₦airaland Forum

The funny thing about this debate is tackling is not a skill you can lose so long as you are physically fit.

Anyone who could tackle in 2014 can still tackle in 2016 so long as his physical fitness is intact.

So claiming that someone lost the ability to tackle is a non starter.

The only reason why tackle stats should vary is different requirements placed on a player.

I bet Nihilist if we average out Matic tackle stats per 90 minutes from his worst ever season last year, they will be similar to 2014/15.

So nobody has forgotten how to tackle. Requirements are just different. You can never forget how to tackle.

Playing with Fabregas requires you to make more desperate last ditch tackles because Fabregas cannot keep up his side of the midfield press. Playing with Kante is a different situation because everyone is in position in the press.

Nihilist:
If we've gotten to the point where we have to question the veracity of the stats that Skysports, BBC, The English Premier League and other reputable organisations including our own dear club pay for, then there is a big problem.

Obviously the follow on to that is, how can we trust some stats provided by Opta and then disregard some other stats presented by Opta as Tosh? In fact, why bother using stats at all?

Some stats are indisputable.

1.) How many goals did you score?
2.) How many assists did you make?
3.) How many kilometres did you run?
4.) How many passes did you make?

If you notice my debates, these are usually the only stats I consider because they are objective and relevant.


These other stats you keep bringing up are subjective and subject to rules that do not lend themselves to the game of football.


If I shade you off the ball with my shoulder strength (eg Dembele) and take the ball from you, it is not counted as a tackle - SUBJECTIVE
If your touch is loose and I quickly put my body between you and the ball without tackling you, it is not a tackle - SUBJECTIVE
If Messi dribbles 3 players, but the 4th fouls him, no dribble is recorded. . . . whereas someone else might record 3 dribbles - SUBJECTIVE

You might even start hearing rules like "the dribble is not complete unless you leave the player 5 yards behind" etc. . . . whereas someone like Okocha will never leave you 5 yards behind but only needs you to give him one yard to play the cross or pass.

That's why you have stats like Adamu Traore making 6 dribbles per game and Messi only making 3 dribbles. Haba!


So all these stats where you hear, player X made 3 tackles and player Y made 1.4 tackles are dustbin stats.

They may be relevant for a manager looking for a signing that can implement an early confrontation style eg Jurgen Klopp, however if you are a manager that plays low block pressing, number of tackles is not important to you. The whole point of the low block is to squeeze space till the opponent give up the ball, not to confront them with tackles. They do not however tell you that Player X is better than Player Y. they only tell you Player X's style of play.


Generally if stats are low volume, they are not worth the time.

The only of these stat that made me sit up recently was hearing that Kante made 14 tackles against Liverpool.

raumdeuter:
Ibime so what were the stats that made Matic excel in 2014 compared to other midfielders

What stats are there for good positioning and intelligent pressing? That is the bulk of defensive midfield play.

His passing stats were good, as was his running stats. That is all I check to let me know if he is in the game. It is not necessarily the determinant of who's the best, just to let me know he is more than competent in those areas.

The other small volume stats such as tackling, interception etc have never been a consideration of mine.

raumdeuter:
WHat are the miles run by Matic in 2014? WHat was his passing stats in 2014. Was he the best in the league in these stats to be named the best DM of the season

Matic is consistently in top 10 running stats every season.

Nihilist:
These kind of yarns always annoy me because in this case I wasn't even talking to you. I was responding to lordfalcao and you quoted me. When I hit you with facts, you changed it to 'go an ask Conte' yarns

When I asked what Matic does, instead of giving me concrete answers, you listed running stats and said that he leans on players like Michael Bolton.

It's not my fault that you don't understand the terms that Whoscored and Opta use.

See their definition of dribble here

Dribble (Successful Dribble)
- Taking on an opponent and successfully making it past them whilst retaining the ball

The Dribble that you see there is the dribble that is successful. Mahrez attempts more dribbles than Filipe Luiz...the difference is Mahrez is doing his dribbling in heavily marked zones surrounded by defenders and midfielders and is often tackled and fouled. Luiz is at the back or outwide dribbling past the opposing wingers with little Marking.

My brother, we are not fighting. You quoted me reeling off tackling and interception stats which is what exasperated me, as I have let you know many times that such stats are irrelevant to me.

Dribbling stats is absolute tosh. I don't even know what they are recording. Mahrez dribbles at least 15-20 times per game and still retains the ball.

Same with tackling stats. If Matic or Mikel put their big nyash between a player and the ball and rob him, it is not a recorded tackle. Any in-game stats where you see average of 2,3 or less than 10 is for the rubbish bin and not worthy of discussion.

raumdeuter:
I actually agree with you on some of these measures as my own is that there are several ways to kill a chicken, A DM is to stop attack whether its by tackles or blocking the path the main aim is to snuff out attacks

Whilst the aim of an attacker is to beat defenders whether he does that by running, by superior positioning by dribbling or by black magic
which was why I always have problems with posters who will go on about Hazards dribbling this and that.

Back to you. what are the suprior metrics/stats of Matic in 2014 that made him the best DM in the league?

With DMs, observation is mostly visual. Are players running through Matic side wily nily?

The only stats I pay attention to for DMs is km run per game and passing stats. Km per game lets me know they are working hard and contributing to midfield pressing.

Passing volume also assures me they are involved in controlling the game and not giving the ball away in dangerous areas. I combine this with visual cognisanze of which positions they receive the ball in. If they receive in tight areas like Matic does, then more kudos. Some like Ramires used to hide on the pitch and never move toward the centreback to receive the ball. He only wants to receive the ball in space with no one around him. That is not midfield play.

raumdeuter:
In the 2014 stats posted by nihilist, the only thing that Matic excelled in was tackles. That is the 2014 season that is the highpoint of his Chelsea career

In 2014 the tackle rates mattered for Matic because he was the leader in making tackles, in 2017 it no longer mattered because Matic cant deliver those tackles

Similar to how awards matter for Terry but dont matter for Iniesta

Have you ever seen me, Ibime, talking about tackling stats as a mode for comparing players in my 10 years on Nairaland?

You mean someone with common sense will see a 90 minute match with all the possession turnovers going on in midfield and think 3 tackles per match tells the story of all of that?

My exasperation with Nihilist is that I've told him many times that such stats do not even come into my assessment, yet he keeps trying to analyse them with me. It's like hitting my head against a brick wall. Like I said, such stats are just indicators of style of play, not of efficiency.

I mean, who can tell me that Felipe Luiz is a better dribbler than Riyadh Mahrez? Dribbling like tackling is something they record 3 dribbles per game. Even Messi, 3 dribbles per game. Please we should learn to leave rubbish for LAWMA and debate intelligently.

Nihilist:
This isn't true.

That 2014/15 season Matic attempted and completed more tackles than anybody else in the league - including defenders, midfielders and strikers

So everything in your post is already out of the window.

The only thing that has changed is that we went a bought a guy in Kante who is a master at tackling ( see his stats below)

Now that Matic cannot offer us tackles again since his boss is doing that? What else is Matic bringing to the table?

The answer is nothing, because he's just a big for nothing fool. He makes less than a key pass a game so he's not creating chances. He makes fewer passes than Kante so he's not controlling possesion.

Okay maybe Kante does the tackling and Matic blocks passing lanes to intercept passes - na lie, Kante makes more interceptions than Matic too.

We might as well just play 3 3 4 with only Kante in midfield and squeeze in another attacker cos Kante is doing all the work anyway!

I have never made tackling or interceptions my basis for reading anything into midfield play so I don't why you keep bringing meaningless stats into your discussion with me. Discussing any stats other than goals, assist, km per game and passing volume is an insult to my intelligence and I will not engage in such discussion.

Go and tell this one to Conte. Anything else I say will be a waste of breath.

Nihilist:
I know Gueye wasnt here back then, but I deliberately did not mention him to avoid style of play excuses.

It's like I said to you last week. Matic and Kante play in the exact same system now

From the Tackle numbers we can see that Kante is clearly doing the work that Matic used to do for Fabregas. So what is Matic doing?

If we look at our last game, the answer is 'not a lot'

This is individual style of play, not team system.

Unless you want to go and sign Idrissa Gueye, you can see that most midfielders tackle less than Matic.

If Wanyama come to Chelsea, he would still tackle less than Matic because everytime Wanyama tackles, they give him yellow card.

It is those small players like Kante and Idrissa that launch themselves into tackles. If a big guy like Wanyama or Matic slide tackle you, he can break your leg and referees wont favour it. They have the strength and body size to shade you off the ball without needing to tackle.

That's why I don't like discussing yeye stats like tackling.

bandely:
Frank Lampard retires!

True LEGEND!
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C3p-m7aWYAAZGGD.jpg

My man retires with over 300 career goals and 200 assists to his name.

Lord please make me as productive as Lampard, and keep the spirit of eunuchs away from me.

Nihilist:
Matic should be ashamed. Kante wasn't even in England in 14\15 season and he still out tackled him.

This is all based on style of play. Idrissa Gueye is the same. He wasn't in EPL 14/15 but he's top 10 on the list.

God bless the day we signed Kante. One Arsenal or Manure boy was laughing at me in summer when I said he is the signing of the season. Well it's clear he is now almost solely responsible for two league trophies back to back. First with Leicester and now with Chelsea. In both cases he took two relegation threatened teams and turned em into Champions the next season. Kai, that guy must be worth £150m in true value.

Mannequin challenge niggas!

Pep problem with Aguero is his pressing because Aguero only runs 7km per game while his mates run 11km

Wetin Klopp talk say if you win 13 matches in a row and are only 5 points clear, you will be disappointed.

Tell him to go look table now.

Good result.

I for say Diego why na, but as Spurs drew, I'm completely satisfied.

Oh Lord, so I bench Luiz? I never check my team since last week

lordfalcao:
his shooting is poor, everything about his game is top notch, apart from shooting.

His shooting is fine. Many of his goals are long range. The top goalscoring score massive volume by timing their runs into the box. That's the difference between an Alli and a Hazard.

Bournemouth bid £18m for Ake.

Chelsea are shocked by the size of the bid and neveresperredit so they are letting Ake decide for himself.

Personally I'm also on the fence. Either way is fine by me, although I feel Ake can grow to a £35m player in the future.

Hazard is doing just fine. 9 goals so far equals 17 for the season which is fine by me. His shooting is OK, it's his off-the-ball movement to arrive in the box that could improve.

As long as there is an impotent eunuch somewhere contributing 2 goals and 3 assists per season, yet they hail him, then for me Hazard dey kampke.

lordfalcao:
jelavic ??

Yes Jelavic and many besides him like Gary Hooper who was tearing down Scottish league.

FBS, your boy done land o

Who want use all these pump actions? Our militants and herdsmen don graduate to AK47 tay tay. Maybe its intended for low level election thugs for intimidation.

donjazet:
You confuse me. You're a strong advocate for the integration of our youth and still admonish the purchase of auxiliary players We don't play a system that uses a left-back, we have a vast array of talents who can effectively play the left wing-back role or who can grow into it. Why waste money buying another average defender?

LCB or DM also. I say why not. Remember we have UCL next season so a lot more matches. He can also allow you sell Cahill or Alonso if you wish.

Even if he park for bench the whole year, you can still sell him for nothing less than £10-£15m. It's a no brainer.

Wolves away in FA Cup

CONTEDDICTED:
Thoughts?

No point considering we hosted him in Stamford Bridge box last year and he chose Celtic.

I was hoping he would sign for us then but I can't stomach paying £40m for something that was free last summer. Even £20m is too much given Scottish league strikers are hit and miss. Some hit like Henrik Larsson, others miss like that Croatia striker for Everton wey I done forget him name.

The truth is that State board and Ministry of Education call meetings with these schools all the time, and the ministry themselves don't bother to turn up. Sometimes the ministry would not have paid for the venue for the meeting. The ministry would start asking the school reps to "remain on standby" all day like the reps have nothing better doing. Sometimes it would be a training session where the ministry has not organised venue. Finally when they get organised, some school reps would have left by then, the ministry would still contact those schools asking them to pay for "certificate of attendance". Is that an Education body you would take seriously?

This particular incident was not for a meeting with Wike personally, rather it was a meeting with the ministrt. The school proprietors thought it was just another unserious summons.

I'm a proud alumni of 3 of the schools on this list. Rivers Govt cannot cater for 1/10th of the students in these schools if they shut down so they should tread carefully.

2face should first return our yams given to him by David Mark and Akpabio before leading protest.

When Akpabio was sponsoring 2Babas wedding in Dubai and buying all sorts of cars for the bride and groom with AkwaIbom money, he didn't remember good governance then.

A40:
Even your initial claim of Carlo dominating possession has been rubbished

How has it been rubbished, by looking at big games only, the same big games in which Boateng has disgraced himself in 8 out of 10 matches?

raumdeuter:
When will you stop lying shamelessly

In 2009/2010 Atletico finished 9th in la Liga

The traditional big teams in England Arsenal Chelsea Man Utd and Liverpool at the time of Ancelotti he failed to deliver his possesion game vs them but he is now looking for atletico who finished 9th, Spurs and Bolton wanderers

According to you EPL is a top league, yet one of the most consistent top finishers in the EPL isnt enough competition for Bayern

In 2009/10, Atletico were in the UCL having finished top 4 in the best league Laliga. They were also Europa League Champions that season. If they are not considered big game, forget Arsenal.

Are any of Leverkusen and Schalke match for Chelsea whenever we face them in Europe? If Bundesliga is better than EPL, Schalke/Leverkusen should be equivalent to Arsenal.

Stop distracting from the main issue. Boateng is at 2/10 performance in playing highline in big games. Have you got to 70% yet to rescue his utterly abysmal record in what you define as highline matches?

raumdeuter:
Arsenal finished top 4 every season for over 10yrs in the EPL. If one of the most consistent EPL teams that has made top 4 consistently for 10yrs is not a top team then are you suggesting EPL is a useless league where a consistent top side shouldnt be reckoned with?

EPL is a rubbish league according to you so a 4th place team in that league cannot be better that Atletico who finished 4th in best league Laliga and were defending Europa Champions when Ancelotti played them. Neither does it make them bigger than Spurs who finished top 4 yet you ruled them out as big game for Ancelotti.

Keep counting by your stewpid definition of big game, then alert me when you reach 70% success rate for Boateng so I can sign him off as a successful highline defender. He is at 20% and the clock is ticking, so shoot!