₦airaland Forum

RikoduoSennin:
@bold section, did I say anything like that?

I said that Jesus and his disciples USED THE DIVINE NAME IN THEIR EVERYDAY LIFE.

You didn't say the bold but you said Jesus and His Disciples USED THE DIVINE NAME IN THEIR EVERYDAY LIFE. What does it mean?

Does Jesus EVER CALL THE FATHER Jehovah/Yahweh?

I quoted John 17:6,26 to show you that Jesus made That Divine Name known to his Disciples.

And I ask you how does Jesus make this Divine name known SINCE JESUS NEVER CALLED THE FATHER JEHOVAH/YAHWEH?

Which is very hard for you to provide answer.

Luke 4:17-21; When Jesus read from the book of Isaiah, He read Isaiah 61:1,2 from a manuscript (most likely from the early Greek Septuagint LXX where the Divine Name occur in its Tetragrammaton form in capital Letters).

In the original Hebrew manuscript, [size=14pt]Isaiah 61:1,2 contains not the title "Lord God" but the Divine name in it tetragrammaton form (Please see the preface/forward section of your Bible).[/size] So the question remains, While reading Isaiah 61 to his audience, did Jesus shy away from using the Divine Name- thus replacing it with a Title like superstition lead many Jews during the first century to do?

@bold-that's the lie WT will also feed you people, The usage of Divine name has been lost and REPLACED many century before Jesus Himself was born. I challenge you to provide the evidence that the Divine name was still in use prior to time of Jesus or during the time of Jesus.

Your answer is @Page 2 of this forum:

Show me who provided the answer.

Hebrew 2:11 says "....I will proclaim THY NAME to my brethren....."

Mark 12:36; Jesus quoted from Psalm 110:1 which contains the Tetragrammaton in the original manuscript. Do you think Jesus replaced the divine name there too when he utter those words?

How does Jesus PROCLAIM THIS NAME? Answer my question with SCRIPTURE because I only know TWO OPTIONS how Jesus can do this.

1. That Jesus always called The Father with the Divine name, OR
2. Jesus teaches people to call The Father the Divine name.

So either number you choose Show me with scriptures support.

Lastly, The DIVINE NAME WAS NO MORE IN USE before Jesus was born so if it's necessary for us to use the Divine name IN FACT IT WAS JESUS WHO SUPPOSED TO BROUGHT IT INTO LIGHT.

Look at the chart below.

Abuamam:
Please read the explanation through. You have totally missed my point.

Your own is to point out where I've missed your points.

The prophet (saw) fought to defend Islam from its opponents. They drove him out from his home, tortured his followers, stole thwir possessions, still pursued them to where they were taking refuge in Abissinya and Medinah, connived with other pagans as well as Jews to destroy the Muslims, yet you blame him for fighting back? Ad one western orientalist says; the biggest grouse xtians have against Muhammad is that he did not give himself up for crucifiction. Islam never pretended to be an ingratiating religion. True Muslims do not oppress; and do not allow themselves to be oppressed either... justice is both ways.

So if Muhammad fought back because of what they did to him, what do you want disciples of Jesus who were humiliated and some crucified to do? AND what they did to Jesus' disciples/early Christians far worst than anything ever done to Muhammad, so why must he fight back?

If Muhammad fought because of what they did to him, his ALL his successors/followers do the same?

Baseless excuse...since you're not a believer of Bible I know you might say Jesus' disciple weren't humiliated.

Perhaps you would need to direct your question to the op. However, I would venture to guess that he is referring to the fact that the scriptures that were accepted as 'holy', did not remain consistent over time. Martin Luther did not accept the Catholic version of the canon in entirety after the reformation. Even today, the Catholic Bible contains 7 whole chapters not accepted by protestants or pentecostals. [size=14pt]This means that the Bible WAS changed.[/size]

@bold-if that's the case that means Qur'an has also been change, "Muhammad once told his followers to “Learn the recitation of the Qur’an from four: from Abdullah bin Masud—he started with him—Salim, the freed slave of Abu Hudhaifa, Mu’adh bin Jabal and Ubai bin Ka’b” (Sahih al-Bukhari 3808). Interestingly, [size=14pt]Ibn Masud (first on Muhammad’s list) held that the Qur’an should only have 111 chapters (today’s version has 114 chapters), and that chapters 1, 113, and 114 shouldn’t have been included in the Qur’an.[/size]

Because of this (along with hundreds of other textual differences), Ibn Masud went so far as to call the final edition of the Qur’an a deception! He said, “The people have been guilty of deceit in the reading of the Qur’an. I like it better to read according to the recitation of him [i.e. Muhammad] whom I love more than that of Zayd Ibn Thabit” (Ibn Sa’d, Kitab al-Tabaqat al-Kabir, Vol. 2, p. 444).

So using this line to attack the Holy Bible is meaningless.

In all truth, I do not think that. The more you learn, the more you realise just how little you know.

Then what is the point of thinking that a well educated Muslims can't convert to Christianity?

[size=14pt]No. The devil does not cause fights directly. Rather, he tries to eliminate Islam by creating internal discord and misunderstandings; as well as inciting unbelievers to fight Muslims.[/size]

Your first statement was "...fighting exists because the devil will not rest until the only way to Allah's Mercy is closed. That is his only job..."

But Devil can create internal discord and misunderstanding...so if Devil can do these why do you think Devil can't cause someone's life to be poor? as you accuse Christian believe the other time.

[quote]Xtians differ. Many pay lip service to xtianity, or just write it on a foem as a matter of habit. [size=14pt]It is no secret that churches in the West are emptying.[/size] In Europe, evangelicals are seen as oddballs. It is you who point to the fact that the [size=14pt]West is now secular,[/size] when we point to spreading homosexuality, fornication, gambling and military campaigns all over the globe. Yet you rush in to claim them as xtians when they invent some new technology or behave in a manner pleasing to you. Make up your mind already.

The @bold is funny, so as Churches in west get empty Mosques are getting FULL, right
@bold 2-So if west are NOW becoming secular does that mean Islam is the biggest populated religion in the west?
We are not talking of who invent or not my POINT HERE IS VERY CLEAR your claim was "...Some non-Muslim countries have already begun to see that violent opposition to Islamic extremists is actually counter productive, and are now seeking to better educate them Islamically, rather than fight them..." I then asked for this NON-MUSLIMS COUNTRIES that are now doing this GREAT WORK OF ELEVATING these brainwashed Muslims from killing to a well educated ones. You refer to WESTERN and I then asked LIST TWO OF THESE WESTERN COUNTRIES. You started talking another thing.

Again you deliberately misunderstand. [size=14pt]The catholic and other xtian missionaries did not permit standard Islamic studies in their schools.[/size] They imposed subjects like philosophy, and European history, to drive a wedge between the Muslim youth and their Islamic heritage. [size=14pt]The trend to educate Muslims in their religion is what xtians oppose.[/size] This is because they are impossible to convert. The ability to reason and the strength of faith through knowledge is very inimical to conversion through 'signs and wonders' and other forms of play on emotions.

So if west are doing this to Islam ALONE what of ARAB where Islam ORIGINATED FROM?
Do the ARAB deprive their Children of gaining well Islamic education so that they can support west too?
Now your problem is on Christian but forgotten that both Christians and Muslims live in the same world.

The last @bold got me crack my ribs, so it's Christian that suppose to be educating Muslims about their religion now.

Please who does Christians oppose this trend?

[size=14pt]The devil has been playing around with your Bible for centuries.[/size] It suits him to have you believe that Jesus 'manifests himself' to you, since that opens a door to the devil to put his own inspirations into you, under the guise of being Jesus... using this verse as proof. How many atrocities have pastors committed under the guise of commands from a 'manifestation' of Jesus or the 'holy spirit'? From impregnating parishioner's wives and daughters, to burning 'witches' out of little kids, to dispensing petrol as pineapple juice and grass as cake, to lining up bare naked spinsters and committing atrocities on them in public. The common thread...either Jesus or the Holy spirit told them to. [size=14pt]Common sense and morals leads us to believe that the devil told them to, regardless of what they think.[/size] And if the devil can appear to them, why not to you? Perhaps the message given to you is more subtly evil than impregnating twenty parishioners wives.

So is Devil who puts this verse there, I remember one thread we're talking about Bible being corrupted YET still support the prophecy of Muhammad you said that day that "if a VERSE is corrupted then the WHOLE is corrupted too

For your information this same John 14 has been used by Muslims scholars to prove that Bible actually prophesied about Muhammad, now if it is the Devil who put this verse there then Devil has also deceived you poeple.

The funny part is that, Muhammad claimed that Jibrl (Holyspirit) appeared to him YET all these atrocities were also common in his life that means Devil is the one that actually appeared to him as confirmed by you @bold 2.

The prophet Muhammad (saw) actually performed more miracles than Jesus according to extant sources, and taking the NT as authentic for the sake of argument. From feeding the multitudes, to producing water, to healing the sick, to driving out demons. I actually have a book titled; 'the one thousand and one miracles of the messenger of Allah'. [size=14pt]We just do not boast of them because they were a sign for those who were there. The Quran is our miracle for us today.[/size] Having said that, please tell me how many miracles did the prophet Abraham perform in your Bible? Does this decrease his status as a prophet?

Imaging you want to take the record of Jesus NT miracles as authentic JUST FOR ARGUMENT SAKE whereas your own Qur'an talks more of Jesus' miracles.

I can see your objection to Christians miracles since Allah has limited his power to a BOOK but my God: the Great YAHWEH, I AM THAT I AM, UNSEARCHABLE GOD, UNLIMITED IN POWER proves His power whenever man's power is limited any day any time any where.

Besides, does your Bible not say that only an evil and adulterous generation seeks for signs? What does that make you evangelicals/ pentecostals that are signs and wonders junkies?

Lol...so why does Allah show signs to this evil and adulterous generation when they asked Muhammad?

Mind you we're not seeking for Miracles to PROVE THE EXISTENCE OF GOD as the Jews do to prove Jesus' Messianic which lead to that statement of Jesus that you misinterpreted but my Bible says wherever the SPIRIT OF THE LORD is, there's LIBERTY

Abuamam:
Neglected in the sense that they refused to learn its teachings and were attracted by the glamour of the West who had colonised them.

Try to help me understand something here, if actually this people left the teaching and tenets of Islam and ATTRACTED TO THE WESTERN who had colonized them, why are they still killing? Are western practice supported killing each other? Isn't it the same west that other religions live?

Which book? There have been books written by arab secularists, following the mindset of Attaturk and al Sisi, who called for reform and scrapping of Islam. Of course, they had followers in the Muslim world... [size=14pt]but they Muslim youth today, have largely seen through the lies of Western secularism and cut-throat capitalism.[/size] Hence the revival of Islamic teachings in their hearts. Unfortunately, the Islamic educational system was not ready for such a huge resurgence, [size=14pt]so many of the youth, filled with enthusiasm, had no means of acquiring the proper knowledge, and some fell into the wrong hands of those who, in ignorance, they perceived to be heroes.[/size] But as more Muslims slowly develop true understanding, it will be harder for such people to find recruits.

@bold 1-Is it the western secularism who put those verses into Qur'an?
@bold 2-Does Muhammad himself fill with enthusiasm or didn't acquire proper knowledge of Islam or fell into the wrong hands of anyone before he fought those war?
Do ALL Muhammad successors possess these weak attitudes before they conquered many places?

We are just discussing the issue. Actually, there is no question of a reformation to Islam. Islam is complete and perfect. Its tenets are established up to the Day of Judgement as the only way to God's Mercy and Forgiveness. [size=14pt]It is how Muslims misinterprete Islamic sources to suit personal ideology that needs to be corrected.[/size] Islam is a religion of evidence and reason. It preaches justice and moderation in all aspects of life...according to numerous narrations of the prophet (saw).

If the @bold is true, why the OP is talking about Christian reformation as if Christians change their Bible to suit today's world?

This is the point I'm making!

The era of the Quran and the Sunnah is for ever, [size=14pt]fighting exists[/size] because the devil will not rest until the only way to Allah's Mercy is closed. [size=14pt]That is his only job... not as you xtians believe; to reduce your worldly wealth or block your wife's womb...etc.[/size] The devil has no interest in whether you die rich or poor, or childless; and he knows he has no power over all these anyway. The devil just wants you to follow him to hell, that is all. Having known that, Muslims have been given permission to defend their right to practice their faith. Some Muslims ignorantly go to extremes and fight for political or other reasons. Again, access to standard Islamic education will correct all these, insha Allah.

Imaging this is coming from someone who think is knowledgeable than some people.

So Devil's only job is to fight! Devil's can't torment you either in the dream or physical, prevent you not to pray to Allah but can only make you to fight, no wonder Muhammad fought many war in his life time.

So that means Muhammad didn't access this STANDARD Islamic education too because History told me since the beginning of Islam Killing have been the other of the day.

If Muhammad nor any of his successors fought any WAR people can say truly something has went wrong somewhere i.e maybe these Muslims might have truly misinterpreted what Muhammad handed down to them but History proves this wrong because the way Muhammad killed that's how his successors killed.

Most of these countries are secular and detached from all forms of religion. Hence they are not blinded by the bigotry and hatred that xtians; especially evangelicals; seem to be full of.

List at least two of this western countries
Of course I know you'll use the word SECULAR but tell me any western country that is not Christian majority?

I have no problem with xtianity. I was a xtian once. [size=14pt]They have planted schools and hospitals, mostly the Catholics, at a period when Muslims were asleep and under colonial rule; with intention to win converts, and thereby benefited people in many ways, I readily admit that.[/size] But; to quote your Bible; what does it benefit man to gain the whole world and lose his soul?

You've no problem with Christian
You're once a Christians yet you believe some more KNOWLEDGEABLE people than you can't convert to Christianity?

@bold-But your initially claim was The only reason why most xtians oppose this trend is because they find it impossible to convert the well-educated Muslims,

Can you see the contradiction?

[size=14pt]As for Muslims that are more knowledgeable than myself becoming xtian, I doubt that such is possible.[/size] Of course, some so-called scholars do learn Islamic studies as a trade, [size=14pt]and never imbibe the teachings of Islam, so do become atheists.[/size] But even I, with my limited knowledge, can never imagine becoming a xtian for any reason whatsoever. Is it vision where the devil appears to me as Jesus? Is it 'miracle' worked by every self-respecting babalawo; and which are more likely to be stage managed than not? Is it unverified stories of travelling from Lagos to Benin on empty tank, or a piece of pastor's chair that heals ebola and HIV? Come on.

Anyone reading this your post can see that there's no element of TRUTH in you.

It's evident that you know Jesus still reveals Himself to people has He promised in the Holy Bible "He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." John 14:21 NKJV but you decided to call this wonderful encounter with Jesus as Devil's encounter.

NOTICE how many times the word LOVE appeared in that verse. Remember some Muslims do say WE LOVE Jesus more than Christians do but the truth is those Muslims who actually profess this statement wholeheartedly are the one Jesus truly revealed Himself to.

How will you believe in miracles when Muhammad never perform any?

JMAN05:
Thanks so much,but pls read that Thessalonians very well. Who was actually coming with an archangel's voice sir? And pls respond to that john 5:28, 29.

So why does your Organization teach that Jesus has come since 1914 when this same verse 1 Thessa 4:16 says "the Lord will DESCEND with a SHOUT..." did Jehovah witness hear this shout in 1914?

Abuamam:
The Quran is uncorruptible and was never lost. It was Muslims who neglected it, and the teachings of Islam..

I always laugh at the way you reason sometimes, if MUSLIMS NEGLECTED QURAN how then was it preserved?

even Arabs; getting drowned in the man-made theories of 'democracy', 'communism' and 'socialism', and selling their souls for the wealth of this world... except for a few who retained their faith.

And you believe that when they drowned themselves in MAN-MADE this view was not incorporated into their book to make it more supportive.

But recently, many more Muslims are becoming knowledgeable about the true tenets of Islam; which was suppressed under the era of colonisation and Arabisation.

So what is the essence of this thread when some people have actually suppressed its tenets, which now called for open understanding?

There is a strong Islamic revival under way.

You called it REVIVAL but Christians called it REFORMATION which is let everybody understand CHRISTIANITY by themselves.

However, there are Muslims who have more enthusiasm than knowledge, and tend to be extreme in their view; while Islam teaches us to be moderate and wise in all dealings. With more access to standard Islamic educational facilities, we hope that such knowledge will be accessible to all Muslims from their youth, and so there will be less trend to act impulsively and more of a trend to wisdom and moderation as Islam preaches, and the recruitment pool of the ignorant extremists will gradually reduce, and their ideology gradually die down.

Well this is actually the reformation Islam needs with the view of civilization to see that era of Muhammad time has passed but now the need to follow the era of LOVE which Jesus preached has come.

Because from the foundation of Islam by Muhammad himself, followed by his successors till date killing has been part of Islam, why must it be like that? was it because Muhammad himself is enthusiasm and extreme or he's moderate in his dealings?

Some [size=14pt]non-Muslim countries[/size] have already begun to see that violent opposition to Islamic extremists is actually counter productive, and are now seeking to better educate them Islamically, rather than fight them. So we are on the way insha Allah. [size=14pt]The only reason why most xtians oppose[/size] this trend is because they find it impossible to convert the well-educated Muslims, and this will hit their pastors' pockets hard. Hence they want Muslims to remain ignorant, and to continue to point to the ignorant ones as 'true' Muslims so as to dupe the ignorant maajority...though of course, they will never admit that.

@bold 1-So these non-muslims countries are they Pagan or Christian?
@bold 2-I can see your problem with Christianity, yet Christians Missionaries always plant school any where they go including Muslims communities while Muslims never done 10% of such movement.
@underline-So what of those WELL EDUCATED Muslims (even know Qur'an & Hadith more than you) who have converted to Christians or Atheist?

lanrexlan:
Much than you can ever think.

And this is hard for you to say

Do you know how many Muslims THAT were killed in Spain by crusaders for not accepting Christianity?

@underline-that's a lie, the crusades were not carried out FOR PEOPLE to accept Christianity BUT TO RE-CONQUERED Jerusalem and its territories which have been conquered by Islam. Muslims started it all. Just like what happened in Kaduna where Muslims have been killing Christians and the Christians rose up one day and start killing the Muslims back.

Mind you I didn't say the crusader didn't kill Muslims but my point here is THEY DIDN'T KILL THEM TO ACCEPT Christianity.

It is the people that needs reformation and not Islam. People need to get enlightened about what the scriptures say and not blind following what their leaders told them without verifying it.

Now if it's people who need reformation, isn't it the INTERPRETATION this people gave to Qur'an that needs to be reformed?

This makes your thread useless.

You don't change Islam to fit you, you can CHANGE yourself to fit into Islam.

The point is what Islam actually teaches that people need to change themselves to that Arabs Muslims didn't know?

Abuamam:
The true knowledge of Islam [SIZE=14PT]must be re-instated[/size] in order to STOP these killings.

So people never have this true knowledge of Islam since over 1000 years of Islam existence?

Are you telling me that even the Arabs where Islam itself originated from don't have this true knowledge?

CAPTIVATOR:
Swallow this truth bro .

Malachi 3:1
Douay-Rheims Bible

Behold I send my angel, and he shall
prepare the way before my face. And
presently the Lord, whom you seek, and
The angel of the testament , whom you
desire, shall come to his temple. Behold
he cometh, saith the Lord of hosts


Darby Bible Translation

Behold, I send my messenger, and he
shall prepare the way before me; and
the Lord whom ye seek will suddenly
Come to his temple, and the Angel of
the covenant , whom ye delight in:
behold, he cometh, saith Jehovah of
hosts.

You call this a truth to support your false doctrine, then how can you ignore the first statement which refers to John the Baptist?

Douay-Rheims Bible
"Behold I send my angel, and he shall
prepare the way before my face..."

Darby Bible Translation
"Behold, I send my messenger, and he
shall prepare the way before me;..."

Is John the Baptist an Angel?

lanrexlan:
[size=14pt]You can only reform man made ideas, not the creator's path in which he has chosen for mankind.[/size] Allah says in So set you„your face towards the religion of pure Islamic Monotheism Hanifa (worship none but Allah Alone) Allah's Fitrah (i.e. Allah's Islamic Monotheism), with which He has created mankind. No change let there be in Khalq-illah (i.e. the Religion of Allah Islamic Monotheism), that is the straight religion, but most of men know not.

At bold what do you even know about Christian reformation?

Do you think people were bombing or beheading people for not accepting Christianity or some man-made doctrine as you rightly said that was reformed?

So all this killing must continue in Islam since it was Allah wrote them.

kombo:
Disable all plugins... try again... if it works... activate plugins one after the other and test so you can identify the particular plugin causing this... else... holla...make we yarn next step

Thanks for your respond but I've done that yet the message is still coming.

Does it mean the Child theme is not working or functioning?

Though it appears in my dashboard.

Sanuzi:
Lets Talk:

Mobile/Whatsapp: 07038641600

BBM: 7B663F3A

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An expert in Blog Design,content management systems (CMS) such as
Webpagemaker,Frontpage, wordpress, joomla, drupal,
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Please I created a Child theme for my site in WordPress and I'm getting this error message when I preview the child theme:

Warning: require(): Filename cannot be empty in /home/propert7/public_html/wp-includes/theme.php on line 1861

Fatal error: require(): Failed opening required '' (include_path='.:/usr/lib/php:/usr/local/lib/php') in /home/propert7/public_html/wp-includes/theme.php on line 1861

What can cause this?


cc: @dwebdesign

BIBLESPEAKS:
Never have I seen or even heard of a representative of a president for example, being addressed with the name of the president.

So if a President representative was to be called in the occasion how will you address the person?

[size=14pt]The minister of Agriculture - Dr Akinwumi when representing Mr President - Dr Goodluck Ebele Jonathan[/size] cannot then bear his name. As a representative, he bears his name - Dr Akinwumi but he represents the presidency and so he does as he's instucted to do. Whatever achievement comes thereafter from the arrangement is Attributed to Mr President.

This is a pure lie, you can't CALL him Dr Akinwumi just like that while he was representing Mr President in an occasion.

The person names involve are Dr Goodluck & Akinwumi while the Title are President & The Minister of Agriculture, therefore Akinwumi can't be called Goodluck in a normal sense but can be addressed with the TITLE Mr President (on that very occasion-which means he is FULLY IN PERSON OF THE Mr President even though he is not THE REAL President)

Jesus will carry out a task that he was appointed by Yahweh to do - Acts 17:31
Yahweh in effect achieves his purposed through Jesus.

So that means YAHWEH has come as He promised in the OT, True or False!

BIBLESPEAKS:
Yahweh didn't change his mind.

Jesus is a representation of Yahweh (he does nothing of his will but the will of Yahweh). By appointing Jesus as the one to Judge mankind (Acts 17:30, 31), it is really not change because Jesus does the will of Yahweh.

Its like a president saying: "I will be at the conference next week", but sending a representative. That representative will be briefed by the president on what to do.

So also, by appointing Jesus as judge, Yahweh is still the Judge.

Jesus is being given responsibilities in the Bible, another of which is being king of God's kingdom. But notice what the scripture below says:

1cor 15:27, 28 - For yahweh subjected all things under his(Jesus) feet. But when he says 'all things have been subjected,' it is evidently that this does not include the one who subjected all things to him. 28. But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the son himself will also subject himself to the one who subjected all things to him, That Yahweh may be all things to everyone.


Jesus is an appointed judge. Yahweh appointed him, so he does Yahweh's will. So Yahweh is the chief Judge.

Since you said that Yahweh didn't change His mind that means you agreed with the second option which is Yahweh has come!

As Jesus is Yahweh's representative then is it wrong to address Jesus with the NAME YAHWEH (Jehovah) since every representative ALWAYS takes the address of whosoever he/she represented?

enilove:
The problem with OP is that he is trying to rewrite the Bible.
The verses the OP quoted are diff from what is written in the Bible :

Psalm 96:6, 13 KJV
Honour and majesty are before him: strength and beauty are in his sanctuary. [13] Before the Lord : for he cometh, for he cometh to judge the earth: he shall judge the world with righteousness, and the people with his truth.

Isaiah 66:15 KJV
For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

Psalm 50:3 KJV
Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.



Zechariah 14:13-15 KJV
And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the Lord shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour. [14] And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance. [15] And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.


Most Christians think and assumed that the old testaments talk only about Jehovah and never mentioned Jesus. Many believe their pastors more than the plainly written word of God.
A simple example can be seen when Jesus appeared to Abraham in :

Genesis 18:1-3, 16-17, 20-24, 26 KJV
And the Lord appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day; [2] And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them , he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground, [3] And said, My Lord, ( NOT MY LORDS ) if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant: [16] And the men rose up from thence, and looked toward Sodom: and Abraham went with them to bring them on the way. [17] And the Lord said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do; [20] And the Lord said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous; [21] I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know. [22] And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the Lord . [23] And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked? [24] Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein? [26] And the Lord said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.

These verses above indicate that Abraham spoke physically with the Lord . But can any man see the Father and be alive? Definitely not . The "Lord" that Abraham spoke with was Jesus .
It also supports the fact that it is Jesus that will come and give judgements in the last day . He said "the cry which come unto me ". The angels report to Jesus .

Another fact to show that Jesus is mentioned in the old testament and to judge the world is this :

Psalm 110:1-2, 4-6 KJV
The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. [2] The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies. [4] The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek. [5] The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath. [6] He shall judge among the heathen, he shall fill the places with the dead bodies; he shall wound the heads over many countries.

KJV differentiate BTW Jehovah and Jesus in verses above by using Capital letters to show Jehovah, "LORD" and Jesus as "Lord".

Take note of d foll .

The LORD has sworn ,and will not repent ,"Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek .

The Lord "at thy right hand shall ......

He shall judge ............

Who is a priest for ever after Melchizedek? Jesus
Who sits at the right hand of God ? Jesus
Who did psalm 110 say will judge the world ? Jesus.

It is there4 wrong and misleading to replace the word "Lord" with "Yahweh" in the Bible because it is used for Jesus Christ as well.

In essence what you're saying now is that Jesus was the actual one ALL the OT prophecies (of coming to Judge the earth) referring to, right?

semasir:
What platform do you intend to learn- CMS like WordPress, Joomla or HTML/PHP?

Please can you help me a code for real estate search OR how can I create search form?

Thanks

RikoduoSennin:
Is "The Lord" a Name, do you know the meaning of a Name?

Figure that out.

Do research! YHWH is the divine name.

I'm still waiting for you to give me the verse where Jesus and the disciples address the Father as Jehovah.

Abuamam:
You are just trying to play a fast one.

And you're trying to be...

[size=14pt]First, a book being corrupt does not mean that everything in it is fake.[/size] We believe that your current NT contains words narrated about Jesus, or [size=14pt]incorporating things he MIGHT have said.[/size] Problem is, there is no way to ascertain that he actually DID say all those things attributed to him.

I will continue to bold your illogical statement

The emphasis is @underline part, since it doesn't mean that EVERYTHING is fake, how can you know precisely the ONES that are correct and the ONES that are incorrect?


So what if the ONE Muslim scholars are claiming to be Jesus words are finally the ones they incorporating with Jesus?

You can't eat your cake and have it.

[size=14pt]Second, there are verses which have been acknowledged by CHRISTIAN bible scholars as being interpolated.[/size] The authorship of the whole Bible is in doubt (apart from some of Paul's letters). The mere fact that false authorship was attributed to certain chapters, makes the whole book suspect (I said SUSPECT). For example, no way did Moses write his obituary at the end of Deuteronomy. There are many such examples.

The bold section is a wrong information about the Holy Bible, interpolation as you may believe CAN ONLY be said to appear in the TRANSLATOR'S VERSIONS not in the ORIGINAL MANUSCRIPT. I hope you can differentiate between ORIGINAL MANUSCRIPT and TRANSLATION.

All the Greek manuscripts in possession today were dated back to 100BC long before even Muhammad came into the scene.

About authorship your argument here is baseless, you know why? Because that can also be said about Qur'an and Muhammad. Muhammad isn't the one who wrote Qur'an with his own hands. If you care to read more about Christian analysis of Bible authorship you would've know the truth i.e scholars agree that Joshua actually completed the last part of Deuteronomy remember he was with Moses right from Egypt.

Third, we assert that if ONLY ONE verse is interpolated, or removed or changed, [size=14pt]therefore the whole cannot be the word of the Almighty.[/size] And we also assert that if there is one interpolated verse, there could be another and another and another.

See how you contradicted yourself, you said before "First, a book being corrupt does not mean that everything in it is fake."
But for you to continue living in delusion you later claim "Third, we assert that if ONLY ONE verse is interpolated, or removed or changed, [size=14pt]therefore the whole cannot be the word of the Almighty.[/size]

Now it's evident that Muslims are confuse fellow.

What I want from you now is to tell me that Muhammad was prophecy in the corrupt Bible OR no prophecy of Muhammad was in this corrupt Bible, then this discussion will end.

Fourth and for the nth time, we do not use the Bible verses, authentic or not, to prove the existence of our prophet (saw). [size=14pt]We use it as a witness against YOU,[/size] who believe that it is all from God; even with all the evidence to the contrary.

Imaging you're using a CORRUPT BOOK as a witness...and this witness will then prove that Muhammad was actually prophesied in this CORRUPT BOOK.

[size=14pt]Fifth, we know that any verse in conflict with the Quran MUST be a later interpolation.[/size] We also know that some, like the one you mentioned above, COULD be from Jesus. There are others, such as whether he was born in Bethlehem or not, whether he went to Galilee or not; about which we say 'God knows best'. These could be true, or could be false. A verse saying 'thus says the Lord' could still be an interpolation depending on its content. We know that the Lord cannot invite mankind to associate sons and daughters with Him.

Even if the place that the saying THUS SAYS THE LORD is ACTUALLY TRUE but since it against Islam or Muhammad it must be INTERPOLATION.

Imaging another thing could be from Jesus when you're already said IF ONE VERSE is interpolated, Change, Removed THE WHOLE CAN'T BE FROM ALMIGHTY

This is an evidence that Muslims truly know that Jesus' actual words were recorded in the Bible but decided to chose the one they like and reject the ones that against them.

So your implication that any verse that starts with "thus says the Lord..." is automatically accepted as authentic by Muslims, is patently false and designed to make the xtian win the imaginary argument.

Can you provide evidence where I said this?

Hope you now comprehend our exact position on your Bible.

Your position is coarse and contradictory.

You want to eat your cake and still have it.

You don't want to accept Bible as the Word of God, FULL with contradictions & interpolations [b]but on the other hands YOU STILL WANT US TO BELIEVE THAT Muhammad was prophesied in this same CORRUPT BOOK and Muslims were ONLY USING THIS CORRUPT BOOK as a WITNESS to Christians.

Finally, I can see you totally omitted the part in my post where I said despite the fact that the Jews don't accept Jesus as The Messiah YET Christians never condemned their book not speak horrible statement against it instead they accepted their book BUT Islam on the other hands TERMED both Jews and Christians books as Corrupt, NOT WORD OF GOD, contradictory YET claiming it still contain the prophecy about Muhammad, what do you have to say?

RikoduoSennin:
I made typhographical error, I was not contracting myself, you simply saw what you saw!

Instead of you to admit your fault you're still proving right,
Why should I even take you serious when you can't distinguish between TYPO and OMISSION of word in a sentence?

Read John 17:6,26 " Jesus said He made A NAME not a Title known", What name was he talking about?

The name we know today.
I can see how you're stylishly dodging my request: Give JUST A SINGLE VERSE where Jesus addresses the Father as Jehovah...not only Jesus also the Apostles Yet no single verse can be produce uopn your claim that JESUS used the Divine name.

@bold section above: Why did Jesus made known or manifest THE FATHER's NAME TO THE MEN YHWH GAVE HIM @ John 17:6,26?

For attestation of His coming from The Father...
I'll now direct the question back to you, HOW was Jesus made known or manifested the Father's name to those men?

Can you replace everywhere you find 'YHWH' or the word 'NAME' with the word 'Power' in the Bible without altering the meaning of that passage?

The underline shows that you fully understood me.

[size=14pt]Jesus used the Divine Name,[/size] if he didn't he would have been LYING @ John 17:6,26. He told that Name to his Disciples, why? For them not to use it?

Ofcourse, [size=14pt]Jesus what is disciples to use the Divine Name.[/size]

I guess you mean TAUGHT in place of WHAT here---if so this is what we call TYPO ERROR.
@bold sections-where was Jesus used the DIVINE NAME and TAUGHT HIS Followers to use the Name maybe the place has been removed by Trinitarians?

And I will now ask you too, since there's no evidence in the Greek Scriptures where Jesus addresses the Father as Jehovah nor taught His disciples to address Him as Jehovah, why Jehovah Witness interpreted John 17:6, 26 as Jesus declared the Divine name?

Shockingly, can you give me just A SINGLE SCHOLAR who ever interpreted this verses as Jesus talking about The DIVINE NAME?

This is how you will know that your point is baseless, the Divine name has lost its real meaning, pronunciation and actual Alphabet before Jesus Christ came so if Jesus and His followers used the Divine name that would have been and avenue to get the proper pronunciation, meaning and Alphabets but nothing like that was recorded in History.

You don't follow my arguments at all, you care more about 'fights of words'. Tell me, Jerome mentioned that Matthew wrote his book originally in Hebrew; In the New testament books, how many book did Matthew write? - ONE, How many other books were written originally in Greek
? - The majority, hence my phrase " His disciples (plural) who wrote the Christian Greek scripture (another name for New testament books since majority of those books were written originally in greek). I still don't understand how all this relate to the thread.

Were you not the one who brought the issue up to support the disciples using the Divine name? Now you're asking how it related to the topic.

Beside you miss the part where you said Matthew wrote his book in Hebrew which make it ORIGINAL and WRITER whereas you later said The TRANSLATION is original too.

Are you saying that Jesus and his disciples DID NOT USE THE DIVINE NAME? What was their reasons for NOT using the Name their ancestors used so frequently? The superstition?

I thought you have a phone/pc with internet, finding out when the Divine Name was removed from the Bible shouldn't be that hard. Some Bible translation preface section should be of help.

If they used it kindly show us where and where they do so...

Lol...so it's me to search now not you, in fact had been you can yield to your own advice you would've discovered the name was no more in use for some centuries before Jesus came which would have been an opportunity for Jesus to restore the name.

Because you don't follow my Train of thought, even with my typho you should have figured out what I am trying to say, instead you see my typho as me contradicting myself. Also try to read in between the lines, ask questions- why is Riko saying this? It help you to see where I am coming from.

If your post was TYPO that's would have been better BUT YOU OMITTED a WORD which change the meaning of your sentence.

Learn the different between a typo and omission.

Abuamam:
Google is your friend here. Alternatively, you can find numerous books on how the Quran was preserved; from both truthful/ untruthful orientalists and Muslims.

So is there no book about how Bible was preserved; from both truthful/untruthful orientalist and Christians too?

We don't know... God knows best. [size=14pt]The verse could be as corrupt as its sister verses.[/size]

Now you don't KNOW.
@bold-if the verses COULD BE as corrupt as the rest, so all this while Muslim clerics have been using Bible to prove the coming of Muhammad from the Bible means they are using corrupt book to support their claim.

See how illogical it is:

Christian: Bible is the word of God
Muslim: No, Bible is not the word of God
Christian: Why did you say that?
Muslim: Because it's a corrupt book (many contradictions and mixing up of pagan doctrines)
Christian: Then how come prophecy of Muhammad's coming can still be found in this book which is not the word of God, contains many contradictions and pagan doctrines?
Muslim: You see not all the part that corrupt, SOME PART were actually TRUE.
Christian: How do you know that?
Muslim: You can find such word like Thus says the Lord, God says or Jesus' saying...
Christian: Really!!! But there are some places in the BIBLE where we read the phrase Thus says the Lord, God says or Jesus' saying that against Islam and Muhammad.
Muslim: We don't know...God knows the best...

But we don't use the Bible to justify our religion. [size=14pt]We just show you how ambiguous it is; and if you can claim to use the OT to prove Jesus is the Messiah, (incidentally, the jews who WROTE the OT disagree),[/szie] we can also prove that the prophet (saw) is in both OT and NT; using the standards YOU set (which ultimately is why you disagree too).

AMBIGUOUS You show me how ambiguous it is by proving to me that Muhammad was actually prophecy in the Bible (Remember there even a verse in the Qur'an that openly stated that Muhammad was spoken of in their Book)

Now see the different between Muslims and Christians;
Despite the fact that Christians use OT to prove to a Jew that Jesus is the MESSIAH [b]YET Christians don't say their (Jews) BOOK is not God's word, Contradictory, Ambiguous and Corrupted that's why Christians can ADD their book together with their OWN book.

But in case of Muslims they raised all these allegations against BOTH JEWS & CHRISTIAN BOOKS and still claimed the coming of their master can be found IN THESE CORRUPTED, Contradictory, NON-God's Word and Ambiguous books.

How pathetic it sounds?

Abuamam:
Sorry, I did not see your question before.

No problem

First, Allah said He gave Jesus the INJEEL. Why it was translated as the 'Gospel' is best known to the translator.

Is it what the translator chooses OR the MEANING OF THE WORD GOSPEL? Please don't bust my stomach with laugh ooo

Secondly, for a more proper understanding of what 'Gospel' is meant here, see

Matthew 4:23 Matthew 9:35 Mark 1:14-15 Luke 4:43 and Luke 8:1

THAT would be the 'Gospel' Jesus preached, not Paul's letters or the 4th century writings falsely attributed to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.

The MOST funnies and ridiculous thing about your point here is that according to you Paul's letters or 4th century writing were FALSELY ATTRIBUTED TO Matthew, Mark, Luke and John BUT YOU CAN STILL REFER ME TO THE SAME Matthew, Mark & Luke

Now let's just agree that, that's what Jesus actually teaches Matthew 4:23 says [b]And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, preaching the gospel (Good NEWS) of the kingdom, and healing all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease among the people."
Matthew 9:35 " 35 ¶ Then Jesus went about all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues, preaching the gospel (Good NEWS) of the kingdom, and healing every sickness and every disease among the people."

Mark 1:14-15 "14 ¶ Now after John was put in prison, Jesus came to Galilee, preaching the gospel (Good NEWS) of the kingdom of God, 15 and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel."

Luke 4:43 "but He said to them, "I must preach the kingdom of God to the other cities also, because for this purpose I have been sent."
Luke 8:1 "Now it came to pass, afterward, that He went through every city and village, preaching and bringing the glad tidings (GOSPEL) of the kingdom of God. And the twelve were with Him, NKJV (bracket, bold, italic-mine)[/b]

So if these are Jesus' statements the question still remains what is the GOOD NEWS about the KINGDOM of God that Jesus is preaching?-At least this Good NEWS must be something that NOBODY EVER HEARS ABOUT before.

Why must it be ONLY Jesus that was given Good NEWS to preach among the prophets as you believe?

Lastly, you have short yourself in the legs if you actually believe these because in every where the word GOSPEL or Glad Tidings/Good News appears as we read it in the above verses it connotes PREACHING and not A BOOK as Muhammad and Allah claimed.

JMAN05:
Sir, what is the right name God gave to Mary for the name "Jesus" in Hebrew? And how are u writing and pronouncing that name now? Are u using the accurate one God gave?

How do Jews write and vocalize what u call "isaiah" today? Are using the one God gave?

What do u mean having there root forms in Hebrew, and how did Isaiah, Jesus and Jeremiah fit in?

You're still repeating the same shiit...

Let me help you this time around for the last time...for instance the name Jesus in Hebrew is Yehshua and when the Greek NT writers who ALSO understood Hebrew will write it in Greek they USED GREEK EQUIVALENT word let me ask you "Does the NT writers wrong with their Greek word for Yehshua? for had it been that the Divine name for God in Hebrew was USED BY THE GREEK WRITERS what Martini formulated wouldn't have occurred.

You are not up against pronunciation, then your op is useless.

How

For ur information, most scholars prefer Yahweh cos they are seeking the correct vocalization. And our question is, why don't they do such for other names? Is it not glaring that english is not interested in accurate pronunciation?

NOT ONLY IN VOCALIZATION...habaaaa
YAHWEH has a FORM in HEBREW but JEHOVAH doesn't

Again, until you start pronouncing all Hebrew names as jews do, you are not to be taken serious. I wonder why u want to use "y" when God's name comes into play and use "j" when Christ's name is discussed. Is it only God's name u want to use "y" for? Why not all other names? You guys are certainly not serious.

For argument on pronunciation, see:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah

I'm very sure you're not sincere with yourself if you actually read the link you gave.

1) The link is totally against your claim:

Under Pronunciation
i) Jehovah (/dʒɨˈhoʊvə/ jə-HOH-və) is a Latinization of the Hebrew יְהֹוָה, one vocalization of the Tetragrammaton יהוה (YHWH), the proper name of the God of Israel in the Hebrew Bible. [size=14pt]This vocalization has been transliterated as "Yehowah",[1] while YHWH itself has been transliterated as "Yahweh".[/size]

ii) Karaite Jews,[14] as proponents of the rendering Jehovah, state that although the original pronunciation of יהוה has been obscured by disuse of the spoken name according to oral Rabbinic law, well-established English transliterations of other Hebrew personal names are accepted in normal usage, such as Joshua, Isaiah or Jesus, for which the original pronunciations may be unknown.

iii) Early modern translators disregarded the practice of reading Adonai (or its equivalents in Greek and Latin, Κύριος and Dominus)[22] in place of the Tetragrammaton and instead combined the four Hebrew letters of the Tetragrammaton with the vowel points that, except in synagogue scrolls, accompanied them, resulting in the form Jehovah.

Under Development
i) [color=brown]The most widespread theory is that the Hebrew term יְהֹוָה has the vowel points of אֲדֹנָי (adonai).[28] Using the vowels of adonai, the composite hataf patah ֲ under the guttural alef א becomes a sheva ְ under the yod י, the holam ֹ is placed over the first he ה, and the qamats ָ is placed under the vav ו, [size=14pt]giving יְהֹוָה (Jehovah).[/size] When the two names, יהוה and אדני, occur together, the former is pointed with a hataf segol ֱ under the yod י and a hiriq ִ under the second he ה, giving יֱהֹוִה, to indicate that it is to be read as (elohim) in order to avoid adonai being repeated.

ii) Taking the spellings at face value may have been as a result of not knowing about the Q're perpetuum, [size=14pt]thus resulting in the term "Jehovah" and its spelling variants.[30][31] Emil G. Hirsch was among the modern scholars that recognized "Jehovah" to be "grammatically impossible"[29][/size]

Under Discourses Rejecting and Defending Jehovah

Summary of discourses
In A Dictionary of the Bible (1863), William Robertson Smith summarized these discourses, [size=14pt]concluding that "whatever, therefore, be the true pronunciation of the word, there can be little doubt that it is not Jehovah".[85][/size] Despite this, he consistently uses the name Jehovah throughout his dictionary and when translating Hebrew names. Some examples include Isaiah [Jehovah's help or salvation], Jehoshua [Jehovah a helper], Jehu [Jehovah is He]. In the entry, Jehovah, Smith writes: "JEHOVAH (יְהֹוָה, usually with the vowel points of אֲדֹנָי; but when the two occur together, the former is pointed יֱהֹוִה, that is with the vowels of אֱלֹהִים, as in Obad. i. 1, Hab. iii. 19:"[86] This practice is also observed in many modern publications, such as the New Compact Bible Dictionary (Special Crusade Edition) of 1967 and Peloubet's Bible Dictionary of 1947.

The second line of your ridiculous statement was found missing, the emphasis you made on J & Y which never occur in the link

The third line of your statement that scholars prefer using Yahweh because they're seeking correct VOCALIZATION is also refuted as we can see that since the development of the name is wrong then the pronunciation will also wrong.

Waiting for another excuse you'll come with...

Abuamam:
Of course. We need to learn all the [size=14pt]details of our Quran before we can claim to have knowledge in Islam...[/size] that is the basic step.

So how was Qur'an constituted? Since you want him/her to do research on how the gospel was constituted.

I think I pointed out that [size=14pt]SOME few verses in the book might have been transmitted correctly from Jesus' sayings.[/size] It is only that too much doctrine of greek philosophers and Roman paganism has been mixed in.

So how do you know THE EXERT ONE transmitted correctly (even though you're not sure by using 'MIGHT') by the same person who mixed Roman paganism with his writing? Because there are many Jesus' saying that against Islam and Muhammad himself.

I guess Muslims only chose the one they like and leave the one that doesn't support their religion even though it's still the same JESUS' SAYING.


What a confuse fellow.

Abuamam:
Like the vast majority of the flock, you really have no idea about how your gospel was constituted. I advice that you research deeper into Bible history, and clear your mind of these misconceptions. Nothing that I said came from me; it was all postulated by REAL doctors of divinity and Bible historians, perhaps you should take a look at what these people have to say and take a break from your uneducated pastors; who are selling your soul for their mess of pottage (read huge mansions and private jets).

Do you take your time to research about your Qu'ran too?

Like I said earlier how irrational it is to think that a book was fabricated and at the same time this same FABRICATED books talk about the coming of your master.

Abuamam:
Lol. Not everything is black OR white. There are different shades of grey. The NT is probably one of them; mostly sand, but with a little garri mixed in [size=14pt](you know, the part about the prophecy).[/size]

The part about the prophecy is correct EVEN ON THE SAME CHAPTER but the rest are incorrect

The large amount of sand makes it unpalatable sha. [size=14pt]In any case, which Muslim told you that Islam relies[/size] on the corrupt NT prophecying our prophet (saw)? We KNOW that this news is in the original gospel preached by Prophet Isa (Jesus if you like).

Go online and see how Islamic clerics have been using Bible both from OT & NT to support the coming of Muhammad.

So what happened to original Gospel?

The question I'm still asking Muslims which I never get answer to is, GOSPEL means Good tiding or Good news and Allah said he gave Isa THE Gospel, please what is the GOOD TIDING or GOOD NEWS is all about? Why Must Isa be given THE GOSPEL as a BOOK among all the prophets?

Abuamam:
Really? Is it there? That shows that the 'Q' source might have retained a little truth then.
Don't blame me anyway. The 'Q' source is proven by your own scholars.

We're not talking about scholars here.
Does NT prophecy the coming of Muhammad and Islam as many Muslim scholars have said? If yes! then anything you say about the NT BOOKS is against you. If No! then you can go further.

If there is anything I learnt from pentecostal xtians on NL, this is it.

Continue then since you learnt it here

Yes, if the thread is st.upid.

THREAD STU.PID

Abuamam:
This post reminds me [size=14pt]how Matthew Mark and Luke copied source 'Q'. This is how the xtians created the NT.[/size]

Yet Muslims can find the prophecy of Muhammad and Islam in these created NT books. Abi

You just like trolling on thread that doesn't even concern you.

@op. Check how many times this same post was put up on NL.

Any problem in re-creating old thread on Niaraland?

JMAN05:
The people's familiarity has always been the bane, [size=14pt]not accuracy.[/size]

Now let's assume that someone just wake up and give God a name and people have familiar with it before God Himself told Moses about His name, you will say the one people already familiar with should be choosing not THE ACCURATE one God gave.

So you agree now that NWT didn't use ACCURATE name for God but the one people familiar with.

While calling Jesus, Jeremiah or Isaiah, we don't fight because we want to say it the way the Jewish man does. No! If anyone is making a case on accurate pronunciation, let him also pronounce all other names the way Jews do. If not, he is not to be taken serious.

This is the reason I took my time to educate you about the purpose of this thread, NOBODY SAY YOU SHOULD PRONOUNCE IT THE WAY JEWS ARE PRONOUNCING THEIR NAME but the name any language adopted from other language MUST HAVE THEIR ROOT/FORM FROM THE ORIGINAL LANGUAGE (Jehovah doesn't have any FORM in Hebrew)

I've said this in my early post both Jeremiah, Jesus, Isaiah were USED BY THE GREEK WRITERS which means those name have their ROOT/FORM in equivalent of it in Hebrew. Unless if you want to tell me the Greek writers used a wrong form Hebrew name in Greek.

This problem wouldn't have occurred if the Greek writers USED GREEK EQUIVALENT WORD OF THE HEBREW DIVINE NAME of God.

No one knows the way it was pronounced then. Even Yahweh is not generally agreed by scholars to be the right way of pronouncing it.

Who are the scholars who disagree about the use of YAHWEH?

dolphinheart:
Yep, I ran away cus I realized you thought I was trying to refute you.

So what is the essence of joining this thread and quoting me if not because you want to refute my point

Secondly , on who is a Christian , [size=14pt]it was not a statement but one of the questions I was hoping u answer in which ur refusal to answer quickened my resolve to run away[/size]

@bold part-I know what you're driving at that's why I gave you infallible evidence from your own organization.

Because the point you want to bring out is TRUE CHRISTIANS can't be a WORSHIPER OF JESUS CHRIST (am I lying?). So with this line of your reasoning I gave you those fact from your own organization. Which means if TRUE CHRISTIANS can't be a worshiper of Jesus Christ then nobody among early Jehovah Witness is a true Christian talk less of being among the HOLY ONES/LITTLE FLOCK since they worship Jesus for good 54years and proclaimed Jesus instead of announcing Jehovah before the teaching changed.

CAPTIVATOR:
" all of these, although they receive a favourable witness because of their faith , did not obtain the fulfilment of the promise" - Heb 11:39

So which fulfillment of promise they did not obtain?

Anyway Thats ur homework, if it was an humble person that asked , I would have gave the answer .. NOT YOU .

Peace !

But you can reply the rest of my post...mtcheeeee

Again, how does the world benefit from Jesus' death?

dolphinheart:
You re right .
[size=14pt]Had to run and flee too[/size] when I saw humility and straight forwardness leave the discussion table. The cup of endless un-stopable laughter is not what I want from a discussion , so ill gladly let anyone have it .

You simply ran because nothing in my post you can refute. The saying "Jehovah witnesses know the truth but they decided to live in deceit is true."

I'm still waiting for you to tell me who are the True Christians, remember your statement "Who is a Christian , a worshiper of Jesus or a follower of Jesus teachings, ways and commandments.

JMAN05:
Fine one. [size=14pt]Until he starts to pronounce Isaiah, Jesus , Jeremiah etc the way the Jews do,[/size] don't take him serious.

The bold section especially THE UNDERLINE is where you miss the point of this thread, this is the same mistake you made above contrasting Y & J which I didn't bother to reply you because you didn't refer to me in your post.

Let me help you this time around, I'm not talking about the alphabet (Y & J) that appear in the name nor HOW JEWS PRONOUNCE the the Divine name the main point here is [size=14pt]the FORMULATION OF THE WORD THAT ENGLISH TRANSLATORS ADOPTED.[/size] When Martini formulated the one English adapted to today, he WRONGLY substituted the vowel of ADHONAY for 'YHWH to get YEHOWAH which rendered the word useless and having NO FORM EVER USED BY THE JEWS.

SO THE POINT HERE IS WRONG FORMULATION OF JEHOVAH.

Webster’s Collegiate Dictionary: "Jehovah is a [size=14pt]false reading[/size] of the Hebrew YAHWEH."

New Catholic Encyclopedia: "Jehovah is a [size=14pt]false form[/size] of the divine name YAHWEH."

Webster’s Third New International Dictionary: "‘Jehovah.’ Intended as a transliteration of Hebrew YAHWEH, the vowel points of Hebrew ADHONAY (my Lord) being erroneously substituted for those of YAHWEH; from the fact that in some Hebrew manuscripts the vowel points of ADHONAY (used as a euphemism [less direct style of writing] for YAHWEH) were written under the consonants YHWH or YAHWEH to indicate that ADHONAY was to be substituted in oral reading for YAHWEH. Jehovah is a Christian transliteration of the Tetragrammaton long assumed by many Christians to be the authentic reproduction of the Hebrew sacred name for God [size=14pt]but now recognized to be a late hybrid form never used by the Jews."[/size]

The Universal Jewish Encyclopedia: "Jehovah is an erroneous pronunciation of the Tetragrammaton, or four-lettered name of God made up of the Hebrew letters YHWH. [size=14pt]The word ‘Jehovah’ therefore is a misreading for which there is no warrant and which makes no sense in Hebrew."[/size]

The funny part of it is that your organization knew this but still promote the usage of JEHOVAH just because people's familiarities with it, what an organization!