₦airaland Forum

[quote author=i.chuka]Romans8:19For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. 20For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
Paul told the brethrem in Roman that the
Whole creation itself are still under bondage of corruption,even them(Paul and co.)awaits their full redemption.
And some Christains are still saying we don't need deliverance.[/quote]My God, how did I missed this post OMG! Brother i.chuka, what is this? You mean at your level of bible study, you don't understand that scripture you quoted? I can't believe that. Well, I do not say that to discredit you but I said that because I expected more from you, reading from most of your post.

First, lemme advice you. If KJV is too difficult for you in 'some' cases, please, kindly or always read along KJV other translations to better under what a particular KJV verse is saying. I realize many problem in today's interpretation of scripture are from KJV English. That being said, let's go to the context and I will quote KJV and parallel with another translations so we can understand what KJV was saying in those verses.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

New Living Translation (©2007)
For all creation is waiting eagerly for that future day when God will reveal who his children really are. Against its will, all creation was subjected to God's curse. But with eager hope, the creation looks forward to the day when it will join God's children in glorious freedom from death and decay. For we know that all creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. And we believers also groan, even though we have the Holy Spirit within us as a foretaste of future glory, for we long for our bodies to be released from sin and suffering. We, too, wait with eager hope for the day when God will give us our full rights as his adopted children, including the new bodies he has promised us.

Expanded Bible (EXB)
19 ·Everything God made [ The creation] is waiting with ·excitement [eager expectation] for ·God to show his children’s glory completely [the revelation of the children/sons of God]. 20 ·Everything God made [ For the creation] was ·changed to become useless [subjected to futility/meaninglessness; Gen. 3; Eccl. 1:2], not by its own wish but because God ·wanted [ subjected] it ·and because all along there was this hope [yet with the hope…]: 21 that ·everything God made [the creation itself] would be set free from ·ruin [inevitable decay; L the slavery of decay] to have the ·freedom and glory [or glorious freedom] that belong to God’s children. 22 We know that ·everything God made [all creation] has been ·waiting until now in pain, like a woman ready to give birth [ groaning with labor pains until now]. 23 Not only the world, but we also ·have been waiting with pain inside us [ groan within ourselves]. We have the Spirit as the ·first part of God’s promise [ firstfruits;  as the first crops confirmed the future harvest, so the Spirit’s presence confirms believers’ final salvation]. So we are [eagerly] waiting for ·God to finish making us his own children [ our adoption], which means ·our bodies will be made free [ the redemption of our bodies].

Romans 8:19-23

What then is the "the bondage of corruption that we SHALL be (future tense) DELIVERED FROM?" in this context. See, I don't explain scriptures with my own words but I explain\interpret scriptures with scriptures. The bondage of corruption is OUR CORRUPTIBLE or CORRUPTED BODY (because it says, everything God made was changed to become useless) in the fact that we, whether Christians or not are still living in this earthly bodies and flesh. How do we know this, the immediate context of verse 23 in the last phrase says, "the redemption of our body". This is the same revelation in 1 Corinthians 15:53-54 Please read it in ALL available translations.

Unfortunately, my pastor friend's church is in Calabar - Living Waters. They don't teach tithe for Christians, no seed sowing because they understand that the seed is the word of God. They only practice Grace based giving. I know many churches here in the United States that don't pressure you into giving but I don't know of much of them in Africa except for the aforementioned.

Also, the Grace based giving is the ONLY thing that is scriptural - whereby you give what you have with a cheerful heart and that's where the blessing is. It's a natural thing to give and receive apart from the bible saying it but we are to give whatever we have, not what we are forced or coerced to give.

Godseagle: . And how do you interprete matthew 5 vs 17 when Jesus said " i have not come to abolish the Law and the Prophets, but I have come to fulfill them.?

First, correct yourself. It is NOT 'abolish', it is 'destroy'

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. - Mat 5:17 (KJV)

Many people hang on this verse taking the words of Jesus out of context and applying it that the law of Moses continues or we, Christians are still living under the dispensation of Moses. The whole context of Matthew contradict such interpretations.

The word 'destroy' is the Greek word katalyō or Kataluo that means to dissolve, disunite what has been joined together. Hence, what that context means is this,

Think not that I am come to DISSOLVE\DISUNITE the law, or the prophets: I am not come to DISSOLVE\DISUNITE, but to FULFILL. The word 'fulfill' is the Greek word plēroō and it means,

1) to make full, to fill up, i.e. to fill to the full
a) to cause to abound, to furnish or supply liberally
1) I abound, I am liberally supplied
2) to render full, i.e. to complete
a) to fill to the top: so that nothing shall be wanting to full measure, fill to the brim
b) to consummate: a number
1) to make complete in every particular, to render perfect
2) to carry through to the end, to accomplish, carry out, (some undertaking)
c) to carry into effect, bring to realisation, realise
1) of matters of duty: to perform, execute
2) of sayings, promises, prophecies, to bring to pass, ratify, accomplish
3) to fulfill, i.e. to cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be, and God's promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfillment

Hence, we understand that without Christ, the law of Moses is NOT complete or perfect for the purpose of the law was to bring the Jews to Christ. Now, that Christ has come, the law is fulfilled, perfected and completed. Therefore, it is consistent with other scriptures such as,

New International Version (©1984)
Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.
New Living Translation (©2007)
For Christ has already accomplished the purpose for which the law was given. As a result, all who believe in him are made right with God.
English Standard Version (©2001)
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. - Romans 10:4

@ Miss Ope, I got your email but my reply isn't delivering.

christemmbassey: its like marriage, the wedding fulfills, there are things the couples can not do again because the wedding frees them from such obligations. Another way to look at it is this. A woman collect a loan of N20'000 and agreed to pay a monthly intrest of N2,000 until the loan is paid back, after lets say 8months her husband came back from UK and paid up the loan and all outstanding intrests if any, now the man by this action , did not cancel or abolish the agreement between his wife and the bank but fulfills all the terms of the loan agreement(covenant) and effectively ends the transactions between the bank and his wife. Now, i want to ask u, will the woman continue to pay the 2k monthly intrest? Pls i waxt u to answer.

Oh man of God, I LOVE YOU SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO MUCH WITH THE LOVE OF CHRIST. You've explained it in a simple way interacting with everyday event but permit me to shoot more arrows of the mighty and release the sword of the Spirit to further buttress. God bless you man of God.

frosbel: Our generosity is an outgrowth of our thankfulness to God for what he has done on the cross. [size=15pt]When pastors use the law to motivate giving they are denying the all sufficient power of God’s Grace[/size] (2 Cor 5:14-15, 9:8 ). - Source

^^^

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frosbel: Our generosity is an outgrowth of our thankfulness to God for what he has done on the cross. [size=15pt]When pastors use the law to motivate giving they are denying the all sufficient power of God’s Grace[/size] (2 Cor 5:14-15, 9:8 ). - Source

^^^ 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 LIKES for YOU

nlMediator: OK. My understanding is that it is a gift of the Spirit of God that enables a christian to see spirits in operation. It can help you distinguish between the Spirit of God and false spirits. It includes ability to see the particular demons in operation in a person's life and over a given situation; at which point, they can readily be cast out.

BTW, regarding your earlier point about not seeing christians in the early church going for deliverance, I believe it is because the church had a consistent practice of casting demons out of people before salvation. Thus, the question of deliverance became moot.

On the highlight in RED, who is this person? A Christian or just a church goer? If your definition is that, ...it enables a CHRISTIAN to see...Now, can one Christians be POSSESSED and another seeing devils in the other?

On the highlight in BLACK - Your second paragraph immediately answers the first highlight. If someone is delivered BEFORE salvation, tell me what deliverance such person constantly go for again. That's the whole point I've been making. It is those that are not saved yet and washed in the blood of Christ that needs deliverance. They don't keep going for deliverance AFTER the are saved and become Christians. Hence, you don't read such among the early church fathers.

OLAADEGBU: It is true that Abraham paid a tithe of the spoils of war to Melchizedek but the fact is that ". . . he gave him tithes of all" -- Gen.14:18-20.

Some other reputable Bible scholars define tithes as a charge on farm produce or labour that is used to maintain and support religious activities.

If it was recorded once does that make it any less important? The person who steals regularly and the person who steals once are both not thieves?

What you should realise is that this specific conduct of Abraham laid a solid foundation for the practice that God was to ordain for that time and all times.

Let's even leave the argument of whether he tithe once or more. What is the content of "ALL" that Abraham tithed from? Did you not read Lot was part of the people he recovered from the war? Wasn't Lot still walking after Genesis 14? Is Lot part of the ALL? Does the "ALL" involved Abraham's person wealth? Haven't you read from the scriptures in Hebrews 7:4 what the "ALL" was LIMITED TO?

New International Version (©1984)
Just think how great he was: Even the patriarch Abraham gave him a tenth of the plunder!
New Living Translation (©2007)
Consider then how great this Melchizedek was. Even Abraham, the great patriarch of Israel, recognized this by giving him a tenth of what he had taken in battle.
English Standard Version (©2001)
See how great this man was to whom Abraham the patriarch gave a tenth of the spoils!

The tithe taught in church is different from Abraham's tithe. What Abraham gave as tithe COULD NOT BE ACCEPTABLE UNDER THE GOD'S DEFINITION OF TITHE ACCORDING TO THE LAW. You people are teaching\practicing tithe ACCORDING TO THE LAW BUT YOU HIDE UNDER ABRAHAM'S ROAD SIDE TITHE THAT COULD NOT HAVE BEEN ACCEPTABLE UNDER LAW BECAUSE IT WAS PAGAN PROPERTIES THAT WAS TITHED NOT WHAT WAS PRODUCED IN ISRAEL.

Image123: I'm hoping you don't fulfill my predictions, you know you're my friend.

Prophet Apostle Image123, what's the problem and what's the prediction? You know you can't but LOVE me naw

Image123: and where is Gosh? Oh it's the usual ignore the posts and points,make them go away, then re-raise the same issues on a new thread. These folks perfectly hold the ever learning and never able to come to knowledge trophy.

E-hugs....I love you to the end bro. You know say I no dey run away except I decided to keep quiet. What is the problem? Abi you want make I start dey sing Songs of Solomon for you ni? I no say you no wan leaf me alone - you don glue to me with the love of Christ; you no get choice naw, than to lof me....abi? lo ba tan

MacDaddy01: -Oxygen and bacteria can be seen. Microscopes and all
-Abstracts do not exist in the real world like numbers etc

^^^ I think you will need to tell us first what you think the gift of discerning of spirits is discerning IN\AMONG BELIEVERS? To discern if a Christians is possessed or what?

^^^ Yes bro. I hope to visit the churches I grew up as a young Christian and when I do, trust me - THEY WILL NEVER REMAIN THE SAME AGAIN....because I will impart unto them Spiritual gift, by the Grace of God given unto me. You know what I'm talking about na

JIL: I think the way this has been adopted in some churches is that satellite churches represent the levites while the HQ represent the priest where all affiliated churches are expected to in turn pay their tithes to.

One cannot but love you bro. You've carefully observed the 'church' operations over years. Believe me, this tithe false teaching is going down. One of us is chasing a thousand, imagine when we become 100 that have the knowledge of truth as to this tithe scam? We will impart others and others will impart others etc etc. At the end, the tithe captives are set free.

To further unveil these tithe frauds especially as mentioned by you which I have observed for many years of my Christian life. These churches are no longer interested in the souls of sinners. Look at every streets in Nigeria and see churches like RCCG and others like 3-5 in one street. Someone mentioned here that how much tithe you can remit to the HQ determines how a pastor is promoted in RCCG. I'm a living witness - I attended RCCG in my OND at Offa. The local parish suffers financially but ALL tithes MUST be remitted to the HQ via the regional HQ and via the State HQ. Where did RCCG see this practice from scriptures

Those of you who cannot challenge your church unscriptural practices are fueling greed in the name of tradition. Men have crafted a system that will keep their income flowing without ending. THERE IS NO WHERE IN SCRIPTURES WHERE APOSTLES ESTABLISHED CHURCHES AND INSTRUCTED THEM TO REMIT TITHES TO APOSTLE PAUL HEADQUARTERS - THIS IS A FALSE PRACTICE CONTRARY TO THE APOSTOLIC PRACTICES AND WE ARE OUT TO FIGHT IT TO STAND STILL OR STOP IN JESUS NAME.

Spiritual wickedness (call it spiritual spouse or demons or whatever force\name is called) EXIST BUT NOT ON THOSE WHO ARE IN CHRIST JESUS. So, let's get it straight please.

All of you people applying MARKETING STRATEGIES to the family of God, God is watching o

Candour: That's why you hear some prayer points in church today and you have to check again if you're before a Sango priest or still in a church.

I remember when i was deep in this deliverance thing and had to take a tree branch and a big broom to a pastor to pray on to ward of demonic influences from my compound.i think back to that episode and wonder how could i have been so gullible with all my supposed excellent education?

@ the bold.

Do you know why I fight that deliverance stuffs for 'christians'? It's based on your second paragraph - I've also been once deceived doing deliverance for 'christians' and attaching a little thing that happens to demon and satan but it was because of tradition passed down to me from our church leaders then. My brother, when I sat myself down to study the word, one verse at a time. It's like a veil is taken away from my eyes. I began to see myself how God sees me and this blessedness and riches are only found IN CHRIST AND REVEALED IN THE EPISTLES. I love the word bro.

@ Candour, thou man of God, God bless you. Keep doing the work of an evangelist.

@ kramer and other who have come to the knowledge of truth via this thread, please, strengthen others and study with them. Let the tithe captives loose and teach them to practice Grace based giving as instructed to Christians. Do good to all men especially to them that are of the household of faith. I've been blessed beyond measure, I DO NOT TITHE but practice giving - to worship places, to people in dare need, etc etc. This is what the New Testament teaches Christians and we must do it cheerfully and joyfully - Therein lies THE BLESSINGS of GOD.

How in the world did I missed this thread in 2011 What in the world happened to me Okay, I remember what happened - I went fishing . Scripture says, the law (of Moses) was ONLY a SHADOW of good things to come and NOT the very reality of the good things. In the law of Moses, the firstfruit is a picture\(fore)shadow of Christ's resurrection and believers' resurrection to life after Christ. Those who preach or teach firstfruit for Christians are peddling the word of God for MONETARY gain because firstfruit is a type and shadow of resurrection and Christ already fulfilled it. Take a look,

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Expanded Bible (EXB)
But ·everyone [each] will be raised to life in the right order. Christ was ·first to be raised [ the firstfruits]. When Christ comes again, those who belong to him will be raised to life,

1 Corinthians 15:23

@moredendisc, Whatz up son (of God)! No mind me joor. You know say sometimes, teacher head dey too full so he no go know wetin to pour out anymore Whatever I miss, kindly contribute my brother and we shall have fellowship with one another.

Ubenedictus: while i love your exposition, i'll asked from what passage did u deduce that u are justified once and for all.
Correct me if i misunderstood your position.

Thank God you quoted me. I never said it is once and for all. I said, it is a one time event that happened when a man is saved in obedience to the gospel of Christ. However, it is dangerous also to teach the one and for all stuff or abusing the Grace of God that comes from the privilege of justification. There's also justification as past and present guilt provided we DO NOT CONTINUE IN SUCH OR SAME SIN thinking the Grace is available.

Segeggs: well,i dont like homosexuality too but remember "touch not my anointed" .isnt that what you people say when others criticize adeboye,oyedepo and the likes?why should he be exempted? "oh ye hypocrytes"

^^^ There's a message the Spirit of God is sending to us in this end time. I'm hoping to deliver it some days to come.

^^^Ouality of post, not quantity. Whenever you speak, you speak like one who has been married to the word of God

@wordthots, whatz up son (of God)! I can see you are doing very very well, being grounded in scriptures. The truth is, many Christians are very far from the RICHES and BLESSEDNESS of believers in the New Testament still married to the Old; hence, they must come up with stuffs like deliverance for Christians. I don't see any believer in the early church going for deliverance session. Many Pastors are fueling the error also knowing that's what sells and what the people want. Take a look at this,

2 Corinthians 3:7-11
Expanded Bible (EXB)

7 The ·law [or old system;  ministry] that brought death was ·written in words [ engraved with letters] on stone. It came with ·God’s glory [ glory], which made Moses’ face so ·bright [glorious] that the ·Israelites [ children of Israel] could not ·continue to look [gaze] at it. But that glory ·later disappeared [was fading; or was made ineffective (by the veil on his face)]. 8 So ·surely [ will not…?] the ·new way that brings [ ministry of] the Spirit has even more glory. 9 [ For] If the ·law that judged people guilty of sin [ ministry of condemnation] had glory, surely the ·new way that makes people right with God [ ministry of righteousness] has much greater glory. 10 For that which had glory [ the law] ·really loses its glory [ has no glory] when it is compared to the much greater glory [ the new way through the Spirit]. 11 [ For] If that which ·disappeared [faded; was made ineffective;  the law; v. 7] came with glory, then that which ·continues forever [remains; abides; the new way through the Spirit] has much greater glory.

^^^ Hey, Ubenedictus, Whatz up son (of God); I can see you're doing well in recent time. Keep it up. You've spoken the truth.

Bidam: The tithes and offerings in the O.T. were used for the Temple and the Temple ministry (i.e., the priests, etc.) (Mal. 3:10). 1 Co. 9:13-14 applies this principle to the N.T. church. "Do you not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar? EVEN SO hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel." Verse 13 relates to the O.T. practice. Verse 14 carries this practice over to N.T. churches. Your tithes and offerings are for the support, upkeep, and ministry of your Church. Tithes should never be designated--they are to be left free for use as the church body decides.
:

Okay, I've come to do thy will O Lord. Lemme me begin to puncture 'some' of your lies and scripture twisting. You've been parading these 1 Corinthians 9:13-14 and apply 'tithe' to the context. See, I know who you are, using another I.D but I will keep it cool with you without mentioning your real person, okay. That's not that important, I just want you to know that I know you for real. Now, back to 1 Corinthians 9:13-14,

13Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar? 14Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.

Goshen360: The lies of those who use 1 Corinthians 9:13-14 to 'insert' tithe into the words of Apostle Paul. If they are saying Apostle Paul meant 'tithe' in that context, without mentioning the word tithe; will that mean if I go preaching the gospel, doing evangelism, I should collect tithe? After all, I'm preaching the gospel. If I preach the gospel on Nairaland, I should collect tithe?....because it says those who preach the gospel should live by the gospel? So everyone that goes on preaching the gospel (in villages, in the buses, in schools, anywhere etc etc) should collect tithe? Is that what Paul is saying? If we go preaching the gospel to sinners, we should collect tithe from them for preaching the gospel to them? Is that what Paul is saying? Apostle Paul is not of those that peddles the gospel for profit. I will expand more during the week.

The first thing we needed to do is go back to establish where "the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel". When the Lord established it, did the Lord mentioned tithe? I take you back to Luke 10:6-7 or Matthew 10:10. That's where the Lord ordained it. Let's hear what Christ said,

New International Version (©1984)
"When you enter a house, first say, 'Peace to this house.' If a man of peace is there, your peace will rest on him; if not, it will return to you. Stay in that house, eating and drinking whatever they give you, for the worker deserves his wages. Do not move around from house to house. "When you enter a town and are welcomed, eat what is set before you. Heal the sick who are there and tell them, 'The kingdom of God is near you.' - Luke 10:5-9


A careful look at the scripture in 1 Corinthians 9:13-14 shows a parallel COMPARISON of how the Old testament levites\priest were supported AND what Christ commanded for those who preach the gospel WITHOUT THE USE OF THE WORD TITHE. Why? Because the labourer is worthy of his wages. Apostle Paul NEVER used the word tithe but rather referred to what the Lord ordained for those who preach the gospel. As we can see in Luke, where the Lord ordained it - IT IS WHATEVER THEY GIVE YOU....when you go preaching the gospel. But today, it is those who preach the gospel that are demanding money from those they preach the gospel to. A sharp contradiction to what Christ ordained. NOWHERE IN SCRIPTURE DID CHRIST COMMANDED OR ORDAINED THAT THOSE WHO PREACH THE GOSPEL ARE TO COLLECT TITHES BECAUSE THAT COMMANDMENT WAS FOR THE TRIBE OF LEVI UNDER THE MOSAIC LAW.

^^^ No, come force sleep for ma eyes na

Warming up and jogging, getting ready to enter thread....

Bidam, I dey come o. You go soon see something. You know say me I go expose you well well. My fear na make you never run comot before I reach out now

@ Bidam, you dey try o But I asked you, do you agree the levitical priesthood is abolished?