₦airaland Forum

Bastage:
My guy, I do not dispute evolution. But I look at it through eyes that judge on the material realism that I exist in. To me, evolution makes sense. Creationism is a literal definition of the Bible that has no foundation in logic.

I mostly agree with you though the evolution theory has gaps to be filled, biblical creationism to me is just like the yoruba theory of creation involving obatala and the expanding sand he brought from heaven or wherever he came from from a rope hanging in the sky.

Bastage:
Within the reality that we exist in we have choices to make. Not always free choices but choices none the less. I am guided to believe that the form in which I exist was created by evolution. But as I mentioned earlier, I try to look beyond the veil. To me, evolution or creationism are just distractions. The real me (and you) are not bound by their physical meanings. The theories of creationism and evolution are only things used to describe our physical being. We exist beyond them.

This isn't exactly a Solipsist's mindset, yu do acknowledge others exist also? Your hypothesis on existence are interesting and cannot be easily waved off but the burden of proof lies with you so I term them beliefs.

Bastage:
I hear you. Bear in mind though that an individual can also be a rabble if he is confused by the many voices in his heart. Christian churches are just the same but on a larger scale if you don't try to exert control over yourself and let them overwhelm you. Any answer lies with you and you alone. Personally, I see the Bible as the most interesting book ever written. I've stated time and time again that one has to study the context in which it was written to understand it though. But even then, it's deeper message can only be defined by you and you alone.

The most interesting collection of books you meant? I agree with most of your other conclusions though.

Bastage:
On a philosophical level there is no difference between belief and knowledge. Again, you only have yourself to judge as the measurement. If you believe in your own judgement then you have a knowledge.

On a philosophical level as defined by your solipsism belief you meant?

Bastage:
What is an unbounded number if it is not infinite? Are you saying that an unbounded number has an end? To me, the number is like Pi - it goes on forever. We know Pi exists and that it is infinite so why can we not apply that same idea to our beliefs?

No I don't mean that an unbounded number has an end, I was only implying that some of our diffferences have to do with terminology. Pi is a mathematical construct with clearly defined attributes necessary for geometric calculations. God isn't necessary for anything. Even if used as a placeholder for the yet unknown origins of existence, most of the attributes associated with it cannot be proven e.g intelligence, existence of a plan e.t.c.
By the way, could you clearly define what your concept of God is and what his/her/its attributes are because it is clear the God you beleive in is not the same one mainstream christianity believes in.

@Bastage

Solipsism is quite weird and I doubt you truly beleive it yourself, it doesn't seem to be a very pragmatic philosophy and has already closed any avenue for reconsideration of your beliefs. It is too self centered for my liking. In the spirit of self preservation I would rather be close to an hypocrite like Davidylan than you (I know I would be safe if I pay lip service to his delusions but I could never feel safe near you since your philosophy denies even my very existence).
But you do owe it to us (the make belief creations of your thoughts) to prove the validity of Solipsism.

tpiah:
Hallucinogenic agents can also explain quite a lot.

True word, nothing works magic as much as hallucinogens. Are yu sure yu didn't have a couple of pints of "unknown" substances before they started those tricks? Have yu ever watched David Copperfield flying on stage? believe me I was also conned by such tricks in the past, amazing things the human mind can think of when it really gets to work.

sarmy:
When deep asleep, our dreams are as real as anything, similarly what if this present life is a dream though it appears real, what if our actual life exist outside of this present one.

Many will agree with the following that:-

1. This present life is for a brief moment, at most 150years or less, to be fair enough

2. It's also full of happiness to some while some live their entire life full of sorrows

3. We are not made of body alone, there is a spirit also in us

4. If our body evolved from apes, where did our spirit come from

5. Who made what we are made from both body & spirit

6. If someone contributed to our making, where is he and where does he live

7. How come he has not shown himself physically to proof that he exist or do something to let at least 60% of life inhabitants enjoy

8. To him who made us, how important is this our physical life which is for a brief moment and also with more than 50% of it's people suffering daily

9. What if to him, this our physical life is just dream or unreal or a movie, and knows we would soon wake up, would he be so concerned

10. There are so many things that point to the fact that this life may [/b]not be as real as it seems

11. [b]Please note: this is not to say that this present life is worthless or useless, we might all be going through this phase as part of a bigger picture in the scheme of things in order to fulfil the original plan of our maker.

12. One thing is sure, Whoever made us could only have been a loving father, caring and almighty one. This present life has not presented him in such a good light (reason why so many people does not believe he exist) but to him, we may all be dreaming.

1. True, but that is speaking in relative terms of human history. Relative to the life span of say an ant or a cell in the body, 10 human years is a very long time.

2. Very true

3. This is speculation and not proven in any way

4. You are assuming the existence of the spirit,  can you prove the existence? anything the spirit supposedly does that cannot be attributed to anything else?

5. The question might not be who made? but what made?

6. You are assuming their is an entity/personality involved, but as I said earlier this is yet to be proven.

7. Maybe becos there is no such being and our answers lies elsewhere, science and research perhaps (usually shows consistent results but I do agree there are no answers there yet )

8 & 9. see above

10. Like what exactly? please give examples.

11. Point taken, but yu still haven't proven that there is a firstly a maker and secondly a plan.

12. On what basis do yu make these assumptions? whoever made us might as well have been barmy, bored and looking for some entertainment or more likely nonexistent.

davidylan:
i see the congregation of islamic hypocrites thronging here . . . ask them same questions on their own boards and the violent sons of satan start frothing.

Yeesh, can't yu just discard this us against them mentality for once and take a detached look at issues? sure they might be wrong but does that alone make you right?
Sentiments cloud reasoning you know?

Krayola:
@ duduspace,

I sorta agree with u,for all we know even the dual nature of matter might be misguided. But you are being very dismissive of information that I doubt you have given as much thought or study as the people that have presented them. I could be wrong, so please don't take that as an insult.

and the 1st thing my post said was that i would't call it a"dream" I actually thought dream was being used as a kind of metaphor for an incomplete state of consciousness. But it seems you mean dream as in sleep, dream up stuff, and think its real.

I don't take your conclusion as insulting at all , I am not as abrasive as some of my posts might suggest.

I agree that I might not have given as much thought or study as the people who presented these ideas and that is the reason why I'm asking the questions I did.
My first answer was a tongue in cheek answer to the literal meaning of the title of the thread.

@Krayola

What yu're talking about is totally different, it is true we might not know the absolute truth as everything we know is to an extent relative and one can't really rule out any possibiblities but until someone conclusively proves these theories (as was done with the dual nature of matter which you pointed out) and make them pragmatic, the only reality we need bother about is the one that stares you and I in the face. Any other reality is the stuff of research and sci-fi movies.

sarmy:
This is just a question, I may not have all the answers but this question may point us to identifying our true identity outside of this material life which may be unreal in itself.

This could assist us in providing answers to the many other questions of life, promote love, forgiveness and many more

There are a lot of assumptions here which throw up a lot of even more questions, for example why do you beleive our present identities is a false one?

sarmy:
What if, our consciousness is awaken to the realization that this world we live could be less than real to our real self, what if in our real life, we are all in oneness.

The more we are awaken, the better we would be generally, that's the core message of Christ, he associated with the supposed sinners because he saw things differently.

A lot of questions and no anwers, I can see from the portion in bold that your working theory is that the answer to your question is yes but you have not stated exactly why you beleive this. My point precisely is that the answer to your question does not have to be yes for mankind to be better generally.

sarmy:
Yes, one can do this. What, if one has journeyed to a strange land and came back home before realizing his neighbor over there was his lost cousin, what if he awaken to that realization while over there.

It wouldn't matter would it, cos yu would just be waking up for something akin to a bad dream anyway?

sarmy:
The starting point will be to promote the core message of Christ, love, NOT religion, church, color or race
It all depends on our level consciousness as @ the time of the dream.

If the core message of Christ needed such a belief before it can be promoted, Jesus himself would have answered that question for us, besides Jesus himself never said that we were in some sort of dream state did he?
You haven't shown that we are in a dream yet, but you are already suggesting levels of the dream?
Also, you have not answered the question if you've ever known of anyone actually interacting physically with any entity from their dreams (apart from lunatics that is).

sarmy:
Yes, but genuine love is far less among men, most often our love is really based on what we can get in return, if we know our real self and that we are of a family over there, we may begin to see things differently, this unreal world may begin to be of a more pleasant dream

You can only speak for yourself and not for anyone else, there are people selfless in loving others both within the religious and atheistic camps. You don't need to turn reality (as we know it) into a dream before you realise that we are all of a family, the name of the family is mankind.

quote author=sarmy link=topic=275193.msg3913089#msg3913089 date=1243102691]
OK, how do we explain various behaviors of others, how could a loving father be watching his children killing themselves thousands of years as if we made ourselves, what of those natural events we can not directly control

[/quote]The behaviour of man is studied in various subjects such as sociology, psychology, philosophy e.t.c that is to say the behaviour of man is complex therefore your questions have no easy answers.
Where did you get the idea that reality means you must be able to control everything? I always beleived that it is in dream and illusions that you can control everything, please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

[quote author=sarmy link=topic=275193.msg3913089#msg3913089 date=1243102691]What if we are all related and one over there, but here, our dream has made us all seem separate from one another and separated from our original source, hence all we see.
How do we genuinely appreciate almighty God and our fellow men, if we are totally disconnected from our real self and if this life is the real one.

We are all related, in fact we are not only related to other men but also to apes, baboons, monkeys and other animals (if the theory of evolution and genetic analysis are true), we don't have to disconnect from reality before understanding or accepting that as a fact.
I don't believe in God but we can genuinely appreciate our fellow men without disconnecting from the reality we now know.

Please feel free to answer my earlier questions.

sarmy:
The world is all too real, but that's what we think even when we are deep asleep, most of the time it's always very real to us, could this be a pointer to something higher.

One day dream from outside of this material world may be equivalent to a 100years here on earth, so to us it seems real but to them, here is unreal.

Where exactly are you going with this and how useful is this question to us?

Is it your hypothesis that we are in a dream? If so, what are your reasons for coming up with such hypothesis?

Do you want us to wake up? if so how exactly do you intend to do that?

Why not bother about this after yu've woken up to actually discover that you were dreaming or in an illusion?

It seems obvious to me that you will never be able to understand that you are in a dream or an illusion until you are out of it and my reason is simple as I've never seen someone discussing with their dreaming selves or interacting with any of the entities in their dreams.

Did you just watch the Matrix?

JJYOU:
to the pure all things are pure

Can yu please expatiate further? To the pure, is murder also pure?

What is the good news in this?

Is it that we now have more deluded people who believe that dunking themselves in water will take then to a sugar candy fantasy land?

or

Some folks found a way to relieve stress by dunking themselves in water?

Bastage:
Comprehension is a strong word. One can only believe that one comprehends.

Again, I would point out that the material world is a concept of reality. Study the philospopher Descartes. you will see his famous words "I think, therefore I am". What he means by this is that the only thing he can be utterly sure of is that he (and only he) exists. Everything else is a result of material sensory input. There is no way that he can be certain of anything excpet for the fact that he (and only he) exists. Personally, I think, therefore I am, but to me it is logical that I was created or am part of something else. Therefore, the only two certainties are myself and that something else - my God.

I think I get your point and I do respect your position because it is obviously one that has proceeded from deep thought, goes to show that there is a lot that lies beneath initially simple statements.
Am I then right in saying that God in this instance could be the evolutionary process that produced man (if evolution turns out to be true), the intelligence that brought about creation (if creation turns out to be true) or any other myriad of possibilities our puny minds cannot even begin to comprehend?

Bastage:
Yes, we define our Gods. But we also let religion do that for us too. I personally choose Christianity simply because I like the message. But that's not to say that religion is just a waste of time. We could speculate that your whole reality is the creation of your god, therefore everything in it is put there to lead you forward - including religion.

I wouldn't say groping. "Searching" would be a better word. I look upon it as trying to see what lies beyond the veil.

We are not much different, I also appreciate Jesus Christ's message which still forms the bedrock of my morality but that is in total isolation from the hog wash jumble of books called the bible and the personalty cult that grew round the person (which he never initiated) and which has subsequently evolved into the confused rabble we now call christianity.

I agree searching would be a more comforting word, akin to seeing the glass half full rather than half empty.

Also, I don't think Religion is a waste of time I only beleive it should be seen for what it is i.e. speculation at its best and outright lies at its worst (which seems to be norm). There is a very big difference between "I think God exists" or "I believe God's existence is a possibility" and "I know God exists and this is what he says".

Bastage:
To a certain extent I would say as my knowledge evolves, so my view of my God evolves. It doesn't mean that I'm making it all up though. I try to base my beliefs in a founding of logic and don't tend to just jump in head first.
The one thing that probably makes me different though, is that I could choose to give my God up. I don't worship because I have to. I worship because I want to. I worship simply because I believe, that just like me, God is.

We are not much different Bastage, you have only chosen to give an unbounded number the label infinity while I've chosen to continue referring to it as unbounded.

tamashley:
What more can be said? He is definitely not a phony……I think he is more than a man, more than your eyes can see. Maybe not exactly an enigma to those who are acquainted with the ministry but definitely kaleidoscopic when you realize, critics et al, that this one man has traversed so many areas of ministry that often it’s almost impossible to keep up with the latest development.

You've probably seen him in clothing less than his briefs to come to this conclusion which I won't dispute cos all I've seen from where I stand is yet another well fed religious hustler feeding fat on gullible nigerians.
You can further convince us by giving us precise dimensions of the parts hidden under the suit and his underwear which we are yet to see so that we can all marvel at the wonder of this non human who has suceeded in conning the whole world that he is one.

mactao:
Jesus doesn't have a race. Why? Because he isn't from the earth. It's that simple.

Re 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
(KJV)

You are very right, he probably looked like the picture Nignog put up but used some sort of high-tech cloacking device right?

folaski:
THEIR RELATIONSHIP CAN NEVER BE CATEGORIZED AS HOMO., THE BOTH GOT MARRIED TO WOMEN. DAVID HAD MANY CHILDREN. JONATHAN HAD A CRIPPLED SON NAME MEPHIBOSHET


DO YOU REALLY CARE TO KNOW WHAT THE BIBLE ACTUALLY SAY ABOUT HOMOSEXUALITY THEN CHECK THE LINK BELOW

http://homosexualdebate./

They could still have been bisexual, some folks don't care what hole they insert their peepee into you know? there could have been some serious back door action . By the way, I know David got married but is there record of Jonathan getting married? guy seemed like a wimp and could well have been the one providing the back door.
Don't hold me to this though, it is pure speculation.(Disclaimer)

davidylan:
Sounds like a pathetic cop-out to me. If this was your sincere worry, all of you shld be camping on the muslim section. you're more likely to be killed by a freak accident than a horde of christians.

what about those killed by christians in the past also? and what about the Jim Jones, David Koresh and Rev. King types? As long as you peeps continue to perpetuate your religious lies, we will always have such people lurking in the background even if most in the mainstream are peaceful.
The danger to us aside, a lie is still a lie no matter how you dress it up.

I'll bother about this question after I've woken up from the dream.

davidylan:
Well sorry that God didnt feel inclined to draw you then. Go hit your head on the wall and wait patiently for a sorrowful judgement.

Who wants to be drawn to a bloodthirsty, murdering god? I consider myself and the world fortunate that we are not all hypocritical and a liar like you. We are only concerned about you deluded goons who can wake up tomorrow and tell us your idiotic god has commanded you to kill us all.

Image123:
@duduspace
you'll not find John6v44 so disturbing or confusing if you're a student of the Word. If you just take the pain to read the book of John complete, you'll find your answers. Its in the same John's gospel that Jesus talks about Searching the scriptures.
John 3:14,15
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be LIFTED UP: that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Note that word 'lifted up' and turn to John 12v32.
And I, if I be LIFTED UP from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
If you're collected enough, you notice that Jesus says He'll draw all men. All men have been drawn, it is left for each individual to humble himself before God and He'll lift you up. His hands are outstretched while it is called Today, if you respond by stretching your own, He'll lift you up. Thats the 'much touted' free-will we're talking about. It is not God's will that any should perish but that all should COME to repentance. It takes your coming before you can be a christian. It take
s your FOLLOWING even after coming. Only followers are true christians.

Point of correction, the verse itself is not confusing or disturbing in anyway rather it is the fact that most of the biblical verses quoted by christians are usually twisted as they seem fit, considered literal in some instances and viewed as metaphors in others. It is so bad atimes that you wonder who lies more in christians and lawyers.

Now that you have more clearly explained your initial statement, is it safe for me then to assume that the response you intended to make to Huxley's original question is simply that you are a christian because god called you and you answered him right?

Bastage:
It's not easy to explain but I'll try and give you a general idea.

Everything we choose in this world is not done with freedom as we may think. Everything. We are coerced in some way by our reality.

I believe that God is beyond reality and therefore using a reason based in the material to choose Him is self-defeating. And as the only reasons we have are material then not having a reason is the logical thing to do.

Interesting ideas Bastage, I do wonder what people in psychiatrist or psychology would have to say about them.
I just have the following to say about the sections I've made bold.

1. According to you God is beyond reality right? but we live in reality how then can one relate to something that is beyond reality using reality based concepts like prayer e.t.c.

2. How can your reality based mind really comprehend a God beyond reality? how then can anyone claim to be speaking for such a God beyond reality? or that anything such a god does is of any significance in reality

3. If god is beyond reality, why bother with him when we live in reality? 

4. In a way, can there ever be a single definition/classification of something beyond reality? or in other words doesn't each person/society therefore define this esoteric being in his/their own way i.e. creating their own gods?

5. Can't we all just face up to the truth that we are all groping in the dark here?

Bastage:
As Huxley has pointed out in his first post, many people choose for those reasons. When they do, I believe that they are not seeing the whole picture, they're letting material yearnings dictate their choice. It's therefore not a free choice.

If you are not able to make a free choice you are choosing for a reason. That reason is for yourself. I don't follow God for myself, to me, that would be self-serving and not really following Him. Therefore, the only reason I can have for following him is no reason thus meaning that I freely choose.

I hope that makes sense.

I don't think Huxley or anyone can exhaust the possible reasons why people may believe in god and your reasoning (in my opinion) is a bit convoluted since it doesn't reside in reality. I would rather say that you have made up or you are making up your god as you go along and that is not necessarily a bad thing. The difference between lunacy and genius is often a thin line.

Bastage:
Why would you find it disturbing?
The fact is that I am a law unto myself but that I am also bound by my moral values.

To understand what I mean when I say I choose to be a Christian, you really need to understand the meaning of being able to freely choose and what it entails.

Thanks for the response Bastage, Davidylan was beginning to bring out my dark side.

Beleive me I meant no offense in my initial post and was only looking for a clarification since your initial statement taken literally could imply choosing without thinking at all.

Can you explain by what you mean by "being able to freely choose" and what it entails?

I sincerely hope that does not lead to Davidylan's so called 50 page thesis.

davidylan:
I am simply going based on the one post Bastage has made here . . . your irrational and aimless wandering all over issues that occurred 32 yrs ago makes no sense to me at all.

If Bastage believes only in the NT God i think he has a right to make that choice. Duduspace has no right to label his belief insane.

You miss the point, it is pity you can't think well and are always jumping to conclusions. I did not label his beliefs insane, you have assumed that. I only questioned the statement he made. I was simply asking him to clarify his statement because his statement implied making a choice without any thought process towards making a choice. You'll soon start foaming in the mouth if you go on like this in your fighting for god mode. I now wonder who is more barmy in yourself and Abuzola.

In your figh

davidylan:
Another aimless and confused response for the sole reason of a response only. No attempt to convey a rational point.

That someone makes a conscious choice to go to school does not automatically mean there are those who have sleep-walked unwillingly into school too.

it is your initial post which I responded to that didn't make much sense which is why I decided yu could have meant one of two things, since you have now eliminated the second (a contradiction in terms) I then state categorically that you are a bare face liar because there is nothing in Bastage's original statement that suggested a conscious decision unless you prove to me that choosing without a reason is a conscious decision.

davidylan:
Not only did your own "reasons" make absolutely no shred of sense to me . . . i thought Bastage's actually was more authentic. He is a christian for the simple reason that HE HAS MADE A CONSCIOUS CHOICE to follow the Lord . . . why is that not reason enough?

the fact that he did not outline his myriad of reasons in a 50-page thesis does not mean he had no "apparent reasons".

The first I anticipated in my post knowing your predisposition to deny the obvious, so yu've said nothing new, the second is either a bare faced lie or a contradiction in terms, please point out anyone who has made an "UNCONSCIOUS CHOICE".

No one asked for a 50 paged thesis, yu are the one assuming he has to supply one as your bible clearly states that in the multitude of words, there is usually a lot of lies (an obvious indictment of the book itself).

davidylan:
Message received. . . what else?

ditto

davidylan:
I dont care about your moral choices . . . that is of no consequence to me as i dont live your life for you.

My point is simple . . . when Bastage stated CLEARLY the reason he chose to be a christian, you called it insane . . . what makes his own position different from yours? Is a christian also right to call your own position insane?

If choosing for no apparent reason is "CLEAR" enough reason for you then something is wrong somewhere because the Davidylan I knew despite his disposition towards discarding his reasons for doing things on a whim or twisting them as he saw fit, did usually have reasons for holding his beliefs.

I gave my reason which you have clearly outlined in your post (fair enough, they might sound unreasonable to you) but where is Bastage's reason? sorry I forgot his reason is because he chose to.

Make any sense?

JeSoul:
See, I can also copy and paste.

When someone comes up with a fresh perspective or issue or question, it shall be deserving of a fresh response.

Paraphrase:

God sure sounds evil, but I'd better remain on his good side so I remain safe from his evil.

or

I don't really have an answer that makes sense without contradicting myself but I'm still going to stick to my points anyway afterall God is still real to me despite his seeming inconsistencies, there must be some answer somewhere I just haven't found it yet.

Whichever it is, good luck to you. God is evil.

davidylan:
You choose to be an atheist why?

Firstly I am not an atheist, a fact I've indicated a couple of time but which you willfully choose to ignore, my belief system is agnostic. I chose to stop believing in the christian god because it just didn't make sense to me after a while and I saw the god concept for what it really is, a means of providing order in ancient undeveloped societies, a concept which while not totally irrelevant in the developed world we now live in should nevertheless be seen for what it is.

I have a feeling your line of questioning will lead to how I make my moral choices so I'll spare you the need to ask, I share this earth with others and nothing makes me better or more important than the next person so I do to others as I expect them to do to me (one of the few things in the mumbo jumbo called christianity that does seem to make practical sense).

Bastage:
None of your answers fits me, Huxley.

I'm a Christian simply because I choose to be.

No offence meant but this doesn't sound totally sane, can you also kill another person just because you choose to kill? you sound like a law unto yourself and I find that a bit disturbing.

mactao:
John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

is that verse to be taken literally? or is it some form of metaphor? where then does your much touted free will come in? and how is this supposed to encourage any form of morality when I can just go on perpetuating all sorts of immorality while waiting for your father to call me?
Please we don't want such open ended answers that raise even more questions, the question could hardly have been posed more clearly. No bible mumbo jumbo please.

JeSoul:
I don't know enough about the core concepts of Islam to say with authority what their position is on the matter. But I guess I do submit another person could very well put forth my argument as justification for the 'actions' of their god. It doesn't mean I have to accept it, just like you don't have to accept mine either.

Herein lies the contradiction in people who practice one religion or the other, it is all fine and dandy if your god kills others or seemingly instructs you to kill them but it is wrong if another's god(s) tell them to do the same to you right?
and you expect to ever have peace in this world? no f**ing way.
Well maybe that is why the christians only look forward to a place of peace only after their death.

JeSoul:
However I always come back to this. What was the context in which this supposed "wickedness" happened? All to often antagonists only choose to focus on the cop who killed the burgler instead of sympathising with the trail of victims the criminal left in his wake AND the future victims the cop's actions have prevented. Too often they misplace their compassion with the murderer instead of the judge rightly sends him to death row.

A very apt illustration in which you only further illustrate the fact that God is not omnipotent, if it is fine for the cop to kill the burgler, is it then right for the cop to go ahead and annhilate the burglar's family? or God cannot do anything about collateral damage?
Besides, why the inconsistency in action? why annihilate some 'evil' tribes totally and take other's virgin daughters as wives? where exactly does genocide and ethnic cleansing begin? why make peace treaties with some (who achieved such treaties through deception like the Gibeonites in Joshua 9)
I don't see you defending any other god except yours doing this and that is sheer hypocrisy.

This God whom you serve is Evil by every definition of the word, except you want to redefine the word evil as we know it and that is a fact whether you acknowledge it or not.

Pastor AIO:
I would have thought that 6 and 7 were the same. From what I can tell of Chris benogor there is a certain measure of Sincere Uncertainty (excuse the pun) in his belief. I think his word for it is agnostic atheism.

You have a point, Chris is an agnostic atheist (he beleives God doesn't exist but also beleives yu can't prove a negative) while my belief system runs the gauntlet from weak agnosticism through Apathetic agnosticsm to ignosticism (I don't know if god exists and atimes don't even feel the question is relevant).

@blackspade
Another option is to convince yourself that God exists and set out to find him on your own like m_nwankwo