₦airaland Forum

RikoduoSennin:
At bold section, you did not mention the True side. Any way since you are so fixated on the expressions (take literally) "WITH MY OWN HANDS"- please tell me this, Did Jesus/ Whoever create the Earth and Heaven use they Literal/Physical hands to create everything or used Literal words to do the creating?

Because if you says Physical hands- I like to know how Jesus became called "God's word" [size=14pt]and our Genesis refer to Light being created by just "an uttered word".[/size]

If you say he did not physically use his hand to create everything, meaning "with my own hand" is just a figurative expression with it own meaning just like "With my own sweat".

Please enlighten me, I am willing and eager to be taught by you.

The TRUE is the sweat you mentioned.

Please at the bolded-So you know God created everything with His utterance...

The point isn't about physical/literal meaning of those phrases BUT direct claim by YHWH to involve in the creation which is far beyond the illustration you're trying to give.

Through out the Bible we see different part of YHWH being mentioned to involve in creation and the astonish part is that JESUS was associated with ALL these parts.

Now tell me when YHWH said He created the world with HIS POWER is it literal or real? If real The Bible says Jesus is the POWER of God, then tell me how can a created being (according to JW) be the power of God?

Its odd you quoted from a different bible translation that is not very common. I would have preferred KJV/NKJV.

This is pure misconception about me, I quote any version of the Bible including NWT.

Please look at the bold section of Verse 30, Compare that with Genesis 1:26 " LET US make man in OUR image" and John 5:17,19 "My Father is WORKING STILL, and I am WORKING....TRULY, TRULY, the Son can do NOTHING of his OWN ACCORD BUT ONLY WHAT HE SEES THE FATHER DOING; For whatever he (The Father) does that the Son does Likewise"

Two beings working together. One depends on the other before he does something while the other is the source (one cannot do he is accord but the other can). The Father is the architect While the Son is the "Master Worker" or Agency/Medium used in Creating everything.

The question to ask is why will God use a created being to assist Him in creation when He can do it ALONE (Which is what the Bible says)?
Again JW believe the phrase "Let US..." means God was talking to Angels(Plural), they do this to boycott the PLURALITY of Elohim which means the name of God contains is in PLURAL (as TRINITARIAN CLAIMED) not in SINGULAR.
Lastly, the point we are considering here is DID YHWH DIRECTLY INVOLVE IN CREATION?

Lol...the Father is the ARCHITECT but the Proverb 8:28-29 says "In His(YHWH) strengthening clouds above, In His(YHWH) making strong fountains of the deep. 29 In His(YHWH) strengthening clouds above, In His(YHWH) making strong fountains of the deep"
This is a direct action being carried out by YHWH not just DESIGN because Architect ONLY DESIGN.

Lastly, why would a CREATED BEING working with UNCREATED YHWH before the creation can be brought forth?

So before Jesus became Flesh he was just "A Literal WORD" or "Something like A spokesman- God's word". Please which of these Apply so that I can understand how "everything was made through him".
The above statement you made left out this important question "What exaltly was "the word of God" like during creation?

Nothing like SPOKEMAN as JW put it just to prove Jesus Christ is created and became God's spoke person, EVERYTHING about God can never be compared to man.
If God wants to communicate to man He can make His OWN Word audible and If He wants the same Word to be too hard for us to hear like the Israelite in the wilderness He can the truth is "The WORD of God is LIVING and sharper than any two-edge sword Heb 4:12,..."...through a word of God--living and remaining--to the age." 1 Peter 1:23

Can The Living Word of God be created?

Let me expose your weak understanding about the scriptures again

RikoduoSennin:
A man tells his friend I built this House with my own sweat/hands. Did he mean he was the one who did the bricklayer, electrical, roofing with his physical hands- TRUE or FALSE?

TRUE and FALSE!
FALSE in a sense that NO CLIENT will ever claimed to build a project WITH HIS OWN HANDS
Though we can see many figurative expression being used by individual who owns a project i.e I built it with my last kobo, I built it with my own money, I built it with my last breath e.t.c BUT NOT WITH MY OWN HANDS.

Jesus said "My Father keeps working and I work"- John 5:17, Read Proverb 8:22-30 "and I came beside him as a MASTER WORKER". Jesus did NOTHING of his own initiative- Read John 5:19,20,30;

Do you even know that Proverb 8:22-30 didn't favour your argument here as you always misapply scriptures? See the reason...also pay close attention to how the MASTER WORKER made His statement.
NB:- I will insert YHWH where He speaks so that at the end you can tell us whether YHWH is lying when He said He created EVERYTHING BY HIMSELF

22¶ Jehovah possessed me--the beginning of His way, Before His works since then.
23 From the age I was anointed, from the first, From former states of the earth.
24 In there being no depths, I was brought forth, In there being no fountains heavy with waters,
25 Before mountains were sunk, Before heights, I was brought forth.
26 While He(YHWH) had not made the earth, and out-places, And the top of the dusts of the world.
27 In His(YHWH) preparing the heavens I am there, In His(YHWH) decreeing a circle on the face of the deep,
28 In His(YHWH) strengthening clouds above, In His(YHWH) making strong fountains of the deep,
29 In His(YHWH) setting for the sea its limit, And the waters transgress not His(YHWH) command, In His(YHWH) decreeing the foundations of earth,
30 Then I am near Him, a workman, And I am a delight--day by day. Rejoicing before Him at all times, Proverb 8:22-30 YLT

John 1:3 " Everything was made THROUGH him (Jesus)" , Why was the word "through" used?

Everything was made through THE WORD OF GOD which becomes Jesus in the FLESH this is how to understand it.

RikoduoSennin:
Then stop replying me then- if it waste your precious time so much. You were hoping to WIN argument not communicate your thought/beliefs like I am doing. (I don't expect much from you- so I am not troubled at all)

Not about replying you but your shallow explanation of the scriptures is worrisome.

Please Check the original Greek version of Revelation 1:8 and you will find "Lord THE God" there, Then point me to where else Jesus was addressed as Lord the God.

Lol...now turn to the Greek, the point is WHO IS COMING?

The Essence is, [size=14pt]Even with all his Divinity Jesus has a personal God[/size] he said so himself numerous times not because of his humanity because he was in possession of his Divinity also.

This is the reason I said you have shallow explanation of the scriptures, DIVINITY means Jesus is a DEITY can you tell us how Jesus is a DEITY and YHWH is also a DEITY? Maybe you didn't know that the point we are trying to bring out is THE DEITY OF JESUS Christ which you've already confirmed.

Does that also Mean he still "Prays and Worship" the Father as his personal God even though he his now in Heaven with him (Just like he did on Earth?

You didn't address the first point YHWH gave Jesus the Revelation and Jesus gave Angel and Angel gave John, which means everything in Revelation is about the Father now how were you be able to extract Jesus' statement from all what YHWH gave?

While on Earth He prayed to the Father because He needed the help of the Father if the need arises in heaven He will do so.

NB: Please STOP attacking my religion. I don't attack your church or Faith do I? Address me next time. Why do people belief JW members can't think for their self? [size=14pt]Or is it because we all share the same beliefs/united in worship? If the latter is the case,[/size] we are flattered.

I must expose the lies your organization is propagating
The bolded part contradicting Watchtower because according to Watchtower only JW is a true follower of Yahweh so other Christian denomination are false according to JW, so what can you say about that?

You like argument a lot because you want to PROVE A POINT (without checking to see if the "point" is relevant).

Did Jesus have 'Fellows' or not according to Hebrew 1:9, that is my interest. Your interest lies in who the Fellows are. If we don't agree in the first instance, of what improtance is the second instance? If you want to ignore my question of If Jesus has Fellows/Companions- then its up to you to tell me the answer to your question- who are the fellows?

Tell me my points that are not relevant here...
The bone of my contention is YOU FIRST WRONGLY APPLY Heb 1:9 to mean Jesus has fellows which can't make Him to be God, and I went ahead to tell you that the companions there wasn't about His DIVINTY (Beside JW always used Heb 1:9 to prove Jesus to be Angel Michael because according to they were both Angel) and I referred you to Hebrew 2 to see who are these companions.

Yes through Creation. Jesus is never the Father, he NEVER claimed to be The Father, did he now?

Can you see your life? what you create is not you but what you beget is you, So Jesus cannot be begotten through creation.
How does the Father begot Jesus?
Then who says Jesus is the Father?

Being Equal is not the Issue, the Issue is Why are they all called "Son of God". (The reason behind that statement speaks a lot)

Even believers are also called sons of God, what does that mean?

[size=14pt]Only one, The ONLY TRUE GOD- Jehovah The Almighty.[/size] How many superior rulers does a Nigerian have- Only one- the President- others like VP, Governors etc are under The president.

Nigeria has only one superior ruler which is THE PRESIDENT, now YOU'VE ALREADY SAID Jesus is A SUPERIOR GOD can you see how confuse you are? I know you will come with another excuse.

johnydon22:
How about showing me, we both do not need to believe we have joysticks, we both know we do...
If their are evidence for any god it wont be termed belief anymore, it will be knowing (untmost certainty) but their is not hence belief (faith)

Your first statement is both physical whereas God is a spirit which is not VISIBLE to ordinary eyes which required another means to know Him just as kidneys are not physical but required another process to find it.

And am sure muslims still make this exact claim for allah hence they conclude yahweh is false...
You see that your conviction is based on your sentimental attachment to one particular fable?

Well I won't argue with you about this whether they claimed it or not BUT if both Christians and Muslims (according to you) can communicate with their God then they (Christian and Muslims) Just don't believe BUT EMPIRICALLY prove it so what we left with is WHICH GOD is the TRUE God not that God doesn't exist again.

And what are the evidences?
A book? prrrrrrrrrrrf ya right!!

More than a book personal encountered

see my first reply.. Or better still divide the red see again show me a talking donkey hahahaha...chai..

Why will He divide the red sea/make donkey talk when the need for it doesn't arise?
God has parted red sea in many people's life or made the donkey of worried, hopeless and rejected people talk today. I know you will still call this delusion.

exactly the same way the greeks claim.their myths are true even though its plain myth.
Its dead funny when you discard the Hercules story as myth but believes the samson story as true even.though the hercules story predates that of samson and the later probably was plagiarized from the former..
Their is no amount of belief that can ever make these true...

Well Myth still remains imaginable BUT what I'm telling you is people have found God above just BELIEVE.

johnydon22:
Their is no evidence that their is a god. not zeus, allah, yahweh or horus etc...
All we have is mythical ancient writings and impossible fables very peculiar to the culture that this god or gods are exclusive to.

What type of evidence do you need before you believe that the God or gods exist?

Now some people might see it ok to Believe (conviction that something is true without empirical evidence) any of these ideas (gods) and fables by faith dismissing the others as we have seen in the cases of christians believing in.yahweh and not allah and muslims doing the reverse.
Though both religions just believe by faith their respective god ideas.

First you mistakenly misapply the word "EMPIRICAL" because empirical can also means BASED ON EXPERIENCE.
Lastly, Christians can't believe in Allah of Islam simply because Yahweh is still speaking to those who love and seek Him which makes Islam false.

Now atheism entails not having a conviction that something implausible is true even though their is no evidence for it.

Well that's for Atheist.

So believing something implausible as true does not and can never make it true..

So did Christians ever tell you that they ONLY believe but NO evidence for THEIR BELIEVE?

We ask theists to provide evidence for their respective God even though we know that they have none.

So you want a theist to enter Lab and begin to perform experiment to bring God out or in what standard do you base your evidence?

You may choose to believe the jewish myth, or arabic myth or greek myth..that is good for you but we call it myth as it is and nothing more...

If you like call it Myth from now till you die that won't put God out of existence because people have found God beyond just BELIEVE.
I know you may say it's delusion well TRUTH IS ALWAYS TRUE.

The only thing that pains me most in discussing with you is my precious time you wasted.

RikoduoSennin:
Lie? I believe Revelations 1:1 answers that question well.
God (YHWH) gave Jesus, Jesus gave Angels, Angels gave John through signs.
Verses leading to verse 8 did not indicate Jesus talking to John yet.

So because YHWH gave Jesus it means it's YHWH who is speaking, when verse 8 identifies who is speaking "...and which is to come, the Almighty"

The last sentence in the book of Revelation is "...Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

You mean people like you not the Apostles I think. Because the Jews/ Jesus' disciples believe in ONLY ONE YHWH- Ephesians 4:6

So YHWH exist "more than one" you say, How then can "more than one" be equal to one/ the same like you suggested?

So prior to Jesus' earthly existence there was one YHWH, then through Fission there were two and later three, is that it?

You've answered this yourself below.

They knew YHWH used a Master worker to create all things. Hints- "Let us make", "Wisdom as master worker", "all things made THROUGH". YHWH has continously used his messengers/Angels to carry out his works.

Lol....So let us make which JWs interpreted as Sons of God to disprove the PLURALITY of God is what you interpreted as MASTER WORKER...
Please show me the verse in Hebrew Scriptures where the phrase "all things made THROUGH"

So the wisdom is it a person or intellect?

Facts: While Jesus was on Earth he was not just a Man, [size=14pt]he was also 'A' God too (fullness of the divinity dwell on him).[/size] You fail to notice that Even after Jesus resurrection and ascension to Heaven HE STILL CLAIM TO HAVE A GOD HE ANSWERS TO - John 20:17, Revelation 3:2,12.

Please if FULLNESS OF DIVINITY dwell in CHRIST, so what is the essence of your argument?

So you see Jesus having a personal God stretch beyond his human existence or are you implying that Jesus was not a God when Revelation was written?

[b]This is another dubious act of JWs you can use this verse as Jesus' statement but you claimed it is YHWH who gave Jesus then Jesus gave angel then to John Which the whole book of Revelation was spoken by YHWH through Jesus then angel then John.

The answer to your question is Jesus still possessed His HUMANITY in heaven.

Well you don't have to believe me, just believe what Hebrew 1:9 says that " Jesus has Fellows/companions" except you think that scripture does not refer to Jesus or what did your own bible say there.

In your statement below, you said [b]"YHWH is SUPERIOR to Jesus and Jesus is SUPERIOR to angel and man" So who are the FELLOWS/COMPANIONS of Jesus I still want to show you that you don't understand what that verse means before you applied it.

I don't get you, you are avoiding the issue. Even a little child knows the answer to the above-NB I am not contesting that.

I am saying Luke 1:32 clearly call Jesus "Son of the Most High" and not the "Most high" himself
who is clearly identified by YHWH at Psalms 83:18.

How then YHWH begat Jesus His son, is it through creation or what?
NB:-what you create can never be you but what you beget is you?

The difference lies in the phrase "Son of". Why was Adam and the Angels called "Sons of God", why is Jesus ALWAYS referred to as "the son of "

Was Adam and Angels equal Jesus in everyway as the were both Sons?

YHWH Never appeared to Abraham in the form of man? [size=14pt]Those where his angel representative[/size] that spoke to men of old. Or did he Fission another copy of himself different from Jesus?

The bolded part says it all.

How did you come about your conclusion of Malachi 3:6? Because Jesus clearly stated that "God is a SPIRIT" and he his In Heaven.

As per his promise: He promised Abraham not to destroy Sodom if 40 righteous exists later he changed it to 10 at Abraham's request, did he not?

Your ignorance of the scriptures makes me tired of typing, how can you say the CONVERSATION between YHWH and Abraham proved that YHWH changed His promise

YHWH is superior to Jesus, Jesus is superior to Angels, Angels his superior to Man (me)- How many superior God do I have- Jesus answers "I am going to My God and Your(RikoduoSennin's) God"- Every other Gods does not matter, since I ONLY PRAY TO THE ALMIGHTY.

The question is HOW MANY SUPERIOR GOD do you have?

MONNICO:
Please,can any Nigerians educate me on the life in BAHAMAS?

This one that nobody has commented since morning, hope all is LG (life is good) for Nigerian over there

credibleGod:
Nairaland @ justwise won't encourage my explanation but I wish u good luck

Is it for him or for me?
Why can't you do your own part?

credibleGod:
yes it is the truth unless you av a sponsor invitation.

You didn't reply my post, I asked what are your terms and conditions for sponsorship?

bingbagbo:
and that JESUS created all things

hmmm which spirit reveals things for the jws

If you read JWs' Bible you will see this obvious incoherency there,

The Author of Hebrew quoted Psalms but JWs change Heb 1:8 to "God is your throne..."

Dubious people...

You purposely boycott some of my post.

RikoduoSennin:
Now, that statement there was not made by Jesus, it was made by YHWH.

See another lie, Who spoke to John?

You mean, The Father and The Son are not the SAME but they are both The ONE called YHWH, How? In What Sense?

Absolutely YES! I repeat "It was the advent of Jesus on Earth that people know Yahweh exists more than one.

Because the Jews worshipped YHWH as their national God who spoke to them, they knew the Messiah is different from their national God- Acts 2:22-24.

SMH...did they know also that the Messiah is the CREATOR of all things or YHWH is only the creator?

So then, we should not DOWN PLAY Jesus' having his own Personal God (YHWH) by bringing up his humanity as an excuse. How can a God have his God whom he answers to yet still called an Almighty?

I can see how you misunderstood my point here, I said the Father becomes Jesus God at His HUMANITY not when Jesus had not taken on flesh. So the divinity of Jesus isn't about His life on EARTH after the DIVINE EVARLASTING LIFE had taken on flesh.

The scriptures never called Jesus "The Almighty" because that would be Fallacious.

It does.

It should be an implication on your side not mine because the purpose you asked that question is to buttress Hebrew 1:9.

Lolzzz...please you believe Jesus was the FIRSTCREATED of God, so can you tell us now who are the FELLOWS of Jesus Christ? because you believe Jesus has fellows which is the reason why you FIRST QUOTED Heb 1:9 not me

Psalms 83:18 " The Most High is called Yahweh"
Luke 1:32- " Jesus is the SON of the Most High NOT the Most High himself WHO gave him the throne of David"

See how you keep exposing your ignorance was the throne of David given to Jesus before His life on Earth or after He became Human?

Malachi 3:6 " YHWH does not CHANGE- he does not change his form from Spirit to flesh"

See another ignorance in display, Yahweh appeared to Abraham in form of Man does it mean Yahweh change?
Beside what Malachi 3:6 was addressing is Yahweh will never change IN HIS PROMISE not even talking about NATURE.

Jesus is [size=14pt]a superior God[/size] to every other Gods EXCEPT the one he calls his GOD/YHWH.

I got this from your previous post "he is Almighty God? Jesus never claimed to be Almighty God. [size=14pt]He was sent by a superior God.[/size]

Lolzzz so how many SUPERIOR GOD do you have?
If Jesus is a SUPERIOR God why the NWT translated John 1:1 as a god?

justwise:
@Emusan

Be very careful, don't be a victim.

I gat you, thanks brother!

olawalehenry:
Can you pls explain more on the two kind of Sins

One is of the NATURE and the other is of DISOBEDIENT to the Law.

and can I tell you that from here is when death reigned till the time of Moses when the law came into being, and I don't think that he begged God for the forgiveness of his sin.

So since you THINK that he didn't, why asked whether God forgave him?

aottravels:
i will mail u how i routes it ok

That'll be Ok by me, thanks

aottravels:
@ Emusan, i thought have u given u price even mail u, if u want the ticket that u should get back to me via my contact at my signature....the price is six hundred plus

You told me that I have to pass through US at maimi and said though you will still do more research about it.

olawalehenry:
Hi Fellow Nairalander,
I was just ruminating on the creation of God, and and now stumbled on man and the Dominion, right and other things which God gave Adam........Now we all knew that he gave his dominion to the devil, Now my question is DID GOD FORGIVE THE SIN OF ADAM AND EVE?
WHATS YOUR VIEW PLS

Do you know that sin is of two types?

Did Adam ask for the forgiveness of sin?

Your answers to these questions will shield more light to your question.

credibleGod:
yes ooo God is good.

How can someone get a sponsor?

jdilight:
No date of travel and date of return, if your to come back.

I mean any day in March and be back by June.

Thanks

aottravels:
Do u ve America visa cos d place is very close to Bahamas so most airlines goes to Maimi first but i will stil be working on it if is just having Turks and Caicos visa

No I don't!

Alright thanks for that

aottravels:
I never said u cant google it but if u are going to let say Mexico, how to routes it without having issue of transit visa and so on like dat

You didn't reply me I asked, What about Abuja to Turks and Caicos Islands by March?

aottravels:
Yes, they can easily google it but not with some routes like somebody going to Port of Spain or Mexico, Brazil and so on like that, i guess that was what the Op is trying to address but dont kow why he is not responding but kindly ask ur questions about routes and fare that u can not easily google i will address them for you thks

What about Abuja to Turks and Caicos Islands by March?

AgentOfAllah:
Oh! yes of course, predicating the whole premise of your argument on having "faith" in an undefined subject, and requiring your opponent to do the same is exactly what should be termed "mature discussion" for the intelligent ones.

I would actually like to see you have a go at intelligent discussions! Haha

Then what lead to the point of talking about FAITH?

You don't know where we started from you show up and begin to type another thing.

frank317:
ya i saw that and knew it was a mistake. my reply still stands. besides, i never said man will define the process, i said i am waiting in the creator to do all that. the choice is his, if he dosent, there is nothing i can do about it.

But the creator has already done that.

i dont even know the nature of the creator... i know nothing about him/it. but whatever he is, whenever he wants me to see or hear him... I will and i will not doubt him.

Then do you think your nature can allow this creator's nature comes in contact with you?

I dont see what my believe has to do with the existence of the creator or are you saying he only exist when i believe? that makes no sense to me.

if he exists, it has got nothing to do with my believe, once he wants to reach me, he will, weather i believe or not.

if the creator is 100% ready to reach me... cool. i am here and waiting.

i will never answer that question because weather i believe or not should have nothing to do with the existence of the creator. besides like i said before 'I dont want to believe that there is a creator, [size=14pt]i want to know that there is a creator'.[/size] its not a matter of believe to me.

I can see you keep dodging my question

@bolded-Then how will you do it?

In the process of fighting against the word BELIEVE you keep throwing in more confusion.

AgentOfAllah:
Do you know Thor the Hammer god? He hammered your creator out of existence. You may doubt what I'm saying, but that's your business. You're just worshiping a dead creator. How do I know this? FAITH. [size=14pt]I acquired faith in Thor[/size] and he showed me the grave of your creator. You too need faith to see what I saw. Do you now have faith in Thor?

@bolded-why calling yourself Atheist?
This is a mature discussion and not for unintelligent one.

frank317:
Good... I am still waiting on the creator to define the process of how i will know him, thought i said this before.

I'm sorry there was a mistake in my post and I've made the correction instead of CAN'T I wrote CAN

The creator should be more real than my mother.

Are you of the same nature that the creator must be real like your Mother?

if he is ready for me to see or hear him... i will and i will not have reason to doubt him.

Do you believe that the creator exists? I think that's the paramount thing.

How do you want something that is not existing to reveal Himself to you? This is out of logic.

all this faith issue makes no sense to me. if the creator wants me to see him... i will see him that's all.

The creator is 100% ready for you but the first thing is do you believe the creator exists?

You never answer this question.

frank317:
are you the creator?

I'm not.

i dont know of any process, if you think i am lying.... thats your problem not mine

Alright sir!

frank317:
sorry, that is not any process.

To you it might not but to the creator it is because man can't define the process of how to know the creator IT IS the creator who will define how man can know Him.

I dont need faith to believe my mum gave birth to me. I know she gave birth to me.

You don't need faith because you can see a physical being in front of you claiming she did it.

why will i need faith to believe in the creator

You can't see the creator with you naked eyes so YOU MUST FIRST HAVE FAITH in you that THE CREATOR exits.
If you THINK something is not existing why would you have FAITH in the thing in the first place?

frank317:
once again, what process. I never told you i know of any creator's process. It seems you are not reading my post. Did i tell you anything about the creator's process?

You didn't tell me (Though I knew you know about unless if you just want to deny) BUT I was the one TELLING YOU that you need to pass through some processes before you can see and hear from this creator...SINCE YOU SAID UNTIL YOU SEE OR HEAR FROM THE CREATOR that you will believe.

again.... what process

The one you reply to

Hello everyone I have been granted admission in Geothe Institute to learn German for two months, what I want to know now is can I find something be doing within this period or even extend my stay?

Thanks

AgentOfAllah:
Stop dancing around. Who/what's the creator and what is this creator's "process"?

I should stop dancing around so that you can continue

Does that bolded part make any sense to you?

The first process is FAITH-the believe that the creator exist...do you have faith?