe. The issue of when the law ended and when grace started and what it consist of dates back to the apostles days. It seem only Paul understood it well; even Peter given the vision in Act 9 still bundled the matter.
Image 123 said 'legalism... whatever that means' showing that basics understanding of what constitute legalism is lost on many arguing for tithe. Study Galatians or Colonial 2:16-23 to understand it better.
Tithing as taught in our churches today is legalistic. If it is not then free God's people to choose how they want to give to God.
Goshen has shown me all I need to see about Abraham tithing in Heb 7 and so need not follow kendall's on that one.
Nonetheless the debate it healthy and to the credit of everyone we have shown true Christian spirit by making the thread bereft of little or no insult. God bless you all and thanks again

Now I still maintain that the issue is not even tithe but poor understanding of scripture, that is made worse by the proliferation of churches enslaved to the same tithe. The issue of when the law ended and when grace started and what it consist of dates back to the apostles days. It seem only Paul understood it well; even Peter given the vision in Act 9 still bundled the matter.
Image 123 said 'legalism... whatever that means' showing that basics understanding of what constitute legalism is lost on many arguing for tithe. Study Galatians or Colonial 2:16-23 to understand it better.
Tithing as taught in our churches today is legalistic. If it is not then free God's people to choose how they want to give to God.
Goshen has shown me all I need to see about Abraham tithing in Heb 7 and so need not follow kendall's on that one.
Nonetheless the debate it healthy and to the credit of everyone we have shown true Christian spirit by making the thread bereft of little or no insult. God bless you all and thanks again

@ Alwaystrue
I appreciate ur concern. My story cannot be contained on any NL page but let me try... I was saved in 1998. same year a brother told me I needed to tithe. I did without asking question. Later R T Keandal, in his book, WORSHIPPING GOD, introduced me to the doctrine of grace. he too encouraged tithing by using the Abraham's story in Gen 14. But some months ago I stumbled on Frosbel's argument against tithing using Abraham. I was interested bc I was in the midst of the crisis I had explained earlier. Goshen's exposition was even more convincing.
Now understand this: I am 36yrs of age been a Christian 15yrs. I am very critical as a person, no one but by God's Spirit could have led me to the conclusion I have reached on tithing.

Garyarnold said it all: we are kings and priests unto out God in the NT. PRIEST DO NOT TITHE!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks alexeleo for that
On the other hand I have this feeling that God allowed the tithe to be to support the gospel work, same way He allowed the Judaizer Christians in the days of Paul. Some people cannot rise beyond a level of thinking.
But the height is LIBERTY. Let every man give as he has purposed in his heart. Not out of compulsion... for God loves a cheerful giver. Let every man be free to give and no one bound into a 10% bondage. In a sense if the church is truly taught what she should know Christians will grow and exceed giving 10% but if the tithe is what U want, then stay limited. that is what I think the divine view is.
Nevertheless let us come higher and stop tithing... or let every do as he is convinced. I, however, have discovered the problem with the church, the limiting effect of the tithe

Tithing has created a lazy pastorate. It has limited Christians' blessing to just 10% when God will have us increase in the grace of giving to the point we are giving a 100%.
Tithing is evil and I am thankful to God for delivering me from its shackles. At the end we all will be judged on how we handled God's graces in our lives based on our understanding of the bible. I will be judged on the fact that I faithfully withstood the evil of tithing, as Paul did the circumcision, and there will be a crown awaiting me.

It has re-enacted a levithical priesthood that was abolished since Christ's resurrection and today we are told pastors are men of God and must not be criticized, if not wrath will come on you. Of course the tithe is always available to sustain them. It has led to the preaching of another gospel - the prosperity gospel. It has relegated Pau's letters to second fiddle; when in actual fact Paul's letters gave the NT testament church the foundation she is to be founded on. Unfortunately, Paul 'forgot' to teach on tithe. And anytime the church forgets Paul's teaching, it returns to the idolatry of Popery.

In the cross of Jesus God has never demanded anything from anyone to bless them, rather He blesses us and we in turn live the rest of our lives in sacrificial awe of Him. That is the truth that nullifies tithing. Tithe is taught in churches using Malachi 3 that says we should tithe and then God will bless and rebuke the devourer and remove a curse. But that message was to the Jews; same way God commanded the Jews to build the temple instead of their homes after they returned from captivity in Haggai. No one takes that scripture in Haggai to build churches instead of their homes today, now. Just like the tithe advocates have been accused of it is easy to take that scripture out of the context it was used to support a very ill practice.
The practice of tithing has not helped the church at all. It has produced a proliferation of churches, where everyone is now called to ministry bc there's free tithe to spend.

What may we consider is the chief problem at the moment: the church, mostly Pentecostals have departed from the truth of God's word and showing the error in tithing is contending for the truth as was once delivered to the saints, Jude3.
The issue is not tithing, the issue following truth. I tithed for 15yrs bc I never really sat down to study it for myself; except to believe what others told me. I was jolted out of this by that little but unfortunate car incidence in my local church(and I must thank Oritsejafor too for the purchase of his jet).
The core truth of the NT is not do this, don't do this; it the gospel of God's grace: Christ Jesus died to save sinners of whom I am chief. God blessed all humanity in Christ and we receive this blessing by faith in Christ and we rejoice in the hope of eternal life. He that did not withhold his Son but gave him to us, how shall he not freely give us all things. That is the gospel.

[quote
author=Image123]You would take me seriously? As in, seriously? i don't need you to take
me seriously, it matters not. i'm yet to see one passage, one witness
speak against tithes in all of Scripture, old and new. You're ready to
go against tithes without one single witness, but you need three
witnesses for believing. I'll say like Abraham, neither would you
believe even if you were presented 3 witnesses.[/quote][quote
author=Image123]You would take me seriously? As in, seriously? i don't need you to take
me seriously, it matters not. i'm yet to see one passage, one witness
speak against tithes in all of Scripture, old and new. You're ready to
go against tithes without one single witness, but you need three
witnesses for believing. I'll say like Abraham, neither would you
believe even if you were presented 3 witnesses.[/quote]Yes, image, give more instances than Matt 23:23. Rule no 1 in biblical exegesis is that a matter becomes doctrine when it can be found in more than one place in scripture. Jesus said 'without leaving other undone' but he didn't mention tithe. Now assuming he alluded to tithe in that scripture where else did he talk about it?
How do we base a practice on just one Scripture? Even the Hebrew 7 was not arguing for tithe. Hope u get my point?

Thank U Frosbel for that explanation.
I was reading Goshen's thread but it was diverted so much that it was difficult to follow his discuss, especially reading from a Nokia phone. Goshen pls I request you put the whole discuss in one piece and paste it on this thread. Thank you all for helping me.
Image 123, at the mouth of 2 or 3 witnesses a matter is confirmed. I would take you seriously if you can find another instance in the NT where Jesus alluded to tithing directly or indirectly

I am on page for on Goshen's thread. The argument is intense but the logic is lucid. Unfortunately the thread was continually derailed but my questions are being answered.
Having tithed for 15yrs since University days it is not easy quiting but it is worth it to preserve the truth of God's word.

^THANK U PASTOR KUNG. I FOUND THE LINK ON GOSHEN'S TOPICS AND I AM STUDYING THEM NOW

[quote

author=christemmbassey]Pls dont follow Abraham, the christian is better
than Abraham. . The christian is born again, Abraham was not.[/quote]Abraham was not born again is not correct theological. He may not have born again as the NT type but he was certainly regenerated and justified.
Genesis 15:6, Romans 4:4-5
Also no one gave the impression of following Abraham. He is only an example. Jesus Christ is Lord forever.

Thus I thought, if there were not too many Free money, via tithing, that money will not be available for anyhow spending in the name of God's leading. So I began studying tithing but I thought I must clear the Abraha's issue ehich I hope Frosbel and others will help me with.
So for me it was a journey to discovery, not just that I wanted to be disobedient. That is why I started with a scriptural ref and not an experience, But so far this is what led to it.
By the way my church does not practice firstfruit. in the heat of the debate two yrs ago my pastor came out to argue against it. These are the reasons I felt my church was ok, until the car incidence.

I then wrote a letter to the senior pastor of the church were I laid down my concern for the church in Nigeria and the deceit of prosperity. In it I suggested that church finances should be published. He thanked me, in a text, though he said I should not allow my anger to rob me of God's blessing.
By the new year the church announced the purchase of a 4M naira car for another senior pastor. It was to be a sunrise gift to him on an anniversary occasion. The car was given to him but my Pastor said that church finances was used to purchase the car and we should donate to replace the money. I did not donate and I held my peace. Till this moment I am almost sure that money was never recovered via donation.
Then I said so these men think they can use church finances as they wish and not be held accountable.

Let me share with the house the reason I began to think tithing through and through.
In the heat of Oritsejafor Jet purchase last year I preached a message in my church Doctrine: The Foundation for the Anointing in the End Time. The message was delivered to a small group in church. In it I made it clear there are two types of doctrine in church: The true and the false, and that each of the, came with their own anointing, taking ref from Matth 24 and 2 corinth 11. While discussing the false, I said 'What is the motive behind the purchase of a private jet' without mentioning Oritsejafor. After the message one of our senior pastors told me that though it was a sound message I should have left Oritsejafor out of it, he said 'to his master, he standeth or falleth'.

This just came to my heart, as to the question of Abraham tithing. Apparently circumcision started with Abraham with a clear instruction from God that every male must be circumcised Genesis 17. One could argue that circumcision was not of the law also since it preceded the law. But, lo and behold, by the time of Paul the apostle, he withstood circumcision to the end. In fact it may br argued that only Paul understood the doctrine of God's grace so much as to denounce circumcision among the apostles, who felt he was called to the gentiles with that peculiar message, while they were sent to the circumcised. Which has to be untrue. From the time the vision was given to Peter in Act 9, it is apparent that God was through with circumcision and by extension, tithing.

^All along I had thought frosbel and goshen360 where one and the same person
I am looking fwd to ur contribution too

^^^that will be excellent Frosbel
Along side you may mention what U do and how it links such grasp of scripture U have and how U came to some of this conclusion without the pollution of new generation gospel - I mean what Xtian tradition are U of and who
are ur role models in Xtian ministry. I hope all this still preserve ur anonymity

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfeDi5E16P0


Though Frosbel has not answered me, the above video from one of his posts helped a great deal.
But I am still awaiting your response.

Hi Frosbel,
I tried to send you a mail via this medium but decided to open up the discuss just in case there other who may want to benefit from it.
I have followed a bit on your discuss in the religion section. I once came across your discuss on tithing where you showed that Christians should not pay tithe, especially with your discuss on Hebrew 7. Following an incidence in my local church and having critically looked at the doctrine on tithing I came to the conclusion that indeed tithing is not a new testament injuction. I have tithed for 15yrs since becoming a chrtistian and this month may be the fist time I am not going to be tithing. I have some points for and against tithing. I would start with the "Against". That is my conclusion for not tithing and would ask that you shed some light on why the "for" reason is equally unscriptural.
Against:
1. Chief among them is that tithing is legalistic. (Colosians 2). And if we must tithe we had better keep the whole of Moses' law.
2. The New testament does not teach tithing: in fact I see that only Pharisees tithed in the time of Jesus
3. There is no scriptural evidence anyone paid tithe to Jesus or the Apostles.
4.Until recently, tithing was not a common practice among protestant and evangelical chuches, I cannot speak for the catholics.
5. Tithing may be at the root of the prosperity teaching
6. Malachi 3 was a message to a Jewish audience; and the main gist of it was not tithing but the abuse of the priestly office something that modern day Pastor are equally guilty of.
7. Jesus' words in Mathew 23:23 where he said "... do not leave others undone" cannot be said to be a categorical justification for tithing because the others there refered still to the keeping of the law. But that Mercy, faith and Justice, the crux of the law, is what we should pursue after. Which is still God's calling on the NT believer.

But there are some questions still remain on why tithing may be justifiable. And they include
1. Abraham payed tithe to a type of Christ in Genesis 14 and Hebrew 7 lent a word to it. And if Abraham is the father of faith, whose faith we are called to imitate, Romans 4, is this not a veritable reason to tithe?
2. Somewhere in Proverbs the bible teaches that we should honor the Lord with our substance and give him the firstfruit of our increase. Is this another reason to tithe?
In one of your discuss on tithe you analyzed Hebrew 7, as a reason not to tithe. Can you please shed some light on this in the light of my present question.
Thank you.


After one week of intensive debate on this topic I consider that my question is answered. By the time this thread reached page 4, a gentle man by the oname f Gary J Arnold(garyarnold) came in and offered such clear explanation on the topic. He had the website www.tithing101.com on link. That website shed light on all my questions. I want to thank Frosbel(who the thread was adressed to), goshen360, christembassy, and a host of other anti-tithers who helped me come to a better conclusion on the subject of Abraham. I also thank image123, truthalways, bidam and other pro-tithers, who made the argument worth it all and for your time in contributing. At the end I was more convinced by the anti-tithers than the pro. The reason is simple, though I am pentecostal in tradition, I am very well schooled in reformed theology and the doctrine of grace. R T Kendall who introduced me to this in his book WORSHIPPING GOD taught me tithing. But he used the Abraham example. But following the experience I related later in this page 1, and colosians 2, I was increasingly led to study tithe. But just could not go over the Abraham issue until this thread was made.
I write this for those who are just opening the thread. Of course, you have the freedom to come to your own conclusion but before you do so, try to read the arguments, most of which are scripture backed, to reach you conclusion. At the end may all the glory be to our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. Amen.
Thank you.

Having served in Yola, Adamawa state is like another home town to me. Ganye, I know and its sad that these Boko Animals have reached that
place too. May God heal Nigeria and restore our peace
And for those who think these are reasons to split the country, they
should dream on.... it will not happen

To answer d OP question we must understand there is no one answer to insecurity issues like this one
But to begin with we all must trust our God to keep us in our going out and coming in and then we can implement suggestions made here and whatever else common sense dictates.
May God comfort the heart of d bereaved.
Amen.

I enjoyed that piece. Well done.
Unfotunately it won't make front page.

I saw the his burst in the library @ UCH and was wondering what the story was behind him until I read those piece. Thanks Iyaniwura for the enlightenment