₦airaland Forum

safarigirl:
danke

Bitte schon

safarigirl:
lol....nauwelijks

That's good...
guten tag!

safarigirl:
Danke

Sprenchen sie German?

Actually, you never attempt any of the questions I asked you but just let me just your post.

ayoku777:
I'm getting seriously tired of typing.

Likewise me too

To beget and to pro-create are the same thing. If it is the "-create" in "pro-create" that is the issue, you can replace it with beget. Unless you don't agree Jesus is also begotten.

the question I asked here is in what way was Jesus BEGOTTEN is it through creation or what?

Mind you what God beget IS ALSO GOD (the same nature) just as man beget man (the same nature).

The purpose of asking you those questions is to know how you understand the word BEGOTTEN

Are you guys trying to say there is no objectivity in spiritual matters?

How come Jesus used everyday events and analogy to explain the kingdom of God?

What we call parables are everyday analogies describing and explaining the kingdom.

Ofcourse I know you need the Holy Spirit to understand scripture, but sound doctrine is not haywire, such that it lacks every bit of objectivity.

Paul used family to explain christ and the church, sowing and reaping to explain flesh and death etc.

There is objective analogy in scripture.

Waving away of every analogy in the pretext that it is human, so "not applicable" in explaining God is not a sound or intelligent way to discuss.

Please can you humbly tell me the part of my post you misunderstood that warrant all these nonparallel post with the questions I asked you?

You asked what kind of a God Jesus is?

Well the kind of a God that has a God.

Do you believe Jesus has a God? Do you believe the Father is the God of Jesus?

So this God that has a God, is it of the same nature with His God? If you clear yourself on the word BEGOTTEN then I'll know what to say next.

When Jesus entered TIME and SPACE that is when He BECAME part of creation the Father becomes His God.


Let me say this again, The Deity of Jesus wasn't about His life on earth (WHEN HE BECAME PART OF CREATION) but His existence before His birth because He was also 100% human in His 33 years of life on earth and God is the God over every creations

CANTICLES:
1) Can u prove the above as true ?, then show us where captivator used the word " Firstcreated" ?? If u cant, it will be declared as an outright lie .

This is what I wrote "...way you misapply the word FIRSTBORN by ALWAYS CHANGING it to FIRSTCREATED"
NOTICE the underlined word...
I was talking about THE MEANING he's giving to the word FIRSTBORN which also placed Jesus as FIRSTCREATED, or is Jesus not the FIRSTCREATED according to JW?

Don't be too forwarded next time without getting how someone CAREFULLY constructs statement.

2) am awaiting ur response to ayoku777's question: Do u agree that Jesus have a God ? If u say " YES" , then all argument will end since you now belive Jesus himself has a Supreme God )

So it's only ayoku777's question you can see but you couldn't see my questions he didn't attempt at all

But If you said " NO" , answer this: why is reference made to " The GOD OF Jesus Christ" Ephesian 1:17 if he doesnt have a God?

If you read my previous post you will see where I answer his question.

RikoduoSennin:
I am saying Jesus is a Mighty God who has his own personal God- Almighty God whom he answers to.(Revelation 1:6)

And Jesus is also Almighty God (Revelation 1:

Try replacing the word beginning from Genesis 1:1 and see its mean changed. Eg "In the origin/source God created the heavens and the earth".

Yes it will change but does it change when use with Revelation 3:14? it doesn't! because both Genesis and Revelation are unparalleled statement.

Translators saw the words origin/ source and still choose beginning. There is a reason for that.

Really!!! You'll see how you violated your own statement below.

The Father is the beginning of WHAT?

Are you asking me? I asked you question and you're asking me a gain

Jesus is "the beginning of God's creation" is not just a phrase, Revelation 3:14 mentions Jesus' titles. Can we apply this title to the Father?

The question you still fail to answer is what does the beginning mean?

So Firstborn does not have it regular meaning because it was used on Jesus eh?

Who says so?
Now you said in the above that the translator must have a reason of using the word THE BEGINNING instead of ORIGIN or SOURCE, THEN DID YOU KNOW THAT PAUL MUST HAVE A REASON OF USING THE WORD FIRSTBORN INTSEAD OF FIRSTCREATED?

Pre-eminence (Abj): better than all others, outstanding. Is Jesus better than the Father? 1 corithians 15:27 exempted the Father from all that.

Then who talks about the Father here?

The bible never specify which whether it was human life or heavenly life that was GRANTED to JESUS, so it goes to show that it was both- since it compares Jehovah's and Jesus life ( one is self existent while the other was GRANTED)

Does the word granted mean another thing?

To say the Bible never specifies it is a pure false that means you just took that verse out of its context by failing to observe the preceding & next verse. Jesus didn't stop at given life also went on to say authority.

Please quote me where I said the above. To set matter straight, Isaiah mentions Jehovah, and Jesus came in his Father's name.

Answered!

Is the representative equal in rank to the president or can he be the same as the president?

Then who claimed this?

Coming in the president name does not mean when he goes back to the president he still has that same authority, does it?

But the Bible says Jesus still have the same authority.

Now the bold section is your opinion, I don't think that is the point of God being called "invisible" or is there another meaning of that word?

John 1:18 "No one has EVER seen God..."

John 5:37 "...His voice you have not heard, his form you have NEVER Seen"

John 6:46 "Not that any man has seen the Father except him who is from Him"

Why is that because, no human has ascended to the Heaven

1 timothy 1:17 " To the king of ages, IMMORTAL, INVISIBLE, the ONLY GOD,...."

Compare Hebrew 11:27 "...who is invisible"

Can one see an invisible thing?

You're attacking a strawman here, Angels are INVISIBLE but do people ever see Angels before? The onus is on you and I know that you will quickly reject this when Colossians 1:16 says "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible...,"

Psalm 83:18 says otherwise "Let them Know that you ALONE whose name is Jehovah is the Most high over all the earth"- Jesus/Yehoshua is a derivative of Yahweh/Jehovah not the other way around.

Was Psalms taking about the Godhead or the Father?

If Jesus is Yahweh in the Flesh, does that not imply that they are THE SAME?

Yahweh is name for the Godhead in the OT. The Father and the Son are not the same thing.

It was a Resurrected [size=14pt]Jesus who has all the authority given back to him[/size] that said he is "Going to his God" @ John 20:17

@bolded-According to you The authority was given BACK TO HIM which means He possesses the AUTHORITY BEFORE.

After stephen saw Jesus in Heaven, Jesus later said the words recorded @ Revelation 3:2,12. [size=14pt]So human Jesus did not have the fullness of the Godhead dwelling in him,[/size]

Is it Stephen who saw Jesus when the word of Revelation 3:2,12 made or John? Because I don't know you arrived at Stephen and Revelation

is that it? He dropped his God title and reclaim it when? When did Jesus become a God back again?

Read Phil 2:6, He is still God but with additional nature (FLESH)

Ahmed is a General, Abacha is a General and Head of State. Are they equal in rank?

Then who says so?

Jesus is a Mighty God, Jehovah is both a Mighty and Almighty God.

And Jesus is also both Mighty and Almighty God.

I asked because of the implication that if Jesus have fellows who are not Jehovah nor Holy Spirit- it says a lot about what kind of God he is?

It should be an implication on your side not mine because the purpose you asked that question is to buttress Hebrew 1:9.

See the bold section, You replied my question by giving me an assignment. How can I answer a question I asked which is not a rhetorical question?

So that you can see how ridicule your question is because I'm wondering how Jesus how is the FIRSTBORN of all creation could have a fellow?

A mystery, since the bible is silence on this issue, I don't wish to say what I am not sure of.

So you believe in mystery and when some Trinitarians say TRINITY is a mystery you'll reject it.
I know you try to play smart here because if you say heaven was before Jesus then Jesus can't be FIRSTBORN of all creation and if Jesus comes before heaven it leads us to where did He stay? Surely He must have lived with the Father in eternity before heaven was created and ONLY GOD CAN LIVE IN ETERNITY which made Jesus far far different from other God you're trying to equate with Him.

As per Jesus Fellows- it is not important to the topic, so we can drop it.

No I can't because how FIRSTBORN of all creation have a fellows?

My apologise, I thought the purpose of you quoting Isaiah 40:3 was to link Jehovah who was mentioned there has the one who came in the FLESH as Jesus christ. Am I wrong?

Yes I mean Yahweh who spoke in Isaiah 40:3 was the one we see in the FLESH you can only get confused when you think Yahweh is ONLY the Father.

Please don't define the word HEIR a different way.

Did I?

You said Jesus created everything,

Are you denying it?

how can he be a HEIR to inherit everything again if everything belongs to him.

How can God adopt us as a children when His the one who created us?

Yes, it is a question. Why would humans be called Heirs to God and fellow/co-heirs with Christ? If Jesus were Almighty God, humans would have been only his heirs.

The question I asked you boycott it, who made you fellow/co-heir with Christ?

@the bold section, Jesus never said he is God, so Why would you say
he is Almighty God? Jesus never claimed to be Almighty God. He was sent by a superior God.

I bet it you didn't understand my point, do you?

Finally we are in agreement, The God who sent Jesus is also Jesus' God.

Agree with you! mba, I know you misunderstood that statement too.

I believe you mean A MIGHTY God.

if Jesus is a Mighty God, is He still in the same category of other people called God (according to you) because you've already claimed He was not the only one called God in the Bible.

ayoku777:
No one said Jesus was created, Jesus was pro-created (begotten) of the Father. And He created ALL things.

How does the Father procreate Jesus Christ? is it through creation or what?
Your answer here will show how you really understand what you're saying.

Nawa o. Did I ever say Jesus is not God?

I said Jesus is God, and the Father is also is God.

The Father is eternal and uncreated(No beginning), do you believe Jesus as God also possesses this attributes? If No! what do you think Apostle John was emphasising when he said Jesus is God?

Please explain to me how you can be equal with the person you call YOUR GOD. Or that is a mystery too?

I believe you're not talking about equality in position here? Because is like you agree with equality in NATURE in one of your previous post.

How can YOUR GOD be your equal? How can God have a God and yet they are the same and are equal.

Leme guess, its a mystery.

As above

Jesus is God, but He has a God because He is not the Mosthigh God. The person you call your God is not your equal. And no amount of "it is a mystery" can make it so.

I'll still like to know WHAT TYPE OF GOD you believe Jesus is, is it the same with how JW view Him?

This is the kind of subjective interpretation of scriptures that makes unbelievers laugh at us. When we can't be objective with interpretation

The underlined almost cracks my ribs, do you know that your own explanation is even awkward more than the people you're referring to?

CAPTIVATOR:
I just smiled ..... Honestly speaking, You dont need all this emotional outburst

Your problem still remains the same and it is only God who can deliver you from it.

Jesus was born into existence as the direct Creation of the FATHER , Making Him the ' FIRST-BORN OF All CREATION" by the Invisible God, The FATHER Col 1:15, Proverb 8:22,30 >Matthew 11:19)!
This is why Jesus is reffered to as the " Son of God" , the same way Created angels are also called " son of God" Job 38:4-7 And the first human creature is also refered to as the " Son Of God" Luk 3:38

NOTE: THE title " Son Of God" is never applied to the Father, The FATHER Was Never Created! ( Psalm 90:2)

This is the question I asked you

Emusan: Again, what I demanded of you is Explain how Jesus was BORN INTO EXISTENCE without YOU CHANGING the word FIRSTBORN into FIRSTCREATED?

but when you wanted to quote me you only quoted the part that suits you

CAPTIVATOR:
Again, what I demanded of you is Explain how Jesus was BORN INTO EXISTENCE.

And also you couldn't deal with my other question than to boycott it totally

Emusan: If Jesus is FIRSTBORN of ALL CREATION, were the rest of the CREATION also BORN?

Because you know there's no way for you to deal with the questions, you have to keep repeating all what you've been programmed with.

Mind you I only want to correct your shallow knowledge and the way you misapply the word FIRSTBORN by ALWAYS CHANGING it to FIRSTCREATED.

DO YOU NOW BELIEVE THAT JESUS HAVE A SUPERIOR GOD??

The point is FIRSTBORN...and after I've warned you not to deviate from the main point you can still displaying it again.

Please and please always with your brain whenever you want to reply my post, Ok!

CAPTIVATOR:
Remember, Jesus Is NOT the Almighty God ( John 20:17)

Did my post say anything about Jesus being the Almighty God or not?
I simply asked, can God be created? which I didn't see any correlation between the question I asked and your reply.

Hypocrisy in action ............
FIRST [BORN/b] OF ALL CREATION ! NOTE: FIRST /BORN/ OF CREATION Col 1:15.

Again, what I demanded of you is [b]Explain how Jesus was BORN INTO EXISTENCE without YOU CHANGING the word FIRSTBORN into FIRSTCREATED?

YES! First BORN OF CREATION ( born of creation, a part of creation) Col 1:15

If Jesus is FIRSTBORN of ALL CREATION, were the rest of the CREATION also BORN?

First BORN from the dead ( part of the dead before his ressurection)

You agreed is not the FIRST to die, right?

He Was part of the dead NOT exclusive of the word "dead" ! But firstborn because he was the first to be raised to Immortality , UNLIKE others who died again, Jesus wont die anymore! But remember he was not exclusive from the dead , so dont play games removing him from" CREATION" Col 1:15

Who is playing game?

So those people who resurrected immediately Jesus gave up the ghost (Matt 27:52) were still mortal, right?
Abraham, Moses e.t.c were also mortal in heaven, right?

#smiles# Am not saying he is not supreme
, but the fact remains that he was before ressurection part of the "dead" ! Col 1:18

Does this statement have any meaning to you?

FIRST BORN OF ALL CREATION

You're still confusing yourself with the word FIRSTBORN.

RikoduoSennin:
Lying? Is that what this is about? ....hehehe....

Did you see the polite way I asked you to quote me where I said so because I knew it had to be a misunderstanding not a QUARREL. (NB: I run from quarrels- I believe we are not quarrels)

[size=14pt]Emusan, I must admit I was wrong when I said, " The Lord in that account was not Jehovah" in page 1 of this discussion.[/size] I was too hasty. You did not state the Scripture you quoted from and [size=14pt]I responded without researching where you quoted from.[/size]

I did not lie intentionally (My intention was not to deceive) like you claim. After you quoted that scripture of Isaiah 40:3, Note my comments on it: I affirmed that it was God's name Jehovah that was mentioned and using Malachi 3:1 and Jesus' comments that HE CAME IN HIS FATHERS NAME.

If I did lie about the first instance intentionally, my posts in page 2 and 3 would contradict that, meaning something is of- two statements can't be right.

To please your enhanced ego, I wish to state that my first statement " The Lord in that account is not Jehovah" is WRONG. (A problem resulting from removal of God's name from the KJV/NKJV and my personal conviction that every mention of the word LORD in the bible does not necessary mean Jehovah)

I didn't expect you to prolong this particular post until you type more than 200 characters.

What I needed from you is the bolded part, thank you.

[size=14pt]Before I reply your post I want you to openly apologize for this lie if not I won't reply your post.[/size]

RikoduoSennin:
Please quote me where I said the above; (and the above you're referring to is)

Emusan: "You're very funny, when you erroneously said THE Lord in Isaiah 40:3 is not YAHWEH but just ordinary Lord like Jesus or any human Lord."

To set matter straight, Isaiah mentions Jehovah, and Jesus came in his Father's name.

Your point that I replied to was

RikoduoSennin: "No where the Father sent Himself in the scripture

then I replied

Emusan: [size=14pt]When you failed to read your Bible,[/size] "The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, [size=14pt]prepare ye the way of the LORD(Yahweh), make straight in the desert a highway for our God(Yahweh)." NWT[/size] Who fulfilled this prophecy? John the Baptist & Jesus! Did God send Himself?

AND YOUR REPLY TO MY POST WAS

RikoduoSennin: [size=14pt]The "Lord" in that account is not Yahweh. Its not everywhere in the bible we have Lord/God to mean Yahweh.[/size] You can't superimpose that into the original text ( See what KJV did by removing God's true name from the bible because of superstition? Some can't identify where refer to God and where refer to Jesus eg My Lord said to My Lord). Jesus bears the title Lord does not make him Yahweh, Abraham was called Lord too.

NOTICE my first statement WHEN YOU FAILED TO READ YOUR BIBLE

Do you agree that you're lying?

CAPTIVATOR:
LISTEN
Its good you recognize the fact that the Father was never created !! What about Jesus his son ??

How can God be created?

Col 1:15 Jesus is " the FIRST - BORN of ALL CREATION" !!! This clearly reveal that OF ALL CREATION THAT CAME INTO EXISTENCE, [size=14pt]JESUS IS THE FIRST TO BE BORN INTO EXISTENCE.![/size]

Actually, I've addressed this point but for the purpose of the bolded part I'll ask you this question.

Explain how Jesus was BORN INTO EXISTENCE without YOU CHANGING the word FIRSTBORN into FIRSTCREATED?
Beside FIRSTBORN and FIRSTCREATED do they mean the same thin?

.. The trinity lie says " pre eminence over" ! This never appeared in that scripture!

I can see you lack basic English the verse says "...so that he might become the one who is first in all things;" NWT If Jesus is first IN all things is there anything above Him again and what is the mean of OVER? Remember I didn't include the Father in all things before you misquote me.

Another lie is " firstborn over all creation" NO! " FIRST-BORN OF CREATION".

Answer my first question above for this question.

Col 1:18 Jesus is the FIRSTBORN from the dead" !! [size=14pt]He was part of d dead, but first to be raised,[/size]

Many people died before Jesus and resurrect before Him, so why will Apostle Paul said Jesus is the FIRSTBORN among the dead if the word FIRSTBORN here doesn't mean pre-eminence/supremacy?

its a big LIE to say " firstborn over the dead" or "pre eminen

Are you telling me that Jesus is not SUPREME over the dead?
I guess you don't even know the meaning of pre-eminence, do you?


NOTE: Don't jump up and down by quoting many Bible references in other to make this point overstress, what we are discussing now is FIRSTBORN OF ALL CREATION stick to it.

ayoku777:
We need to understand scriptural language and expressions. This is not a problem or question of english per se.

"All things" doesn't include the Father.

When the bible says;

1Cor 15v27 -For He hath put ALL THINGS UNDER HIS FEET.

Does that "ALL THINGS" include the Father? Has the Father been put under the feet of Christ? Ofcourse NOT! "ALL THINGS" exclude the Father.

It points that out in the second part of the verse;

1Cor 15v27 -...But when He saith, all things are put under Him, it is manifest that He is EXCEPTED, which did put all things under Him

So when the Bible says;

John 1v3 -ALL THINGS were made by Him(Jesus);

It is obvious that, the "all things" excludes the Father that brought Him forth. That Jesus made "all things" doesn't mean He is the Father or that otherwise He made the Father too. That He made all things doesn't mean He wasn't begotten as well.

NO! "All things" does not include the Father. The Father brought forth (or procreated) the Son and the Son made ALL THINGS.

I think RikoduoSennin has the other points covered.

Sir, I think you're too fast forward instead of taking time to digest my post.

I didn't say the Father was included in ALL THINGS...what I mean by ALL THINGS is that EVERYTHING THAT CAME INTO EXISTENCE AT CREATION it is evident that The Father was never created, so the reason why I quoted John 1:3 is to show people that Jesus was never part of creation instead the Bible placed Him outside the creation.

RikoduoSennin:
Well, Jesus is a created being not according to me but the Scriptures.

IF Jesus is both God and Creator of all things why would he Say "The words of the 'Amen', the Faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's creation" - Revelation 3:14 NKJV.

Why would Paul right "He is the IMAGE of 'the INVICIBLE GOD, THE FIRST-BORN OF ALL CREATION" -Colossians 1:15 NKJV

Are you saying Jesus is not God and the creator?
The bone of the contention is that Jesus is not part of creation which is what John 1:3 trying to explain.

As for Revelation 3:14, the word rendered "THE BEGINNING" was translated from the Greek word "ARCHE" that also means source/origin/principality/rule e.t.c so taking it out of context is baseless. Please the Father called Himself THE BEGINNING(arche)...does it mean the father has a beginning too? If we substitute THE BEGINNING with either ORIGIN or SOURCE then you will understand the content of that verse.

As for colo 1:15 Paul didn't mean Jesus was the FIRSTCREATED but what he means by FIRSTBORN is pre-eminence/supremacy which he stresses out in verse 18 "...that in all things he might have the preeminence."
The key question one can ask here is, if Jesus was created FIRST why must He have THE PREEMINENCE once He is already in the position of pre-eminence?

The simple answer is, Jesus is never part of creation but as He entered time and space (creation) He must take the position because He brought creation into being.

This two scripture explains what is included in EVERYTHING being created through Jesus. It means Jesus created everything apart from himself, so he was not self existent like the Father (invisible God) who granted him life by creation- John
5:26- Read it and you will see, the Son would not, can not exist without the Father.

NO! What that verse is making clear is that Jesus never be part of creation, He's the one who started creation.
You miss apply that John 5:26, if you read it carefully you will know that the life the Father granted The Son was His Humanity LIFE "For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. because JESUS HIMSELF IS EVERLASTING LIFE, how can EVERLASTING LIFE BE CREATED?

So you mean Jesus did NOT 'DIE' FOR YOUR SIN AGAIN? That is really interesting to know.

Where did I say so?

At first glance, one would thing- you got me, but you could not be more wrong. Here is me using the NKJV to explain that Scripture with other Scriptures.

You're very funny, when you erroneously said THE Lord in Isaiah 40:3 is not YAHWEH but just ordinary Lord like Jesus or any human Lord
Come with another lie.

Please see this Parallel scripture - Malachi 3:1 "Behold, I send my messenger to prepare the way before ME, and the Lord whom you seek will suddenly come to HIS TEMPLE, the messenger of the covenant in whom YOU delight, behold, HE IS COMING SAYS THE LORD OF HOSTS

What did you get from tthe bolded section? Is the Lord of Hosts referring to himself in the third person or mentioning coming of another person who is "THE MESSENGER of the covenant".

If you know the IMPLICATION of this passage on your claim you wouldn't have quoted it.
Malachi 3:1 "Behold, I send my messenger to prepare the way before ME...,
Please the I and ME in that passage is it the Father that is talking or The MESSENGER who is coming?

What I understand from that verse is that a messenger will PREPARE A WAY FOR THE SPEAKER beside please which Lord are people seeking for, THAT IS COMING TO HIS TEMPLE, is it not YAHWEH or another Lord?

Jesus himself answers, " I have come in MY FATHERS NAME (obviously Jehovah I presume), and you did not receive me; IF ANOTHER COMES IN HIS OWN NAME HIM YOU WILL RECEIVE"

If Jesus came in THE NAME OF THE FATHER (YAHWEH) so if I call Him YAHWEH did I make a mistake?
Can you address a president representative his/her name and not your excellency Mr. President?

Jesus did not come in his behalf or his own Name. When Angels come in Jehovah's behalf, they are called God (capital G) in the bible, that is why people like Abraham, Moses spoke to God face to face, yet NONE has seen Almighty God (John 1:18)

Another lie, NONE has seen God in TOTALITY OF HIS GLORY not that people have not seen God, the purpose of John 1:18 is "...the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. John the Baptist didn't mean seen God any how BUT FULLY KNOW and DECLEAR HIM TO PEOPLE except JESUS who is also God.

I have, but you need to tell me our how can Jesus be the Same person as his own God LOGICALLY.

Jesus is not The Father, BUT YAHWEH in FLESH the name YAHWEH is hold all over the GODHEAD.

No, you haven't address the Issue: How come Jesus has a God he answers to? If you had, we won't be dragging this discussion to page 3.

The EVERLASTING LIFE, The WORD became FLESH which is called incarnation, so in His humanity He has a God because He has already surrendered everything to His Father "But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:" Phili 2:7 so the Father became His God that's why Jesus need to be exalted again.
Mind Jesus didn't come to Earth as God.

But I have been addressing you questions while you have been ignoring mine. Its just that, you have not been getting the answers you were expecting to hear that's all.

How many of your question have I avoided? I always analyse your post point by point

No, Jesus is just not an ordinary God, he is a MIGHTY GOD but he is not the Almighty God- that right alone is reserved for Jesus and our God (John 20:17)

Do you also realise that The Father is also MIGHTY GOD?

I have read the Entire bible 4 times in 4 years. This will be my 5th time(3 chapters everyday=entire bible in a year). So don't conclude so fast.

Then why are you asking who are the fellow of Jesus Christ?

Here is a quiz from Hebrew 1:1-3:

And you will be claiming that you always answer my question, you asked question "WHO ARE JESUS FELLOWS" and I gave you assignment you come back with more question when you haven't answered your own question.

you also avoid this question my question totally, you said and I quote "Jesus did NOT create the literal Heavens (abode of The Father)," and I asked "Then did this abode of the Father come before Jesus or Jesus comes before this abode?

Again who are Jesus' fellow according to you?

1) Why would Almighty God call himself "A Father" and the same time "A Son"?

Then who say The Father and The Son are the same thing?

2) Why would The Father make the son his HEIR if they are equal or the same.

I strike "the same" because no TRINITARIAN ever say so, The Son became heir of all things because all things were created for Him.

Read Hebrew 10:5-9 well. Especially verse 7
Romans 8:16, 17 "It is the spirit himself bearing witness with our spirit THAT WE ARE CHILDREN OF GOD and If children then HEIRS, HEIRS OF GOD and FELLOW HEIRS WITH CHRIST provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him" 2 peter 1:4 says PARTAKE OF THE DIVINE NATURE.

We are sons of God hence heirs of God, Why are then not heirs of Christ rather we are 'Fellow/co-heirs with christ? Because of being adopted as Sons to God not adopted as a God.

And you call this a question
Imaging you're co-heir with Christ or son of God or Child of God, who make you or allow you to be co-heir/son of God/child of God?
Do you even know the purpose of Christ on Earth?

Explain John 5:44 "How can you believe, who receive glory from one another and do not seek the glory that COMES FROM THE 'ONLY' GOD", and John 8:44 " If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing; it is MY FATHER WHO GLORIFIES ME, OF WHOM YOU SAY THAT HE IS YOUR GOD"

Jesus himself acknowledged that the Jews claim to worship not himself BUT HIS FATHER, THE ONLY TRUE GOD.

I can't stop laughing whenever people like you make such statement.
No Christian will ever deny that Jesus was on earth pointing people to know God.
Jesus never said He is God they say He blasphemy what if He now says I am God what would they do?

The problem people like you is having is that, you don't know that Jesus didn't come to earth to prove to people that He is God RATHER to let people know that the same God who has been spoken to them right from the day of their fathers has sent Him.

Don't get it twisted when I said GOD because not until advent of Jesus that people fully know that the Father has a UNIQUE Son which is also God.


FYI please don't prolong issue if you know you can't give a direct answer to one question but deviating and jumping from one point to another.

First of all swallow this verse before I proceed "Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools," Romans 1:22

Sirniyeh:
For ages past, I have been seeking the right understanding to get convinced about Bible God. And I'm curious to know where was God before Genesis Chapter 1!

If you've been SEEKING THE RIGHT UNDERSTANDING then you should have asked for wisdom to ask the RIGHT QUESTION.

According to the book of Genesis, it's written:
1. "In the beginning God created..." Where was God before the commencement of the creation?

Where was the Builder before the commencement of the Building?

*ETERNITY=NO TIME and SPACE=NO CREATION
*CREATION=BEGINNING OF TIME and SPACE=EXISTENCE OF NON-ETERNITY.
God brought Creation out of Eternity and the meaning of the name of God "I AM that I AM"...interpreted "I AM (before creation) that (when there's no creation) I AM"
God can bring creation into halt but ETERNITY continues.

2. "...Let us create man in our own image..." The word "OUR" brings confusion. Who were the people (the co-creators) with God at the theatre room? Or were they female and male gods who mate to produce their likeness? Also who were the witnesses that brought the scene to book?

Dumbest question,
Firstly, the OUR connotes the GODHEAD and the co-creators are The Word and The Holy spirit.
How can there be witness when the supposed witness(es) were brought into existence

3. "...Let them procreate and replenish..." This raises important question. How did first couple get the idea of having sexxx before they couple procreate? Who revealed the understanding of the hole beneath a woman for procreation?

And you called this question :-/ :-/

4. "...that Abel's sacrifice was accepted and Cain was not..." What was the proof of offering acceptance then? And what is the proof of offering acceptance today?

The reason isn't that you're seeking for the truth but you've already made up your mind not to know the truth, if not you won't ask another dumbest question here.

The simple proof for acceptance of offering both then and now is God loves a CHEERFUL GIVER. Was Cain given his offering with a pure and cheerful heart? Absolutely NO!

Dear brothers in faith,
Until I'm made clear with dissemination of right knowledge about this issue, I remain unbeliever.

You said and I quote "Dear brothers in faith" and go on to say "I remain unbeliever."
How can unbeliever still believe he is a brother in faith?

Are you in possession of right knowledge?

Are you sure you possess this right knowledge?

Share it and save a soul...

And indeed your soul will be saved in Jesus name.

CAPTIVATOR:
@Rikoduosennin ....... You have spoken well , but you didnt realise what Emusan is up to, he is tryin to tell you that Jehovah of old testament is the Jesus of new testament THEREBY Destroyin is own trinity that said Father and Son are distinct persons AND UNKNOWN TO HIM HE has adopted Modalism, an error Which states that Jehovah of old testament is d same Jesus of new testament!

Are you OK?
If my post is too comprehensive for you to decipher, why can't you ask a simple question? So that someone who knows the road can lead you?

Emusan went ahead to display his hypocrisy and inconsistency when he said : " He agreed that Jesus has a superior God " but went ahead towards Sayin Jesus is that same superior God!!!

Is it ahead/towards? You can't use both.
I'm very sure you don't even understand yourself

THE REAL TRUTH
Why is Isaiah 40:3 that refers to clearing the way for The Father, Jehovah APPLIED to his son Jesus in John 1:23 ? ...... Simply Because Jesus is a " REPRESENTATIVE from the Father, and the Father sent Jesus" John 7:29

It's even good as you quickly twisted that verse by agreeing that Jehovah only applied it to his Son, remember what your man said was that he never seen where Jehovah sent Himself and that the Lord in Isaiah 40:3 is not Jehovah but ordinary Lord YET you can dance to the tune of someone who lacks scriptural knowledge.

RikoduoSennin:
Jesus did not create himself- The scripture saids HE WAS GRANTED LIFE, he simply was used to create everything else.

You said EVERYTHING but the key point you neglected in that verse is NOT EVEN ONE THING CAME INTO BEING WITHOUT JESUS is English your problem? If God created Jesus it means IS NOT EVERYTHING CAME INTO BEING THROUGH JESUS.

What John 1:3 is saying is this, ALL CREATIONS came into existence through Jesus Christ OR put it in another way NO SINGLE CREATION WITHOUT JESUS. Now is Jesus Christ a created being/brought into EXISTENCE? YES (according to you), then this made Jesus part of creation BUT John 1:3 never grouped Jesus among creation WHICH MEANS the God John 1:1 is talking about is much more than what you want us to believe.

Jesus did NOT create the literal Heavens (abode of The Father),

Then did this abode of the Father come before Jesus or Jesus comes before this abode?

he help create things in it eg Angels. I made a typographical error which I modified in my previous post. Jesus is not Eternal- Eternal beings don't die- EVER.

Because you lack scriptural knowledge or just for your perverted doctrine you can spew this trash.
Jesus Himself is EVERLASTING LIFE, so how can EVERLASTING LIFE die?

Why do you conclude I only use NWT.

I did conclude but asking a sincere question.

I have said it before, I use different translations. Even in this forum I make quotes from KJV and NKJV mostly. Scritpures don't contradict itself.

Then what do you understand from that verse 1 Peter 1:11 "Searching what, or what manner of time [size=14pt]the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify,[/size] when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

The "Lord" in that account is not Yahweh. Its not everwhere in the bible we have Lord/God to mean Yahweh. You can't superimpose that into the original text ( See what KJV did by removing God's true name from the bible because of superstition? Some can't identify where refer to God and where refer to Jesus eg My Lord said to My Lord). Jesus bears the title Lord does not make him Yahweh, Abraham was called Lord too.

Thank God you're a Jehovah Witness I don't need to argue with you here "A voice of one calling out in the wilderness: “Clear up* [size=14pt]the way of Jehovah![/size] Make a straight highway through the desert for our God Isa 40:3 NWT

So who is lying here?

Nowhere in the scriptures was it said that Jehovah sent Yahweh sent himself, but he sent a son

Read Isaiah 40:3 again and again.

Twisting the argument. I have said it before, Jesus is a God (No argument there), but he himself has a God (that is the ball bone of contention because an Almighty should not have a personal God he answers to).

I have also addressed this.

The Father called the son God because Jesus is a God just like The Father called humans Gods too (Jesus said so). The Father is not the ONLY GOD, he is however the ONLY TRUE GOD- THE ALMIGHTY

Next time if you can't address my question stop quoting me.

I asked why will the writer of Hebrew apply the OT verses that meant for Jehovah to Jesus the Son without committing blasphemy? do you still believe Jesus is in the same category of God that those human belong to?

A lot of beings are also called God whether we like it all not. What is important his, after calling Jesus God, he differential himself from Jesus by calling himself Jesus 'personal God'- who will aniont Jesus more than jesus' Fellows ( Who are Jesus Fellows).

Had it been you read the whole book of Hebrew you would've known Jesus' Fellows for quick understanding quickly read Heb 2:7-17

truthislight:
John5:22
Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted ALL judgment to the Son,

John5:20
For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, and he will show him even greater works than these, so that you will be amazed.

Peace.

Are you sure you really understand the OP?
The OP asked, who will return to judge? and went ahead to list many OT scriptures that say it is Yahweh and the NT that say it's Jesus, after all the Op didn't say he didn't know that this verse you quoted is not in the Bible but

*why will Yahweh say he will be the one to judge but the judgement is now shifted to Jesus?
*Did Yahweh change his mind?
*Did Yahweh didn't know initially that He won't be the one to judge before He declared them?
*why Yahweh didn't make a direct statement that He will send someone rather than attributing it to Himself?
*OR Yahweh has truly come as He promised?

I think this what the OP need clarification of.

RikoduoSennin:
Read previous post in this thread and see it being used.

I've cleared myself here.

Did you also see, " And the Word was with God". What is unique about "The word" being called God, he is not the only being called that with the same capital 'G', do you know that? Lesser being were also called God too. It means nothing since none of these being (Jesus included) is not the TRUE ALMIGHTY.

I know this is what you will resort to but any open minded person reading John 1 would see that the writer has something more than that in mind before he called the WORD God, as he continue in verse 3 without Him (Jesus) NOTHING WAS MADE, that has been made you believe Jesus was created which means Jesus WAS MADE, now this verse said NOTHING WAS MADE without Jesus, can we then say it's Jesus who created Himself?

Jesus came before THE THINGS IN HEAVEN, hence other TRANSLATIONS use "Through him". Please ask yourself why is that? (NB: He did create Heaven itself but things in Heaven as that scripture said)

I know either through/by
Good, you agree that Jesus did create heaven itself which means God created Jesus before Jesus now created heaven, now tell me where was Jesus dwelling after He was created (according to you) since every living creations need a place to dwell? remember only God dwells in ETERNITY.

I don't get you, are you Saying Jesus is the same as the Holy Spirit? If Jesus and the Father were really one, they would have ONE AND THE SAME WILL, but that is not the case, is it?

See you, am I the one saying it or what is in the scripture? Do you know why NWT has to remove the word "of Christ"?
Please what do you understand from that scripture?

I have never read where it is written that God sent HIMSELF!

When you failed to read your Bible, "The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD(Yahweh), make straight in the desert a highway for our God(Yahweh)." Who fulfilled this prophecy? John the Baptist & Jesus! Did God send Himself?

Are you denying Jesus having a God he answers to?

No I didn't! Are you denying Jesus as God? when Genesis told us that it is Yahweh who breath His Spirit of life into Adam and the NT said it is Jesus who created everything including Adam?

It was because of people like you that was why The Father in verse 9 made it Clear that he his A God who is Jesus's personal God. Read: " Therefore God (Almighty), EVEN THY/YOUR GOD". Did you notice the possessive term "YOUR GOD". Did you bother to ask yourself what does it mean.

I do! but everyone can see that you didn't address my question why will the Father called the Son God when He is the only God? and another question we can ask is, [b]why would the writer apply the verses that meant for Yahweh in the OT to the Son without blasphemy?

malvisguy212:
ok, very good, muhammed is not a prophet but a Warner;

Allah says: “Say (O Muhammad): I have no
power over any good or harm to myself
except as Allah wills. If I had knowledge of
the unseen, I should have multiplied all
good, and no evil should have touched
me: I am but a WARNER, and a bringer of
glad tidings to those who have
faith.” [ Sûrah al-A`râf: 188]

When I read his post this verse quickly comes to my mind, he claimed someone has shallow mind whereas his own mind shallows more than shallowness he couldn't respond because you caught him red handed.

RikoduoSennin:
How did they (Trinitarians) interprete Psalms 138:2 by applying "word" in that verse to mean "Jesus".

I don't think Trinitarians use this verse because not all version rendered it as WORD.

Who told you I am reading a corrupted scripture? I read and use different translations of the bible- each have its own strong side.

If this is true, did you ever come across this "...and the WORD was God" John 1:1

Where is your proof that Jesus disciples believe he his Jehovah in the flesh because I have my proof that the reverse is the case: eg.
PAUL
Ephesians 1:3, 17 "Blessed be THE GOD and Father of OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST...... That THE GOD of OUR LORD Jesus Christ....."

PAUL Colossian 1:16 "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven,..." 17 "And he is before all things, and by him all things consist."

I know your objection to this will be, Jesus is the first creation but if that is true verse 16 says For by Him were all things created, that are in heaven,..." Which come first Jesus or heaven?

PETER
1 Peter 1:3 "Blessed be The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ..."

PETER
1 Peter 1:11 "Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ,..."

The blessed Apostle said it was THE SPIRIT of Jesus Christ that prophecies Christ suffering and through out the Old Testament about the suffering and the death of the Messiah it was Holy spirit or God that did it,

They are also Moreeeeeeeee. But then,
Jesus said he has a God himself, How can Jesus be the flesh manifestation of his own God.
You don't believe Jesus words in John 20:17, Revelation 3:2,12,14.

They are just so many, but then.
So you don't believe The Father when He called the Son God...in Hebrew 1:8, how can The Father who is God called the Son God?

What I see most Non-Trinitarian misunderstand about Trinity is inability to separate Jesus' humanity from His Divinity.

RikoduoSennin:
The context points to spoken word just as you said.

He rightly said but both of you have different understanding about The Word

Others should please explain, When John the baptist, Peter , James and John heard a vioce from Heaven say "This is my beloved son"- Did the actual words spoken mean 'THE WORD'-Jesus. NB: 'The word' is a title.

You problem is pathetic, did the Trinitarian say since Jesus is the word of God, then the Father can't speak again or since the Holy Spirit is the spirit of the Father, the Father lying dead without spirit in Him anytime the Holyspirit is at work?

Its pitiful that many never read the bible to see that the disciples believe Jesus is not Jehovah and he is a subject of Jehovah.

It's pitiful that you can't see that the disciple actually believe Jesus is Jehovah in Flesh because you're reading a corrupted scripture.

MisterNRC:
Answer: You can apply for work using the sites already mentioned in this thread.

Ok but can you help me with one or two of the site or the actual page where they are on this thread?
because the thread is dem too long over 200 pages

worry359:
I hate to say but you sound very desparate and ready to throw yourself on the first stranger who gives you an offer.
This WILL lead to tears!

Thanks, though I'm not desperate because my post read 'HELP'

Of course we're all stranger in this life I don't live a life of discouragement because my ex-gf jilted me then I should conclude all ladies are wicked.
Are you a stranger who can dupe your fellow? To me I'm a stranger of help in my own capability to those who will (in one way or the other) meet me for the first time for any assistance.

For example you need to book a hotel or similar before you visit. This may be part of your travel package.
You can tot think of turning up with N10 in your pocket to live and find a job.
Most advice is to visit with about $1,000 to cover living, food and transport.
(That is US Dollars not Nair!)

Alright I understood you but the help I'm talking about before is, maybe you know someone over there who you can link me with for short period of my visit that's all.

Thanks once again, still looking for further advise.

worry359:
There is no simple "back door" to jobs.
The best advice is to get a visitors visa and go on holiday to look around.
There are very many agents who will take your money and give you nothing, or slave job.
Read back through this section.

Thanks.

But about the visitor's visa I don't have anybody over there, but can you help me arrange a place to stay after gotten the visit visa? Please I will hold my cash for that because their hotel will be too expensive.

monchouchou: Start by reading this thread from beginning or atleast from the middle.

I don't know any reliable agent. Most are fraudulent. Go online and contact a reliable tour agency in dubai to assist u in getting a visit visa and come down and search for a job yourself.

For job sites u can use bayt.com monstergulf.com and dubbizle.com but be careful with dubbizle as there are a lot of fraudulent people there as well.

Good luck

Thanks,
But about the visitor's visa I don't have anybody over there, can you help me arrange a place to stay after gotten the visit visa? Please I will hold my cash for that because their hotel will be too expensive.

monchouchou:
Lol, nawa o. They have really prepared a nice format to use in scamming you.

There are job consultants everywhere in the world but paying for a job is illegal. They will only take your money and enrich themselves or at most get you a job as a cleaner or security guard. Don't waste your money.

Please read this thread from beginning or from the middle. All these questions have been answered repeatedly. We have advised against paying ANYONE or any job site or any company for a job as it never ends well.

So can you quickly do us favour by giving us a clue on how to apply for a Job in Dubai?

I mean any trusted site you know or a reliable agent please...

Thanks.

bossladyMo, MisterNRC, bellong, How can I apply for work in Australia while still here in Nigeria?

This is a fashion cake but can you eat it?

MisterNRC:
@ The Bolded : Correct.. Your head is there..
@Bossladymo, With the phone option. go with prepaid option. you cannot go wrong with that. there is also prepaid boost mobile (blackberry options).

I think the real bonus here about the starting from somewhere is that the person(s) you end up working for will stand as your local reference. it paid out eventually . I learnt to follow-up with calls to the names on the adverts sometimes before and also after dropping CVs.

was not a big fan of www.seek.com.au but back then when it was reigning this side, i used this site www.snipey.com.au and it was heavenly. Connected me straight to the recruiters bypassing the agencies but shame they are under maintenance now.

PS: mehn those tradies ehn..giving their occupation the "chargeable" respect it deserves.

Please how can I apply for work in Australia directly from Nigeria here?
Thanks.

Rilwon:
Lol, know islam without ever owning or reading the Quran themselves at all?
PDP will never tell you anything good about APC, will they? they will do anything to tarnish their image, take their speeches out of context to implicate them....thats the case here bro.

I don't even think you sometimes pounder over your statement before you post it, if what you said above is true do you also think APC will ever say something good about PDP (according to your own illustration)?

After this your statement BUT you can still believe that those Islamic scholars you're copying their explanation of the Holy Bible (which you and many Muslims take as a solid truth for the real Biblical explanations) are also interpreting Biblical text accordingly without taking them out of context.

It's obvious that you lack something but you will never agree that you lack it...(Wisdom is missing)

Why do you have to open another account?

Rilwanyne01......

Rilwon:
https://www.nairaland.com/1947119/let-us-more-tolerant-each

If the confession of faith Seun put in the Islamic section was here will you have mouth to talk?

This is the stupid thing that Seun always do when people raise voice about this he will post this link and closed the thread.

Why can't he do the same thing by creating a thread like this in Islamic section, if he's not religious bigotry?

joseph1832:
Brotherly! [size=14pt]I beseech thee, in the absence of non, you vote for the available.[/size] Even though I know fully that Buhari doesn't deserve my vote, giving it to him is better than giving it to GEJ!.

Remember this: "it is better to be seen as a vampire than to be seen as a weakling". GEJ is a weakling! A vote for him is a vote for continuous bombing and killing of innocent Nigerians. We need change in Nigeria, and if that change is anybody but GEJ, so be it!.

The bolded part is the reason I always say Nigerians are too gullible.

We have 11 presidential candidates for this 2015 election but what is going on now it seems GEJ & GMB are the only candidate, the ironic part of it is that many Nigerians can sincerely mention another aspirant's name apart from GEJ & GMB.

Among the 9 candidates that remain, is it that we can't find another person who can perform and bring the change we needed more than GEJ/GMB? The reason is we Nigerians are prone to lies and deceive.

Go to frontpage and read many comments on thread about PDP/APC/GMB/GEJ you will be surprised to see a comment with a lot of grammatical errors yet people will be endorsing those comments with likes just because the person supports GMB/GEJ, this is very pathetic.

I know many people follow GMB/GEJ today because of what the crowd are saying.

May God help us in this national especially we Youth.