₦airaland Forum

Truthman83:
I have noticed that compared to 6 months ago,my fear of death and hell fire is diminishing. This didn't come so easy after losing my faith. At first I was a bit scared but now that I don't think I have a blissful eternity waiting for me. I am somehow more comfortable with death than I usually was.

For the first time I traveled from Abuja to Lagos without praying for safe journey to and fro. I was completely at rest for the first time in my life. Usually I panic and spit out "blood of Jesus" at every given chance. I normally have sleepless night journeys but now it is completely different. Life can be beautiful for those who let it.

Christianity seems to planted in us the fear of death of death.It is seen as a divine punishment,rather than help us accept it as a very natural and neutral part of being alive.

I thought my fears would increase as a non-christian but instead I am enjoying a fantastic peace of mind.

Christianity is supposedly all about removing the fear of death for a promise of eternal bliss, but then it also says heaven is just a hope not a guaranty. One bible verse gives you hope and another one completely nolifies it. The Bible also failed to give the minimum requirement for a believer to make heaven. It seem to be a never ending cycle of fear

I want to thank the Atheist on this forum for relentlessly standing against the wave of religion,otherwise I probably will still be out there nursing my ex state of mind. Thank you!

You said you were afraid of hell fire when you were a christian. You were not a christian if so. A christian is not supposed to be afraid of hell fire because he isnt going there.
What you have done is equivalent to disconnecting the temperature guage of car whose engine is over heating. The over heating hasnt stopped by your disconnecting the temperature guage rather you are deluded thinking it has stopped since the guage is not reading.
That you stopped believing in christianity or in God does not mean there is no God, no heaven and hell. You are just deluded. By the time you find yourself in hell, if you dont repent, you will believe by force but it would have been too late by then. Repent and stop deceiving yourself.

OLAADEGBU:
What is the Gospel of Nicodemus? What is the Acts of Pilate? Should the Gospel of Nicodemus be included in the Bible? Why was the Gospel of Nicodemus rejected by the early church?

Tell us for we know not.

johnydon22:
Always the defence tactics - i think Gotquestions and answeringgenesis would have been reliable if hardmirror provided their links.

I believe Wikipedia is a world leading encyclooedia and they also provide reference links, stop the dodge, read the article then come back and provide yours.

.
Nope. Its not about you. I didnt use wikipedia in Masters research and i 'm not using it in my phd for this same reason. A site i didnt trust to use in academic research is it in religion that i will trust it? No sir.

HardMirror:
Jesus is not an original. Read and learn https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_in_comparative_mythology

.. Wikipedia is where i will read and learn? Abeg leave tory for Tobias.
Wikipedia is not a reliable research site biko. Ask good researchers to confirm.
Jesus is not original yet you jumped your so called original and have been discussing Jesus and comparing him with copycats.
How come your original is not as popular as Jesus since he started before him?

raphieMontella:
There are many christian groups that have evaluated other christian groups to be misguided,,blasphemous,,destined for hell etc..This of course leaves one wondering how this religion could have been supposedly guided by a God,his son and a supernatural inspirator(The holy spirit)...

.
In christianity...
The Mormons(church of lattter day saints) say that they are the only true church and other churches are false.. Today Mormons forbid their members from reading any
religious book that is not personally approved by
their church leadership via a special process called
“correlation.”.

.
The Roman Catholic Church says that all the other
churches of Christendom are in error; are divided on questions of doctrine; are given over to leaders who are not true shepherds; and doomed to damnation as heretics!.

.The Lutheran,Baptist,Methodist and other
Protestant churches say the Roman Catholic Church
is pagan; idolatrous; anti-scripture; in error; and of
satanic origin!.

.
Baptists say that the “infant sprinklers,” they have no remission of sins, and are “damned!”.

.
Seventh Day Adventists say the Sunday consecrators have changed the true Sabbath for the pagan “day of the Sun” and are therefore condemned!.

.
The Sunday keeping churches say that the Adventists was founded by a false prophetess and that she and her followers are “damned”!.

.
The Unitarians say the followers of the trinity are idol worshippers; that the trinity is a pagan,idolatrous concept, taken over from other religions..

.
Trinitarians say the Unitarians are ''condemned'' by the literal teachings of the “New testament”
because they do not take the ‘new testament’ literally..

.
Jehovah’s Witness’ claim that all other churches and
sects are apostates; demonic; agents of
Babylon―Rome and Satan etc.!.

.
Other churches say “Jehovah”s Witnesses”
movement was founded by false prophets;that it mistranslates and
misinterprets scripture just to prove its own erroneous doctrines!.

.
The Christadelphians proclaim that all other Christians are in error: that they do not understand the true meaning of the “Bible”; they believe in
fallacy; and are not “true believers”!.

.
The Pentecostal groups say all other churches are
spiritually dead!.

Within the pentecostal group..various sects disagree on many issues..
Some say ''females wearing trousers'' is demonic;of the devil and is doing so is a criteria for hell..some disagree..
Some say wearing of ''make ups'',,''earrings'',, are of the devil,,leading to hell and God hates it while some disagree..
Some say putting on anything by females like ''attachments'',,''wigs'' other ones natural hair is sinful and of course leads to hell
.Some say women are be allowed to partake in the core affairs of the church and have no authority over men and women who do so are hell-bound..some disagree.

.
While Other churches say the “Pentecostals” are
possessed by “lying spirits” and are under the
influence of mass hysteria!....

.Seriously can a singular non-contradictory ominipotent ''holy spirit'' give such contradictory doctrines to its follower?
If a God who intervenes in human affairs constantly had actually sent his son to commit suicide and sent his holy spirit to inspire followers and start up a church post-Jesus,,christianity would have only only one denomination in a singular dogma as it is a singular spirit who does this inspiration..

---

Did Jesus create any of the denomination you mentioned in the bible? Did he create any denomination at all? Denomination is an invention of man that's why you are seeing the conflict of doctrines..
Yes they claim the holy spirit spoke to them but did the holy spirit claim to have spoken to them?
The worship of God is not about church building or denomination. ..

John 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

HardMirror:
The myth of jesus is a copy of that of osiris.

.
You are just trying to play your usual wayo game. Atheists and deceit. .

raphieMontella:
haha..you didnt just say this
jesus copied like shvt.,,,parables,,lifestyle,,supposed words of wisdom etc
you just need to go back a bit in history

This doesn't address my point. Its obvious u have nothing reasonable to contribute.

OP, is the man you are talking about here claiming to be God or a prophet of God or the son of God?
.
2. Its obvious and acknowledged by you that the man you are talking about here is a copycat. Copying from Jesus just like Mohammed.

3. It is obvious that Jesus did not copy from anybody. Our bible is not an imitation of any other bible. Photocopy cant be original. Imitation remains imitation. Original remains original. The man you are discussing here is an imitation. Jesus already warned us about imitation so we are not suprised about the man you are discussing.

CeoMYN:
Tell yourself the truth and ask no more.

You made a claim and i ask you to explain and this is what you could say? Then your claim is baseless and as such your submission isnt valid.

If you are sure of what you ae saying then point it out to me lets look at it together.

HardMirror:
[size=28pt] MY STORY: Continuation. Most important part of this thread [/size]


THE BIG WIN?
This is the most important part of this whole thread. My inspiration.

June- July 2016 we had the UEFA EURO tournament. A tournament I had prepared well for.
I don't just play bets, I plan ahead. This was the time I was 100% sure I would hit it big.

Well it did not happen. What happened? A week after the tournament, there were lots of friendly games, but something interesting happened during the EURO2016 matches and I will get back to that later.

The day was just one of those ordinary days, nothing special. Friendly matches abounded. I chose 6 games out of the 28 matches I analyzed that day.

I played them. Was expecting 900k+ from one ticket and about 350,000 from another ticket.
I played it and waited as usual.

Well some time around 9pm that day I was with friends having drinks and eating fish barbecue courtesy of a friend that just returned from the UK after his masters program, so we were spending the few Pounds Sterling he brought thanks to high exchange rate.

I opened scorecover.com to check the scores of the matches I played. All games I played that day were over 2.5goals. So I was waiting for Olympiakos friendly match. To my surprise. They had scored about 5 goals.

I jumped up, not believing my luck. When I told my friends what happened they could not believe it just like that?

I was trilled. At last I hit a million naira. 1.3million to be precise.

LESSONS I LEARNT AFTERWARDS

1. Success makes people see you as superhuman.

You need to see how people started collecting my phone number. I mean people I don't know. Men were leaving their drinks and coming to our table to ask for my phone number.

"sir please help me, nairabet has eaten all my money. Please help me give me games let me also win. " Someone I have never met just came to ask me to help him when he heard us celebrating the money I won

That night people were just calling me, Bros/ oga/ sir, don't forget us, give us games.

It was weird.

let one big "Miracle" happen in a church, all of a sudden that church becomes the Church were God is. People start rushing there and begging to be helped, begging to get a miracle also.

[size=32pt] The big problem is people don't ask questions! They don't know the details of the "miracle" [/size]

People did not even know the details of the bet I played!

I played those 2 tickets with 50,000 naira each!
They must have thought I played with N100 or N1,000

That is just one secret.

The second secret?
(Now I don't care if you believe me or not) I had spent 700,000 betting on the EURO 2016 and I lost all the money!

I did not tell a single soul, I have NEVER told anyone. It was my worst secret.
All thanks to the secrecy of online betting and ease of crediting your betting account with atm.

It was terrible 700,000 gone within the month of EURO2016 just like that.

I kept thinking of the things I could have done with the money instead of betting

These people did not know I was rejoicing because I had recovered my terrible lose.

[size=25pt] TESTIMONIES ARE MOSTLY GLORIFIED LIES
[/size]
Yes you read that right.

"Praise God I got admission I did not deserve" he won't tell you he was the VC's candidate and they helped him. He won't tell you how he and his mum were kneeling down to beg the VC to help them.

"Praise God I got a job I did not qualify for!" She won't tell you how she slept with the CEO to get the job.


"Praise God I got healed of HIV" he won't tell you he was misdiagnosed and was given a wrong result.

"Praise God I got a child after 20 years of barrenness" they won't tell you how they traveled out to meet a specialist for artificial insemination or other medical solutions the specialist applied.
Even an athlete that uses performance enhancing drugs would dedicate the Gold medal to GOD.



More on what happened next...

You are partly right and partly wrong here. There are some fabricated testimonies and there are genuine ones. I have already said it earlier that the issue of fake and genuine products/people are everywhere, not only in christianity.
There are people who get this miracles you mentioned genuinely the way you said it.

HardMirror:
To cut the long story short. His vip group was a total disaster!
For the one month I registered. This guy had only abou 4 wins and over 40 loses!
Why did people remain in the group?
They kept reminding themselves that the guy once dropped a game of 240odds and they all won. This means if you played the game with 1000naira you win at least 240,000 naira with bonus, the winning would be about 300,000 naira.
So people kept encouraging themselves. If he has done it before, he can do it again. They believed in his leadership.

There were funny things on the group, people got angry if you keep updating on a tickets progress, they believed if you keep checking your betting ticket, the ticket will lose.

So many superstitions abound with gamblers and these becomes excuses for when loses come.

Churches and christians have lots of excuses for unanswered prayers, could be hidden sin, lack of faith, or not god's will

This is what obtains in gambling too. The forecaster asks you to pay for his services, then you lose and he starts tellling you reasons why you lost. No guarantees!

When advertising they don't tell you there are no guarantees

I left the group when I realized my own forecasts had a higher success rate than this guy's own. So I left the group. And stuck to my own plan.

Then it happened!

Everything that happens in life have reasons that explains them so its not only christans that things happens to for a reason.

CeoMYN:
But Jehovah did, that's why I don't believe in Jehovah. I am searching for the truth.

How pls?

Atheism is a waste. Not worth my trying.

To God be the glory. Atheism is such a useless venture.

HardMirror:
[size=16pt] My Story: Continuation[/size]
I recall playing 2 matches within that week, guess what. I lost the 2 games, both real madrid and Barcelona lost their games. Zap! N7,000 was gone, just like that!
I was shocked. I regretted ever playing. Why did I even consider this rubbish in the first place?
But I was smiling, I was with my friends and I did not want to look like a weakling.
They were encouraging me not to give up that it's like that, you win some you lose some. Even sure teams like barcelona and real madrid can be beaten.
I was shocked!
But I was also well encouraged by those I watched the last match with. It was terrible.
Celta Vigo dealt with Barcelona as if they were secondary school boys.

Anyway I will keep trying as those guys had advised.

(This is exactly how christians behave, you pray and fast, no answers, only disappointments, yet they tell you to increase your faith, they tell you to keep praying. Increase which faith again? Faith as small as mustard seed can move mount everest and cast it into the sea, yet it cannot get me a job, or provide for my immediate needs? Disappointments upon disappointments yet all you have to do is keep praying.)

In the bible we are told about faith. We are also told about trials and temptation, about persecutions and tribulations that will come our way.Any of these factors could be the reason for prayers being unanswered.
Paul had a particular health issue worrying him, he prayed severally about it but God refused to heal him and told him that his grace was sufficient for him.
Christianity as presented in the scriptures is not all bed of roses so your encounter with those who kept asking you to increase your faith remains your business with them and does not reflect the principles of christianity.

EyeHateGod:
it doesn't matter they all Fit

A real gambler wouldnt stick to one religion out of the many like christians do so your meme is not right. Maybe you need to go through HardMirror's thread again to understand gambling skills. You answered like someone who didnt read all of it.

As for your "it doesnt matter" response, you are just being hypocritical. When you take something that is general to human and present it as if it is peculiar to christians alone thats hypocrisy so it matters in this case. Stop being insincere.

In continuation of my response to your posts.

You wrote this

HardMirror:
[size=16pt] My Story: Continuation[/size]
This guy would tell me how he is winning 11,000 with just N200 and such stories and he kept saying he wished he had big money to gamble.
I am a contractor and most times I just hang around at home doing nothing waiting for the next contract while spending the proceeds of the last contracts "chopping life" in peace.
Most times I don't get more than 2 or 3 jobs a year and the proceeds are enough for me and my family to settle all bills and flex life until luck comes my way again. Goodluck Johnathan's era was a great year with lots of contract unlike now that government passed budget and I don't know anyone benefiting from the budget.

Then one day another guy I was not close to came to use my internet service to browse, he even came with his friend. Now note: unlike the other jobless guy, this ones were cool guys, sons of very wealthy parents. "Big boys"
I was shocked! So big boys also play sports betting?
Wow!
Honestly I got interested.

(This was how many also became christians, when you see educated men rolling on the ground for Jesus, you begin to get seriously interested in this jesus that big men are rolling on the floor for)

For the first time ever my perspective of gamblers change. I started asking them questions, they laughed and told me that even their own rich parents also play sports betting, told me of their uncles who are bank managers and oil company workers who play with big money some even gamble a million naira a single day. I was shocked!

I asked them what they were playing that day and they said they only needed 3 or 2 odds and they are ok! For real? 3odds? Unlike that other guy that is broke that always looking for 1000odds that will turn 100 naira to 100,000 naira.

My mind started calculating. If I can get just 3 odds on saturday and another 3 odds on sunday I could be making cool cash everyweek instead of just saving my money in bank

Again you lied in the bolded. People seek to be born again when they hear the word of God and are convinced by it. And of course something motivates you to do anything you are doing. Its normal about we human so you dont need to engage in the wayo you tried to play here with your statement In one of your thread here you said you were a secret atheist until you read Seun's post then you started being open. Here you tried to isolate what you said in the bolded to christianity alone whereas it is a general human characteristics which you are also guily of. Seun's post motivated you to become an athest, are you not guilty of what you accused christians of doing? You made it appear like a christian thing whereas Its happening everywhere. Any hair style that a celebrity makes starts reigning across the society, no matter how awkward or crazy it may look. Their fashion style are copied whereas a nobody has worn that style of cloth before without anybody noticing it. When a celebrity wears that style people embrace it. People like to talk like celebrities, act like them and copy them in so many things. Human beings have things that motivate them to do one thing or the other so trying to isolate it to christianity alone when it even reigns much more in the secular world is hypocritical of you.

you wrote this

HardMirror:
YOU NEED TO BE WITH THE RIGHT CHURCH/FORECASTER[/size]

FORECASTERS are "experts" at telling you what to expect as the outcome of a Football match, tennis match, basketball or any sport they are experts in. Many gamblers rely on these forecasters to get the right games to bet on so they can win. Forecasters claim to be "special" they tell you how successful they are in predicting match outcomes. They tell you have not won millions because you have not been their client. They tell you to subscribe for their predictions and they will make you a millionaire in your gambling quest.

Why has your prayers been unanswered for so many years? Why?! Because you are in the wrong church! Yes! There is no Power in Redeem! Come to the Lord's chosen, that is where God is answering prayers. No! Come to MOuntain of Fire ministries, No! It is in Winners! No! It is Redeem again, one dead man came back to life in redeem church.


]

Yea the bolded are what you hear from some people around but not what Christ taught so it cant be used as a standard for christianity.
Jesus taught us about faith in God when we pray, not jumping from one church to another. Jesus also taught us that when we come to offer our prayer before God and remember that we have an issue to settle with somebody that we should go first and settle with the person before coming to God. Obviously your gambling has no comparison with Jesus standard. I tell you, a lot of Christians prefer the Jesus standard more than what you wrote up there.
There are some other things that we are told in the scriptures concerning our prayers and these are the things that matters in christianity not what some persons around you say.

HardMirror:
YOU NEED TO BE WITH THE RIGHT CHURCH/FORECASTER[/size]

[size=16pt] SUCCESS COMES AT A COST! PAYUP TO GET RESULTS[/size]
Are you ready for serious gambling? You have not started until you begin to pay for fixed matches, sure games, pay professional forecasters to give you sure games. Free games are for those who will remain poor you will be told!

You don't pay your tithe, you don't pay your first fruit offering, you don't give "Pastor's Offering", you don't pay "Sacrificial Seed" and you expect God to bless you? You are not yet serious. Pay up and enroll for sure blessing.


[size=32pt] TO Be continued, I will tell you my story as a gambler and lessons a learned even after hitting it big gambling and how I relate it to my life as a christian[/size]

Again the bolded is not the standard of christianity rather your fellow gamblers who invaded the ministry are the ones using all forms of gambling skills to make money for themselves and their families and its quite a shame. You dont coerce people into giving God. The scripture says we should give out of our own mind. The early churches in the bible made a willing offering which was collected when they meet for worship on the first day of the week. After they have made their contributions at the feet of the apostles, the contributions will now be shared according to every man's need. The scripture said that no man lacked anything among them. This is how christianity should be and that is the basis you should use to judge christianity.
Quite unfortunate that the gamblers in the ministry whose god is money are stockpiling today's church offerings in their personal accounts, riding expensive cars, buying expensive houses and private jets while the congregation are suffering. They build schools with the contribution of church members then turn around to take the school beyond the reach of these members. Its quite a shame and runs contrary to what christianity should be as recorded in the scripture so you shouldnt use it to judge christianity.
Yet the truth remains that there are churches in our time that are not crazy about money, they dont practice the greed that we see in some other churches. in such churches, their leaders live a modest life and have no free access to church fund.

Jesus taught us to give to th poor. At one point, a rich man came to him and Jesus told him to go and sell all that he has and give to the poor. The christianity Jesus brought for us says we should give to the poor. Give to people. He showed example by feeding thousands of people that came to listen to him. He didnt collect the one they had. Church offerings are to be used like the early churches, to minister to the need of brethren. This is christianity and has no comparison with your gambling.
IF greed was part of christianity Jesus wouldnt have commended the widow who made the least offering(refereed to as widow's mite today), he would ve commended the money bags who gave large sum of money. Dont use the greed of today's church as christianity standard.

This thread is a response to the cry of a frustrated atheist gambler here who operates by the user name- HardMirror. In his submissions he tried to draw a kind of relationship between gambling and christianity.
I will be responding to his submissions as time permits me so that readers will view his positions from another angle so as not to be deceived.

He started with this

HardMirror:
THE DELUSION OF SPORTS BETTING (GAMBLING), THE DELUSION OF CHRISTIANITY

Have you noticed the popularity of Sports betting in recent times. Have you noticed how every street in Nigeria's major cities are littered with betting shops?

Call the youths and old men patronizing those betting shops fools, they don't care why?


[size=16pt] WHO IS THE FOOL? FOOLISHNESS VS WISDOM[/size]
A non gambler sees gamblers as fools and jobless. You look at them and pity them, why are these people wasting their lives and destines. Wasting their hard earned money on uncertainty. You see foolishness, they see wisdom.
You see waste of time, they see reward. The gambler sees "cheap", quick return on investment. Where 100naira can become 10million naira under a few hours. So who is the real fool? The gambler or those who thing gambling is wrong?
Christians are seen as fools, BUT there are well motivated. There is a reward they think is worth being a fool for.
Where without much effort other than mumble some confessions of Jesus being your savior, you can have good health, riches, success, peace and ever lasting life. Big rewards are the motivation, the reward in pursuit. So are gamblers and christians fools?
Think twice!


[size=16pt] TESTIMONIES NOT JUST PROMISES[/size]
Imagine Nairabet operating for over 10 years and not a single person ever won a Million naira. Do you think people will still be betting?
Absolutely No.

I was at computer village Ikeja about 2 weeks ago and many people were discussing about the "boys" in computer village that have won millions, many more were more determined to keep betting and confident that one day it would be their turn to hit the jackpot and win millions too.
I smiled to myself they did not know that their customer was a professional gambler that had seen it all and could teach them one or two things.

Christians are highly motivated by testimonies. Just like the Betting bookers (Nairabet, Merrybet, Bet360, Williamhill, Bet9ja etc), churches (Redeem, Winners, Love Domain, SCOAN, Lord's Chosen, etc) don't joke with testimonies at all.

When churches do adverts they always try to show that they are getting testimonies, the publish the testimonies, show people falling under amointing of Daddy G.O. Etc.
Sportbetting Bookers also do the same, they make the success stories publicized. People spread the news.

Even none gamblers will be tempted to try it...


[size=16pt] LET ME GIVE IT A TRY[/size]
Yes Chinedu just won 4million naira with 500naira, just 500 naira! Wow! You hate gambling so much but men! 4,000,000 with 500?! I must give it a try!

Mrs Banke has been barren for 20years, she gave birth to triplets after Pastor TB Joshua prayed for her! Wow!
Alhaji Musa hears the story and he decides to give Jesus a try, he has nothing to lose, after waiting for a child for just 5years, the God that Gave Mrs Banke tripplet after 20years should be able to give him just one child.

1. While i agree that some churches fit into the picture you have painted, there are other churches who dont fit into it so the generalization you made by referring to christianity as a whole is an error on your part. If you say 'some churches" then its understandable. Christianity has been growing in popularity right from the time of Jesus till date. Some of the things you wrote here started around the 90s when your fellow gamblers entered the ministry and introduced all sorts of gambling techniques in the church. The core message of Christ our master was LOVE, LOVE, LOVE, REPENTANCE AND THE KINGDOM OF GOD. Read the bible well and you will see that the message that Christ preached was centered(mark the word CENTERED) on the above mentioned which is different from the picture you painted. If you want to judge Christianity then judge us based on what Jesus preached. Judge us based on what the early church in the bible preached and practiced, not based on what some churches are preaching or doing these days

2. You said christians are highly motivated by testimonies. Again thats an imbalanced postulation. The truth there is that humans are highly motivated with testimonies. Was it not testimonies of your friends that motivated you(an atheist) into gambling? Or were you born a gambler? Again does the testimonies of other atheist not motivate you in your journey in atheism? Testimonies play major role in human. Trying to isolate it to Christianity and gamblers alone shows hypocrisy on your part. Your C.V. is a testimony of you and companies request for the testimony so as to know if you are capable of taking up the position they require to be filled. When companies advertise their product its a form of testimony that they are giving out to the public about their organization. The messages of atheism that you are giving out here from time to time and in other forums are testimonies and you are doing it for the same purpose of winning people's interest to your believe and ideology so dont be hypocritical about this. Everybody engages in one form of testimony or the other at some points in life. Everbody is motivated by testimony.

3. While some of the testimonies you see being advertised by some churches are fake and masterminded by your fellow gamblers who are in the ministry to deceive people, others are genuine testimonies. Of course we cant get the world rid of fake products. In almost every field of life there are fake and original. In the medical field we have fake doctors. In engineering we have the fake ones. There are fake policemen, fake army officers, fake christians fake atheists etc. Its everywhere so dont isolate the picture to christianity alone.

Let me stop here for now and attend to some other things. As i earlier said, I will be responding to the rest of your submissions later as time permits.

SirWere:
Yeah; I was disappointed too.

But I could see his point. I mean; why waste time and precious money for an event that will probably never happen.


C'mon; what's the point

You people always ask of proof in an argument and now somebody wants to show proof, he chickens out on the grounds of assumption. Does that make sense? No.
Again that does not show sincerity on you people's part on the word "proof" that you make so much noise about.

SirWere:
.... Like Carl Sagan said:


"I don't want to believe.

I want to know"


It's funny how no recorded case of an amputee has EVER happened!

.

A Christian here gave one of you a challenge to bring an amputee for him to be prayed for, promising to bear all expenses involved in the trip. Your atheist brother developed cold feet and started giving all sorts of irrelevant excuses even to the disappointment of his fellow atheists.

kolawaxxy:
People also get amputated due to accidents. What's your defense for God in this case?

Yeah. i have addressed it in the link below.

https://www.nairaland.com/3342740/why-want-yahweh-make-amputee

EyeHateGod:
See jrfc abi Watin them day call am is offering a million dollars if anyone can prove anything supernatural i mean in that God context! So bro ur chance to get Rich Though i wonder why not any pastors and miracle worker have taken up the Challenge yet"

\

Somebody here gave an atheist here a challenge to bring an amputee for him to be prayed for. He promised the atheist an all expense paid trip but we all here saw how the atheist developed cold feet to the offer even to the disappointment of his fellow atheists. Leave that your talk abeg.

Lennycool:
This post is ridiculous, saying God doesn't heal amputees because amputations aren't diseases. Then ask your self why numerous pastors and even Jesus claim to bring the dead to life, is death a disease? Or in the case of blindness, which also isn't a disease. Miracles performed by pastors are just clever tricks and illusions and regeneration of limbs is just harder to perform, haven't you ever wondered why there hasn't ever been a well documented healing of a lame or blind person, or even an AIDS sufferer. Nigerians should open their eyes oh and stop giving excuses for a being that clearly doesn't exist.
Www.godisimaginary.com

I'm not sure you read the Op to the end.

hopefulLandlord:
first off, he tries to wiggle by saying



he is basically saying making an amputee limb grow is not "healing"

this is what the Christian apologists try to resort to, start "defining" words in order to sound smart while not saying anything at all

why its bull sheet

What we want is to see a limb grow

Jesus changed water to wine, was he "healing" the wedding?

when Jesus fed 5000 adults with 5 loaves of bread and two fishes, was he "healing" them of hunger?

and the biggest example yet,

when Lazarus was raised from the dead, was it a "healing"?

was he "healed" of death?

is "death" a "disease"?

I'm sure if we are to rank miracles, making a limb grow would be somewhere below raising the dead on the scale

Whatever "words" Christians want to call "making a limb grow" is fine by us

WE JUST WANT TO SEE A LIMB GROW

he also said


Guns, weapons, explosives, dynamite, bombs, fireworks, etc.
.a

Ok. My point here is not whether God can heal amputees or not. He can heal them if he wants like I said before but I was trying to look at it from the angle some of you have based their argument. It has always been a case of, if Jesus and the apostles healed people in the bible why don’t you Christians prove your healing power now by healing an amputee. In that case I say that in the bible we are given powers to heal sicknesses and diseases and amputation is not a disease. We are also given the power to raise the dead.

[b]Matthew 10;
7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

[/b]
There are limits to what we can do. We are not given power to do all things, we are not God.
God can still use us to pray for a limb to grow if in his wisdom he wants to. I can agree that there are lots of fake miracles in churches because of the greediness that has gripped a lot of pastors and its quite a shame to see this happen. A lot of those people are not called by God, they are just in the ministry to scam people with religion and fake miracles However this does not mean that there are no real miracles happening today. They are happening and i have seen them even in my body too.

hopefulLandlord:
I'm tryna make some sense out of the above and I'm scratching my head with my head literally expanding like "Brain" in the cartoon "pinky and the brain"

why its bullsheeet
so this our intelligent Christian apologist is saying god definitely heals the "disease" that leads to amputation like car accidents, mine explosions, terror attack, hostage situations (they're known to cut the hostage's finger and mail it in certain situations)

let's examine specific examples of those things that lead to amputation that Yahweh could've "healed" before it got there
.
In 2007, 66-year-old Al Hill amputated his leg below the knee using his pocketknife after the leg got stuck beneath a fallen tree he was cutting in California.
.
In 2007, Sampson Parker, a South Carolina farmer, cut off his own arm after it became stuck in a corn harvester.
.
In 2003, 27-year-old Aron Ralston amputated his forearm using his pocketknife and breaking and tearing the two bones , after the arm got stuck under a boulder when hiking in Utah.
.
In 2003, an Australian coal miner amputated his own arm with a Stanley knife after it became trapped when the front-end loader he was driving overturned three kilometers underground.
.
these are cases of people amputating themselves in order to go on living
.
Looking at the above, we can deduce that Mr Honourhim (who defined "healing" is actually saying Yahweh could've "healed" the diseases that lead to the amputation like "heal" the tree from falling, "heal" the corn harvester from working, "heal" the boulder from trapping
.
the only sense I can make of this is that Mr Honourhim was extremely myopic to have thought only "diseases" lead to amputation

in fact, diseases far less account for amputation than accidents, consider the below also lead to amputation:

Traffic accidents (cars, motorcycles, bicycles, trains, etc.)
.
Labor accidents (equipment, instruments, cylinders, chainsaws, press machines, meat machines, wood machines, etc.)
.
Agricultural accidents, with machines and mower equipment
.
Electric shock hazards
.
Guns, weapons, explosives, dynamite, bombs, fireworks, etc.
.
Violent rupture of ship rope or industry wire rope
Ring traction (ring amputation, de-gloving injuries)
.
Building doors and car doors
Gas cylinder explosions



a

Ok here you gave me a reminder on other things that can lead to amputation which i didnt think about when i made that statement. The cases you listed here were not diseases i agree but accidents. This case falls under protection. God protects us from situation that can lead us to amputation but if he allows it to happen then thats it. Protection is part of provisions made for us just as healing. The point i was trying to make is that since there is provision for healing diseases and protection against evil then people can be cured of disease that will lead to amputation or protected against situations that will lead to amputation. If God allows them to fall into amputation then it does not mean that God cannot protect rather that is part of the bitter aspect of life they have to face just as everyone of us have bitter sides of life that we have to face. The world is not meant to be a perfect place.

hopefulLandlord:
what did I just read?

my head swelled again in order to make sense of this

why its bullsheeet
what he is saying is that its Yahweh that gave those doctors the ability to make groundbreaking discoveries that have led to cure and prevention of many debilitating diseases, disorders and conditions

for the sake of arguments, let's say this is true

now we will see in the bible that almost every "miracle" performed by Jesus Christ were things that no human at the time cannot possibly do

let's now take a simple look at a particular miracle in the bible

And a woman was there who had been subject to bleeding for twelve years. She had suffered a great deal under the care of many doctors and had spent all she had, yet instead of getting better she grew worse. When she heard about Jesus, she came up behind him in the crowd and touched his cloak, because she thought, “If I just touch his clothes, I will be healed. ” Immediately her bleeding stopped and she felt in her body that she was freed from her suffering.

as we can see from the above story, she had "suffered a great deal under care of many doctors", meaning she had tried everything medically possible to no avail and must've spent huge money in the process too but Yahweh healed her; Yahweh didn't make doctors find a cure
.
consider the below example too

Jesus, visiting Jerusalem for a Jewish feast ( John 5:1 ), encounters one of the disabled people who used to lie here, a man who had been paralysed for thirty-eight years. "an angel went down at a certain time into the pool and stirred up the water; then whoever stepped in first, after the stirring of the water, was made well of whatever disease he had" ( John 5:4 - see John 5 ). Jesus asks the man if he wants to get well. The man explains that he is unable to enter the water when the water is stirred up, because he has no one to help in and others go down ahead of him. Jesus tells him to pick up his bed or mat and walk; the man is instantly cured and is able to do so.
.
as we can also see here, no doctor could help the man, Jesus didn't make doctors find a cure, he cured him
.
even though Jesus could've simply told the 5000 to go and look for food, he instead decided to feed them with 5 loaves and 2 fishes with many basketfuls of crumbs left, that didn't make the 5000 start depending on him to do it for them day and night did they? did they stop working because they have Jesus that can feed many people miraculously? of course not
.

when Jesus healed Peter's mother in-law of high fever, did the doctors stop working day and night to find the cause and cure for fever?
.
did winemakers simply stopped their job because a certain Jesus changed water to wine?
.
did doctors suddenly stopped working when the Man with withered hands was healed?
.
did they stop searching for a permanent solution to deafness and muteness when Jesus healed the man at Decapolis?
.
did all the doctors at Gennesaret suddenly go out of business when Jesus' cloak healed everyone that touched it?
.

i wonder why Christians conjure up these pathetic excuses when it comes to making a limb grow

really?

we atheists seriously doubt Yahweh's existence, we are not accusing him of incompetence, that's an understatement, we are not even accusing him of anything, we simply don't believe he exists
.
Matthew 7:7 Jesus says:
Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. Or what man of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!
.
Matthew 17:20
For truly, I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you.
.
Matthew 21:22
I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and it will be done. If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.
.
Matthew 18:19
Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
.
if these verses happen to be true, then healing an amputee shouldn't be something you need to make up excuses for since you have faith
.
Hell, Jesus even said you guys would do greater works In John chapter 14, verses 12 through 14,
Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I go to the Father. Whatever you ask in my name, I will do it, that the Father may be glorified in the Son; if you ask anything in my name, I will do it.
.
we are telling you to do "lesser" work here after all, Making a limb grow is far lesser than making someone that's been dead for about a week to come back to life, isn't it?
.
we are not telling you to move mount everest to Nigeria

I have already answered this that there is a limit to which we can operate. This does not mean that if God wants to use us to grow limbs he cannot do it. He can do it.

Also note that we are giving various spiritual gifts so its not every christian that has the gift of miracle or the gift of healing. If you dont have the gift of healing you cant heal.
Note again that some of the words that Jesus spoke, such as the ones you quoted above, does not apply generally to all christians. The biblical portion below may help you understand this. Some statements of Jesus are only applicable to the people he has blessed with certain gifts for what he said.

1 cor. 12
4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.

6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

O Lord my God, how excellent is your name in all the earth. Thank you Lord for your goodness and mercy to us. Amen and Amen.

@OP, I will respond later when i'm free. Make i go church first.
But just bear it in mind that i 'm not here to defend God rather i reason about him and in that case i accept contrary opinion because it helps in my reasoning.

I have read atheists here making a mockery of miracle and throwing up challenges that God should heal an amputee. I am still wondering whether amputation is a disease. I have not come across any disease called amputation but i know that it is disease that can lead to amputation.Those in the medicals can correct me where i am wrong in the above statement. We know that God heals sicknesses and diseases as recorded in the scripture. In this case God can heal that disease that leads to amputation. Where someone is not healed and his case gets to the level of amputation that does not mean that there are not others that God has healed out there. I also do not think that God's intention is to heal everybody's diseases in this world. We are still in this flesh and the flesh will experience these abnormalities from time to time.

A good number of us have witnessed miraculous healing in our lives. God heals in various ways. He could heal miraculously or through the knowledge/gift of medication which he has deposited in some human. God created us with different gifts so that we can use it to serve humanity to his own glory and to our own blessings.
Some are blessed in the medical field, some in Engineering, some in arts etc. all these blessings are meant to serve humanities. This does not stop God from intervening in providing direct healing to sicknesses/diseases without going through medicals or herbal. We cant also expect God to be doing miraculous healing to everybody because this will render the gift he has given to those in the medical field useless. Same goes with other professions. If God wanted us to just sit idly all through life while he does everything for us then he wouldnt have deposited these various gifts in us.

If God decides to heal an amputee then thats it, but if he decides not to then we cant accuse him of incapability. Amputation is not a disease/ sickness.

Ranchhoddas:
He knew they were going to sin. He also knew He was going to curse them.

Yea. It is written in the book of Revelation that Jesus is the lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world. God didnt create man to be perfect and in that case he knew that as imperfect beings they will err at some point hence he made the redemption plan which operated as a shadow in the old testament and manifested fully in the new testament.

Ranchhoddas:
So our entire existence is one big movie?

Before God our existence might be like a movie he has already watched from the beginning to the end. To us its an unfolding scenario.

Mcowubaba:
I didn't mean to degrade or insult you Sir. I apologize in anyway I offended you..
God help us all

Thanks my brother. God bless you.

rexlims:
@op, I feel u. presently I am in dis state of mind where I dont see d Importance of going to church, studying d bible and lots more. I try to reason every actions and inactions from a logical point of view.
my wife, parents and siblings are all worried at dis change of attitude. I try to explain to them dat I love God. but doubt cos I dnt go to church. I dnt hv much but I hv equally accepted dat I cant hv evrytin in dis world as a person. I hv been to so many churches but it is d same msg- tithe, seed sowing, u nt prospering cos u are nt paying tithe etc. it makes me start thinking if God is to b paid before he blesses sum one.

God will help you my brother. Continue to seek more closer tie with God one on one. Jesus did not form any denomination that we must attend. The bible advised us not to forsake the assembling of ourselves and based on this advise, it is still good that you be part of gathering where God is worshiped even if you dont follow all their religious rituals.
Ask God for more guidance. Develop a personal relationship with him.

Ranchhoddas:
Not true. If God sees the end from the beginning, why did He not see the disobedience, why did he curse them for something he had seen they were going to do?

God cursed them because of their act of disobedience. It was based on their act. God does not base his punishment to man on whether He(God) had foreknowledge of the act or not. It is based on the man carrying out the act.

Ranchhoddas:
What it the point of preaching to people if God knows who is going to repent and who isn't?

The point of preaching to people is for them to hear the word and repent. They are human and they need to hear before they repent. Preaching is therefore for the benefit of man not God so it has no much to do with God's foreknowledge. Or it doesnt cancel the truth about God's foreknowledge.