₦airaland Forum

Delafruita: rather than spending millions yearly on "lets go a fishing",cant the church encourage the youths in their midst?cant they have a skill acquisition programme?cant they provide soft loans for the market women?

Then what will the government be doing??

Embessling public funds incessantly??

The whole of 9ja's problem rests on the government,,,

they'v become so useless that is why situations are like this..........

I'm not in support of d many parishes built just in one street...if d 9ja govt was working that wuldnt be the case.......

teminoni: The simple answer is, Jesus is Lord God, and can ascend into heaven in anyway he likes.

The average human uses only 3% of his/her brain. So how can u understand or explain God's actions? Impossible.

John 4:24......

Because GOD can do anything does not make him not organized or sticking to his principles.....

If Jesus is GOD and GOD is a spirit then what are we here talking about??

How can we now apply john 4:24 to Jesus if he is GOD??

Except he isn't actually....

lagerwhenindoubt: Not to seem disparaging of the Man Jesus (my favorite Bible personality of Social Dissidents after Samson ). from all indications and 3rd party reports, Jesus appeared (seemingly out of nowhere) to his disciples in a physical body that could be felt and interacted with, he indeed supped at some point and walked on physical surfaces. In other instances he prevented his followers from touching him, indicating that he could actually be felt physically if he did not prevent this touchy-touchy business. whether ethereal or corporeal substance, i cannot tell but from majority accounts, the later.

Back to your pointer - Did i hear some one say how come people were able to see him after his resurrection? it is a sharp departure from the point of whether he is physically in Heaven or not. From popular lore we can see Spirits and Humans can we not? The real question is whether Jesus was a Spirit with Physical Fleshly properties or a Human with Spiritual Characteristics (now you have messed-up my thinking )

I still ask myself how come Jesus culd pass thru thick wall......

I support d fact that Jesus was infact a spirit who culd materialize when ever he wanted for him to have been able to do all that.....

Flesh can't actually pass thru thick wall can it??

musKeeto: This is a disappointing response from you. Our society will remain as useless as it is today if we keep recruiting faith merchants rather than technocrats, establishing churches instead of businesses.
I strongly believe that if people support the ideas of young jobless Nigerian graduates as readily as they pay tithes and other offerings into the coffers of these modern megachurches, we would pray a lot less.

I knw it might sound a lil dis-appointing,but d true fact is there's notin much we can do for now....do u expect us to start desecrating the church buildings??noo......


My point is as long as they aint constituting to some kinda mayhem in the society then just let them be....

The real problem with 9ja is corruption....
The 9ja government has become so inept to solve d problems of joblessness.......

I for one do not really support the idea of a particular church having several parishes just in one street,because it definitly is absurd....

But what can 1 do?? Na 9ja we dey......

If they are not commiting crimes then leave them alone let them do there thing

Ubenedictus: he probably wasnt convinced of d truth he believed. After d final judgement some will be in heaven in a glorified body, so i dont find it hard to believe tha Jesus is in heaven with a glorified body.
Peace

What kind of body did Jesus have b4 his descending to the earth??

What kinda body do angels have??

What kinda body does Yahweh have??

What kinda body does d holy spirit have??

What does a glorified body actually mean??

How culd it be that Jesus culd pass thru walls to meet with his apostles in a locked room??

Ptolomeus: That god who destroys everything reminds me Javeh ... who demanded human sacrifice, sent plagues and ordered razing entire villages and kill ...
That (his god) is a vengeful god ... bad ... that kills its own children ...
I do not understand why then you criticize Obama ...
As you say, Obama is a faithful servant of this god ...

This is no sacrifice what not....

This is total annihilation my bro....

Human governments wiLl be wiped out by Jesus...

Read 1 corinthians 15:24......

Why??

Because these earthly kingdoms are of d devil the ruler and GOD of this world....

So obama already knows where he stands.....

lagerwhenindoubt: A valid question with greater implications on the popular perception/assumptions/claims on the existence and substance of Heaven.

Let us dwell on these Bible verses and validate them with Certainty or invalidate them with further counter-verses (and Faith obviously )

JESUS Proves you can go to Heaven with your earthly body




Enoch was a strange fella, apparently you can go to heaven without dying and without your physical body


From the above we can see that it is possible to get into "Heaven" (1st, 2nd, 3rd) without dying and with/without your earthly body, what gives?

How could enoch have gone to the heavens when Jesus who came from the heaven down to the earth confirmed that no one has ascended into heaven except the son of man who descended and that is to ascend back....

Read john 3:13

New International Version (NIV)
13 No one has ever gone into heaven except
the one who came from heaven —the Son of
Man.[a]

Those are Jesus's words......

It then means enoch didn't really go to the heavens which Jesus was residing b4 descending as the case mayb....

Enoch was just taken into the sky or atmosphere which culd as well be defined as heaven......

This whole madness has to stop....

I mean these are innocent persons being killed because of the 9ja governments ineptness....

People gather for worship and it becomes a crime in the eyes of bokoharam....SMH!!!!!

This really has to stop

@ola.....

I have told u a longtime ago to do a research on the greek and hebrew words used that is translated into english as the holy spirit.....

The hebrew and greek words in itself negates d fact of the holy spirit being a person.....


The hebrew and greek words that is translated to holy spirit shows that d holy spirit isn't a person to start with.....

The pagan dogma is making all this assumptions ..........

Go back to those words and analyze them.......

OLAADEGBU: Yes.



No, I have not changed. The Holy Spirit is a separate, distinct and recognisable Person.



God is not the author of confusion but of orderliness. The Godhead consists of three separate, distinct and recognisable personalities and qualities, perfectly united in one.

The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are different Persons in the Godhead, not merely three names for one Person as frosbel would like to believe. (See Matthew 3:16, 17; 2 Corinthians 13:14; Matthew 28:19,20) for confirmation.

http://www.dclm.org/AboutUs/WhatWeBelieve/TheGodHead/tabid/160/Default.aspx

Ur dis-agreeing with both me and frosbel....

u say GODhead like that word is the name of a person or like its d name of an individual....

wasn't Jesus part of a GODhead or the GODhead when he died??

Show me where it says the GODhead is made up of the Father, the son and d holy spirit....

U assumed that the GODhead comprised of those 3 entities,the bible didn't...

Don't u get it??

Ur making assumptions that even the bible which is GODs word never made....

Now that's d heresy we are talking about.....

Where in d bible did it say that the holy spirit is part of a GODhead??

And we then come back to frosbels point,altho funny.....

When u gaze into the sky how many persons do u see??

From the bible I usually see Yahweh and Jesus sitting down @ his right hand side...

Where is the 3rd entity to make up the GODhead as u claim??

Don't ever think these questions I'm asking are irrelevant.....they are infact pertinent into proving ur trinity claim.....

Where is the holy spirit??

The holy spirit is suppose to be in that GODhead set up there in the heavens....

But where is he or it??rather we see 2 persons.....

Daniel saw 2 persons,stephen b4 he was stoned saw 2 persons,john in his vision saw 2 persons,apostle in hebrews saw 2 persons.even david in his psalms talked about Jesus sitting @ his Fathers right hand....

But here we are hearing from trinitarians that there is 3rd person.....

Oya where is the 3rd person to fit into d equation,no where to be found.......

Ur assumptions on 3 persons making up a GODhead is false and a myth....

An egyptian myth....a pagan myth.......

OLAADEGBU: God is One consisting of three separate, distinct Persons.

Hehehehehehehehehe...

U see d confusion...

Walahi I bet that u and frosbell won't agree on this......

Its gonna be confusion all the way.....

So Jesus beind the son still doesn't make d Father greater than him.....meaning Jesus lied when he said d opposite of what ur saying....

And if u say Jesus wasn't created but was begotten,then I wonder from where Yahweh acquired Jesus...

Was Jesus in a market place as a commodity that was bought from an owner possesing Jesus or was he created or formed as those other translations put it??

U might complicate issues that might lead to questions that u urself will never find answers to.......

Like I said I will never open the NWT...and I'v never since this discussion started....

Which ever way u look @ it Yahweh still is greater than Jesus...

The one who begets must be greater than the begotten....

U are not equal with ur mum that begot u,are u??

For Yahweh to have have purchased or acquired Jesus if u stick to those 2 words it still proves the point that @ one time or the other Yahweh was there b4 Jesus.....

Jesus lives because Yahweh his source of life has kept him alive....
.....despite d fact u'v discarded the use of Gods name into the receptacle.....


U people have turned Gods omnipotence into myths, foolishness and some kinda mental disorder......

Mr_Anony: Please properly go through his write-up following it with the scripture he has presented and then show the faults in his theology based on that. So far, it appears to me that what you want is a battle of soundbites and that doesn't make for a robust discussion.

Ur bro said d bible assumes the trinity to be true....can u hear that??assume??
What am I doing with both of u....

D bible simply didn't speak of the trinity because it was man made.....

That's d answer.....

Go to ya history books.......

The scriptures he put up there can be debunked right about now.....

But what's d use,when d dogma trinity is sometin u were spoon fed with.....

Later u turn around to. Accuse d catholics of heresies......

Mr_Anony: @Ihedinobi: Quality Write-up brother!

..........but then I think you need to relax a bit. You are getting angry and it is beginning to show. NLers can really push a person's patience - I am not insensitive to that - but there is this thing we have that is called Longsuffering.

God bless.


(Note: I am not saying this because I am the perfect example of patience. Obviously I am not. But then, I've always admired you as the more patient of the two of us)

Quality gibberish he put up there.....

How won't u espouse him??

Wuld u have objected??

For some1 who just ngeated the principal of headship just to support a pagan dogma,u call his write up quality??

SMH!!!!!!......

Ihedinobi: As for a hierarchy in the Trinity, you are nuts, my friend. I spoke of a circle of love, not a ladder. When people are in a circle, you don't ask who is greater, stronger or higher than who. Jesus was in the flesh when He said that His Father was greater than Himself. He was also in the flesh when He said that He and His Father are one for which statement the Jews took up stones to kill Him justifying their action by saying that He made Himself equal to God.

There is no hierarchy in the Trinity. Love is a relationship of submission. The lover always serves the loved. And when the loved loves as well, service is mutual. The Lord of the Church washes the feet of the Church, dies for her, gains God's blessings for her. She also travails for His children, spreads His News, longs for His Day and prays for it. Is He greater or less? He is the same as much the same as your head = your body. What is your head without your body? Or your body without your head?

That is the last time I will deal with a foolish question from you, ijawkid.

So u mean 1 corinthians was talking about circles not a ladder not a strata??...

U can call me nuts but I can simply see the trinity has blurred ur vision......

Circles??

Now u got me laughing.........

Ur d 1st of trinitarians that has said this....

This ur love theory is so out of point.....

u have presumpteously negated the headship principle and ur here claiming ur right......

SMH......

ofcus I knew the trinity wuld and cannot measure up to that scripture.....

Ur explanation is complete rubbish.....

Go back and find a better explanation....don't act like u got it all right.......

That verse was written when Jesus had already ascended to the heavens.....so don't start giving me the ""Jesus was in body form"" crap......

Paul made that clear statement knowing fully well that our master had ascended to heaven........

Na wa for u o.........

Ihedinobi: As for a hierarchy in the Trinity, you are nuts, my friend. I spoke of a circle of love, not a ladder. When people are in a circle, you don't ask who is greater, stronger or higher than who. Jesus was in the flesh when He said that His Father was greater than Himself. He was also in the flesh when He said that He and His Father are one for which statement the Jews took up stones to kill Him justifying their action by saying that He made Himself equal to God.

There is no hierarchy in the Trinity. Love is a relationship of submission. The lover always serves the loved. And when the loved loves as well, service is mutual. The Lord of the Church washes the feet of the Church, dies for her, gains God's blessings for her. She also travails for His children, spreads His News, longs for His Day and prays for it. Is He greater or less? He is the same as much the same as your head = your body. What is your head without your body? Or your body without your head?

That is the last time I will deal with a foolish question from you, ijawkid.

U say my questions are foolish??

Thank u!!!!....

ur explanations on love shuld help u also answer if the almighty died.....

That shuldnt take u up to 10 seconds to give an answer,,,

U'v been all over d place saying Jesus is d same with the Father....aint it??

And just a simple straight forward question ur boiling with anger.........

I have stood to my stand that the son isn't the Father....

mind u I haven't denied the deity of Christ...

Look @ definition of deity....

de·i·ty
[dee-i-tee]

-n.,
1. a god or goddess.
2. divine character or nature, esp. that of the Supreme Being; divinity.
3. the estate or rank of a god: The king attained deity after his death.
4. a person or thing revered as a god or goddess: a society in which money is the only deity.
5. God; Supreme Being.

My cardinal point is Jesus isn't the same with the Father and that the Father is Jesus's GOd and greater than Jesus.....

That is what u guys have not being agreeing with.....

U and anony denied Jesus's subordinacy to the Father and it got me worked up..I confirmed that Jesus is Yahwehs slave and u guys turned a deaf ear to it......

U guys are blatantly refuting bible truths..

If u wanna get angry u can,but face facts and leave roman myths alone......

I said show me where d bible explicitly calls the holy spirit GOD and ur getting angry....

What more shuld I ask??I thought we were suppose to be opening d bible to prove important points........

How can a doctrine u so hold on to not be explicit in d bible and then u claim its impeccable....

Show me,show us.......

And do that with mild temper and lowliness of mind....

Thank you.....

Ihedinobi: . . .

Because He was God, He could bear it all and cancel it out with His Death. Justice would be satisfied and, because He was God, He would rise from Death which had no power over Him. I am describing things now from His Deity because that is what is in question. We know so much about His Humanity that it has become an either/or fight: either He was God or He was man/whatever-suits-our-frenzied-brains. The Gospel is that God became man to solve man's problem. On His Human side, Jesus was raised from the dead because He was sinless and therefore should not be held by the grave; on His Deity however, He rose from the dead because He was the Lord of Life and Death had no power over Him. There are no paradoxes here. Jesus was as much God as He was Man. As Man, God raised Him up but as God He was never under the power of Death. However, the key to the whole thing is that He never exercised His Deity in all the happenings there. It was the Other Two, the Eternal Spirit through Whom He offered Himself to God and the Father Who justified Him and raised Him from the Dead, that exercised Deity in the days of His flesh. He was no less God for not exercising His powers as God, just like we are not blind just because we closed our eyes.


THE CONCLUSION

I think that I've explained the Trinity as well as the Bible affords us knowledge of. But if I have been illogical or if there is any logical disagreement with my submissions, I am fully willing to answer to them. If I perceive emotional argument against this position without any serious logical problems presented, I will not tolerate it much. I do wish that such as lay claim to the Kingdom of Christ could at least pay heed to the Christ that they subscribe to and realize that the meaning of "Christ is come in the flesh" is that it was God Almighty Himself, the one True God, Who came, not some God by any Hebrew, Greek or Aramaic reading. The significance of that statement is that it was Someone Who was under no compulsion to come and Who could have exercised a different right (the destruction of an erring creation) that came. But if that significance is unrecognized, that will be the problem of the one who turns a blind eye to it. I shall not respond to any counters that are not based on logical difficulties.

Now ur whole essay begs the question we've been asking...

Did GOD almighty die??

Answer.....YES or NO.....

U just wrote a comprehension up there.......

Now answer the logical and truthful question....


Was d world devoid of the almighty when christ died??

So Jesus offered up himself to himself there in heaven and also sat down @ the right hand of himself??

the trinity has made u turn d bible into some fairy tale book.....

I'll ask again did the almighty die??
Can the almighty die??
Did the almighty not know the day he himself will destroy the earth??

Did the almighty also wait for some1 almightier than him to give him revelation as revelation 1:1 tells us??

u have written just a whole lot of comprehension with out addressing these pertinent questions......

And u still have not shown us where it says the holy spirit is GOD or is a GOD...

I'm still waiting....

I was reading in between lines to find that out,but still nothing......

Explicitly show us where d bible says that....

Even d bible was explicit to call satan the GOD of this world....

It was explicit to refer to humans as ELOHIM....

It was explicit to call Jesus Mighty GOD......

It was explicit to even call demons ELOHIM......

But the bible never attached that title theos,elohim,or the english term GOD to the holy spirit....not even once.....

The term ""God the holy spirit"" was an invention that its inventors can't find in d bible....

And then u come up here to write a whole lot of stuff not proving that fact.......

U can use all d cable illustrations,all d family illustrations,that won't manufacture scriptures to support ya notions....

I had asked u earlier where in the hierarchy of headship do we place d holy spirit @ 1 corinthians 11:3 I still haven't gotten an answer.....

I say it to ur face the holy spirit isn't a person and GOD.....

Show me in d bible where it says the holy spirit is GOD.....

As for Jesus's case it has been proved that he isn't the Father and that he aint equal to his Father.....for christ sake Jesus said it with his own mouth but u refute it.....

OLAADEGBU: To be an atheist is better than to belong to a false religion or cults because many atheists have open minds.

You say that Jesus is your Lord, is He your Saviour too? If so consider this verse that your folks have failed to respond to.

"You are my witnesses, says the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that you may know and believe me, and understand that I am He: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after Me. I, even I, am the LORD; and beside Me there is no saviour.," (Isaiah 43:10,11)

If you study this verse objectively, you will discover the following pointers:

There always has been and always will be only one true God.

There is no Saviour of the world except for this one true God.

Therefore, the Saviour of the world must be the one true God.

This leads to another question:

Is Jesus the Saviour of the world?

I do not think that anyone who has read the New Testament would dispute this. Even your NWT version of the Bible refers to Jesus as the Saviour: "and of the Saviour of us, Christ Jesus" --Titus 2:13.

Therefore, since:

The one true God is the only Saviour of the world (Isaiah 43:10,11), and

Jesus is the Saviour of the world (Titus 2:13; 2 Peter 1:1),

Jesus must therefore be the one true God.

To deny that Jesus is the one true God, one would either have to deny that Jesus is the Saviour, or say that God is lying to us in Isaiah 43:11. Neither alternative fits with Scripture.

Does Titus 2:13 teach that Jesus is God our Saviour?

In Titus 2:13 it states the following:

"Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify to Himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works."

Paul is here through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit stating clearly that it is Jesus who is our great God and Saviour.

QED.

In case u haven't read this scripture let me read it out from GODs word translation...
Mind u since we started this discussion the NWT has never crossed my mind....

1 corinthians 11:3
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
However, I want you to realize that Christ has
authority over every man, a husband has
authority over his wife, and God has authority
over Christ.


What don't u understand from this scripture ??

OLAADEGBU: To be an atheist is better than to belong to a false religion or cults because many atheists have open minds.

You say that Jesus is your Lord, is He your Saviour too? If so consider this verse that your folks have failed to respond to.

"You are my witnesses, says the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that you may know and believe me, and understand that I am He: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after Me. I, even I, am the LORD; and beside Me there is no saviour.," (Isaiah 43:10,11)

If you study this verse objectively, you will discover the following pointers:

There always has been and always will be only one true God.

There is no Saviour of the world except for this one true God.

Therefore, the Saviour of the world must be the one true God.

This leads to another question:

Is Jesus the Saviour of the world?

I do not think that anyone who has read the New Testament would dispute this. Even your NWT version of the Bible refers to Jesus as the Saviour: "and of the Saviour of us, Christ Jesus" --Titus 2:13.

Therefore, since:

The one true God is the only Saviour of the world (Isaiah 43:10,11), and

Jesus is the Saviour of the world (Titus 2:13; 2 Peter 1:1),

Jesus must therefore be the one true God.

To deny that Jesus is the one true God, one would either have to deny that Jesus is the Saviour, or say that God is lying to us in Isaiah 43:11. Neither alternative fits with Scripture.

Does Titus 2:13 teach that Jesus is God our Saviour?

In Titus 2:13 it states the following:

"Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify to Himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works."

Paul is here through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit stating clearly that it is Jesus who is our great God and Saviour.

QED.

U call the witnesses a cult??

No problem.....

but if u can't understand that Yahweh is Jesus's LORD and saviour then I don't know what to do with u.....

U fail to understand that these titles lord and saviour are just titles......

and which ever of it Jesus answers,Yahweh is d ultimate of it.....because he is LORD and GOD over Christ....

How don't u understand this baffles me......

Jesus is my saviour in that he died and is now mediating for me to get to Yahweh....

While Yahweh is d grander saviour in that he sent Jesus to come die for us.......

They are both saviours but one greater than the other......don't u get it??

Abraham was sarahs LORD,that didn't mean it stopped Yahweh from being sarahs LORD....did it??

When ever u play with titles u fail.....

Use names.......

What is d meaning of the word LORD??

lord
[lawrd]

-n.
1. a person who has authority, control, or power over others; a master, chief, or ruler.
2. a person who exercises authority from property rights; an owner of land, houses, etc.
3. a person who is a leader or has great influence in a chosen profession: the great lords of banking.
4. a feudal superior; the proprietor of a manor.
5. a titled nobleman or peer; a person whose ordinary appellation contains by courtesy the title Lord or some higher title.
6. the Lords Spiritual and Lords Temporal comprising the House of Lords.

.....

From those definitions both Jesus and his Father Yahweh are LORDS...but d question is
LORDS over whom or what??

1 corinthians gives u the answer but u keep running from pillar to post explaining what not....

1 corinthians 11:3 tells u Jesus has A LORD over him.......

Yahweh and Jesus can bear those titles Lord and Saviour........

It don't change a thing as to the fact that 1 is greater than d other....

So if I say Jesus is my master or LORD I'm correct according to 1 corinthians 11:3 and that doesn't contradict isaiah 43:11 that still speaks of Yahweh as savior and Lord.......

But the ball is in ur court to agree if Yahweh is Jesus's LORD.....

I don't have a problem.u got d problem......

Thanks

OLAADEGBU: When it says that Jesus was in the form of God it means that He was God from eternity who created all things and this is corroborated in John 1:1-3

Jesus Christ thought it not robbery to be equal with God means that He didn't cling to His deity as a robber will cling to its plunder. It means that despite the fact that He took up the outward form of a man it did not detract from His intrinsic deity.



If Charles T. Russel understood it he wouldn't have twisted it to mean something else and there wouldn't have been this many false religion and cults today. If you read further in John 17 that you quoted you will discover that Jesus Christ was with the Father before coming down to earth. He said:

"And now, O Father, glorify me with your own self with the glory which I had with you before the world was" (John 17:5).

You see here that Jesus Christ declared that He was with the Father before the world came into existence, and that the Father loved Him before the foundation of the world (vs 24). In John 1:1-3 as I earlier quoted you will see that Jesus Christ is the eternal Word through which the Father created the Cosmos but that He laid aside His glory temporary so as to finish God's work of the redeeming of His creation.



I hope you are not quoting from the dodgy NWT that has been twisted to deny the truth. Here is what the authorised version says:

"The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was" (Proverbs 8:22-23).

The word "Possessed" in verse 22 is the same word as "acquired". It means that the Lord Jesus Christ was not just the Son of God, but that He was the only begotten Son of God. It means that He was "in the beginning" with God as the gospel of John put it in (John 1:1-2), Simultaneously He is the only begotten, eternally proceeding from the Father



I have addressed this misconception of yours if you read earlier posts. The Father and Son are both referred to as the mighty God. (See Isaiah 1:24).

"Therefore saith the Lord, the LORD of hosts, the mighty One of Israel, Ah, I will ease me of mine adversaries, and avenge me of mine enemies." (Isaiah 1:24).

"But how his bow abode in strength, and the arms of his hands were made strong by the hands of the mighty God of Jacob . . . " (Genesis 49:24).

"Until I find a place for the LORD, an habitation for the mighty God of Jacob." (Psalm 132:5).

"For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regards not persons, nor takes reward" (Deuteronomy 10:17).

Who do you think is referred to as the mighty God here?



Can you answer this question? Is Jesus Christ your Lord and Saviour?

Which authorized version are u using??
That fell down from heaven??

Which??

Let's check other translations not even the NWT.....

New Living Translation (©2007)
"The LORD formed me from the beginning,
before he created anything else.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
“Lord Jehovah created me at the beginning of
his creation and from before all of his works.”

The hebrew word used was d same word used in genesis 4:1 when eve bore a child by the help of God.......

I believe we know eve existed b4 cain.....

Trinitarians always will never agree with this strong verse but it is what it is........

And can u please explain what u mean when u say Jesus christ is eternally proceeding from the Father??and show me where d bible makes such statement...??

And tell me how it is compatible with the word begotten......

Except the definition of the word beggoten has changed.......

According to the thesaurus dictionary beggoten is defined as::::

CREATE,BREED,BRING ABOUT,GENERATE,PRODUCE,REPRODUCE,SIRE,PRO CREATE,CAUSE.....

Jesus himself @ john 6:57 tells us who the owner of his life is and his life source....

New American Standard Bible (NASB)
57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live
because of the Father, so he who eats Me, he
also will live because of Me.

Jesus was caused by the Father which ever way u wanna look @ it.....

Jesus lives because of Yahweh......his lives are in Yahwehs hand.........

Keep reciting 1 corinthians 11:3 till u understand truths.....

I made a resolution years back that if I ever believed in the trinity dogma then I rather just become an atheist.....

There will be no need for me trying to prove what isn't there especially when I know when it all started.......

And again I will tell u to ur face that ofcus Jesus is my Lord...1 corinthians 8:5 $ 6 tells me that....but that same scripture also tells me who is Jesus's GOD and my GOD....(Yahweh).....

Mr_Anony: You have taken a multitude of jumps in your argument without following them through logically. The problem with a lot of people (and this includes you) is that they pick up a topic and then they approach the bible by pitting one verse against another verse so that which ever verses are more cancel out the other verses. That is how not to read scripture.
The scripture should be read with the understanding that the message is true. This way, whenever you come across apparent contradictions the aim should be how to reconcile them and not how to find other scripture to cancel out the ones you are not comfortable with, by doing this, you nullify the truth of the scripture and replace it with a doctrine invented by yourself.
You did not explain how else the Word and God can both be uncreated and still be One God (John 1:1). All you did was go around finding scripture where Jesus says the Father is greater than He. What you skipped was the part that tells us that the Son humbled Himself though being equal to God, He gave up His 'God privileges' so as to be manifest in the flesh.(Phil 2:5-10)

It is not a bible verse battle, but a study to find truth. You don't find truth by cutting out bits of the bible that you find uncomfortable.
It is not by how many verses you can spit but by how relevant they are to correctly defining the truth. Please don't turn the message of the gospel into another book of law where you go around seeking clauses in support of your argument.....

......The letter killeth but the Spirit giveth life

I aint cutting out truths my bro u are....

U 1st of all denied that Jesus isn't Yahwehs slave....

Then I quoted verses for u to read but still we are back @ where we started.....

If u claim I invented doctrines I wonder which 1 u didn't invent or rather which 1 u didn't pick from fellow inventors....

Already d topic under discussion was invented....

U know when and how.......

For u that know how to read d scriptures explain the ones I dropped to refute ur thoughts on this issue....

The scriptures are up there..... Please explain them......

U'll have to resort to using roman doctrines to support ur stand.........

I don't know if u've played mortal kombat b4....

There's a guy called noob saibot that has a kinda soul residing in him that runs out of him to fight or kombat his opponent b4 he engages in the actual fight...

I might say that's d kinda scenario ur defining GOD to be....

Gods omnipotence does not make him 1 suffering from bi-polar disorder......

He can't be talking to himself or degenerating himself to a lower person when he is still that same person...

That's not omnipotence....its a mental disorder........
soon u might also say the angels that are under Jesus's command,that he sends are Jesus himself that has divided himself into myriads of angels.....after all according to u that's what omnipotence means.......omnipotence can even mean we are GOD just in existing in the fleshy form....after all GOD is omnipotent and can be anything....





For example GOD cannot say he does not know when the world would come to an end but @ d same time know when it will end....


That's not omnipotence,that will be a mental disorder......

Your definition of omnipotence is not rational my bro.....

U are the 1 that needs to settle and re-examine ur doctrine to align it with all those scriptures I quote up there.......

The john 1:1 ur holding on to does not in any way negate d fact that Jesus didn't have a beginning......


the question u shuld be asking is which beginning........

I quoted 1 corinthians 8:5 $ 6 to show u d difference btw Yahweh and his son as regards if 1 was b4 the other bt u failed to see it.....

New International Version (©1984)
6.yet for us there is but one God, the Father,
FROM WHOM all things came and for whom we
live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ,
THROUGH WHOM all things came and through
whom we live.....

Have u sat down to analyze those 2 expressions. ""FROM WHOM"" and "" THROUGH WHOM""

I want ur explanation on it....

Secondly I quoted this scripture to support the 1 corinthians I just quoted...

John 6:57 which reads...

New International
Version (NIV)
57 Just as the living
Father sent me and I
live because of the
Father, so the one
who feeds on me will
live because of me.....

Jesus's existence lies on the Father his GOD...

Just as our existence as humans lie on feeding on Jesus......

I want u to extract my points.....

**##Jesus does have a life source,just as we humans do.....

That is why he could confidently and truthfully tell his disciples and d women who were present b4 his ascension @ john 20:17...

New International Version (©1984)
Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have
not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to
my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to
my Father and your Father, to my God and
your God.'"

##New Living Translation (©2007)
"Don't cling to me," Jesus said, "for I haven't
yet ascended to the Father. But go find my
brothers and tell them, 'I am ascending to my
Father and your Father, to my God and your
God.'"

##English Standard Version (©2001)
Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to me, for I
have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to
my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending
to my Father and your Father, to my God and
your God.’”


We all as humans including Jesus share d same GOD ,life giver and life source...

No other person than Yahweh.....

I leave u to ur pagan triangle formular......

Thanks.....

[quote author=Mr_Anony][/quote]Lol.....

Acts 3:13 and aslo isaiah calls Jesus the servant of Yahweh....
13 The God of Abraham, Isaac and
Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified
his servant Jesus. You handed him over to be
killed, and you disowned him before Pilate,
though he had decided to let him go

Acts 3:22-26 confirms Jesus as Yahwehs servant and prophet...

22 For Moses said, ‘The Lord your God will
raise up for you a prophet like me from among
your own people; you must listen to everything
he tells you. 23 Anyone who does not listen to
him will be completely cut off from their
people.’[a]
24 “Indeed, beginning with Samuel, all the
prophets who have spoken have foretold these
days. 25 And you are heirs of the prophets and
of the covenant God made with your fathers.
He said to Abraham, ‘Through your offspring
all peoples on earth will be blessed.’[b]
26 When God raised up his servant, he sent
him first to you to bless you by turning each of
you from your wicked ways.”


Can u beat that??

U'll have to be high on cocaine or some igbo to conclude Jesus is Yahweh.......:-)(joking)...

How wuld u explain 1 corinthians 11:3 to a rational thinking person ??

Jesus has a head and he is still that head??
Then mayb u shuld conclude that since Jesus is the head of man then man is Jesus....(or mayb u can find a trinity explanation to that clear verse)......besides I wonder who is head of the holy spirit....u culd assume that for urself mayb later....:-)

Peter nor any of the disciples who were Jews wuld believe in d trinity...ofcus they didn't.....because they knew who Jesus was(Yahwehs servant)

right now I bet the last title u can give to Jesus is ""servant of Yahweh""

But that is what Jesus was and is to Yahweh....

Jesus did not complain......infact Jesus as a faithful slave of Yahweh came to d earth to do not his own will,but the will of him that sent him(Yahweh)....why will Jesus not decide to do his own will if he was the same person as Yahweh u might ask??was Jesus drunk to have uttered those clear truths??

Even Jesus attested to the facts that d father was different and distict from him...

Jesus is not Yahweh.....and Yahweh is not Jesus......

Jesus expressed and manifested his Fathers qualities....that is why he is called the image of the invincible GOD and a prophet of Yahweh....even u shuld understand that...don't let d trinity blur ur scriptural understanding.....

Its a fact that the almighty cannot be seen or touched physically nor die....

But all that happened in the case of Jesus....

Mr anony let us face facts and live the trinity myth founded by constantine.....

Yahweh and his son are 2 different individuals........

1 is greater than the other......(Jesus said that with his own mouth o)....

1 is better than the other(Jesus also said that with his own mouth when he told some1 that no one is good,except one(Yahweh).....

there is this scripture I have been quoting and u and all of ur kind have never come out to explain for everybody to see the folly of this man made dogma called the trinity.....

1 corinthians 15:24-28.............
It reads from the international standard version...

24Then
the end will come, when after he has done
away with every ruler and every authority and
power, the Messiah hands over the kingdom
to God the Father. 25For he must rule until
God puts all the Messiah’s[m] enemies under
his feet. 26The last enemy to be done away
with is death, 27for “God has put
everything under his feet.” Now when he
says, “Everything has been put under him,” this
clearly excludes the one who put everything
under him. 28But when everything has been
put under him, then the Son himself will also
become subject to the one who put everything
under him, so that God may be all in all.
.
....

Those verses are always my last quote to trinitarians,modalists and what ever sort of doctrine any1 might hold that supports Jesus being the same as the Father or Jesus equal to the Father or Jesus being Yahweh......



U can go ruminate on those verses for as long as u can.......

Ask urself pertinent questions regarding Jesus's power and kingship, if it is limited or if he infact received it.....because ofcus if Jesus was Yahweh himself what d apostle paul wrote there that will happen in the end would be useless and false.....

There emphatically says that when it says"" all things have been subjected to him it is with the exception of the one who subjected all things under his feet(Jesus feet)..

Who is the one been excepted that is doing the giving and the one that all things were subjected to and on the recieveing end??

Are they one and d same person??

.....
Ask urself the same questions I've been asking since d beginning of this discuss......

U can also go back and analyze what happened @ the council of NICEA and how it has affected ur view as regards the son and the Father(I even wonder why one is the Father and the other the son if they are one and d same)

Or u can stick to ur own facts......


This is my last comment on this particular topic......

Thank u mr anony......

cyrexx: i'm not biased and i dont hate god, (pls stop saying that about me), the same way i dont hate santa claus. what i am against is religion because religions exists while god does not exist?

comprende?



We would think that the teachings of a "son of God" should at least be coherent, consistent and with flawless moral. Well, the teachings of Jesus are none of these things.
The morality of Jesus teachings is at best ambigous. Jesus is both tolerant and categorically intolerant in his teachings. Sometimes he shows signs of social consciousness; sometimes he is completely without such. Sometimes he reacts like a furious four-year-old when he does not get things his way, (ex: the fig tree story (Mt. 21:18-19, Mk 11:12-14.)), he renounce his closest relatives (Mt. 12:46-50; Mk 3:31-35; Luke 8:19-21.) and he constantly threaten people with eternal torture in hell. To threaten people with eternal burning in hell for not believing in him as the true son of God, is not a particular ethical thing to do by any standard.

He tells his disciples to turn the other cheek, but he also tells them to slay his enemies before him. (Luke 19:27). He says, "Judge not, that ye be not judged" (Mt. 7:1) but Jesus himself judge all his opponents and enemies (usually to eternal torture in Hell) all the time. "He that is not with me is against me" (Mt. 12:30).


He says "…but whosoever shall say, Thou fool [to his brother], shall be in danger of hell fire. (Mt. 5:22), but then Jesus himself calls people "Fool" on several occasions (Mt 23:17, Luke 11:40; 24:25).


check out this video


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7UImBPq4WI

So from ur points raised how did all that make Jesus a problem to isreal as a nation back then.....

How could the reactions of Jesus constituted to the problems of any nation..??

All Jesus did was preach love....he even healed and raised up people from d dead...fed thousands.......

He never took sides in wars,,.....

How can u tell me if I imitate that kind of person I won't make 9ja a good place.....

God and his son aren't d problems of 9ja like I told u,corrupt humans are.....

......

I could still explain all of Jesus's words and actions u quoted up there one by one only if ur not gonna be blind to the truth....

Thanks.....

Mr_Anony: That is the point of all I have been saying: The two persons are One God. Jesus is referred to as the Word who is God and was in the beginning with God. The same Word (God) became flesh and walked among us.

How can Jesus be with himself??is it necessary??

How can u be with your self??

John calls Jesus d image of the invincible GOD........

John is and was talking about 2 distinct individuals........


You cannot see Yahweh....no one can see the almighty @ anytime and live.....

For the Fact people saw Jesus only shows he isn't d same with Yahweh...........

Jesus was Gods representative and prophet and servant.......

Yahweh and Jesus are 2 different individuals.......

Jesus sef talk am oooooooo.....

@ anony from 1 corinthians 8:5 $ 6.....

Can u conclude that Yahweh and Jesus are 1 and d same GOD??........

You are toeing along the modalism doctrine if I have to remind u.....

Ur no longer on the trinity part that says Yahweh,Jesus and d holy spirit are 3 distinct,seperate persons.....

You're moving off that track....come back,,,,,,

Mr_Anony: From John 1:1, the only way that verse can make sense with the rest of scripture is this: We have one God who is both the Father and the Son...and might I add the Holy Spirit (though he isn't specifically mentioned here)

I'll quote myself yet again. Please read and pay careful attention this time:-

Lol......

So john 1:1 is now that Jesus is both the Father and Jesus himself?? Abi??

U also included the holy spirit just to add up to make the trinity formular....

If u remember we had been asking where d bible explicitly calls the holy spirit GOD.....

@ least Jesus was described as a GOD or GOD...

In the case of the holy spirit I'm yet to see.....let's not worry about the holy spirits case for now,until u find that scripture that says the holy spirit is GOD..

...

Your assumption as to john 1:1 can easily be debunked.....don't let an atheist or a muslim meet up with that ur assumption....its gonna be debunking all the way....

From ur exegesis of john 1:1 we can actually then say that Yahweh and Jesus are not 2 seperate persons,which then takes us to the MODALISM doctrine..(A doctrine different from the trinity).....

From ur exegesis we can then start asking the same questions muslims always ask trinitarians.....

1.....Yahweh(Father) died.....and d heavens was devoid of the almighty GOD.....meanwhile as we know Yahweh cannot die for any reason..if that happens then he stops being the almighty GOD
2...When Jesus prayed,he was praying to himself(that would be tantamont to some1 suffering from schizophrenia since he was Yahweh himself)..
3...@ 1 corinthians 15:24,27 $ 28 Jesus handed over the kingdom that was given to him by himself back to himself.....
4.....Mary is the mother of Yahweh....

I'm not done YET........u can continue to fill in the blank space.....

As for the problem with the word ""I AM"" I had earlier in another post clarified olaadegbu on that......

If u hold on to I AM as meaning Jesus is Yahweh,we will also end up in wahala trying to explain other scriptures.........

Why don't u find out what Jesus meant when he said b4 Abraham was "". I AM"" so that u can balance bible truths....

The trinity doctrine has dragged many to think only in the line that Jesus saying those words meant he was Yahweh......

Then the question comes::::

Was I AM the Fathers name or is it the meaning of the word Yahweh??

Let's analyze that word I AM....

U'll start....

Mr_Anony: Perhaps you can define for us exactly who God is and clear up this whole situation

Ok definition....

God
[god]

-n.
1. the one Supreme Being, the creator and ruler of the universe.
2. the Supreme Being considered with reference to a particular attribute: the God of Islam.
3. one of several deities, esp. a male deity, presiding over some portion of worldly affairs.
4. a supreme being according to some particular conception: the god of mercy.
5. the Supreme Being, understood as Life, Truth, Love, Mind, Soul, Spirit, Principle.
6. an image of a deity; an idol.
7. any deified person or object.


Those are all definitions of GOD or a GOD....

The bible itself also gave various definitions of that word ""GOD"

From the bible the word GOD can mean,a powerful king or ruler or JUDGE...it could also represent any powerful spirit creature,both angels ,Jesus and even Yahweh......even satan too and all his demons....

Now back to my question......

How many GODS were mentioned there in JOHN 1:1....

In the beginning was the word,and the word was with GOD(1st GOD) and the word. Who was with GOD( 1st GOD) was GOD(2nd GOD) ..........

How many GODS do we worship??.....

I knw u aint no polytheist so I will wanna hear ur reply as regards john 1:1........

I jus wanna let u know why GOD isn't anybody's name and why context should help us decipher who really is the supreme being we are referring to.......

Also compare john 1:1 and 1 corinthians 8:5 $ 6 and tell me which GOD in john 1:1 is the supreme GOD that deserves our exclusive devotion and by.......


##5 For although there may be so-called gods in
heaven or on earth—as indeed there are many
“gods” and many “lords”— 6 yet for us there is
one God, the Father, from whom are all things
and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus
Christ, through whom are all things and through
whom we exist.


The only. One GOD as mentioned by paul there is associated with the Father from whom all things came...

I keep wondering why Jesus shuldnt be called GOD there in that verse,rather he was called Lord through whom all things came...


But more importantly,concentrate on that john 1:1 and tell me how many GODs are there.....

Thank u!!!!

cyrexx: religion brought us the Gods and each of those religions thought they are the true religion.

so it is still true and valid that God/religion must be deported out of Nigeria.

comprende, monsieur?

I'm speaking from d christian point of view....

I want u to enumerate how following Jesus Christs words has added problem to 9ja??

Please tell me how if by following Jesus Christ foot steps can add 1 bit of a problem to 9ja......

Don't be biased with d whole I hate GOD or I don't believe in GOD issue....

Tell me

Mr_Anony: The Word who is God (John 1:1)

What does the word GOD mean??

John 1:1 says the word was with GOD.....

How many GODs do we have from that john 1:1??

I have always said we shuld read contextually if not we'll run into serious problems.....

If u cannot understand that GOD is nobody's name then we'll conclude that john 1:1 was talking about 2 GODs not 1 GOD manifested in 3 or 2 personalities.......

And we both agree that u don't support polytheism.......

So I'll ask u what is GOD??

The word(God) was with another GOD in the beginning.........

So how many GODs??

I think ona wan JESUS play??

Something dey worry ona head this morning.....

Bunch of juveniles.........

musKeeto: Here's my take:

First we need to understand that RELIGION and POLITICS have been bedfellows in Nigeria..

God doesn't care about Nigeria or any nation, to be honest. It's time we leave him (if he exists) to manage the duties of heaven, while we manage our earthly duties...

Because people aren't educated enough, because of the poverty that is rife in the nation, RELIGION will continue to be a stronghold in this country.

And the evil politiffians/prosperity pastors are well aware of this: a man pushed to the wall and hungry(not hungry because he's missed one of his three-square meals, but hungry cos he needs food to survive) is broken down and will appreciate a drop of water, even if it were possible for him through patience, to get a bucketful..

Their tools: ethnic bigotry and religious divisions. These, like all other tags, are all illusions.. WE ARE ALL HUMANS.. WE ALL HAVE THE SAME NEEDS AND EMOTIONS..

To deport God( or religion in its crass form), the proliferation of REASON and LOGIC is required in our society....

GOD is not d problem....false religion is d problem.....and corruption.........