₦airaland Forum

Discussing TRINITY with Jehovah Witness, Trinitarian can point to Philippians 2:6 to show that Jesus existed in the form/nature of God but JWs will quickly point to the last part of that verse to claim that Jesus didn't claim EQUALITY with God or sometimes JWs will say Jesus ONLY existed as a spirit person since God is a spirit. Is it true?

If Philippians 2:6 says "Who, being in the form of God...," and the next statement says "thought it not robbery to be equal with God" (KJV) something must has been lost in the mind of individual trying to reconcile second statement with the first statement. Some Trinitarians stuck at this point while JWs think that's the best time to continue with it.

I will ask only one question which I'll like anyone who wants to contribute should limit his/her answer to without going outside of this question.

Is Philippians 2:6 says Jesus is EQUAL or NOT EQUAL to God?

NOTE: Please no reference to another scriptures ONLY the UNDERSTANDING of Philippians 2:6 we need here.

macof:
Can't u jst shut up and stop exposing your idiocy?

Energy originated from God?

I know energy is your God nah

RikoduoSennin:
In what way is Jesus the POWER of GOd- please use scriptures.

He is the word of God Heb 4:12

In your haste you failed to notice that my emphasis was on YOUR USING A TRANSLATION that was not COMMON because I am well aware that you quote from different bible translation (that was why I recommended KJV/NKJV)

In my haste... you recommend but do you agree with KJV/NKJV?

When you read Exodus- we see that "God" spoke to Moses- Later we read that God spoke through Angels to Moses (Middleman is included). Same way some scripture reveal the Middleman used in Creation to be Jesus.

See how dubious you are, you used "GOD" not Jehovah here, is it God or Jehovah?

You and your hidden man misunderstood that acts 7:53 the verse didn't say God SPOKE through the Angels (Plural) BUT God put it into effect see how NIV put it "you who have received the law that was put into effect through angels but have not obeyed it." (NIV) Acts 7:53

Now you have agreed that it is Jehovah the Hebrew scripture says He actually did it not a representative.

Jesus is no ordinary creature, he was WITH God in the beginning and used according (Both were working).

And the same Jesus has a Fellow according to you.

I simply ask: How is Jesus "The Word of God" literal or figuratively? And I got the above....(Sigh)

It's not figurative and The word of God can not be created

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It seems you are keen on making a point with JW as a whole RATHER DISCUSS WITH ME ONE ON ONE. You are making a lot of assertions I have not said nor wrote about and making an argument against this.

I know what they (JWs) believed is what you're proving here so it's better I confronted you with it on their behalf.
I didn't make any assertion unless you want to tell me that YOU'RE NOT A JWs and whatever I've said here is not their believe.

RikoduoSennin:
Jesus Coming is different from the Almighty God coming as regards PURPOSE. What is their purpose of Coming is the difference.

Lol you've resulted to another thing JESUS' coming is DIFFERENT from the Almighty God...this your drama eh
So what is the Almighty God coming to do after Jesus has come? Support your point with scripture

Here yourself- "God put all the fullness of Divinity on Jesus". Someone put! That someone is God Almighty.

You just find away of dancing around and boycotting the main point. My question is why will Almighty God PUT ALL the FULLNESS of DIVINTY on Jesus when YOU CLAIMED THAT everything is DIVINE?

Did you see Verse 4: "John to the seven churches that are in Asia": and Verse 9 "I John, your brother...." Verse 8 is seperated from both verses- the one preceding it and succeeding it. It was an expression made by someone other than John - Jesus does not have qualities only an Almighty being could have.

Baseless point, you lack coherency while debating. Now see where you short yourself in the legs. You said and I quote [b]"Did you see Verse 4: "John to the seven churches that are in Asia": and Verse 9 "I John, your brother...." Verse 8 is seperated from both verses- [size=14pt]the one preceding it and succeeding it.[/size]

As "to the seven churches in Asia in verse 4" and the person who made this statement identified Himself 11 `I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last;' and, `What thou dost see, write in a scroll, and send to the seven assemblies that are in Asia; to Ephesus, and to Smyrna, and to Pergamos, and to Thyatira, and to Sardis, and to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.' [size=14pt]12 And I did turn to see the voice that did speak with me...'"[/size]

Why would verse 8 be separated from the verse 7 which is still talking about the same even?

---He has a personal superior God who is head over him.

And He Himself is a SUPERIOR GOD...confused fellow

---He does not know everything nor is he the Highest authority.

He knows all thing and nobody says He is the Highest Authority

---He has a CAUSE, he is not self existing.

You always boycott this question and I will ask it here again but if you didn't answer it then forget my reply
[b]How can ETERNAL/EVARLASTING LIFE be created?...Jesus is LIFE HIMSELF

I did not claim such. I said the Almighty God used his Servant/Master Worker Jesus to create every other things. [size=14pt]He create without Jesus[/size] but HE CHOSE TO USE Jesus, its not the same as needing Jesus help.

@bolded-see how you're calling God a liar the Bible says "...Nothing was created without Jesus..." but to propagate your false teaching you make this blatant lie...SMH

You did as you repeated it here HOW CAN Almighty God CHOSE to use a CREATED BEING when He can do it on His own?

So when Jesus got to Heaven and received his Glory back he still CLAIM TO HAVE A PERSONAL GOD- Revelation 3:2,12. That says a lot don't you think?

For the last time Jesus still possess His HUMANITY now in heaven...so He can still call the Father His God But when the time come when The Son shall hand over the kingdom to His Father "and when the all things may be subjected to him, then the Son also himself shall be subject to Him, who did subject to him the all things, that God may be the all in all." 1 Corin 15:28 YLT

I know JWs used this verse to disprove Jesus being God without even fully understand it @underlined says it all.

And who told you that I don't know who is fellows are? Speculations and assumptions.

You don't if not you won't ask that question

Ok, Hebrew 2:5,8 "For it was not to angels that GOD subjected the world to come...putting everything under his (Jesus) feet". Q: Who put everything under Jesus feet? A: God Q: How is Jesus the same person as the one who subject everything under is feet? A: He is not.

For the last time Jesus is not the Father

Hebrew 2:11 "For he who sanctifies and THOSE WHO ARE SANCTIFIED HAVE ALL ONE ORIGIN that is why he is not ashamed to call them BRETHREN" - (they have the same Father).

Then is God our Father the way He was Jesus' Father?

Hebrew 2:13 "Here I am, and the Children GOD has given me
Hebrew 2: 17 [size=14pt]"Therefore he had to be made like his brethren in every respect[/size] so that he MIGHT BECOME a merciful and FAITHFUL high Priest IN THE SERVICE OF GOD"

The major part you ignored is the bolded part.
@bolded & underlined-you can see that the Author of the Hebrew was talking about Jesus taking up man NATURE which made Him to be our fellows/companions

Beget means CAUSE which in turn means MAKE HAPPEN. Jesus has a cause.

Do you mean God created His own power?

You can't compare Adam to Jesus because Jesus is the "ONLY" begotten SON OF GOD- Emphasis on "only" not begotten nor son of God. Why, because God/YHWH made Jesus and Jesus in turn made Adam.(NB: Adam was called Son of God because he was Made by God- he has no earthly Father, Same thing apply to the Angels- Why was Jesus called "SON"wink

See your life if God made Jesus and Jesus was called the Son of God and Jesus made Adam then Adam should be called the Son of Jesus not God again

See this contradiction @underlined in your own statement "because God/YHWH made Jesus and Jesus in turn made Adam. (NB: Adam was called Son of God because he(Adam) was Made by God..." Is it Jesus who made Adam or God?

Finally, You used beget to mean CAUSE but later said Jesus is the ONLY begotten, if BEGET means TO CAUSE/CREATE according to you and ALL BEING were CAUSE/CREATE then Jesus can't be the ONLY begotten. This dismiss your application of the word BEGET...do more research on how God beget Jesus.

I well know that there are DIFFERENT SONSHIP, what is not different is WHY THEY ARE CALLED SONS. Man, Angels and Jesus are called SONS because they are all created!!!

So you know and you can still say Jesus is the ONLY begotten/cause/create and if you claim that God created Jesus first and used Jesus to create other then both Angels and man are not the son of God but son of Jesus

Are (How) can Jesus be SON of God and still the "Same" God again.

Why simple English is hard for you? Jesus is not the same as the Father

-Adam is man
-Eve is also man before the fall
Is Eve the same with Adam? No! But they were both called MAN?

Adopted Sons-Christians will have a share in that Nature someday- will they be transform to God Almighty then?

2 Peter 1:3,4 "His DIVINE POWER has granted to us all things that pertains to life and godliness through the knowledge of him who called us to HIS OWN GLORY AND EXCELLENCE by which he has granted us his precious and great promises that through these you may escape from corruption that is in the world because of passion and become PARTAKERS OF THE DIVINE NATURE".

Kai...SMH, Man has a corrupted NATURE through sin, Jesus came by taking on this same corrupted NATURE but the same NATURE was conquered and setting example of glorious transformation of this corrupted NATURE to INCORRUPTIBLE NATURE we are not taking the NATURE Jesus possessed before He took on FLESH but the NATURE He possessed after He conquered our sinful NATURE.

Its a shame that you don't understand my illustration.

In simple terms, Here is the hierachy;

| YHWH/The Father - Almighty God

| Jesus/The Son- Mighty God

| Angels//// Satan

| Man

PS: Angels are called Gods and are superior to Man. Hebrew 2:6,7,9.

Going back to your previous statement, Nigeria has only one President. the President can't be the VP and the VP can't be the president.
So to you Jesus is a Superior God and The Father is also a SUPERIOR God, How many SUPERIOR GOD do you have?

Again from the above, The Father is Almighty God and Jesus is Mighty God but according to the scripture The Father is also Mighty God. How come? Can someone be the President and at the same time V.President?

olajide21:
I live in Abuja and I can tell you authoritatively that power supply is epileptic in my area. Between 9pm yesterday and 5:30am this morning PHCN seize power and restored it about 5times.... In the last 31hrs before the above mentioned time, we had only 1 - 2 hrs of power supply..::::: No transformation here!!!!
Where do I live? FHA lugbe!!!!!! And Maitama is not better!!!

I was expecting to see my area on his list after I read SEVERAL COMMUNITIES, because your area is even better but ours is worsen.

Nobody should quote me thinking I'm supporting APC I don't even have party just that I'm not part of gullible Nigerians.

plaetton:
First, Science is about ideas and questions. Something I expect you to know more than many people here.

It is easy to mock the idea of an uncaused imaginary being, [size=14pt]for the simple fact that such a being , outside the realm of wishful thinking, has not properties upon which it can be scientifically classified,[/size] let alone being helpful in our scientific understanding of the universe.

Since science is about ideas do you think our idea can transcend the properties we have been made off?

@bolded part-look at the underlined words "...has not properties..."
Like I explained to someone above, we are the product of creation (existence of MATTER and ENERGY) and God is not part of these properties.

How do you want God who doesn't share in our properties (matter and energy) to be scientifically classified since all what science has knowledge about is MATTER AND ENERGY?

timonski:
do you always have to copy and paste this shit?

Sorry I didn't know it will provoke you. My apology

Now let me address your post

CAPTIVATOR:
u are here again with ur twisted arguments , answerin questions with a question as usual.

How is this your problem?

LISTEN

The book of EXODUS told us that Jehovah gave the law directly to Moses ( Exodus 20:1)

But you people say JEHOVAH never appeared in the Old Testament

But further EVIDENCE reveal that this was done through an Angel( Act 7:53).

The lie, you purposely wrote Angel (singular) but what appear in the verse is Angels (Plural)

So how many Angels gave the law?

WHILE the creation account told us that Jehovah God creates the world ( Ecc 12:1)

..........Further EVIDENCE reveal that this was done " [b]Through his Son" Heb 1:1,2[/b]

So you agree that the Hebrew scripture says it is Jehovah who created everything REMEMBER YOUR BROTHER SAID THE JEWS KNOW THAT JEHOVAH CREATED EVERYTHING through His Son.

You can only quote Ecc 12:1 whereas we have many places which spoke more than that,

Isa 43:21 "the people which I(Jehovah) formed for myself(Jehovah), that they might set forth my praise." YET everything was created for Christ.
Isa 44:24 "... I am Jehovah, that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens ALONE, that spreadeth abroad the earth (who is with me?) ASV
"...`I am Jehovah, doing all things, Stretching out the heavens by Myself, Spreading out the earth--who is with Me? YLT
"...“I am Jehovah, who made everything.I stretched out the heavens by myself, +And I spread out the earth. +Who was with me? NWT

It's either God isn't telling us the truth here or JWs are the one telling lies surely both can't be true.

BOTH the angel in d first instance , and the Son in the second instance are CARRYIN OUT THE WILL OF God,The FATHER (Joh 6:38)

ANGELS not angel
You quote John 6:38 where Jesus was supposed to be speaking about HIMSELF ALONE and you can still apply it to the Angel in the OT

FACT BOX " God (JEHOVAH) made the universe Through his son (Jesus) " HEB 1:1,2 ! TWO DISTINCT PERSONS.

TWO DISTINCT PERSONS but ONE CREATOR

Back to my question, can the LIVING word of God be created?

CAPTIVATOR:
MODALISM says " Jehovah Of old testament is the same Jesus of new testament" ! OPEN UR EYES AND SEE HOW UV JOINED THE MODALISM LEAGUE

Imagine that question, AND to confirm ur modalism case, u replied POSITIVELY. SAYING


Http: www.nairaland.com/post/30061259
PROVED !



[size=14pt]But to make urself appear as a Trinitarian[/size] despite the fact that uv just proved modalism, u quickly added the phrase .

.
Http: www.nairaland.com/post/30061259

WHICH is also FALSE ......

" That people May Know that YOU, Whose NAME is Jehovah , YOU ALONE is the MOST HIGH over all the earth" psalm 83:18.

" You ALONE" psalm 83:18

" You ALONE" Psalm 83:18

Is Jesus the Most High ?

" HE SHALL be Called SON OF the most high " Luke 1:32 !
NOT MOST HIGH but SON OF

INFACT: ANYONE MOST HIGH never have a God he is sujected under , whereas Christ will forever be subjected under the authority of THE MOST HIGH JEHOVAH, the God AND the FATHER of Christ ( 1 COR 15: 24, 28, Eph 1:3)

The bolded part is my concern and people reading that part can see how confuse you are

The truth is you FULLY UNDERSTOOD my point but just decided to twist.

The rest of your point is irrelevant to the matter on ground so swallow that up.

blueyedgeek:
Earlier on you said that nothing cannot create something and something cannot create itself but yet you would still have us believe that [size=14pt]God was created by nothing or that it created itself.[/size] If you can believe that God (a made up entity as far as I can tell) is uncreated, why then do you think it is far fetched for the universe (observable) to be uncreated?

Please where did I say the bolded part?

What you miss about explanation of creationist is that, according to creationist "THE UNIVERSE comprises of MATTERS and ENERGY which originated from God/the product of creation but God was never a PRODUCT of matter and energy that's why God is ETERNAL.

If God's nature contains matter and energy which are the product of creation then we can ask WHO CREATED GOD?

The word "TO CREATE" find its use when God began the formation of the universe.

God didn't create Himself rather He brought the word "TO CREATE" into use, that is God begins EVERYTHING we see in the universe at a particular PERIOD.

plaetton:
This development is relevant in this section because here, it has been generally believed and often been asserted that the universe had a starting point, and that only only something beyond the universe, God, could have been the first cause.

Others, myself particularly, have often asked and asserted that if it is possible for the unknown entity, God, to be uncaused and self-existent, then why could the universe not equally be uncaused and self-existent ?

I have equally asserted on several ocasions that the BigBang could not have been the beginning, but rather, an inflection point in the evolution of the universe.

So, you can see why this new scientific idea, thought still at infancy, fits very well with my personal notions time and existence.

Happy reading, and lets discuss.

http://phys.org/news/2015-02-big-quantum-equation-universe.html

Here are some excerpts.



(Phys.org) —The universe may have existed forever, according to a new model that applies quantum correction terms to complement Einstein's theory of general relativity. The model may also account for dark matter and dark energy, resolving multiple problems at once.


Although the Big Bang singularity arises directly and unavoidably from the mathematics of general relativity, some scientists see it as problematic because the math can explain only what happened immediately after—not at or before—the singularity.


Tag: Deepsight.

If this is true then it's a bad idea for some Christian Clergies who have agreed with Big Bang theory and most importantly the Islamic scholars who have almost put the very word BIG BANG in their Qu'ran

Who created the universe?
There are only three possibilities from where the universe can come from and by way of elimination I will arrive at the scientific evidence of the origin of the universe which took just 6 days.

(1). The universe created itself; or

(2). The universe has always existed, or

(3). The universe was created.

But one thing is for sure;

1. The universe created itself:

Can something create itself? Can nothing create something? The answer to these is an absolute No. We all know that something cannot create itself and nothing can't create something. From Latin we have the phrase "ex nihilo, nihil fit" meaning "from nothing, nothing comes." It also violates the law of cause and effect, that says for every effect there must be a cause. The effect can't be greater than the cause and nothing cannot be greater than something. Therefore, based on the laws of science and logic, the universe couldn't have created itself.

2. The univese has always existed:

Lets go to the 2nd law of thermodynamics that basically teaches that "the whole universe is losing usable energy for doing usable work." This means that the usable energy in this universe is wearing down. The universe as a whole is losing energy. In other words, molecules as a whole are slowing down.

Therefore, if this universe was eternal we will be in what is called a "virtual heat death." This means that there will be virtually no molecular movement. Everything would have lost its available heat energy for doing work. Therefore, the universe cannot be eternal, it must have had a beginning. The theory that the universe has always existed or is eternal has to be false based on the law of science and logic, another speculation gone with the air. This leaves us with only one possibility based on science.

3. The universe was created:

"In the Beginning God created the heavens and the earth." -- Genesis 1:1

Science confirms the biblical verse that in the beginning God created the heaven and the earth as I have just proved. With the above verse we see that God is outside time. He is eternal, with no beginning or end. He also knows all things, being infinitely intelligent. To recognise His handiwork, you should be able to know how to recognise the evidence of the works of His intelligence. This is simple.

CAPTIVATOR:
@ Emusan ..... [size=14pt]MODALISM PREACHER,[/size]

Until you provide an evidence for the bolded part then I'll take you serious.

thaoriginator:
So because PDP has been caught red handed you want to rope APC into the fraud right? It won't work sir, PDP are the master riggers no question.

Are you defending APC?

What is wrong with this gullible people?

See how this thread dry like on top of Galilee simply because it against both PDP and APC and the paid E-warrior.
Gullible people

RikoduoSennin:
Coming to do What exactly? Inspect God's Temple or Judge mankind etc ?

Compare these two statement
"...who is to come" Rev 1:8 and "...Surely I am coming soon." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus!" Rev 22:20

So the person who is coming is the Almighty God.

No the Point is Jesus is a Mighty God (Divine being) and The Father is Almighty God (also a Divine being) Just like Angels, Satan and Man are also Divine beings/Gods.

The Father just happens to be at the end of a very long chain of Divine beings.

Just SMH for you...you keep twisting your on word...if everything is DIVINE why would God put ALL THE FULLNESS OF DIVINITY on Jesus again and what are these FULLNESS?

The message was transmitted by SIGNS and there was dialogue between Jesus and John, John and several Angels. The Context helps in identifying who was speaking.

So who is coming according to the context of that verse 8 remember verse 7 has already put everything to be Jesus "Behold, [size=14pt]he is coming with the clouds,[/size] and every eye will see him, every one who pierced him"

Will an Almighty God need the HELP of SOMEONE who is the ONLY BEING who can HELP HIM?
Because I can't Picture THe Father doing that!

Then why do you claimed that the same Almighty God needed the help of a created being(Jesus) to create the creations?
From beginning I've said JESUS HAS ALREADY surrendered everything to His Father so He didn't come to Earth as God instead as a HUMBLE SERVANT. Phil 2:6-7

I don't see any bold part!
I respect other peoples Faith in as much as I believe there is ONLY ONE TRUE FAITH. So what is the problem about.

Like I respect other people's faith too

At bold section, You have consistently got me wrong- I am not questioning Jesus being a God but him being Almighty God. So I am questioning The possibility of An Almighty God having Fellows/Companions?

I repeat you're using Heb 1:9 against Jesus being the Almighty God YET you don't know who are Jesus' fellows

Hebrew 2 verse What? I might have missed it in the past- I am sorry if that was the case.

Can you see yourself now
read the whole chapter.

Don't assume again and again that JW says this and that. I have not raised anything about Jesus being an Angel here- so don't speculate. Teach me without the prejudice you have for my Faith.

Do you know the meaning of speculate?
@bolded-Am I just assuming or I'm saying the fact?

Jesus is NOT the Father is a FACT- So your defination of beget does not HOLD. Jesus was created so he is not the Father. The Father begot Jesus because "He gave him life".
Oxford dictionary Says;
Beget (V): 1. To Father a Child (NB: Father not the Same as Child like you claimed)
2. To CAUSE ( which is closely synonymous to CREATE- The Father has NO CAUSE- That is a FACT)

SMH once again, THANK GOD it didn't say CREATE (but only synonymous to CREATE as your own view to prove your point) then how can Jesus be both created and begotten?
If given Jesus LIFE by the Father that made Him begotten then Adam also can be called the begotten but is this true?

It means believers are "adopted" sons of God- they are never Almighty God themselves like Their Father. Point me to any Father and Son who are the same? Now tell me Why is Jesus called "Son of the Most High and NOT the Most high himself"

Then if believers are adopted Sons then do you think calling Adam and Angels Sons have the same meaning like Jesus Sonship?
Both human father and son are the same in NATURE but different AUTHORITY,
Jesus is the Son of God that HAS THE SAME NATURE WITH HIS FATHER both are UNCREATED & EVERLASTING

STOP twisting my WORDS, [size=14pt]I said Jesus is a superior God when compared to Angels, Satan and Man- other beings that are called Gods too.[/size] That does not mean he does not have a Superior God (YHWH) he answers to. Jesus is more like a Vice President with YHWH as the President.

You keep twisting your own word just because you're confused thinking I'm the one twisting your word.

How many SUPERIOR GOD you have is what I asked you?
And you replied "Only one, The ONLY TRUE GOD- Jehovah The Almighty..."
Which you later try to relate with Nigeria government Yet we have only one PRESIDENT and others Titles Not One is the PRESIDENT and another one is the PRESIDENT but not like the other one.

So Jesus can't be SUPERIOR GOD and The Father will also be SUPERIOR God.

You're so confused to also think that Angels are SUPERIOR GOD which doesn't have any support in the scriptures.

RikoduoSennin:
At bold section, you did not mention the True side. Any way since you are so fixated on the expressions (take literally) "WITH MY OWN HANDS"- please tell me this, Did Jesus/ Whoever create the Earth and Heaven use they Literal/Physical hands to create everything or used Literal words to do the creating?

Because if you says Physical hands- I like to know how Jesus became called "God's word" [size=14pt]and our Genesis refer to Light being created by just "an uttered word".[/size]

If you say he did not physically use his hand to create everything, meaning "with my own hand" is just a figurative expression with it own meaning just like "With my own sweat".

Please enlighten me, I am willing and eager to be taught by you.

The TRUE is the sweat you mentioned.

Please at the bolded-So you know God created everything with His utterance...

The point isn't about physical/literal meaning of those phrases BUT direct claim by YHWH to involve in the creation which is far beyond the illustration you're trying to give.

Through out the Bible we see different part of YHWH being mentioned to involve in creation and the astonish part is that JESUS was associated with ALL these parts.

Now tell me when YHWH said He created the world with HIS POWER is it literal or real? If real The Bible says Jesus is the POWER of God, then tell me how can a created being (according to JW) be the power of God?

Its odd you quoted from a different bible translation that is not very common. I would have preferred KJV/NKJV.

This is pure misconception about me, I quote any version of the Bible including NWT.

Please look at the bold section of Verse 30, Compare that with Genesis 1:26 " LET US make man in OUR image" and John 5:17,19 "My Father is WORKING STILL, and I am WORKING....TRULY, TRULY, the Son can do NOTHING of his OWN ACCORD BUT ONLY WHAT HE SEES THE FATHER DOING; For whatever he (The Father) does that the Son does Likewise"

Two beings working together. One depends on the other before he does something while the other is the source (one cannot do he is accord but the other can). The Father is the architect While the Son is the "Master Worker" or Agency/Medium used in Creating everything.

The question to ask is why will God use a created being to assist Him in creation when He can do it ALONE (Which is what the Bible says)?
Again JW believe the phrase "Let US..." means God was talking to Angels(Plural), they do this to boycott the PLURALITY of Elohim which means the name of God contains is in PLURAL (as TRINITARIAN CLAIMED) not in SINGULAR.
Lastly, the point we are considering here is DID YHWH DIRECTLY INVOLVE IN CREATION?

Lol...the Father is the ARCHITECT but the Proverb 8:28-29 says "In His(YHWH) strengthening clouds above, In His(YHWH) making strong fountains of the deep. 29 In His(YHWH) strengthening clouds above, In His(YHWH) making strong fountains of the deep"
This is a direct action being carried out by YHWH not just DESIGN because Architect ONLY DESIGN.

Lastly, why would a CREATED BEING working with UNCREATED YHWH before the creation can be brought forth?

So before Jesus became Flesh he was just "A Literal WORD" or "Something like A spokesman- God's word". Please which of these Apply so that I can understand how "everything was made through him".
The above statement you made left out this important question "What exaltly was "the word of God" like during creation?

Nothing like SPOKEMAN as JW put it just to prove Jesus Christ is created and became God's spoke person, EVERYTHING about God can never be compared to man.
If God wants to communicate to man He can make His OWN Word audible and If He wants the same Word to be too hard for us to hear like the Israelite in the wilderness He can the truth is "The WORD of God is LIVING and sharper than any two-edge sword Heb 4:12,..."...through a word of God--living and remaining--to the age." 1 Peter 1:23

Can The Living Word of God be created?

Let me expose your weak understanding about the scriptures again

RikoduoSennin:
A man tells his friend I built this House with my own sweat/hands. Did he mean he was the one who did the bricklayer, electrical, roofing with his physical hands- TRUE or FALSE?

TRUE and FALSE!
FALSE in a sense that NO CLIENT will ever claimed to build a project WITH HIS OWN HANDS
Though we can see many figurative expression being used by individual who owns a project i.e I built it with my last kobo, I built it with my own money, I built it with my last breath e.t.c BUT NOT WITH MY OWN HANDS.

Jesus said "My Father keeps working and I work"- John 5:17, Read Proverb 8:22-30 "and I came beside him as a MASTER WORKER". Jesus did NOTHING of his own initiative- Read John 5:19,20,30;

Do you even know that Proverb 8:22-30 didn't favour your argument here as you always misapply scriptures? See the reason...also pay close attention to how the MASTER WORKER made His statement.
NB:- I will insert YHWH where He speaks so that at the end you can tell us whether YHWH is lying when He said He created EVERYTHING BY HIMSELF

22¶ Jehovah possessed me--the beginning of His way, Before His works since then.
23 From the age I was anointed, from the first, From former states of the earth.
24 In there being no depths, I was brought forth, In there being no fountains heavy with waters,
25 Before mountains were sunk, Before heights, I was brought forth.
26 While He(YHWH) had not made the earth, and out-places, And the top of the dusts of the world.
27 In His(YHWH) preparing the heavens I am there, In His(YHWH) decreeing a circle on the face of the deep,
28 In His(YHWH) strengthening clouds above, In His(YHWH) making strong fountains of the deep,
29 In His(YHWH) setting for the sea its limit, And the waters transgress not His(YHWH) command, In His(YHWH) decreeing the foundations of earth,
30 Then I am near Him, a workman, And I am a delight--day by day. Rejoicing before Him at all times, Proverb 8:22-30 YLT

John 1:3 " Everything was made THROUGH him (Jesus)" , Why was the word "through" used?

Everything was made through THE WORD OF GOD which becomes Jesus in the FLESH this is how to understand it.

RikoduoSennin:
Then stop replying me then- if it waste your precious time so much. You were hoping to WIN argument not communicate your thought/beliefs like I am doing. (I don't expect much from you- so I am not troubled at all)

Not about replying you but your shallow explanation of the scriptures is worrisome.

Please Check the original Greek version of Revelation 1:8 and you will find "Lord THE God" there, Then point me to where else Jesus was addressed as Lord the God.

Lol...now turn to the Greek, the point is WHO IS COMING?

The Essence is, [size=14pt]Even with all his Divinity Jesus has a personal God[/size] he said so himself numerous times not because of his humanity because he was in possession of his Divinity also.

This is the reason I said you have shallow explanation of the scriptures, DIVINITY means Jesus is a DEITY can you tell us how Jesus is a DEITY and YHWH is also a DEITY? Maybe you didn't know that the point we are trying to bring out is THE DEITY OF JESUS Christ which you've already confirmed.

Does that also Mean he still "Prays and Worship" the Father as his personal God even though he his now in Heaven with him (Just like he did on Earth?

You didn't address the first point YHWH gave Jesus the Revelation and Jesus gave Angel and Angel gave John, which means everything in Revelation is about the Father now how were you be able to extract Jesus' statement from all what YHWH gave?

While on Earth He prayed to the Father because He needed the help of the Father if the need arises in heaven He will do so.

NB: Please STOP attacking my religion. I don't attack your church or Faith do I? Address me next time. Why do people belief JW members can't think for their self? [size=14pt]Or is it because we all share the same beliefs/united in worship? If the latter is the case,[/size] we are flattered.

I must expose the lies your organization is propagating
The bolded part contradicting Watchtower because according to Watchtower only JW is a true follower of Yahweh so other Christian denomination are false according to JW, so what can you say about that?

You like argument a lot because you want to PROVE A POINT (without checking to see if the "point" is relevant).

Did Jesus have 'Fellows' or not according to Hebrew 1:9, that is my interest. Your interest lies in who the Fellows are. If we don't agree in the first instance, of what improtance is the second instance? If you want to ignore my question of If Jesus has Fellows/Companions- then its up to you to tell me the answer to your question- who are the fellows?

Tell me my points that are not relevant here...
The bone of my contention is YOU FIRST WRONGLY APPLY Heb 1:9 to mean Jesus has fellows which can't make Him to be God, and I went ahead to tell you that the companions there wasn't about His DIVINTY (Beside JW always used Heb 1:9 to prove Jesus to be Angel Michael because according to they were both Angel) and I referred you to Hebrew 2 to see who are these companions.

Yes through Creation. Jesus is never the Father, he NEVER claimed to be The Father, did he now?

Can you see your life? what you create is not you but what you beget is you, So Jesus cannot be begotten through creation.
How does the Father begot Jesus?
Then who says Jesus is the Father?

Being Equal is not the Issue, the Issue is Why are they all called "Son of God". (The reason behind that statement speaks a lot)

Even believers are also called sons of God, what does that mean?

[size=14pt]Only one, The ONLY TRUE GOD- Jehovah The Almighty.[/size] How many superior rulers does a Nigerian have- Only one- the President- others like VP, Governors etc are under The president.

Nigeria has only one superior ruler which is THE PRESIDENT, now YOU'VE ALREADY SAID Jesus is A SUPERIOR GOD can you see how confuse you are? I know you will come with another excuse.

johnydon22:
How about showing me, we both do not need to believe we have joysticks, we both know we do...
If their are evidence for any god it wont be termed belief anymore, it will be knowing (untmost certainty) but their is not hence belief (faith)

Your first statement is both physical whereas God is a spirit which is not VISIBLE to ordinary eyes which required another means to know Him just as kidneys are not physical but required another process to find it.

And am sure muslims still make this exact claim for allah hence they conclude yahweh is false...
You see that your conviction is based on your sentimental attachment to one particular fable?

Well I won't argue with you about this whether they claimed it or not BUT if both Christians and Muslims (according to you) can communicate with their God then they (Christian and Muslims) Just don't believe BUT EMPIRICALLY prove it so what we left with is WHICH GOD is the TRUE God not that God doesn't exist again.

And what are the evidences?
A book? prrrrrrrrrrrf ya right!!

More than a book personal encountered

see my first reply.. Or better still divide the red see again show me a talking donkey hahahaha...chai..

Why will He divide the red sea/make donkey talk when the need for it doesn't arise?
God has parted red sea in many people's life or made the donkey of worried, hopeless and rejected people talk today. I know you will still call this delusion.

exactly the same way the greeks claim.their myths are true even though its plain myth.
Its dead funny when you discard the Hercules story as myth but believes the samson story as true even.though the hercules story predates that of samson and the later probably was plagiarized from the former..
Their is no amount of belief that can ever make these true...

Well Myth still remains imaginable BUT what I'm telling you is people have found God above just BELIEVE.

johnydon22:
Their is no evidence that their is a god. not zeus, allah, yahweh or horus etc...
All we have is mythical ancient writings and impossible fables very peculiar to the culture that this god or gods are exclusive to.

What type of evidence do you need before you believe that the God or gods exist?

Now some people might see it ok to Believe (conviction that something is true without empirical evidence) any of these ideas (gods) and fables by faith dismissing the others as we have seen in the cases of christians believing in.yahweh and not allah and muslims doing the reverse.
Though both religions just believe by faith their respective god ideas.

First you mistakenly misapply the word "EMPIRICAL" because empirical can also means BASED ON EXPERIENCE.
Lastly, Christians can't believe in Allah of Islam simply because Yahweh is still speaking to those who love and seek Him which makes Islam false.

Now atheism entails not having a conviction that something implausible is true even though their is no evidence for it.

Well that's for Atheist.

So believing something implausible as true does not and can never make it true..

So did Christians ever tell you that they ONLY believe but NO evidence for THEIR BELIEVE?

We ask theists to provide evidence for their respective God even though we know that they have none.

So you want a theist to enter Lab and begin to perform experiment to bring God out or in what standard do you base your evidence?

You may choose to believe the jewish myth, or arabic myth or greek myth..that is good for you but we call it myth as it is and nothing more...

If you like call it Myth from now till you die that won't put God out of existence because people have found God beyond just BELIEVE.
I know you may say it's delusion well TRUTH IS ALWAYS TRUE.

The only thing that pains me most in discussing with you is my precious time you wasted.

RikoduoSennin:
Lie? I believe Revelations 1:1 answers that question well.
God (YHWH) gave Jesus, Jesus gave Angels, Angels gave John through signs.
Verses leading to verse 8 did not indicate Jesus talking to John yet.

So because YHWH gave Jesus it means it's YHWH who is speaking, when verse 8 identifies who is speaking "...and which is to come, the Almighty"

The last sentence in the book of Revelation is "...Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

You mean people like you not the Apostles I think. Because the Jews/ Jesus' disciples believe in ONLY ONE YHWH- Ephesians 4:6

So YHWH exist "more than one" you say, How then can "more than one" be equal to one/ the same like you suggested?

So prior to Jesus' earthly existence there was one YHWH, then through Fission there were two and later three, is that it?

You've answered this yourself below.

They knew YHWH used a Master worker to create all things. Hints- "Let us make", "Wisdom as master worker", "all things made THROUGH". YHWH has continously used his messengers/Angels to carry out his works.

Lol....So let us make which JWs interpreted as Sons of God to disprove the PLURALITY of God is what you interpreted as MASTER WORKER...
Please show me the verse in Hebrew Scriptures where the phrase "all things made THROUGH"

So the wisdom is it a person or intellect?

Facts: While Jesus was on Earth he was not just a Man, [size=14pt]he was also 'A' God too (fullness of the divinity dwell on him).[/size] You fail to notice that Even after Jesus resurrection and ascension to Heaven HE STILL CLAIM TO HAVE A GOD HE ANSWERS TO - John 20:17, Revelation 3:2,12.

Please if FULLNESS OF DIVINITY dwell in CHRIST, so what is the essence of your argument?

So you see Jesus having a personal God stretch beyond his human existence or are you implying that Jesus was not a God when Revelation was written?

[b]This is another dubious act of JWs you can use this verse as Jesus' statement but you claimed it is YHWH who gave Jesus then Jesus gave angel then to John Which the whole book of Revelation was spoken by YHWH through Jesus then angel then John.

The answer to your question is Jesus still possessed His HUMANITY in heaven.

Well you don't have to believe me, just believe what Hebrew 1:9 says that " Jesus has Fellows/companions" except you think that scripture does not refer to Jesus or what did your own bible say there.

In your statement below, you said [b]"YHWH is SUPERIOR to Jesus and Jesus is SUPERIOR to angel and man" So who are the FELLOWS/COMPANIONS of Jesus I still want to show you that you don't understand what that verse means before you applied it.

I don't get you, you are avoiding the issue. Even a little child knows the answer to the above-NB I am not contesting that.

I am saying Luke 1:32 clearly call Jesus "Son of the Most High" and not the "Most high" himself
who is clearly identified by YHWH at Psalms 83:18.

How then YHWH begat Jesus His son, is it through creation or what?
NB:-what you create can never be you but what you beget is you?

The difference lies in the phrase "Son of". Why was Adam and the Angels called "Sons of God", why is Jesus ALWAYS referred to as "the son of "

Was Adam and Angels equal Jesus in everyway as the were both Sons?

YHWH Never appeared to Abraham in the form of man? [size=14pt]Those where his angel representative[/size] that spoke to men of old. Or did he Fission another copy of himself different from Jesus?

The bolded part says it all.

How did you come about your conclusion of Malachi 3:6? Because Jesus clearly stated that "God is a SPIRIT" and he his In Heaven.

As per his promise: He promised Abraham not to destroy Sodom if 40 righteous exists later he changed it to 10 at Abraham's request, did he not?

Your ignorance of the scriptures makes me tired of typing, how can you say the CONVERSATION between YHWH and Abraham proved that YHWH changed His promise

YHWH is superior to Jesus, Jesus is superior to Angels, Angels his superior to Man (me)- How many superior God do I have- Jesus answers "I am going to My God and Your(RikoduoSennin's) God"- Every other Gods does not matter, since I ONLY PRAY TO THE ALMIGHTY.

The question is HOW MANY SUPERIOR GOD do you have?

MONNICO:
Please,can any Nigerians educate me on the life in BAHAMAS?

This one that nobody has commented since morning, hope all is LG (life is good) for Nigerian over there

credibleGod:
Nairaland @ justwise won't encourage my explanation but I wish u good luck

Is it for him or for me?
Why can't you do your own part?

credibleGod:
yes it is the truth unless you av a sponsor invitation.

You didn't reply my post, I asked what are your terms and conditions for sponsorship?

bingbagbo:
and that JESUS created all things

hmmm which spirit reveals things for the jws

If you read JWs' Bible you will see this obvious incoherency there,

The Author of Hebrew quoted Psalms but JWs change Heb 1:8 to "God is your throne..."

Dubious people...

You purposely boycott some of my post.

RikoduoSennin:
Now, that statement there was not made by Jesus, it was made by YHWH.

See another lie, Who spoke to John?

You mean, The Father and The Son are not the SAME but they are both The ONE called YHWH, How? In What Sense?

Absolutely YES! I repeat "It was the advent of Jesus on Earth that people know Yahweh exists more than one.

Because the Jews worshipped YHWH as their national God who spoke to them, they knew the Messiah is different from their national God- Acts 2:22-24.

SMH...did they know also that the Messiah is the CREATOR of all things or YHWH is only the creator?

So then, we should not DOWN PLAY Jesus' having his own Personal God (YHWH) by bringing up his humanity as an excuse. How can a God have his God whom he answers to yet still called an Almighty?

I can see how you misunderstood my point here, I said the Father becomes Jesus God at His HUMANITY not when Jesus had not taken on flesh. So the divinity of Jesus isn't about His life on EARTH after the DIVINE EVARLASTING LIFE had taken on flesh.

The scriptures never called Jesus "The Almighty" because that would be Fallacious.

It does.

It should be an implication on your side not mine because the purpose you asked that question is to buttress Hebrew 1:9.

Lolzzz...please you believe Jesus was the FIRSTCREATED of God, so can you tell us now who are the FELLOWS of Jesus Christ? because you believe Jesus has fellows which is the reason why you FIRST QUOTED Heb 1:9 not me

Psalms 83:18 " The Most High is called Yahweh"
Luke 1:32- " Jesus is the SON of the Most High NOT the Most High himself WHO gave him the throne of David"

See how you keep exposing your ignorance was the throne of David given to Jesus before His life on Earth or after He became Human?

Malachi 3:6 " YHWH does not CHANGE- he does not change his form from Spirit to flesh"

See another ignorance in display, Yahweh appeared to Abraham in form of Man does it mean Yahweh change?
Beside what Malachi 3:6 was addressing is Yahweh will never change IN HIS PROMISE not even talking about NATURE.

Jesus is [size=14pt]a superior God[/size] to every other Gods EXCEPT the one he calls his GOD/YHWH.

I got this from your previous post "he is Almighty God? Jesus never claimed to be Almighty God. [size=14pt]He was sent by a superior God.[/size]

Lolzzz so how many SUPERIOR GOD do you have?
If Jesus is a SUPERIOR God why the NWT translated John 1:1 as a god?

justwise:
@Emusan

Be very careful, don't be a victim.

I gat you, thanks brother!

olawalehenry:
Can you pls explain more on the two kind of Sins

One is of the NATURE and the other is of DISOBEDIENT to the Law.

and can I tell you that from here is when death reigned till the time of Moses when the law came into being, and I don't think that he begged God for the forgiveness of his sin.

So since you THINK that he didn't, why asked whether God forgave him?