₦airaland Forum

I used to have that don't-question-pastors attitude before. Now, I realize that we are to do so. We are not to insult, harm or slander them, but we are to scrutinize their actions, and of course their sermons. We take that "touch not my annointed" to another level. When God says we should "test the spirits", how else are we to go about it. We are to scrutinize our pastors' actions and see if they tally with the bible. Contrary to what many pastors would have us believe (many who don't say this directly imply it by their actions), the bible is our only standard. God cannot give new instructions to the pastor that aren't backed by the bible. All christians are as important to God, pastor or congregation member.

I'm not saying pastor Chris shouldn't have as many businesses as possible. However, God has given guidelines concerning how tithes and offerings should be spent. Most nigerian churches do not follow these guidelines. Members have a right to check if their pastor, and church, is following the bible. There's this misconception now though, that when u challenge anything a pastor does, u've sinned. That's what has enabled this non-compliance with biblical guidelines to persist.

Amen, thanks otokx.

I don't think God hates physical temples. However, the real Temple are the individual members of the Church. God dwells in us, not in the buildings.

mrmayor,

sorry, i misunderstood u. i thought u meant the churches earn the money members donate.

imagine that they want church members who might not even know what their next meal would be to contribute to buy birthday presents for a pastor who has 2 Toyota cars

Some ppl say Jesus was rich while on earth, I don't think so. Which passage in the bible supports that position?

I think the problem is that the way they talk about money in the church gives the impression that being wealthy is a sign of God's approval. This means that all rich people have God's approval, while the poor ones don't. This is a very bad teaching, as even the apostles knew poverty.

This teaching is leading church members to look for money from anywhere at all costs. This is anti-christian. We are supposed to seek the Kingdom of God and wait for the money and other things to come.

Money seems to be the most important issue in church now.

I don't agree that church-owned airlines would be safer, rather, I believe that they may be riskier. My experience with church businesses - i attended a church-owned school - is that they often play down on quality of service and other important things because they believe customers/members would stick to them. People never want to criticize anything connected with God, so they just overlook their deficiencies.

raldsfield:
If the church has so much money, billions of =N= and don't know what to do with it, the can build hospitals like the white guys did when the came here many years ago and give free medical service, if this happens infact I will start paying my tithe. For now I will give it directly to those that God inspires me to help.

Very true. The whole essence of collecting money in church is to take care of full time workers and the needy. I believe that churches should by now have free schools and hospitals in the North and some of the remote southern villages. How else do they want to evangelize the North anyway? That would have much more effect than the very expensive crusades they hold all the time.

I was so put off by this abuse of church money that I almost stopped giving offerings some time ago. Right now, I pay tithes to the church, but when I start working and earning money I can't imagine that I would put my hard-earned money in the churches I see in Nigeria now. I'd rather use it to help orphans.

raldsfield:
The level of corruption and evil happening in Nigeria, simply tells you that the pastors are not doing a good job, the are not speaking up. They should leave business for businessmen and politics for politicans. Jesus, did not do any of those. People have lost the sense of value and the church will not help them find it.

The pastors are not just not speaking up, they're accepting stolen money and indirectly encouraging corruption. They've made money look like a sign of God's approval, so that any church that doesn't have much money seems to be doing things wrong.

I believe pastors should face the responsibility of shepherding God's flock and leave money matters to appointed officials. The problem we have in Pentecostal circles is anyone can claim God told him something and ppl accept it since they weren't there. This is even worse with pastors, since they actually are supposed to be representing God.

Seun:
It is just not fair on other companies that churches don't have to pay tax despite making so much profits. I support this.

I think companies owned by churches pay tax, it's just the church that doesn't. The companies also have to go thru the incorporation, or whatever, process.

mrmayor:
Donnie
I have no real problem with religious organizations spending their hard earned money as they please.

Hard Earned offerings, tithes and donations aren't hard earned at all. of course, some pastors work hard forcing or manipulating members to contribute, but whichever way church money isn't hard earned. It's money people give to God.

mrmayor:
Donnie
The queston still remains who owns Christ Embassy,business and other assets? Pastor Chris or Church members. If Pastor Chris dies who inherits the church and business?
I'm just curious,make u no vex

Probably his children, or any other person he wills them to. I believe Christ Embassy is a one-man church i.e. he is the sole founder.

Shagari2:
At least the dosh is not going in some swiss bank acc. if it takes someone to collect 10% of everyones salary to creat employment for 1000's of others than so be it, what has OBJ and his lot done with all the loot their stashing away!

I'm sorry, but I believe OBJ is better than some pastors (this doesn't necessarily mean Pastor Chris). OBJ is there for himself, representing himself. Pastors are there representing God and many of them deceive the people. Politicians can manipulate and get away with it. Pastors should not.


I don't know what God sent Pastor Chris to do so I can't judge him. However, it seems this business stuff is a trend among Nigerian churches now. I believe that Pastors should not be involved in business. If there is going to be a business, I believe someone else should run it. But that's by the way. The most important thing is that the church should take care of its needy. Poverty in Nigeria would be reduced if all churches were doing this. In the long run, it is God that would judge us all.

He was probably fed up with life but scared of committing suicide.

Idollier, most ppl dont fully cover the hair and I believe that's what the bible must have been referring to. most of the time, ppl cover just the top of their heads.

also, except u cover ur head all day long, there's no how u can cover ur head everytime u pray. there are times, maybe on ur way to work, that u're faced with a difficult situation or u just feel like talking to God. do u start looking for a scarf first?

Considering that a woman's head is her husband, it seems the passage is referring to married women.

The passage talks about praying, not going to church. We pray at home, on the road, in the bathroom, at all times. If you say we should wear headcovers, then we must put it on at all times. Plus, I believe that the covering isn't using hats and other kinds of headgears that leave parts of the hair showing. It would have to be like the muslim women use. No strand of hair should show, and it should be at all times not just to church.


When I was in the boarding house, we girls were on low-cut, and the principal allowed us go to church like that since we were "shaven". I don't cover my hair because I dont like it, and I dont think the church is sincere about it. They bring white women to preach with their heads uncovered, but they expect me to cover mine because i'm black. I don't like that.

From the bible, we see that money is meant to take care of the needy. Money is supposed to meet the needs of the full time workers - including pastors -, widows, orphans, foreigners.

It's so unfortunate that they're not doing this.

Personally, I believe that the greatest problem with the church in Nigeria is money. The church is running after money and has forsaken the calling of God. Money is now the master, rather than the servant. In the early church, money wasn't exactly a factor. Those who had brought what they had and shared with the needy. The apostles faced their evangelistic callings and appointed people over the sharing of things. Today, it is not so. I feel very passionate about this issue because I belong to a church where money is being abused. It wasn't like this years ago. Nowadays, the church only wants members to give and doesnt think of the welfare of members. They tell members to trust in God for their own, but they want members to contribute to the church fund. The tithes that should be used to take care of widows and orphans (and pastors) are used to build large, enviable structures. It's like the churches, even within denominations, are competing with themselves. Church buildings have become a status symbol. Churches spend over 20 million naira building, when members can't eat. How can they spend so much beautifying a building, and neglect the actual Temple of God - the individuals. Gradually, we're having more and more hungry and needy ppl coming to worship in magnificent buildings. All the pastors have to say is give, trust God. They're almost making God look like a liar.

kafero:
Happiness is in an individual. You are as happy as you make yourself to be!
I am a Nigerian and I am very happy- if I move to Ghana tommorrow I am still going to be happy. See, render the little help you can in life, accept the fact that there will be sufferings around and just live your life.Life is short so be happyand accept your person.

I think what they mean is Nigerians as a whole. There may be Nigerians who aren't happy, but when considered as a group, Nigerians are happier than citizens of other countries. The whole world knows that Nigerians aren't all comfortable and satisfied. We are generally hopeful people, we always believe that things would turn out well one day. Even those who dont believe anything good can come out of Nigeria are positive concerning themselves. This is probably what makes us happy. A psychologist who was talking about these reports on tv said Nigerians, and Africans in general, hardly suffer from depression. And that, depression is not a disease of poor people only. Happiness is not based on the circumstances the person is in alone, it is the state of mind. For people in our condition we're really happy people. You can see that by the way we celebrate - parties, birthdays, naming ceremonies, weddings etc. We love celebrations. We love dancing; even songs that lament over the situation of the country feature dancers!

ajia23:
@mlks_baby

Actually as a muslim, I am made to believe God possesses no sons or daughters. So it is of no consequence when somebody says he is son of God. I recognise myself and other created beings as servants of God.

Considering that the original question was the similarities and differences btw C & I:

This actually shows how different Christianity is from Islam. The bible tells us that we, christians, are sons and daughters of God. Jesus actually said He isn't calling us servants, but friends. He says we're joint heirs with Him. If we suffer with Him, we would share in His Kingdom.

ajia23:
And since Jesus (ASW) did not call himself God in the bible, even by biblical accounts, he still remains son of God, not God.

The bible holds that He is the Son of God, and that He is God John 1:1 Christians believe the bible - everything in it. We believe that everything in it was inspired by God, so we dont judge by Jesus' statements only. However, Jesus inferred that He is God in different ways. One of the most significant - IMO - is in John 8. The Jews had been questioning His authority and He replied, "Before Abraham was, I AM". This is the name by which God introduced Himself to Moses and the Isrealites. They didn't use the phrase, "I AM" in speech out of reverence. It would have been blasphemous to use it anyhow. They understood that Jesus was applying the name to Himself, thus declaring His deity. They tried to kill Him for that.

When He was called God by Thomas (My Lord and My God) He didn't protest. He accepted the title. If He wasn't God, He would have protested, considering He was devout and never had been guilty of any sin, especially not blasphemy.

Even if you want to go about it logically, if He said He's d Son of God then that sets Him apart from all humans, since we all agree God isn't a human. That puts Him on the same level as God, like they're of the same species.

Seun, I fear what kind of society we would have if homosexuality, bestiality and incest are allowed. You know the health implications of these actions on the population. Eventually the family structure would be broken down.

AS Mariory said, a libertarian society would lead to anarchy and is impossible.

There are many customs and traditions ppl held centuries ago that we agree are bad. In the future, ppl may ban eating of domestic animals and think of us in the same light. Just like slavery in bible days, it was accepted everywhere as a normal. Usually the slaves were debtors who couldnt pay. However, God warned them to treat the slaves well. He gave instructions for their release. Those ppl weren't as civilized as we are and we can't judge them by our standards.

The white slavetraders who enslaved our ancestors were downright wicked even by standards of the Egyptians in Moses' time. This was made worse by the fact that the world was becoming civilized and people were already learning that some things are just not right. These ppl obviously had no regards for the lives of Africans.

This is not to absolve David of any wrongdoing. David was a sinner like all of us. Salvation in christianity is something many ppl cannot understand. It's hard to imagine how someone can do so many bad things and just say to God that He is sorry and God would declare him forgiven. God even went as far as calling David a man after his own heart - a Holy and Righteous God calling murderer and adulterer a man after his own heart. Obviously, God must have totally wiped David's slate clean.

ajia23:
@ mlks_baby

Adam(ASW) neither had a father nor mother, so if you view Jesus as a Miracle, Adam(ASW) I suppose was an even greater miracle. However, it is beyond me to compare the Prophets of God. Let God handle that himself. It is wrong to compare Prophet's in Islam, they all have their special purposes. Jesus (ASW) is special, there's no denying that, but I wouldn't want to engage in self gratifying praise at how superior my own Prophet is over theirs. They are all ours too in Islam.

Please enjoy your faith, and i will enjoy mine too.

Both Adam and Jesus are miracles. The bible calls Jesus the Second Adam. They were both born without sin. I believe that it is wrong to compare prophets because they are to do God's bidding, not that of men. It is God who gives them the assignment, we are to receive them.

I'm curious, what's this "ASW" stuff you write behind names?

ikilima:
why don't you the christains think deep,if you said he is the son
of GOD that means mary is the wife of God, but we believe jesus
is like any other prophets they both preach on one God. why don't you think
about it before you post your comments. all we the muslims believe in is
Allah is one and is messenger Muhhammad.

The bible already explains that how Jesus was born so there's no question about Mary being God's wife. You have to understand that even though the Koran also talks about Jesus and other prophets, Christians go by the Bible's account ONLY. According to the bible, Jesus said He is the Son of God. We believe it.

BTW, why is Muhammed regarded greater when he sinned and Jesus didn't?

Ajia23,

I believe there are many muslims who hate this violence, but they have to be more active in rescuing their religion from irrational extremists. The muslims in America condemned the violence that followed the Danish cartoons, but we didn't hear of any sanctions. They're not doing anything to prevent a future occurence, even though we know a future provocation would bring about such a reaction. There was a case of female students beating up their teacher and taking to the streets because a female teacher (i dont know her religion) seized a Koran from a girl who was reading it during a class after she'd been warned to stop. This is very abnormal of girls and that it happened during the Danish cartoon row only goes to show that some muslim youths are beginning to think that's the right way to handle issues. It is very wrong for students to insult their teachers, not to talk of beating a teacher. I believe the school should have been closed down, or the girls involved should have been suspended for a year and denied admission into any other govt. school for the period. We didn't hear anything about the girls being punished. This is what I mean by muslims not doing anything. Even if the govt. didnt, muslim groups could have called for punishment.


If the opposition weren't persistent, the Roman Catholic church would have been the only church now. Many protestants were killed in the process, but eventually they were able to pull away from the RC church. Theirs was a very active opposition. They weren't afraid to criticize the RC because they were sure that those practices were unbiblical. They wanted to return to the bible. The oppostion to the violence within Islam is quite passive. I guess no one wants to risk getting killed. That's very understandable, but I believe there must be a way to handle this.


It's very true that people are prone to overstepping boundaries. Many times, we carry our personal grievances and attitudes into religion and make the religion look bad. Even though it isn't fashionable to fight in Christendom anymore, there are some things we do here in Nigeria that I believe are unbiblical. Like praying your enemy should fall down and die. I have prayed some of those prayers myself and am as guilty as anyone else, but I believe it's wrong. It's violent (I know they encourage "violent" prayers). Jesus thought to pray for - not against- our enemies.

mamaput:
Anyway i have learned somethings here and one of them is that even Christians are not united

Here's what I've read about this issue:

Different denominations overplay and/or downplay certain issues in the bible. This is the basis of the different denominations. This is usually influenced by the background and personalities of the founders. For example, Nigerians (or Africans) believe there are always supernatural forces at work and do things to enable them overcome the evil forces and gain the favour of the good force. It is more likely to see Nigerian churches taking deliverance more seriously than catholic churches, which have european origins. It is also more likely to see a Nigerian catholic talking about spirits and demons than an American catholic.

There are fundamental christian doctrines such as Trinity, Virgin birth, Jesus' Deity, death and resurrection etc. There are also non-fundamental doctrines such as baptism methods, deliverance, abortion, birth control, dressingetc. Taking into note the meaning of chrisitanity, and the fact that christians accept the authority of the bible, the fundamental doctrines are so essential to christianity that anyone who doesn't believe in them isn't considered a christian. There's a little allowance for variation with the non-fundamental doctrines. However, some denominations go so far out of what the bible allows and other denominations refuse to align with them. These allowances are allowed (this is my own opinion now) because the bible isn't explicit on these issues.

The Jehova's Witnesses for example, differ on fundamental dotrines and aren't considered as christians by many christians. Most denominations have their own version of many non-fundamental doctrines, though many of these versions are the similar. The Catholic church, however, has some really different versions of some non-fundamental doctrines that are clearly unbiblical, but since those doctrines aren't fundamental to christianity, they are considered Christians.

There's this maxim:

In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; and in all things charity.

If all christians go by this, denominationalism wouldn't look like a big issue anymore.

hey Falciparum, what's d link to d BMHS old students association? I was also in the class of 2002 but I left after JSS1 in 1997.

Ashiwaju:
Well, from what i can see, we don't all understand of what consequencies it would be if they impose high tariff on Imported good. You guys should talk from individual perspectives, if the local industries must work they should do more of quality and with that people would prefer them to foriegn goods.

I believe imposing high tariffs would be good for the local industries. It would put foreign goods out of the reach of most people, and they would be forced to buy local products. we have a mentality that puts down any thing local. we struggle to buy foreign products because it's like a status symbol, being able to use the most expensive goods. we dont even give the locally made goods a chance. if we're forced to use them, we would discover the ones that are good, the ones that are substandard and can help the local industries improve.

also, we'll be securing local jobs rather than foreign ones. i think that's enough to encourage anyone. even those who have good jobs would benefit from the increased employment patronizing locally made procucts can provide.

concerning quality, higher patronage would provide the funds local companies require to improve their quality. plus, we tend to look down on made in Nigerian goods. most of the Asian products we buy are of poor quality. if we can spend so much on Chinese goods that are mostly imitation goods, we might as well spend that money on Nigerian goods. I believe Nigerians are capable of producing better products than the Chinese.

Bibi, is there any proof that God wrote the Koran? How, when and where did He write it? Where is the original Koran He wrote, how did He send it to Mohammed and were there witnesses?

Actually those similarities you mentioned arent so similar when you consider that some of the important things about Abraham - Isaac being his heir - are denied by the Koran. Plus, Christianity is based on the New Testament, this doen't diminish the importance of the OT though. However, anything that agrees with the OT, but not the NT is at best Judaism. The difference between Chrstianity and Judaism is just the NT.

Ajia23, it is very true that when muslims are violent ppl link it to the Koran but when christians are violent we say they're acting on their own. It's the same as what I said in my last post about those protesting Kenyans. I think the reason is that muslims around the world do these things all the time in the name of religion. We have much fewer cases today of christians fighting and killing in the name of Christianity. Plus, they say (i've not read it) that the Koran tells muslims to kill unbelievers, but the bible preaches peace. You must face the fact that muslims haven't helped it, they back their actions up with the Koran. They say if they die with the blood of an unbeliever on their hands they'll go straight to heaven. They even shoult "Allah" as they're doing it. They even kill themselves. All this portrays Islam as violent. A Jordanian editor said during the Danish cartoon row that all these terrorism done in the name of Islam are worse than the cartoons, they almost killed him. It is this violence we see round the world that makes ppl say Islam is violent.

There are many things christians do that's wrong, but why it seems different is that whenever a christian does something "wrong", so many other christians come out to fight it and even try to force them to stop doing it. On the contrary, take the case of Amina Lawal and other muslim ladies sentenced to death by Sharia. They run to Western countries for help. The whole world condemns the sentence, including foreign (usually in Western countries) muslim clerics. But the Islamic world never does anything to prevent such sentences from being given next time. It's this their lack of action against violence that's the problem.

Ajia23, I don't think those Kenyans did anything wrong by protesting, or even insulting the author or producer of Da Vinci Code. Compare that to the reaction of muslims over the Danish cartoons. I don't see anything wrong with their call for the banning of the movie, though I think it would have been wiser to advise their members not to watch the movie. Of course it is wrong to burn someone's cinema for showing a movie you don't like and we can expect they would face the legal consequences of doing that. If what you were saying is that the bible encourages that, you're wrong. John once wanted to call fire upon some people but Jesus refused.

Actually, it seems u didnt understand the part of my post you quoted. To explain it further, consider the Da Vinci Code book and movie produced in a country built on christian principles. It hasn't been banned, the author and producer have not been killed. This can not happen in a muslim country; for a citizen to write blasphemous things about Islam. That's what I was saying there.

This whole debate only answers the question the author of this thread asked. It shows that christianity is different from islam. We christians have been talking from the bible, just as you and other muslims have been talking from the Koran's perspective. We've been talking about Jesus and other issues, and we can't come to a meeting point because the Koran says different things about these issues from the bible. Since Christianity is based on the bible's revelation and Islam is based on the Koran's, we can only conclude that Christianity is fundamentally different from Islam. I say fundamentally because there are seeming similarities, but when we get to the core of it, our monothesitic views are about all the similarity there is.


Please note that I'm not in any way saying Islam is inferior to Christianity, all I'm saying is that they hold two very different beliefs on an issue that is the foundation of Christianity and are therefore different. It would help if you think of it as Christians and muslims being people who hold different views on certain issues.


Mamaput, we're not disputing that there are similarities btw the two religions. All we're saying is that the similarities aren't much more than our monotheistic views. It is true the two holy books talk of several ppl like Abraham, Isaac, Jesus etc. However, the Koran says some very important things (according to the bible) differently. The main difference btw the two religions is that the Koran sees Jesus as a prophet and denies that He died and rose. The issue here is that this is the foundation of Christianity. Denying that has made Islam very different from Christianity, as the bible even warns against doctrines that would deny Jesus' divinity. If Islam didn't deny that, it would have been seen in the same light as some other "christian" groups with different doctrines.

I don't like cooking. I'm an expert at preparing Indomie though.

There's nothing wrong with acquiring a new presidential jet since it belongs to the country. By the way, how does the Ghanian president travel? Chartered Jet? If he travels as much as OBJ, he won't even consider that. Considering Nigeria's status in Africa and especially West Africa, I don't think there's anything wrong at all.

I don't know how they carry out their research but their statistics never seem to reflect the situation on ground.

Apart from the fact that these countries depend on Nigeria, many of their citizens don't feel this "improvements". Many West Africans see Nigerians as big spenders. There's this school in Cotonou that' about as expensive as Igbinedion University, and there are so many Nigerians. As at 2003, the school was more like an extension of Nigerian universities, as most students and lecturers were Nigerians. I wanted to visit so I asked some Beninoise ppl living around who travel home frequently. They all said there could never be a school like that because no one can afford it.

It's not true Nigeria is lagging behind while other West African countries move forward. I've never been to any of these countries, but I believe Abuja is as beautiful, or bcoming as beautiful, as their capitals. From what I've heard from ppl who visit Ivory Coast, Ghana, Togo, Benin regularly, the capitals are about all that is beautiful. Plus, it's mostly whites who occupy the good areas, and provide the better services. The worst areas and jobs are left for the natives.

Ashiwaju,

I don't doubt that Tinubu is a good politician, but we need more than a politician. A politician's politicking skills are for his own benefit; they would get him to the desired position. To move the country forward, he must know what to do and how to go about it with the position.

Sometimes I wonder what the advisers to the governors are doing, at least if the governors have no ideas, they should. One major plus of the OBJ administration is the appointment of ppl like Soludo, El-Rufai, Okonjo-Iweala, Ezekwesili, Akunyili etc. They've brought improvements in their fields. If we had such ppl at the state levels, this country would be better off.

how about things like incest. if a brother and sister, or even father and daughter, decide they love each other and want to get married, they're not hurting anyone so that's allowed?

How about bestiality, showing sexual scenes on tv, pornography on tv, and sexual activities in public?

The ban on smoking in public places and advertising tobacco would not be, in a libertarian system, too.