₦airaland Forum

JMAN05:
God's holy spirit I said. spirit can refer to a person or to a thing.

So if we should go by your word according to 2 Corin 3:17 what is THE SPIRIT referring to? A person or a thing.

It is the active force that can move someone to utter such speech of prophesy recorded in God's word. God is not an impersonal force that will do that to more than one individuals.

Is it the active force the Bible says that move people or Holy spirit? Remember the Bible gave THE ATTRIBUTES of this Holy spirit.

I didn't know what you're insinuating in your second statement sha.

When God's spirit is operative on someone, it produces those qualities. God is a person who do not dwell in a human.

One thing that baffles me most is the way JWs always take meaning of PERSON about God to mean the meaning of person of HUMAN.
You people need to read dictionary more to understand what PERSON means and the we refer to God as a person.

Read Gen 1:2 in NWT.

You reference THREE different verses but you can only quote one which finally be one of the Greek rendering in NT the Greek scholars including the person JWs always misquote his statement (Dr. Bruce) have condemned about NWT.

JMAN05:
Respond to all my points sir.

Lol...

Please sir kindly list all your points I left out.

thehomer:
You should read your Bible. Mary never gave consent to be impregnated by the Holy Spirit. She was simply told that she would be impregnated.

So what is the essence of sending Angel to inform her?

JMAN05:
When people come to an accurate knowledge of God and want to serve him, they are baptized “in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit.” ( Matthew 28:19 ) They understand and accept the authority of Jehovah and the role of Jesus Christ in the outworking of Jehovah’s purpose. (Psalm 83:18; Matthew 28:18 ) [size=14pt]They also comprehend the function and activity of God’s holy spirit, which is his active force.[/size] — Genesis 1:2; Galatians 5:22, 23; 2 Peter 1:21 .

Since Jesus stated that all authority has been GIVEN to him. Have u ever wondered who gave him that authority? Can the almighty be given an authority?

The bolded part especially the underlined is my concern, please how GEN 1:2, Gal 5:22, 2 Peter 1:21 prove Holy spirit to be active force?

2 Corin 3:17 says Jehovah is THE SPIRIT NWT, is Jehovah a force?

JMAN05:
Better.

This can help:

http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1102005145

Don't give me human reasoning give me from the Bible.

What did you understand then?

What we are discussing here.

Where did I insert my word? Do you think am you who inserts word?

Ok

You should know it is a mistake even without being told, just like your corvered was.

Ok

Since they were already Jehovah's witnesses, there is no need of reminding them that as if that status began that era.

You've mixed everything up, who is reminding here?

James quoted from OT and you agree that the quote was referring to the GENTILES which are WITNESS OF JEHOVAH according to you.

Now the verses say this gentiles are CALLED by God's NAME which you believe made them Witness of Jehovah, so WHICH NAME ARE THE GENTILES BEING CALLED today and WHICH NAME DID APOSTLES BEAR BEFORE THE GENTILES is my point?

Why will he say what they were already? Why will he tell them they will bear his Father's name? There is simply no need for that. The ancient Israelites to which they belonged were Jehovah's witnesses, bearing Jehovah's name. Why say, you will bear my Father's name? they bore it already. And as they replaced the natural Israelites, they took up the status borne by that nation. Peter applied a scripture used for this nation of God on this newly established nation. They knew for sure that they were witnesses of Jehovah.

Who is HE in this your post?

When they knew that they were witness of Jehovah why would they accept being CALLED CHRISTian?

As I keep implying, the witness for God came to include the bearing witness to His son. Those were the work of God to which the apostles were to declare. [size=14pt]If the ancient Jews had accepted Jesus as a nation, they, as a whole will bear witness about Jesus.[/size] There status as JWs wont changed. [size=14pt]It would have been the same, but there witnessing about God would include something more.[/size] Why is this point too hard for you?

You hit the nail on head @underlined though not that it would include something more but TAKING ANOTHER SHAPE which is the essence of this thread, when JAMES quoted those verses HE APPLIED IT TO JESUS not just taking them for nothing. Which was further reinforced in their LETTER to the same Gentiles "men that have hazarded their lives for THE NAME of our Lord Jesus Christ." Acts 15:26 (CAPITAL mine), ASV

I have also shown you a commentary that still buttress the same point I do on that Acts 15. Again:

Since you believe in Bible commentary let me quote some commentary about Acts 15 from different scholars

"This quotation is not made literally either from the Hebrew or the Septuagint, which differs also from the Hebrew. The 17th verse is quoted literally from the Septuagint; but in the 16th the general sense only of the passage is retained. [size=14pt]The main point of the quotation, as made by James, was to show that, according to the prophets, it was contemplated that the Gentiles should be introduced to the privileges of the children of God;[/size] and on this point the passage has a direct bearing." Albert Barnes'

"As St. James quoted them as a prophecy of the calling of the Gentiles into the Church of God, it is evident the Jews must have understood them in that sense, otherwise they would have immediately disputed his application of them to the subject in question, and have rejected his conclusion by denying the premises." Adam Clarke

"To take from the Gentiles a people for his name (labein ex ethnôn laon tôi onomati autou). Bengel calls this egregium paradoxon, a chosen people (laon) out of the Gentiles (ethnôn). [size=14pt]This is what is really involved in what took place at Caesarea at the hands of Peter and the campaign of Barnabas and Paul from Antioch.[/size] But such a claim of God's purpose called for proof from Scripture to convince Jews and this is precisely what James undertakes to give." Robertson

Let me stop here but one thing is very certain James never quoted those verses to MEANING THEY ARE WITNESS OF JEHOVAH but that the Gentiles must be INTRODUCED INTO THE CHURCH OF GOD.

It must have startled the Judaizers when James called these saved Gentiles "a people for His [God's) name," because for centuries the Jews had carried that honorable title (see Deut 7:6; 14:2; 28:10).
from The Bible Exposition Commentary.

Could it be that you cant at your level study and understand the bible?



Nope! You rather have a hard time understanding the bible. Improve your bible study.

God gave Jesus that privilege to have His witnesses bear his[Jesus] name. That is the way God wants it, the way He wants his witnesses to now operate. By doing so, they are fulfilling there role as Jehovah's witnesses. It was Jehovah who even appointed them as witnesses oF Jesus. My brother, CAPTIVATOR made an interesting point. I quote him.

Peter makes it clear that the apostles are ' WITNESSES APPOINTED BY JEHOVAH GOD , who raised Jesus from the dead' Act 10:40,41



Please answer them. If not, when you make comment that relates to any of them, I will bring all those comments back for you to reply.

The commentaries I quoted above are enough to know the purpose of this thread unless if you deny those commentaries.

CANTICLES:
Just give urself some rest , I can see the guy is giving you headache and a tough time

This is what you can come with after HE ALWAYS BOYCOTTS MOST OF MY POINTS which you can't see as a great DISGRACE ON HIS PART because of the same spirit which is in two of you.

CANTICLES:
The Op isnt saying any part of scripture is irrelevant , or do u still sacrifice animals for forgiveness of sins despite its part of the scripture?

Did he say he still sacrifices animal?

the point is that tithing has been cancelled under the new covenant.

Where

UNTIL YOU ARE ABLE TO SHOW US WHERE JESUS AND HIS APOSTLES COLLECT TITHES.

UNTIL YOU'RE ALSO ABLE TO SHOW US WHERE JESUS AND HIS APOSTLES CANCELLED TITHES.

CANTICLES:
The question is not who cause ? , it goes thus " is the spirit OF Error itself a person ? "

This is the only thing you can quote out of many points I raised

What I posted is enough for a rational mind to conceive.

The question I asked you the other you couldn't attempt it but you rush here to quote only one line, what happen to rest of my point

You've boycott that 2 Corin 3:17 again

Jehovah is THE SPIRIT

Because Holy spirit is THE SPIRIT according to the scripture.

CAPTIVATOR:
His Majesty explained In Psalm 97:2 that though he is surrounded by Cloud and Fire , His throne is firmly established!

WHY is the holyspirit never said to have a throne, if its a person? ANSWER

You're always making off point.

Jehovah appeared as CLOUD and FIRE does that mean Jehovah is not a PERSON? You must first agree before I will further here.

Does being appear in a form disprove something to be a person? THIS IS YOUR FIRST ERROR now you've shifted it to HAVING A THRONE which you never agree that you're wrong in the first place.

Such Personification is common in the scriptures
' the waters are AFRAID' Psalm 77:16
The shining sun is " Ashamed" Isa 24:23

Does anything that has MIND not a person? that's the point.

And I'll show you the meaning of PERSON from different dictionary.

Exactly, [size=24]thats why it was contrasted with the spirit of error in 1 john 4:6[/size], unless you are ready to tell me the spirit of error is a person?

You didn't address my point here rather you attach straw man, [size=14pt]DO YOU MEAN Jehovah is talking to Himself when He speaks to the Holy spirit?[/size] according to John 16:13

It's only a perverted mind like you will read 1 John 4 and said it's not talking about person.

Now let's read it from the beginning, you know you always cry about context.

1 "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but prove the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: [size=14pt]3 and every spirit that confesseth not Jesus is not of God: and this is the [spirit] of the antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it cometh; and now it is in the world already.[/size] 4 ¶ Ye are of God, [my] little children, and have overcome them: [size=14pt]because greater is he (The Holy spirit) that is in you than he (The Antichrist/False prophet) that is in the world. 5 They (The Antichrist/false prophets) are of the world: therefore speak they (The Antichrist/false prophets) [as] of the world, and the world heareth them.[/size] 6 We (The true prophets) are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he who is not of God heareth us not. By this we know the spirit of truth (The Holy spirit), and the spirit of error (The spirit of Antichrist/Satan). 1 John 4:1-6 ASV (Bold and insertions mine)

Who is causing ERROR? It's Satan!

The point Apostle John was making here is since we have the SPIRIT of God which is Holy spirit then will can differentiate between the FALSE PROPHETS and the TRUE PROPHETS


[s] [/s]


let me add to your confusion even though I know you'll dodge it again.

"14 That one will glorify me,+ because he will receive from what is mine (Jesus) and will declare it to you."+ John 16:14 NWT
"He will bring me glory by telling you whatever he receives from me (Jesus)." (NLT)
"He will honor and glorify Me, because He will take of (receive, draw upon) what is Mine and will reveal (declare, disclose, transmit) it to you." AMP (Bold, underline & insertion mine)

The Spirit will RECEIVE from JESUS, how come?

One problem you have is how you ALWAYS boycott points when FACTS are being presented to you, you will just quote the one you can still fool yourself with.

If you look back to where I first quote you it's so obvious that you've left the main point.

1) You claimed Holy spirit is not a person because He appeared as DOVE and FIRE, I countered you that then The Father is not a person since He also appeared as FIRE and CLOUD

2) You claimed Holy spirit is PERSONIFIED with a reference to some verses where trees or stone are to be TALKING, I countered this by telling you that The Holy spirit has MIND and EMOTIONS.

3) You went ahead to hold on to the idioms 'COME UPON' without even know the meaning of the idioms.

and many claims you've claimed and I've debunked here.

But you buried all these as if you're not the one who started it all NOW if all these points are true about The Holy spirit then WHY IS HOLY SPIRIT NOT A PERSON?

CAPTIVATOR:
If thats the case , U missed it for the following reasons

- if the “spirit of truth” in John 14:17 is a person, then
“the spirit of error” in 1 John 4:6 must also be a
person, since the two are directly contrasted. The fact is
that each “spirit” represents an influence or a power
under which a person acts, but neither is a person in
Itself.


- 1 Corinthians 2:12 directly opposes the “spirit of the
world” with “the spirit which is of God.” As the “spirit of
the world” is not a person separate from “the world,”
neither is the “spirit of God” a person separate from
God. Each is an influence emanating from a source that
produces certain attitudes, behaviors or “fruit.”

This is what I usually say you always miss the point which is just a desperate not to accept the truth.

This is my post that you quoted "You're stressing this far because my main point here is to prove that BODILY FORM of a DOVE doesn't deny His PERSON, hope you can get my point now?

Here I'm talking about how your point about Holy spirit being descended in a BODILY FORM of a DOVE doesn't disprove His person but just check your reply to this whether there's any correlation.

You shifted the point from BODILY FORM to SPIRIT OF TRUTH.

"our Father in heaven, let your name be sanctified" Matt 6:9 ,

This words prove that Father Jehovah lives in " heaven, his established place of dwelling" 1 king 8:43 ,

Jesus went to heaven and appear before Jehovah God on his throne ( Heb 9:24, Eze 1:26) . THIS SHOWS HE IS A PERSON . Even You Urself Knows That.

So where does Holy spirit come from earth or heaven?

"And John bare witness, saying, [size=14pt]I have beheld the Spirit descending as a dove out of heaven;[/size] and it abode upon him. John 1:31 ASV

In 2 Cor 3:17 we read that " Jehovah IS THE SPIRIT" , and yet we also read the " SPIRIT OF Jehovah " .

[size=14pt]If u think this verse says Jehovah is the holyspirit,[/size] then spirit of Jehovah means " spirit of holyspirit" . And luke 11:13 will say " the holyspirt will give you his holyspirit" DO U JUST SEE That absurdity of such interpretation? It doesnt make any sense.

Is THE SPIRIT and HOLY SPIRIT the same, Yes or No?
You never answer this question which I can see you're dodging Jehovah is THE SPIRIT, please which SPIRIT?
The only absurdity here is the interpretation you can come with which an ordinary English student should know that such phrase can never be constructed in such way.

The truth is that the word "Spirit" is used in the scriptures to mean diferent things

1) Wind

2) The active Breath of life in all livin things

3) the force that influence a persons behaviour e.g spirit of the world

4) inspired expression originatin from an invisible source e.g spirit of error

5) SPIRIT PERSONS ( God, Christ and the Angels , John 4:24, 2 Cor 3:17)

[size=14pt]6) God own free gift of holy spirit ( luke 11:13, Act 2:38)[/size]

Imaging you've grouped 2 Corin 3:17 to mean SPIRIT PERSON, just shaking my head seriously for you

NOTE: The definite article must be put into consideration.

The verse says Jehovah is THE SPIRIT

In the light of this, let us reason about this 3 questions

1) UNLIKE Father Jehovah, why does the holyspirit
not have a throne if its a person?

2) why is the holyspirit NEVER described as having
the appearance of a man, whereas it bears the
likeness of a dove ?

3) as discussed above , according to Proverb
30:4, God has a personal name , His Son also have
a personal name .... Why dont the holyspirit have a
personal name if its a person?

All these your questions can never be looking into without solving those questions above.



Let me show you another reason why JWs are wrong about the PERSON of THE Holy spirit.

In link I provided yesterday about Satan from Jws.org the following statement was said;

WHAT PEOPLE SAY
Some believe that Satan the Devil is not a person but, rather, the abstract quality of evil that exists inside each person

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS
Satan is a real person. He is a rebel angel, a spirit creature who opposes God. The Bible calls Satan “the ruler of this world.” (John 12:31) He uses “lying signs” and “deception” to accomplish his aims.—2 Thessalonians 2:9, 10.

Now after this they went ahead to make this conclusion; The Bible records a conversation in heaven between Satan and God. If Satan were a mere symbol of the evil that exists inside each person, [size=14pt]how could God, who is perfect and morally unblemished, have been talking to an evil part of himself?[/size] (Deuteronomy 32:4; Job 2:1-6) Clearly, Satan is a real person and not merely a personification of evil.(Bold mine)

Now this is very interesting because if God couldn't have been talking to an evil part of himself (NOTE: I'm not saying Satan is not a person BUT I'm only taking the point that GOD can't be talking to himself) will it deem it fit for God to be talking to Himself as of the Holy spirit when we read in the Bible that "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he shall guide you into all the truth: for he shall not speak from himself; [size=14pt]but what things soever he shall hear, [these] shall he speak:[/size] and he shall declare unto you the things that are to come." John 16:13 ASV (Bold and underline mine)

Or is this one PERSONIFICATION too?

So if Holy spirit is a force that comes from God, how can God be talking to the force inside Him?

You can see that JWs never study the PERSON of Holy spirit very well before they make their conclusion, is not even new since they deny most fact in the Bible.

CANTICLES:
Blind argument that shoot you in the leg
Scripture says the Father alone is NAMED Jehovah (Psalm 83:18) And We Are Told That Is Nature is spiritual " God IS Spirit" Joh 4:24

[size=14pt]So u deduce from 2cor 3:17 that the Father is the holyspirit,[/size] then the TRINITY collapse on this platform since this proves they ar not distinct from each other as the trinity agree.

Next ..

No we don't deduce from 2 Corin 3:17 but what the verse says.

Now that Jehovah said to be THE SPIRIT, is The Spirit a force?

OR you agree with your brother that THE SPIRIT is different from HOLY SPIRIT.

CAPTIVATOR:
Good! So dont ever again use him to defend something [size=14pt]that could appear in a dove bodily form[/size] AND NEVER In Human appearance ! Luk 3:22

This is the reason why it look as if I'm harsh in my comment when you leave the main POINT and addressed another thing.

I can still see where you're missing it, Satan is not a SNAKE BUT SATAN appeared in a BODILY FORM of a SNAKE yet Satan is a PERSON.

In your own statement @bolded you said "could APPEAR in a DOVE bodily form" which means The Holy Spirit is not a DOVE BUT ONLY APPEAR AS A DOVE which we can see Satan who is also a person does.

EXACT dove Bodily form, Infact John bear witness saying " I VIEW the spirit coming down as a DOVE out of heaven, and it remained upon him" John 1:33.

Is The Holy spirit a DOVE or only APPEAR in a BODILY FORM of a DOVE?

You're stressing this far because my main point here is to prove that Holy spirit being appeared in a BODILY FORM of a DOVE doesn't deny His PERSON, hope you can get my point now?

Gen 3:14 shows that the creature that speak to Eve was one of the already created " wild beast of the field" " an animal" - (Gen 3:14)

WHILE

Satan is not a snake like u agreed above , REV 12:9 symbolically (( Revelation is presented in symbols/signs (1:1)) portray Satan as a dragon and serpent because he was the power behind the particular " animal ... wild beast of the field " that spoke to Eve ( Gen 3:14)

So do you also agree that The Holy spirit is also the POWER behind the animal 'DOVE' not that The Holy spirit is a DOVE.

Now if Holy spirit can assume the form of DOVE or FIRE, do you mean He can't assume the form of MAN?

" the eyes of Jehovah are everywhere, watching both the bad and THE GOOD " Prov 15:3

Then this teaches us that's how Jehovah makes His abode with those who LOVED Him, right?

VERY CLEAR " and were DISTRIBUTED, and ONE came to rest on EACH OF THEM" Act 2:3

The funny thing is that you never even take into consideration of the PLURALITY and SINGULARITY of these verses

"And there appeared unto them tongues (PLURAL) parting asunder, like as of fire; and it sat upon each one of them. 4 And they were (PLURAL) all filled with the Holy Spirit (SINGULAR), and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance." Acts 2:3-4 ASV (Bracket words mine)

After the TONGUES (plural) appeared and sat upon THEM (Plural) then they (plural) were all filled with Holy spirit (singular), and you couldn't know that this is what we called OMNIPRESENT.

[size=14pt]-Father Jehovah God is the Spirit ! Is this refferin to Father Jehovah as same with holy spirit? NO![/size] Why? The verse immediately separates the holyspirit when it said " the SPIRIT OF Jehovah"

The bolded above is so sad that's why I said earlier that "Your rejection to this will not only ridiculous but expose you more."

THE SPIRIT in that verse is what? Remember you agree that Father Jehovah IS THE SPIRIT.

Can you see what I'm saying? So THE SPIRIT is not the same as HOLY SPIRIT, I can't stop laughing.

NOTE: ANYTHING that is OF or FROM Somethin else Cannot BE that Same something .

Father and the SON Cannot Be SAME Person.

The Spirit of Jehovah can be written as Jehovah's Spirit or His Spirit (which means POSSESSION), so what that verse is saying is The Holy Spirit is Jehovah or Jehovah is THE SPIRIT.

Jehovah is the Spirit, INFACT Jesus already said Jehovah God is a Spirit , Even the scripture said Christ Jesus is " a ... Spirit" 1 Cor 15:45.

Please you need more understanding on English language, DEFINITE Article (THE) is different and used in different way from INDEFINITE article (a, an)

God is A spirit different from God is THE spirit, OK!

This two whom are adressed with a PERSONAL NAME Which Showed they are persons are called Spirit because they have a " Spiritual Body" or " heavenly body"1 Cor 15:40,45.

They were called a Spirit (which means they don't have HUMAN BODY) according to the your quote but not THE SPIRIT.

MEANWHLE, Eze 1:26 Jehovah is said have "the appearance of a man" NOT likeness of a Dove , it also state further that he sits on a THRONE .

MR. This beg the questions. And pls answer it for this thread

1) UNLIKE Father Jehovah, why does the holyspirit not have a throne if its a person ?

2) why is the holyspirit NEVER descrbed as having the appearance of a man, whereas it bears the likeness of a dove ?

3) as discussed above , according to Proverb
30:4, God has a personal name , His Son also have a personal name .... Why dont the holyspirit have a personal name if its a person?

I don't want to prolong the issue I only want this answer from you.

Jehovah is THE SPIRIT, is Jehovah a force?

Maamin:
This topic has been flogged over and over again on NL before. The trinity co-equality is hoax. The Father is not the Son the Son is not the Father the Holy Spirit is more like a force nature and attribute of God, the Holy Spirit can only be of God it proceeds from God who in his nature is a spirit...it was this very spirit that Christ was Anointed with. The bible also made it clear that "it pleases God for His spirit to dwell fully in bodily form of Christ"


Shalom Aleikhem le'makhbir

And yet ISLAMIC Scholars take Holy spirit to be Angel Jibri, so you mean Jibri is of God, Jesus was anointed with Jibri and Jibri dwell inside Jesus?

CAPTIVATOR:
The book of Job makes it clear that Satan is an Angel NOT A SNAKE,

Then who says Satan is a SNAKE?
Did the verse you quoted about Holy spirit says Holy spirit is a DOVE?

Satan only cause a snake "of the field" Gen 3:1 to speak, the same way Jehovah cause Balaam She- Ass to speak as human ( Num 22:26-31, 2pet 2:15,16)

Whereas the curse went straight to the serpent and not on the being who spoke through it. This is a pure lie in the face of the scripture after I quoted YOUR OWN BOOK who CALLED Satan [size=14pt]“The original serpent,[/size] the one called Devil and Satan, . . . is misleading the entire inhabited earth.”—Revelation 12:9.

Here JWs called Satan THE ORIGINAL SERPENT not THE ONE THAT SPEAKS THROUGH SERPENT.

In fact the way you've exposed yourself little knowledge about scriptures is enough for you to open your mind towards the truth.

See reasoning ! SHOW ME WHERE JEHOVAH is said to be distributed among people?

I wonder how you always put your reasoning into action,

Can Jehovah make His abode with more than two people? which Bible confirmed that He can, if yes! then what does that mean?

Another thing is you take the word DISTRIBUTED which is as a result of the translation you used but reading another translation you can get what the writer is saying.

Finally, I don't even need to argue with you much because I'm about to open a thread about JWs and Holy spirit but let me just show you a piece of it here how JWs lack scriptural knowledge.

[size=14pt]"Now Jehovah* is the Spirit,+[/size] and where the spirit of Jehovah* is, there is freedom.+ 18 And all of us, while we with unveiled faces reflect like mirrors the glory of Jehovah,* are transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another,* exactly as it is done by Jehovah* the Spirit.* 2 Corin 3:17-18 NWT (Bold and underline, mine)

So the Bible confirmed by NWT called THE SPIRIT Jehovah, is Jehovah a force?

Your rejection to this will not only ridiculous but expose you more.

The funny thing about you is how you always beating around the bush when facts have been presented to your open eyes.

CAPTIVATOR:
1) A person Can Never Appear IN THE BODILY FORM of a Dove . LUKE 3:22

show Me Where Jehovah appear in a BODILY FORM of any animal?

Now it is BODILY FORM not just a Dove.

Awake 2013 page 6-7 talks about Satan as “The original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, . . . is misleading the entire inhabited earth.”—Revelation 12:9. In fact there is a picture of a Snake with an image of a woman depicting Eve on the page which shows that the Satan appeared to Eve in a BODILY FORM of an Animal yet you believe Satan is a person.

http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/102013204

I think the reasonable question to ask here is, why will HOLY SPIRIT descend in a BODILY FORM of a DOVE? Which I will leave for another day to tutor you Bible.

I can see that you purposely boycott Jehovah being appeared in FORM of CLOUD, so how can a PERSON appear in form of CLOUD?

2) " tongues as if of fire became visible to them and were DISTRIBUTED" Act 2:3 ..... A PERSON can Never be DISTRIBUTED .

Show me where Jehovah is said to be distributed on people?

So DISTRIBUTED is your another headache now.

How Jehovah or Jesus won't distribute Themselves if They will make their abode with more than 10 people who loved Him?

CAPTIVATOR:
Back to the context.

You said back to the context but you never address any of my points.

Mary conceived by the holyspirit ! TRUE OR FALSE ?

SO, IF the holyspirit is a person , the one who got mary Pregnant , WHO IS THE FATHER OF JESUS ?

This is not where we started from,

Do you agree Holy spirit as a person can appear in form of Dove or Fire just as Jehovah who is a person can also appear in form of Cloud and Fire?

Beside go and check your dictionary very well about the meaning of PERSON before make any statement about it.


MODIFY:
I can see you've modified your post to Do you even read the context of that scripture at all

The context is so cleared for a good scriptural student to understand; "The Holy spirit with WILL COME UPON you," the question is what is the meaning of this Idioms COME UPON? This is where you got it wrong since it says come upon and He's a person it means He must sex Mary...SMH

CAPTIVATOR:
Oh sorry, I DONT Deal with abusive beings

" put away from yourselves every kind of malicious bitterness, anger , wrath, screaming and abusive speech, as well as everything in jurious" Eph 4:31

Na today

An educated person who couldn't differentiate between COME UPON and LIE WITH

CAPTIVATOR:
How does this answer my questions .... , [size=14pt]DONT answer questions with questions For Me Again..[/size]

Why will you see it as an answer to your questions when you left your brain somewhere before you spew those thrash.
You said the bolded part but you never follow it.

So u think uv answered the three questions.
.... Lets see

Imaging I didn't answer your questions but you can come with another verses DIFFERENT from the one you posted.

1) psalm 97:2 answers that Jehovah sits on his righteous throne, but Cloud are all around him and Fire goes before him.

- From the above, Jehovah is a person ... He sits on his throne ,

WHY DIDNT the holyspirit have a throne ?

2) Colosian 3:1 says God sits on his throne , and Jesus sits at his right hand , this are real persons who sits on throne, their making abode therefore doesnt mean they will move from heaven to earth , Rather God and Jesus will be with such persons .

Once again, WHY DIDNT the holyspirit have a throne?

Do you agree Holy spirit can appear in a form of Dove or Fire as a person?

That's the point don't shift your ignorance to another place.

3) Calm Down, Ananias heart was filled to do what ? TO LIE ! Nothin like intimacy here, do we read that Ananias Conceived ? NOT AT ALL

Then how can Satan as a person FILL Ananias' heart?

Back to the context
" Holyspirit [size=14pt]will come upon you ( Mary)"[/size] Luke 1: 35 ,holyspirit a person according to you, [size=14pt]will come upon[/size] another female person , and the result will be pregnancy ? haba

" for what has been conceived in her ( a female person) is by holyspirit ( a person)" Matt 1:20.
Okay, holyspirit is the father of JESUS NOT God!

I can't just stop laughing at you, I will take you serious only when you can differentiate between 'COME UPON' and 'LIE WITH'

Cant u see the ABSURDITY of makin the POWER ( Force of doin somethng) of God" Luke 1:35, a person by human tradition?

The only ABSURDITY I see here is an educated person who couldn't differentiate between COME UPON and LIE WITH...SMH

Meaning of 'COME UPON'...

come upon

Also found in: Dictionary/thesaurus, Medical, Legal, Wikipedia.


come upon

v.
To discover or meet someone or something by accident: While walking down the road, I came upon a strange old house.

See also: come, upon

The American Heritage® Dictionary of Phrasal Verbs. Copyright © 2005 by Houghton Mifflin Harcourt Publishing Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Harcourt Publishing Company. All rights reserved.

[size=14pt]come upon somebody/something[/size]

to find or meet someone or something, esp. unexpectedly, We came upon a farmer setting a fire to clear off dead grass from the pasture.

http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/come+upon

CAPTIVATOR:
Lets examine ur claim on the bible verse given ( Act 15: 14, 17)

- Verse 14 said its God who turned his attention to the nations to bring out a people for his name ! Which clearly refer to Jehovah God

- Didnt you see that Verse 15 - 17 is a DIRECT QUOTATION from Amos 9:11,12 WHERE THE NAME " JEHOVAH " appears ? .NOT the fabricated " LORD" concept subtituted by human tradition into most bibles.

Read the conversation between your brother and I we have dealt with this so don't take us back to Egypt.

- INTERESTINGLY, during the event narrated by James which actually Happened to Peter, peter makes it clear that the apostles are ' WITNESSES APPOINTED BY JEHOVAH GOD , who raised Jesus from the dead' Act 10:40,41

Then this proves that Jesus is Jehovah God because Jesus is the one choses and COMMADED those to witness about Him.


Before you derail this thread the point is Acts 15 where James quoted OT scriptures and applied them to GENTILES.

thehomer:
The Holy Spirit impregnated Mary without her consent.

Can you provide evidence for this?

CAPTIVATOR:
RESEARCH more .... The greek word translated 'helper' in John 16:13 carries a masculine gender , thats why its perfectly normal for Jesus to personify the holyspirit with "he" while refferin to "helper" , the holyspirit itself was personified .

See lie so because of helper that's why Jesus used HE instead of IT.

If something is not PERSONIFIED it will be FIGURATIVE for JWs.

Its not uncommon to see such examples of things personified in the scriptures

FOOT speaks ( 1 cor 12: 15)

The EAR talks { 1 cor 12:16}

Trees are said to be rejoicing in psalm 96:11,12

Mountains sing ( Isa 55:12)

Trees Clap Their Hands ( Isa 55:12)

ALL ARE PERSONIFICATION.

But Holy spirit has mind and emotions, is that personification too?

BUT if u still insist according to your dogma that the holyspirit is a person, then answer this.

The person who is living in dogma saying someone else insist in dogma.

In fact if not because you've been brainwashed beyond control you wouldn't have asked these questions.

1) why does the holyspirit appear as a dove, and also as tongue BUT NEVER as a person ?

Why will Jehovah appear in form of CLOUD or FIRE if is a person?

I know you never reason that way

2) since the dogma says holyspirit is a person, and every so - called christian claimed to have it, so how many holyspirits exist since millions of people say that person lives within them?

Since your delusion has sunk you so deep in the ocean of perpetual ignorance, you would have asked first why Jesus and Jehovah who are persons WILL MAKE THEIR ABODE with ALL THOSE who LOVE Them?

Does that mean there are many Jehovahs and Jesuses?

3) if the holyspirit is a person , arent u sayin it had sex with MARY?

Another Jehovah's witness dumb question.

You believe Satan is a person but Satan filled Ananias' heart to lie in Acts 5:3, does it mean that Satan slept with Ananias?

thehomer:
How do you know that the Holy Spirit didn't give him those instructions?

Simply because no scriptural back up for it.

For the last time stop disgracing yourself on this thread.

Please show me the SONG you're talking about here before my post.

You lied again keep it up

9jaforlife:
Cool down... You're frustrated. Here's how the discussion went...

Do you even ask yourself question sometimes about what you typed?

Because I can't see how a reasonable person will be talking as you do here.

I posted a quote about rape from the bible. You disagreed and said it wasn't about rape as shown in the first screenshot.

I quoted part of the bible quote again, asking you this question... "Dividing the spoils of war, a girl or two for each warrior" means what? That's screenshot 2.

In your second screenshot you're the one who advised me to read the WHOLE CHAPTER which I did and replied TO THE SAME POST OF YOURS.

[size=14pt]Then you said verse one was talking about a SONG.[/size] Because I had posted a song from the bible not far from that time, I had the impression that you were referring to that post (of song from the bible). And that was what I was explaining in shot 3, see the circled part. I'd rather disagree with you than lie.

The bolded part is where the problem lies, you said yourself here that I said "VERSE ONE" did you ask yourself am I replying to the song you quoted or YOUR POST THAT I QUOTED?

And it's so evident from my post that I'm not even talking about the song you're talking about because what I wrote is so too clear for an intelligent one to conceive this is what I wrote after you advised me to read the whole chapter;

Analysis of the WHOLE CHAPTER
I then said *verse 1 was talking about a SONG sang BY DEBORAH AND BARAK* which I went ahead to quote the same verse 1 which says *on that day Deborah and Barak son of Abinoan sang this song*

It's obvious that you didn't even know anything about the verse you're talking about if not you'd have known who is Deborah and Barak or did the verse you quoted about song has the names Deborah and Barak?

Just continue to add to your delusion.

[size=14pt]Sharing girls who are war victims is rape,[/size]

I can't just stop laughing at your ignorance. You know yourself that that verse never talked about RAPE that's why you've to come with this awkward explanation.

Bookmark this

the s*ex is not consensual. It was carried out by characters in the bible, whether it was in form of a song or not.

Show me where the verse says they slept with those girls.

Even if you contest this particular quote, I will post more quotes that are more direct. Deuteronomy 20:10-14 and Judges 31: 7-18 are more explicit about rape.

You know that that verse wasn't directly talking about RAPE.

I hope you'll understand these ones too

Don't get angry with me, direct your anger at your christian brethren who go about saying that Islam encourages rape but the bible is only full of love and forgiveness things. I'm only following their example!

Angry with someone who doesn't know what s/he is talking about.

So because of this you must FORCE RAPE in the verse that doesn't even talk about RAPE.

9jaforlife:
So what

What has that got to do with the topic of discussion? [size=14pt]The fact that I referred to you as a she makes it obvious that I thought you were female.[/size] Must you fight about everything? Gosh you're soo petty! And you call yourself a guy?? Where is the wisdom in this? Funny you're asking me to get wisdom

I can't just stop laughing when I read the bolded and said to myself and this is coming from an intelligent being who thought he doesn't need wisdom.

9jaforlife:
God bless you! When these people see embarrassing things in the bible they start behaving like r*etards.. See the way she's going back and forth about a clear quote! Smh

You're an embarrassment to Muslim instead of you to find something cover your face and sneak out of this thread you're still boasting upon your delusion.

Not only about you and Songs of Solomon but despite the fact that you've quoted me more than two times you couldn't see that my moniker is (m) but you can still address my as SHE.

You seriously need to get wisdom fast.

Binb:
so what exactly is the verse talking about since you claimed it is not talking about rape

Did you even see anything like RAPE in that verse?
Beside the song was sang to praise God which is a poetic song.

Second question, what is the moral of the verses in the bible talking about inces.t (and they are many)

If only you're being open-minded than your brothers then you can digest my point here.

Firstly, Christians will never deny those verses I mean that they won't claim it's not in their Bible.

Secondly, you must know that those verses were DESCRIPTIVE and not PRESCRIPTIVE.

Thirdly, there's no moral about those verses BUT WHAT YOU NEED TO KNOW ALSO is that NEITHER did God have pleasure on them, that's why we aren't commanded to practice them.

Fourthly, Bible contains a lot of historical event ON HOW GOD dealt with a particular tribe in their SERVICES to God, their humanity activities, their weaknesses and strengths and their good and bad.

Fifthly, the writers of the Old Testament were not written on their OWN initiatives which can make them bias by chosen to write the GOOD part ONLY and ignored their BAD side through their human nature BUT the writers were carried along by Holy spirit to write what God wants.

Sixthly, why will God allow such things to be written in His inspired Word? This is the main question.

Lastly, God informed us through Paul that NIV: "For everything that was written in the past was written to teach us, so that through the endurance taught in the Scriptures and the encouragement they provide we might have hope. Romans 15:4

9jaforlife:
If the bible finds the quote suitable enough to grace it on its pages, why should I be ashamed to post it here

Your case is pathetic, does the verse talk about rape? That's the question.

YOU are the confused one! [size=14pt]I posted songs of Solomon[/size] and this bible quote in case you missed it...

See broad day LIE @bolded part, please show me where you posted SONGS OF Solomon

Yet you said below that I was the one who referred you to Songs of Solomon and you corrected me that your quote is from Judges not Songs of Solomon.

Bible Condones Rape of War Victims
"Are they not finding and dividing the spoil-- a girl or two for each warrior, the spoil of colored garments for Sisera, the spoil of an embroidered garment or two for my neck?" Judges 5:30

[size=14pt]You went ahead and referred me to rape in songs of Solomon and I simply corrected you that this was the quote I was referring to!![/size]

What do I need to say again after reading this your open day light lies which is evident that you're just typing what you've been programmed to do.

Did I refer you to Songs of Solomon or I simply tell you that the verse you quoted was a SONG SANG BY DEBORAH AND BARAK?

Muslims always prove to us that Qur'an has wiped away their brains and replaced it with confusions and lies.

Get life man!

RikoduoSennin:
Key: JW is more than JUST a literature group. You are not familiar with their early history. Members reference other bible translation but because of unified teaching-one translation is used (Jehovah is not a God of disorder). Try to understand why JW says what they say @ JW.ORG

@bolded-because of this unified teaching how many Greek scholars participated and approved the ONLY translation that JWs used?

I care to know...

You have not personally compare different translations with NWT, neither have you read the prologue/appendix to these bible translations. Research from both side before you make conclusion- one sided opinion is flawed.

I believe this statement is a joke because we do compare many TRANSLATIONS with NWT and the differences are so glaring and also we do know what Greek scholars say about the NWT in fact the most astonish part is the Dr. M. Mertzger Bruce whom JWs always cited as a prove, see what Bruce says about NWT;

"Far more pernicious in this same verse is the rendering, “… and the Word was a god,” with the following footnote: “‘A god.’ In contrast with ‘the God.’” It must be stated quite frankly that, if the Jehovah’s Witnesses take this translation seriously, they are polytheists. In view of the additional light which is available during this age of Grace, such a representation is even more reprehensible than were the heathenish, polytheistic errors into which ancient Israel was so prone to fall." Erroneous Translations pt 1, A Biblical and Theological Appraisal By Bruce M. Metzger
http://www.bible-researcher.com/metzger.jw.html

JMAN05:
All true Christians are witnesses of Jehovah.

Do you yourself agree with that?

Ok let me agree with it but my question now is WHO ARE THE TRUE CHRISTIANS according to the scriptures?

Go read that article from beginning.

And you think I didn't do this before I opened this thread.

You think am like you? I have said here that your understanding is poor, that's why you couldn't understand that the context clearly is talking about God. Or you simply are not being frank to yourself.

Why will you insert YOUR OWN word when the author didn't do so and you couldn't indicate that it's your word?

That was exactly what Christ says, [size=14pt]and am telling you that witnessing about Jesus is witnessing about Jesus.[/size] About the wonderful things God did through Jesus.

Are you serious about the bolded part, confused or mistaken?

God elevated that name Jesus. [size=14pt]He couldn't tell them to bear his Father's name cos they are His witnesses as far as they be replaced those who had that privilege.[/size] Even as a natural Jew, they were Jehovah's witnesses.

@bolded-In fact I have to give up here for your double standard point.

This is the question from my point you replied to

"the point is not THE QUOTATION OF OT by James The point is WHO DID James HAVE IN MIND Before QUOTING from OT?

Whose name will the gentiles bear according to the verses you've been quoting since?

Here are the verses we are talking about "14 Symeon hath rehearsed how first God visited the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.,... 17 That the residue of men may seek after the Lord, And all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called,

So according to you James sited from OT which is talking about the Jehovah and from here both HIS NAME & MY NAME mean Jehovah's name WHICH IS THE BASIS for JWs to claim that TRUE CHRISTIANS are also witness of Jehovah since they (True Christians) as a spiritual Israelite now replaced the natural Israelite.

So going by your analogy and explanation of those verses the TRUE CHRISTIANS supposed to BEAR THE NAME of the FATHER (which you called Jehovah) NOT THE EXALTED NAME OF the Lord Jesus Christ, now you're speaking from other side of your mouth that He couldn't tell them TO BEAR HIS FATHER'S NAME. So now that He couldn't say so, why ARE YOU CALLING YOURSELF Jehovah's Witness?

In fact this is the bone of my contention that JWs have MISINTERPRETED these verses which is evident from your post.

The fact is James quoted those verses to buttress his point of how the OT prophecies find its fulfilment in Jesus Christ which is also the reason why Jesus can tell Paul that he will BEAR HIS NAME before the Gentiles.

Now your gross misunderstanding of the scriptures is plainly opened to you.

just SMH...

No. Out of anger over your deliberate blindness.

Do you rather believe the scripture when it says in that verse "kill" and "dead"?

The point is that Jesus death and resurrection are God's work. So bearing witness to it is bearing witness to God.



You ignored the point of my comment.

Peter made mention of so many things God did in the life of Jesus, and the scriptures include all that as the "thorough WITNESS" Peter bored. That is one prove of witness about God you dispute.

The Luke you quoted is in no way against the fact that God raise Jesus Christ. Point of correction, from the scripture God raised Jesus. Acts 3:15.

That Luke said it was "written" that Christ will die and be raised.

Who inspired that prophesy that was written?

Peter acknowledged that God was the one who really raised Jesus. That was Peter's point. In this, the prophets agree (hos 6:1, 2).



Christians mostly, and The Way.

And as we bear witness about Jesus, we bear witness for the One who sent him forth, whose delight Jesus will make have success. Isai 53:10



Oga that is a paraphrase. Nawa o.

From the context, it was God Peter had in mind. He was in fact using a scripture applied to natural Israelites and applied it to the new nation. Barne's note I showed you made the same point.

Jesus is spoken of as calling, but these are people whom God want to be called. John 6:44

The one who ultimately call believers is thus, Jehovah.



Jesus stated that he cannot do a single thing of his own initiative, he does what his Father taught him to do. He is a son well tutored by his Father. John 8:28
God gave him a command that Jesus stuck to. John 14:31

He confesses, "what I teach is not mine". John 7:16

So all in all, everything has always been to the glory of Jehovah.



Of course, true Christians bear Jesus name. Since Jehovah who they witness his name had elevated Jesus name, He procures His glory through that name too. God gave Jesus great privileges. But all is to His glory.



That message included making his Father's name known. John 17:6, 26



Thank God you know that one.



I take the yes part. I wonder what you are still arguing.



Was Peter convinced that God performed powerful works through Jesus? Is Paul convinced that God created the world?

When they proclaim these, what do you call them?

Consult the Barnes note I gave you for further explanation of what is involved in declaring excellences as used in that verse. If what should be done there is out of conviction, then fix up your question.



Know when the end will come? No.

But the Father can grant him many privileges cos He loves him. John 5:20. But the Father never granted him power to do all He does.

What his Father did not teach him, he won't do. John 7:28



Witnesses of Jehovah. Please add "true" Christians.



A natural Israelite like Jesus and his apostle need not be reminded of what they are as a nation.

Since they declare the work of Jehovah as performed in Jesus, they are fulfilling the work of witnesses of Jehovah. Of course, Peter used the word applied to Jehovah's witnesses upon them. Showing they now bear that name the natural Jew bore. They are also God's name people.

I think we have achieved the purpose of the thread

You statement above made my tired of replying your next post because it evident that you don't know what you're saying.

Binb:
is the song not part of the "inspired" Bible? so there are some portions of the bible that are conveniently attributed to singers. Abeg who are the singers. just curious

It's part of the Bible but the point you're missing is, THE VERSE NEVER TALKED ABOUT RAPING SOMEONE.

It's a song COMPOSED BY DEBORAH in fact had it been you read from verse 1-31 you would've understand the point the LYRICS is pointing to.

Let me quote few verses for you;

"...19 “Kings came, they fought,
the kings of Canaan fought.
At Taanach, by the waters of Megiddo,
they took no plunder of silver.
20 From the heavens the stars fought,
from their courses they fought against Sisera.
21 The river Kishon swept them away,
the age-old river, the river Kishon.
March on, my soul; be strong!
22 Then thundered the horses’ hooves—
galloping, galloping go his mighty steeds.
23 ‘Curse Meroz,’ said the angel of the Lord.
‘Curse its people bitterly,
because they did not come to help the Lord,
to help the Lord against the mighty.’


24 “Most blessed of women be Jael,
the wife of Heber the Kenite,
most blessed of tent-dwelling women.
25 He asked for water, and she gave him milk;
in a bowl fit for nobles she brought him curdled milk.
26 Her hand reached for the tent peg,
her right hand for the workman’s hammer.
She struck Sisera, she crushed his head,
she shattered and pierced his temple.
27 At her feet he sank,
he fell; there he lay.
At her feet he sank, he fell;
where he sank, there he fell—dead.


28 “Through the window peered Sisera’s mother;
behind the lattice she cried out,
‘Why is his chariot so long in coming?
Why is the clatter of his chariots delayed?’
29 The wisest of her ladies answer her;
indeed, she keeps saying to herself,
30 ‘Are they not finding and dividing the spoils:
a woman or two for each man,
colorful garments as plunder for Sisera,
colorful garments embroidered,
highly embroidered garments for my neck—
all this as plunder?’


31 “So may all your enemies perish, Lord!
But may all who love you be like the sun
when it rises in its strength.”

Then the land had peace forty years. Judges 5:19-31 NIV

If you pay close attention to these verses you can find a lot of figurative expression here as I Bolden them.

My point here is the verse your brother quoted wasn't in anyway talking about RAPE but pure MISUNDERSTANDING of that verse.

TopsyKrete:
"Where was God coming from before HE started creation"?

But seriously, where was God coming from?

Where do you think God is going or do you read it somewhere that God is going somewhere?

9jaforlife:
I didn't talk about rape in songs. Here is the quote about rape...

"Are they not finding and dividing the spoil-- a girl or two for each warrior, the spoil of colored garments for Sisera, the spoil of an embroidered garment or two for my neck?" Judges 5:30

It is just so shameful that you can still repeat this.

In fact the underlined & bolded part show how confused you are.