₦airaland Forum

Some exchanges were had between gohf and jimrohn in https://www.nairaland.com/8421569/make-sense-number-things-heard#135312694

Of which jimrohn had many accusative remarks

Now I asked an AI, whom I will post it's responses in red:

I want you to objectively analyze the conversation between gohf and jimrohn, by being brutally honest if gohf questions are misleading and if jimrohn responses properly answer the questions of gohf, logically without contradictions and fallacy. give you analysis without regard to any of them and purely based on the conversation

Okay, I'm ready. Please provide the conversation between gohf and jimrohn. I will analyze it objectively, focusing on the clarity, logic, and potential for misleading elements in gohf's questions and the effectiveness of jimrohn's responses. I will aim to identify any contradictions or fallacies present. Let's begin!

AntiChristian:
Stop repeating your folly. A repetition of bunkum doesn't make it tangibly sensible!

Names are just names when it's for humans.

What does YHVH mean?

Why is it YHVH and not YHWH?

Where does Yahweh and Jehovah come from?

Your God doesn't even have a clear name and you're here arguing about the meaning of names!

Abeg stop mentioning me in your follies!

It's sickening!

People gave birth and name their kids what they felt okay! Then you judge the kids based on the names they were not aware of.

You know that "a repetition of bunkum doesn't make it tangibly sensible" but yet you do that most of the time. And this your post here is an example of you doing exactly that.

TenQ:
jimrohn thinks that re-asserting his noises make him correct unfortunately, he isn't willing to think of the consequences of his claims.



They don't even have copies of copies of copies of the Uthmanic Qur'an. This is why they have to rely on the recitation of the Qur'an according to Hafs (and NOT a copy of the Qur'an of Uthman) who they all agree to be a fraud and a thief. The Hafs recitation of the Qur'an was made the standard text officially in 1924 with the publication of the Cairo edition under the patronage of Fuad I of Egypt.

Prior to this, there were several dozens of conflicting Arabic Qur'ans.



Mohammed could indeed read and write even though he had secretaries who wrote for him

https://www.nairaland.com/7805486/another-lie-islam-mohammed-sold



All the Qur'ans are missing.
The Qur'an of Mohammed (7 Ahruf)
The Qur'an of Abubakar
The Qur'an of Uthman

This was why the resorted to using the Qur'an according to the RECITATION of Hafs.

not surprised Quran actually means recitation, it's probably why they recite it and not teach it, unlike the Torah that means teaching and instruction. It wasn't meant to be taught nor explain but recited and accepted as a saying that even they can't explain.

AntiChristian:
I asked "And you claim YHVH, some claim YHWH, some introduce vowels Yahweh. Some anglicise it as Jehovah. Which of these exactly did God reveal to Moses as His name?

I don't expect Moses to call all of them or some random alphabets as his God's name!"

What's my business with what a name means? Names ordinary are never to be translated across languages. You can't change Olawale a Yoruba name to Igbo and then to Hausa just because you are translating Yoruba to those languages. That's one folly of the biblical translations.

Elijah and Elisha are Prophets of Allah not by name but by appointment!

And Elisha didn't curse 40 lads to death because they called him baldhead in Islam. Na Bible talk am! YHVH dey kpai kids!

you can't explain how a prophet of Allah is proclaiming that YHVH is his God?

how Zakariya remembers YHVH and not allah?

Even the Messiah's name is y'shua meaning YHVH saves not Allah saves

I asked: "O Messenger of Allah, when were you [first] a Prophet?" He replied: "When Allah created the earth ‘Then turned He to the heaven, and fashioned it as seven heavens’(2:29), and created the Throne, He wrote on the leg of the Throne: "Muhammad the Messenger of Allah is the Seal of Prophets" (Muhammadun Rasûlullâhi Khâtamu al-Anbiyâ'). Then Allah created the Garden in which He made Adam and Hawwa' dwell, and He wrote my name on the gates, its tree-leaves, its domes and tents, at a time when Adam was still between the spirit and the body. When Allah Most High instilled life into him he looked at the Throne and saw my name, whereupon Allah informed him that 'He [Muhammad SAWS] is the liege-lord of all your descendants.' When Satan deceived them both, they repented and sought intercession to Allah with my name."

For a copy and fake to be an original it must get rid of the original, it will hate and try to replace it or at least portray the original as fake and it's self as original.

I find the following text bemusing

When Adam committed his mistake he said: O my Lord, I am asking you to forgive me for the sake of Muhammad. Allah said: O Adam, and how do you know about Muhammad whom I have not yet created? Adam replied, O my Lord, after You created me with your hand and breathed into me of Your Spirit, I raised my head and saw written on the heights of the Throne:

LA ILAHA ILLALLAH MUHAMMADUN RASULULLAH

I understood that You would not place next to Your Name but the Most Beloved One of Your creation. Allah said: O Adam, I have forgiven you, and were it not for Muhammad I would not have created you."

First the above Hadith was declared sound by many of the scholars of Hadith...



It is said that this hadith explains the verse: 'And Adam received words from his Lord and He relented towards him'

the Prophet says: "When satan deceived Adam and Eve, they repented and sought intercession to Allah with my name"; Ibn al-Jawzi also says in the chapter concerning the Prophet's superiority over the other Prophets in the same book: "Part of the exposition of his superiority to other Prophets is the fact that Adam asked his Lord through the sanctity (hurmat) of Muhammad that He relent towards him, as we have already mentioned."


Majmu`at al-fatawa in the volume on tasawwuf (11:95-97):

Muhammad is the Chief of the Children of Adam, the Best of Creation, the noblest of them in the sight of Allah. This is why some have said that "Allah created the Universe due to him," or that "Were it not for him, He would have neither created a Throne, nor a Footstool, nor a heaven, earth, sun or moon."

However, this is not a hadith on the authority of the Prophet, but it may be explained from a correct aspect...

Since man is the seal and last of all creation, and its microcosm, and since the best of man is thus the best of all creation absolutely, then Muhammad, being the Pupil of the Eye, the Axis of the Mill, and the Distributor to the Collective, is as it were the Ultimate Purpose from amongst all the purposes of creation. Thus it cannot be denied to say that "Due to him all of this was created", or that "Were it not for him, all this would not have been created," so if statements like this are thus explained according to what the Book and the Sunna indicate, it is acceptable.

a separate hadith in the wording: "Were it not for Muhammad, I would not have created the spheres (al-aflak)."

the Prophet said: "Gabriel came to me and said: O Muhammad! Were it not for you, Paradise would not have been created, and were it not for you, the Fire would not have been created."

And Ibn `Asakir's narration has: And were it not for you, the world would not have been created."

NairaLTQ:
Hello JimRohn :

The Nairaland Placed me under ban for the posts below. So, here it is again!

wow you are tenq. Us expecting jimrohn to be forthright might just be a waste of time, I wish he or better still any truthful Muslim would answer this questions. Especially where is the original Quran text, the very first one.

Seeing as unlike the Bible they claim doesn't have an original copy, surely they have their don't they.

From your exchange with jimrohn I have become confused as to if Muhammad could write or not, at first he said he couldn't but then he said being illiterate doesn't mean he couldn't write but that he wasn't educated in scripture, so therefore we should see it has a miracle that scripture came from him.

I also noticed he did not deny that abubaka and uthman wrote in the Quran, I also asked some informed arabs online and they confirmed what you wrote.

This question you have posed is highly relevant, where is the original Quran text?

honesttalk21:
Spare the pointless back and forth. And say what they mean in Arabic. You aren't as confident of your Arabic language proficient expertise now?


Did you not argue that angels cannot take another form?



Yada yada yada, forgetful Jones Tenq forgot what he said

what does ilyas mean? Please tell us. He is a prophet of God.

Is Allah and YHVH the same God?

No, Allah and YHWH are not the same God. While both are used in Abrahamic religions to refer to the one God, they represent different concepts and beliefs.

is it possible that Abraham worshipped both allah and YHVH as one God?

It's a complex question, and the answer depends on how one interprets religious texts and theological perspectives.
while it's possible to interpret Abraham's faith as a transition to worshipping one God (Yahweh), the question of whether he worshipped Allah and YHWH as one God is a theological and interpretational matter with varying viewpoints within different religious traditions.

objectively what language did Abraham speak?
Objectively, Abraham, who originated from Ur of the Chaldees in Mesopotamia, would have spoken Aramaic, which was the language of the Chaldeans at that time. Aramaic was a Semitic language closely related to Hebrew. While the Bible later uses Hebrew, it's more likely that Aramaic was Abraham's native tongue.

It's unlikely that Abraham spoke Arabic, as it's believed Arabic emerged later.

what is the aramaic term for allah?

In Aramaic, the word for God is "Elaha" (singular) or "Alaha" (emphatic state). This is a common term for God in Aramaic, a language closely related to Arabic and Hebrew. The word "Allah" in Arabic, which refers to God, is thought to have its roots in the Aramaic word "Alaha".

Did Abraham call God Allah?

No, historical texts suggest Abraham did not use the name "Allah" to refer to God. In the Bible, Abraham is depicted using names like "Jehovah" (Hebrew: יהוה) or "Lord" to refer to the divine. The name "Allah" is primarily used in Islam as the Arabic term for God, and its usage predates the Abrahamic religions.

is allah a later revealed name for God and around what time was it revealed?

Yes, in Islam, "Allah" is the specific name for God and is considered to have been revealed by God to the prophet Muhammad. the name "Allah" may have been used in pre-Islamic Arabic polytheistic contexts, possibly referring to a supreme deity or creator god.

So allah was supreme creator god among the pagans?

Yes, it is generally accepted that "Allah" was a pre-Islamic Arabic term for a supreme creator god, worshipped by pagan Arabs before the rise of Islam. While "Allah" was not the only god in the pagan pantheon, he was considered the highest and most powerful deity.

so islam is the removing of the other gods associated with allah?
Yes, one of the core tenets of Islam, the concept of Tawhid (oneness of God), emphasizes that Allah is the sole and absolute God, free from any partners or associations.

So, again, did pagan Arabs worship Allah?
Yes, evidence suggests that pagan Arabs did indeed worship Allah before the rise of Islam,


Did pagan Hebrews worship YHVH?
Yes, it's plausible that some ancient Israelites who are referred to as "pagan Hebrews" did worship YHVH, alongside other deities, according to some scholars and biblical accounts. That's why they are "pagans"

Did Arabs worship multiple gods?
Before Islam, the predominant religious belief in Arabia was polytheistic, though some groups practiced Judaism or Christianity - monotheistic religions.

Did the Jews at the time of Muhammad believe him be a prophet?

In general, most Jews at the time of Muhammad did not believe him to be a prophet. They held the belief that a prophet would emerge from within their own people, not from among the Arabs. While some individuals, like Abdullah ibn Salam, did accept Muhammad as a prophet, this was not the prevailing view within the Jewish community. Some Jewish scholars even considered Muhammad to be "the madman," a term used in the Bible for those who believe themselves to be prophets.

did the jews at the time of Jesus believe him to be a prophet?

While some Jews at the time of Jesus believed him to be a prophet, this was not universally accepted. The Jewish people, particularly those with leadership roles, generally did not view Jesus as a prophet, nor as the Messiah, according to Jews for Judaism.

did the jews believe that a non Israelite could be a prophet?

Yes, Jews believe that non-Israelites, or Gentiles, can be prophets, although they are not typically considered as high-ranking as Israelite prophets. The Talmud mentions Balaam, a non-Israelite, as a prophet.

did the jews believe that a false prophet is one that brings destruction to their nation?

Yes, Jewish tradition recognizes that a false prophet is one who brings destruction to the nation. False prophets in the Hebrew Bible are described as those who speak in the name of the Lord but whose prophecies do not come to pass, thus leading the people astray. They are seen as deceivers who undermine the true covenant between God and Israel.

does the quran say the bible is corrupted?

The Quran doesn't explicitly state that the Bible (Torah and Injil) is corrupted in the way that the physical text has been altered or rewritten. Instead, it suggests that those who had the scriptures were misled, misinterpreting the messages and not fully understanding the content. The Quran emphasizes that the previous scriptures were revealed with truth, but they may have been misinterpreted or even altered in meaning over time.

is it correct to say that the quran suggests that the interpretation not the text of the bible is incorrect?

The statement that the Quran suggests the interpretation, rather than the text, of the Bible is incorrect is largely true.

is it correct to say that the quran suggests that the text of the copies of bible is altered?

While some interpretations of the Quran suggest that copies of the Bible have been altered, the Quran itself does not directly state this claim.

Claiming that the Christian gospel has no divine revelation yet quoting it as a support to Islamic claims, is that a fallacious logic?

Yes, that would be a fallacious logic, specifically an example of appeal to authority or hypocrisy. The argument is flawed because it uses a text (the Christian gospel) that is supposedly not divinely inspired to support a different claim (Islamic claims), which is a contradictory and inconsistent approach.

No, it is not accurate to say that Islam is the only religion whose holy book has been preserved word-for-word.

Is this record true concerning all religions?

No, it is not accurate to say that Islam is the only religion whose holy book has been preserved word-for-word.

Could this be self exaggeration?

Yes, It's an exaggeration to say definitively that Islam is the only religion whose book has been preserved word-for-word.
However, while many scholars acknowledge the strong efforts made to preserve the Quran, it's not definitively proven that no other religious text has been preserved exactly as originally written.

AntiChristian:
It's none of my business what any prophet's name means. Muhammad (salallahu alayhi wasalam) associates with them because he is the end of prophethood.

And you claim YHVH, some claim YHWH, some introduce vowels Yahweh. Some anglicise it as Jehovah. Which of these exactly did God reveal to Moses as His name?

I don't expect Moses to call all of them or some random alphabets as his God's name!

ilyas means YHVH is my God, so explain to us why and how Quran and Muhammad claimed ilyas is a prophet of Allah, if it is not fallacy

Jimrohn I heard Muhmmad was asked three questions by the Jews who were asked to verify if he was indeed a prophet, one of which was about the ruach. And he said he will ask Gabriel and give an answer within three days but 1st day passed, third day came, even up the many days later he didn't show up.

I don't believe this is true, right creativeorbit, I mean even heard there are two versions of Muhmmad, the first of 12 years and the other version that ran away and faced mecca instead of Jerusalem brought about other confusing parts of the qran

You can see jimrohn using the same corrupted text which the original doesn't exist anyone to answer who the holy Spirit is

JimRohn:
You ask: “How do you know what Jesus preached?”

We know what Jesus (ʿĪsā عليه السلام) preached because Allah told us in the Qur’an, not from the council-edited confusion you call a Bible. Your Bible was tampered with by men — ours is preserved by God.

Jesus preached Tawheed — pure monotheism — and that’s exactly what the Qur’an affirms:

> "Indeed, Allah is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him. That is the straight path."
— Qur’an 3:51

This is word-for-word what Jesus would have said — and it's the exact opposite of the Trinity lie you inherited from Rome, not from Christ.

You ask: “How did Jesus describe the Holy Spirit?”

Let’s turn the question around:

➡️ Where did Jesus ever say the Holy Spirit is God or part of a triune being?
Answer: Nowhere.

In your own Bible, Jesus calls the Spirit a Helper, not God (John 14:16–17). A helper is not equal to the One who sends him.

Jesus never preached your man-made “third person of the Trinity” fiction. That’s a Roman invention, not divine revelation.

You ask: “What is Trinity according to Allah?”

Simple.

> "They have certainly disbelieved who say, 'Allah is the third of three.'"
— Qur’an 5:73

In Islam, the “Trinity” is rejected outright as a man-made shirk (polytheism). Allah is One, not three-in-one — not a partnership, not a divine committee.

You ask: “What is Trinity according to Christians?”

That’s the funniest part. Christians themselves don’t agree on it.

Some say God = Father + Son + Holy Spirit, “co-equal” and “co-eternal.”

Others say the Son is begotten but not created.

Still others say they’re not three gods but “one essence in three persons.”

It's philosophical spaghetti — not scripture. Even your Bible never uses the word "Trinity" — not once. It was invented centuries after Jesus, at the Council of Nicaea in 325 CE, under a pagan emperor.

Jesus never taught this nonsense. You worship a church doctrine, not the God of Jesus.

You ask: “What is the difference between the Tawheed of Allah and the Tawheed of Satan?”

Now this is pure foolishness — and blasphemy.

Let me educate you since you clearly don’t know the difference between Divine Monotheism and demonic lies:

⚔️ Tawheed of Allah:

Pure, indivisible Oneness of God.

No partners, no sons, no images, no idols.

Worship Allah alone, without mediators.

The creed of Abraham, Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad — all upon them be peace.

🔥 “Tawheed” of Satan? That’s your Trinity:

A fake god-man-spirit trio.

A “son” born of a woman, yet called God.

A god that dies, then comes back, yet is eternal.

Worshiping a human being who ate, slept, bled, and cried — and then calling that man “the Creator.”

That’s not monotheism — that’s idolatry.

Even Satan wouldn’t dare ascribe a son to God. That’s your work.

> “And they say, ‘The Most Merciful has taken a son.’ You have said a monstrous thing."
— Qur’an 19:88–89

🔚 Final Word:

You come to Muslims quoting a Book that:

Was written decades after Jesus,

Was edited, censored, and corrupted,

Contains contradictions, pagan inserts, and forged epistles,

Yet you think you’re qualified to question the Qur’an?

Jesus (ʿalayhi as-salām) worshipped One God. You worship a man, call him God, then pretend that’s what Jesus taught?

You’ve inherited a false creed and you’re too arrogant to admit it.

Tawheed is the truth of all Prophets. Trinity is the lie of church councils.

Pick your side.


BibleInterpreta AntiChristian TenQ CreativeOrbit gofh honesttalk21

so everyone who preached and taught one God is a Muslim and a prophet of Allah? And that is the gospel the beginning and end of it, the total complete gospel

JimRohn:
You mock verses of the Qur’an with emojis as if ridicule is a substitute for reason. But let’s be clear: your sarcasm only exposes your ignorance, not any flaw in the Qur’an.

You say: “Qur’an 16:35 says messengers 😂😆😂.”
Yes, the verse speaks of messengers. That’s because Allah sent messengers to different nations throughout history, not just one. Qur’an 16:36 clarifies this:

"And We certainly sent into every nation a messenger, [saying], ‘Worship Allah and avoid Taghut (false gods).’”
That is not a contradiction — it’s a timeline. Many messengers came before Muhammad ﷺ, each to their specific nation. That’s why the Arabic uses "rasūlan" (a messenger) — not the final messenger — because this was describing the pattern before the finality of prophethood.

Now to your desperate question: “Is there a verse that calls Muhammad the last and final prophet?”
Yes. Since you claim to read the Qur’an, read it properly:

“Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but he is the Messenger of Allah and the Seal of the Prophets.” (Qur’an 33:40)

"Khātam an-Nabiyyīn" means the final — not just another in the line. The Arabic term "khātam" means seal, closure, finality, not continuation. Every tafsir from the earliest generations confirms this. So your attempt to act like this isn’t explicit only works on people who don’t know Arabic — or don’t read the Qur’an seriously.

And don’t think you’ve made some groundbreaking point by saying “the Qur’an says he brought a message to the world, so what is his gospel?”
This is a classic Christian projection — trying to force the Qur’anic message into your gospel-shaped box.

Let me break it down:

“And We have not sent you [O Muhammad], except as a mercy to all creation.” (Qur’an 21:107)
“And We have not sent you except comprehensively to mankind…” (Qur’an 34:28)

The Qur’anic “gospel” is not like your Greek "euangelion", full of mythology and crucified gods. The “good news” of Muhammad ﷺ is guidance, light, and a complete way of life — based on the pure Tawḥīd of all prophets, completed and preserved without corruption.

You said: “The good news that there is one God is not even news.”
Only someone drowning in spiritual arrogance would say something that foolish.

When humanity is drowning in idolatry, shirk, man-worship, priesthood, saints, false gods, and systems of oppression — yes, being called back to Tawḥīd is not just news, it is salvation.

The Qur’an didn’t come to amuse philosophers like you. It came to establish:

That Allah is One — no partners, no sons, no intermediaries.

That worship belongs to Him alone — not through saints, not through prophets, not through church hierarchies.

That guidance is not vague emotion but a concrete Shari’ah — prayer, charity, justice, morality, and divine law.

You ask “guidance to what?”
Guidance to the straight path — Sirat al-Mustaqeem — submission to the Creator alone, in every aspect of life.

And before you act like this isn’t enough: the same “one God” message was preached by Noah, Abraham, Moses, and Jesus (peace be upon them all). But it was corrupted by those who came after. Muhammad ﷺ came not with “new entertainment,” but with the final preserved truth — clarified, perfected, universal.

So mock all you want, but you’re mocking what you don’t understand. You’re not asking questions — you’re twisting verses, demanding that Islam conform to your Christian frameworks.

But Islam doesn’t revolve around your definitions. It stands on its own — complete, final, and preserved. If you want truth, humble yourself and seek it. If you want games, you’ll only be exposing your own ignorance.

honesttalk21 BibleInterpreta AntiChristian TenQ CreativeOrbit gofh

what are you even saying, you don't even have the humility to admit your mistakes. That someone who doesn't even know the Quran corrected you.

At first you said it means Muhammad now you have changed it to agree with what I wrote.

Now you know that Arabic uses "rasūlan" (a messenger) — not the final messenger, which you previously claimed.

Look if you can't admit simple things like that, you won't admit any major wrong in what you have been saying all this while.

All you can do is disrespect the questions, avoid some of them and undermine the rest.

You are talking about the messengers of Allah, like ilyas and Zakariya right? Who called YHVH there God and not Allah?

Is there any idolatry and false image bigger than the kabba and black stone on earth?

Meanwhile a number of other religious claims one God yet you claim it is news. Do you live in a desert?

So based on what you have written Islam is not a way to God but it's purpose is to break down other religions which portray God differently, right? That is it's focus

JimRohn:
Now let me clarify the Islamic view that you’re trying to confuse:
In Islam, Jesus never failed. He was sent to the Children of Israel to confirm the Torah and deliver the Gospel. He fulfilled his mission of calling to Tawheed (monotheism), but his people betrayed him, not God or his mission. Allah raised him before they could harm him, proving that no one has power over God’s chosen prophet. He will return not because he failed, but to complete a divine task that was never part of his original mission: to break the cross, kill the false messiah, and establish justice under Islam.

This is not a correction of a failed mission. It is a victory over the lies made about him, including the claim of divinity and crucifixion — lies your religion is built upon.

So don’t throw around confused questions as if they expose Islam. All they expose is your desperation to defend a theology full of holes.

Now I’ve answered you with clarity. Can you do the same — without hiding behind circular logic and emotional theology?

honesttalk21 BibleInterpreta AntiChristian TenQ CreativeOrbit gofh

"to complete a divine task that was never part of his original mission"

So whose task is he completing? Who started the divine task and what is the divine task?

By the way care to tell us what Jesus means

JimRohn:
Now let’s dismantle your claim step by step.

You said the first visit of Jesus was sufficient. If that’s the case, then answer plainly: Why is he coming back? You said “to fulfill God’s word” and “save those who obeyed God.” That proves his mission is incomplete, and by your own words, not mine. That’s not sufficiency — that’s unfinished business.

You can’t have it both ways. Either he completed his mission and doesn’t need to return — or he didn’t complete it and must return. Your contradiction exposes the weakness of your doctrine.


honesttalk21 BibleInterpreta AntiChristian TenQ CreativeOrbit gofh

Sufficient means enough, did Jesus do what God asked him when he first came. Yes. Expect you are saying that the mission God gave him when he came first was insufficient.

Your problem is that you assume that Jesus came to save those who obeyed God whereas he came to preach the gospel which repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, to call sinners to repentance. This is what you called flawed theology.

😂 It is the doctrine in have in your mind that you are exposing, I told you before it is respectful to actually ask what a person's theology is before assuming it before you find yourself with a foot in the mut

JimRohn:
Don’t twist my words to cover the contradictions in your theology. I never said Jesus (peace be upon him) failed in his mission according to Islam — you are the one who inserted your flawed Christian assumptions into the discussion.


honesttalk21 BibleInterpreta AntiChristian TenQ CreativeOrbit gofh

what was the flawed "Christian assumptions" you wrote "not to "complete a failed mission," yes or no?

honesttalk21 BibleInterpreta AntiChristian TenQ CreativeOrbit narialtq jimrohn

Now Muslims say the name of their God is Allah even though it means the God like referring to a specific God, and they claim he is the same God of Moses who revealed Himself as YHVH.

Now many Muslims say Allah is not YHVH so my question is why do prophets of Allah that Muhammad associates with himself have names like Zakariya which is Zechariah in hebrew.

Now what does Zechariah mean?

What does ilyas mean? One of the prophets in Islam.

Jewish Rabbis have denied that Allah was ever the same God worshipped by Abraham.

There's an Indian religion and some other religions also claim that there is one God.

honesttalk21 BibleInterpreta AntiChristian TenQ CreativeOrbit

Jimrohn, so is the purpose of the Quran is to state that the Torah and gospel no longer exists 😏 or that's your own personal preference. Or you are saying they exist in a different form meaning it's a copy of the original and is still worth reading.


By the way what was the original revelation that Jesus confirmed?

Tell me what is the original account and revelation of your so called, "contradictions, incest, anthropomorphism, and tribal bias." And show us the inclusion of such in the Torah objectively without bias.

JimRohn:
Your entire argument collapses under the weight of its own contradictions and ignorance. So let me dismantle your claims piece by piece.

> "According to you the Torah which the Quran mentions several times and which Jesus confirmed is corrupted..."

Yes, and not according to me, but according to the Quran itself. Allah says:

> "So woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, then say, 'This is from Allah,' to trade it for a small price. Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn."
[Surah Al-Baqarah 2:79]

This verse directly condemns human tampering of divine scripture. So your attempt to weaponize Quranic references to the Torah against the Quran only exposes your inability to grasp what you're quoting.

Yes, the Torah was originally a divine revelation. But no, the current version held by Jews and Christians is not that same original revelation. That’s why the Quran affirms the Torah in its original form, but also criticizes those who altered it.

you call stating what the Quran wrote as weap. onizing the text 😱 that's another one of your accusations 😁 lol how exactly is that or to you that Quran supporting the Torah is weapo.
nizing it agaist the Quran 🤣. That's an interesting information.

So you are saying that supporting the Torah means it fights against it's self?

Now should the book be written with their own legs? It speaks woe to those who write the book with their hands or because they write it for money?

Do you even understand what you even quote, please is there another Muslim with way better understanding because this cannot be the true representation of Islam 🤣 😂 🤣 😂

It criticizes those who altered what? But so, What was written? If the Qran does that, does it also provide evidence by stating what was altered?

Lol it doesn't even have the name of God, so was that altered as well or is lah the name?

So the Qran is not the original Torah right but the original Torah was altered, but then the issue is that majority of what is in the Torah is not in it. Now you will claim because the Torah was written by scribes that's why it was altered but the one said with the mouths of men was not altered nor changed 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 😂 🤣 😂 🤣 😂 🤣 😂 🤣 😂 🤣 😂 🤣 😂

Which is easier for men, to lie with the mouth or write down a lie which can be corrected after being verified and cross-checked. But you want us to believe that men would say exactly what was told to them without making any mistakes less not even mention lie or alter it?

> "Who edited the Quran you are quoting? Was it angels? 😂"

No editing needed. Unlike your corrupted scriptures, the Quran was orally revealed, memorized by thousands, and written down meticulously during the lifetime of the Prophet ﷺ — and then compiled by the Companions under the Caliph Abu Bakr and finalized under Uthman (رضي الله عنهم). So yes, angels brought it, and Allah promised to preserve it Himself:

> "Indeed, We sent down the Dhikr (the Quran), and indeed, We will be its Guardian."
[Surah Al-Hijr 15:9]

So laugh all you want — but you're laughing at Allah’s guarantee, not mine. That’s a war you won’t win.

so did angels not bring the Torah scriptures, because I don't understand did God not promise to preserve his word but only the Quran. Or did Allah say he didn't promise or didn't preserve his word, and the Torah?

Do you have proof that God did not preserve the Torah?

It's like you are accusing Him for failing to preserve the Torah when you believe he completely preserved the Quran through men.

> "Even the Quran 5:3 you cut out off, doesn't support your point that the Quran is self sufficient 🤣🤣"

Clearly you didn’t even read 5:3 properly:

> "This day I have perfected for you your religion, completed My favor upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion."
[Surah Al-Ma'idah 5:3]

Perfected. Completed. Chosen.
What part of that don’t you understand? When a system is perfected, you don’t need to go backward to corrupted texts for confirmation or guidance. The Quran supersedes all prior scriptures. That’s not my claim — that’s explicit revelation.

so to you, "I have perfected your religion" means "this Quran is self sufficient" 😏 by the way so what was it perfecting now? The Torah and the gospel?

> "Now you're responding that Muhammad had no knowledge of the previous [books]..."

Exactly. And that’s part of the miracle. The Prophet Muhammad ﷺ was unlettered (ummi) — he couldn’t read or write, and he didn’t have access to Jewish or Christian scripture. Yet he brought a book that corrects their errors, exposes their corruptions, and establishes eternal guidance. That’s not “ignorance,” that’s divine revelation.

so that means it is the religion of Muhammad that was being perfected was not the religion of Moses and the Israelites.

honesttalk21:
You start on a wrong note. Allah and Illah aren't related so your statement is all rubbish.

so you are saying Allah is not illah, correct?

JimRohn:
10. Finality of Prophethood and New Nations

You cited Qur’an 16:36: "We sent a messenger to every nation..." Yes, and Muhammad ﷺ was sent to all mankind—hence, the need for no more messengers. Qur’an 34:28:

> “We have not sent you except to all of mankind, as a bringer of glad tidings and a warner.”

Islam is not limited to Arabs or the Middle East. It is global, universal, final.

11. “What is the Gospel Muhammad taught?”

Excellent question. The Arabic word Injeel (Gospel) refers to the original revelation given to Jesus—not the later texts compiled by anonymous authors. The “good news” Muhammad ﷺ brought is the final call to monotheism and mercy. It is this:

> “Say, Indeed, my Lord has guided me to a straight path—a correct religion, the way of Abraham, inclining toward truth. And he was not of the polytheists.” (Qur’an 6:161)

And that:

> “And We have not sent you [O Muhammad], except as a mercy to the worlds.” (Qur’an 21:107)

That is the good news: that guidance has come. Final, preserved, and universal.

Final Thought:

You have misrepresented Islam, misunderstood its message, and mishandled its scriptures. If you wish to debate, bring arguments—not arrogant diatribes. We don’t need to appeal to emotional manipulation or vague allegories. Islam is clear. Its message is clear. And our response to hostility is, as always, truth spoken with strength and clarity.

> “Invite to the way of your Lord with wisdom and good instruction, and argue with them in a way that is best…” (Qur’an 16:125)

But if your way is aggression and contempt, then don’t be surprised when we respond not with silence, but with knowledge, clarity, and strength.

CreativeOrbit AntiChristian TenQ gohf

Quran 16:35 says messengerS 😂😆😂 you are supposed to be honest and know the Quran more than me right?

But what is the mission of messengers but to preach the Clear Message?

And We certainly sent into every nation a messenger, [saying],.... A messenger not the messenger 😏

This is what I asked you, "does it mean messengers are sent from every nation, how does this line up with the final messenger when well there are new nations and no more messengers?"

But you change the meaning of the text by patching in Quran 34:28 which calls Muhammad the bringer of the gospel to the world, which agrees with a prophecy that Quran states Jesus made. The issue now is what then is the gospel of Muhammad I have asked the question repeatedly.

None of this verses claim not call Muhammed the last and final prophet.

Is there a verse that says Muhammad is the last and final prophet of Allah and is the greatest as you claim?


I will repeat this question again, what is the good news of Muhammad.

The good news that there is one God is not even news.

The good news is that guidance has come, guidance to what? What is the guidance that there is only one God, how is that guidance that's information.

Or you are specifically telling you that Muhammad was sent as the seal of prophets that you claim means final last and greatest prophet, was to tell the world that there is only one God, and that's the gospel.

JimRohn:
9. Do Muslims Obey Jesus?

Yes—we obey Jesus as a prophet of God, not as divine. His original message (Tawheed – worship God alone) is the same message as all prophets, including Muhammad ﷺ. The Qur’an states:

> “Say, [O Muhammad], ‘We believe in Allah and what was revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob… and what was given to Moses and Jesus...’” (Qur’an 2:136)

But we don’t obey later theological innovations falsely attributed to him by later councils and scribes. That is not "disobedience to Jesus," but obedience to the truth of Jesus.

you say you obey Jesus, the command of Jesus is this love God and love your neighbor as yourself, love your enemies bless and not curse. And of these or which other ones do you call "later theological innovations falsely attributeed to Jesus"?

By the way you avoid many questions, one of which was, what is worship? What does it mean to worship God?

This was how I put the question
why not tell us how God revealed that purpose to the first man, through Jesus and through Muhammad and tell us what does worship God mean, what does it mean to worship God?


CreativeOrbit AntiChristian TenQ gohf

JimRohn:
8. Did Jesus Complete His Mission?

You said: “Was his mission interrupted?” Then answer this: If he was crucified (as you believe) and will return again (as Christians also believe), was the first visit sufficient or not? Islam holds he will return—not to "complete a failed mission," but to fulfill divine decree. That’s a very different paradigm. If your Christ succeeded, why is he coming back? Be consistent.



CreativeOrbit AntiChristian

You asked was the first visit of Jesus sufficient, according to christains? The answer is yes.
Why is he coming back to fulfill God's word and save those who obeyed God.

I answered your questions but these were questions I asked you

"Now based on your own view of his mission being interrupted clear to clarify how you came about that understanding? Is it because he left and is coming back?
So can we say that he succeeded his mission before he left, and you could also tell us what his mission from God was?"

Even though you first claimed he did not fail, but now you call it a failed mission. 😏

JimRohn:
4. Original Sin & Human Nature in Islam — Distorted Understanding

Islam categorically rejects the doctrine of inherited sin. Every soul is born pure (fitrah) and accountable only for their own actions:

> "No bearer of burdens shall bear the burden of another." (Qur’an 6:164)

We sin not because we are born evil, but because we are given free will and a lower self (nafs) to struggle against. Unlike Christian doctrine, we don’t see sin as a genetic curse but as a test.

As for the first sin—it was Iblis, not Adam. He disobeyed Allah by refusing to bow. Read Qur’an 2:34. Your question is answered by the very book you’re trying to challenge.


CreativeOrbit AntiChristian

well who told you Christian doctrine teaches us that sin is a genetic curse, is that what your Muslims tell you that pastors teach?

And I am not asking you about Christianity am I or are you saying you can't teach an Islamic doctrine without making Christian references 😁 😁 😁

You see how you are responding to a question, what was the first sin

And that
I understand what you have written that Islam rejects the idea that all mankind is born sinful, but can you tell us why sins and falls into temptations if according to you man lacks a sinful nature?

So you are saying that every human is born with nafs, as part of their nature.


If sin is the wrong someone does, it's not logical to assume that a person can an inherit actions. But we if are speaking about the consequences of those actions of those sins, then yes, it was a debate that people could inherit the consequences of their parents mistakes. Na in religion, like Islam you teach the nafs, and you are given the opportunity to tells us more about it instead of making references to another religion.


😂
And behold, We said to the angels: “Bow down to Adam” and they bowed down. Not so Iblis: he refused and was haughty: He was of those who reject Faith.

This is the verse doesn't state that iblis is the first nor the origin of sin, does it? Did sin come and begin with iblis?

JimRohn:
3. “You can’t claim completeness without knowing the former books” — Strawman

You confuse the completeness of revelation with the memorization of past texts. The Qur’an affirms that the final revelation is self-contained and self-sufficient:

> "This day I have perfected for you your religion..." (Qur’an 5:3)

The Prophet ﷺ did not need to study corrupted scriptures to bring the truth. Revelation comes from the Source, not from books edited by human hands.


CreativeOrbit AntiChristian

so according to you the Torah which the Quran mentions several times and which Jesus confirmed is corrupted... Because it was edited by human hands. Who edited the Quran you are quoting was it angels? 😂

Your answer, explanation and proof is that the Quran it's says so 😆😂😆😂😆😂

Even the Quran 5:3 you cut out off, doesn't support your point that the Quran is self sufficient 🤣🤣

Now you are responding that Muhammad had no knowledge of the previous to even make what he wrote a complete version. So according to you one can claim to be ignorant and still make a complete text.

Does the Quran not refer to the Torah and encourages Muslims to check it for guidance, wisdom, and confirmation, particularly regarding the teachings of prophets and the law. The Quran views the Torah as a previous revelation from God to Moses, containing divine words and teachings.

Several Quran verses direct Muslims to the Torah. One such verse is Surah Al-Ma'idah, verse 44 (5:44), which emphasizes that the Torah is a law from God that should be followed. This verse also mentions that those who do not judge by the law sent down by God are disbelievers, unjust, and transgressors. Another relevant verse is Surah 3:3 (Family of `Imran), which states that God sent down the Torah as a guide to mankind. Additionally, Surah Al-Ma'idah, verse 46 (5:46), discusses Jesus confirming the Torah and the Gospel.

JimRohn:
Your barrage of rhetorical accusations and theological missteps betrays more heat than light. While you posture as if delivering a cross-examination, your actual argumentation reveals a profound misunderstanding of Islam, its epistemology, and its principles. So let me respond point by point—with clarity, directness, and without the diplomatic softening you clearly neither respect nor understand.

1. “You failed the question”—False Premise

You claim the question was whether we honor one prophet more than another. Islam is not Christianity, and unlike your framework where Christ’s elevation necessitates a demotion of others, Islam teaches prophetic hierarchy within the bounds of respect, not at the expense of any prophet's honor. Allah says:

> "These are the messengers; We have made some exceed others. Among them are those to whom Allah spoke, and He raised some of them in rank." (Qur’an 2:253)

Yes, Muhammad ﷺ is the final and greatest Prophet, but that does not entail a dishonor to Jesus, peace be upon him. Your assumption that hierarchy equals dishonor is your theological baggage, not ours. And if you are incapable of distinguishing between reverence and worship, that is your own confusion—not ours to bear.

2. “You can’t answer without referencing Christianity” — Misguided Critique

You brought up theological comparisons, so don’t recoil when we answer on those terms. Islam is the final revelation, and by definition, it clarifies and corrects what came before. That necessitates engaging with prior scriptures. Islam doesn't emerge in a vacuum—it refines and seals the Abrahamic message. Qur'an 5:48 makes this clear:

> "To you We revealed the Scripture in truth, confirming the Scripture that came before it and as a criterion over it...
If you bring Christianity into the room, don't complain when it's critically addressed.






CreativeOrbit AntiChristian

lol 😂 lmao 🤣 "betrays more heat than light" so we are not betraying heat, or is it protray you wanted to use. 😁 You think you are writing poetry right?
If one is feeling hot and can't see the light, it's because blindness has landed that person inside fire 😆

You failed the question the evidence was stated there, calling it a false premise shows you can't even own up to an obvious failure. But it's okay, your point is,

"Islam teaches prophetic hierarchy" So yes you honor Muhammad more than Jesus because you believe "he is the final and greatest prophet.

Yet you are accusing me of, in your words, "your assumption that hierarchy equals dishonor is your theological baggage, not ours."

Like 😂😂😂 guy can you even keep track of your own words and point. It's like you are calling yourself who brought up the hierarchy, dishonorable and I don't disagree with you that you are that though.

Like it's tiring reading all your words, it's like sorting through the bin, to find a pin.. your response to why you can't answer without referencing Christianity is, "You brought up theological comparisons, so don’t recoil when we answer on those terms. Islam is the final revelation"

😂 Please jimrohn bring out where I, golf brought up theological comparison" looking I am not recoiling I am here waiting for you to show us honestly and truthful your claim that I did so 😁😀

This is what I wrote Jim, "No one is asking you about Christianity, but you can't answer an Islamic question without referencing another religion."

And this is what you wrote "“You can’t answer without referencing Christianity” — Misguided Critique"

Who is the misguided one here with evidence Jim Jim. We expect you to at least stay true to the conversation and what you read but even that seems hard so how are we to trust your evaluation?

You want to reveal scriptures in truth when you don't even reveal my posts in truth, that's not fair now. 😀


Lol okay show us the Christianity I brought into the room and how you criticized it and how I complained about it. Or it all you do false accusations like your book🥺