₦airaland Forum

frank317:
whatever your own definition of perfection is... mine is what is in the dictionary. Anything you read there is my definition of perfect.

The only thing that can make a person good is his deed.

Why do you think humans cannot be perfect? You forgot to answer that. From the dictionary,
- To be perfect is to be without fault or without error. The real question is before who, as beauty is largely in the eye of the beholder. A man may look at an incidence or an act by his wife/child and see no fault in it, while someone else might look at the same act and be unhappy with it. In the sight of God, one can be without fault or error, made clean by the blood of the Lamb.
- To be perfect is to be complete and whole, and believers are complete in Christ.
1Co 2:6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to naught:
- To be perfect is to be excellent or ideal. The ideal thing needed to please God is faith, so faith puts you in line for perfection before God. You please God by faith.
- To be perfect is to be especially suitable or exact. When you do what exactly is required by God or suitable to God, you are perfect.
Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Your deed does not make you good, it simply remains a good deed. For instance, respecting your parents is a good thing/deed. Is Idi Amin(or whoever you think as evil) good because he respects his parents, despite his despotism?

dalaman:
You still haven't shown us how the God you believe in is good. What do you mean when you say god is good? Can your God's goodness be tested? If yes, how? If no, then why do you keep spewing that rhetoric? What does it mean to be good?

Why do you think humans cannot be perfect? You forgot to answer that. God is good because He is the definition of good, it is like asking why the letter A is 'A'. God is good and anything ungodly is not good. It is now apart from that NATURE of God that we can look at the deeds of God and still say He is good, everything that good is is in God and approved by God. So, when we say God is good, it is His nature and character, and then His deeds. Can God's goodness be tested, i suppose so. What are the parameters you use to test good? God is the definition and standard of what good is. He is the plumb rule as it were, we measure everything against Him as it were. To be good is to be what God wants you to be, to be suitable to God.

frank317:
no human is perfect and because you are human, i know you are not and can never be perfect.

Yes, i say no one is perfect but i know people can be good. being good does not equate being perfect. Your Bible says no one is good, it lied, i have seen so many good people.

Why do you think no human is perfect? Where is your proof? People can be good and do good deeds, that i am consistently saying. But no one is good in the context of religion and of the OP. That people do good deeds does not mean that they are good. BTW, are you good? There are criminals that do good deeds, there are people that are good at home or to their families and friends, but evil at other places. While their families and friends may think them good, the overall shows they are not good.
Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

frank317:
no human is perfect and because you are human, i know you are not and can never be perfect.

Yes, i say no one is perfect but i know people can be good. being good does not equate being perfect. Your Bible says no one is good, it lied, i have seen so many good people.

Why do you think humans cannot be perfect? Unfortunately though, your definition of perfection is just not mine, but i will still bother. People can do good deeds, but it does not make them good.

dalaman:
Same empty rhetoric. Goodness is determined by humans. Reality shows that goodness and morality evolves. Was it not the God of the bible that was telling people to stone enslave others as a good thing. is slavery a good thing? Even the bible moral principles have changed from the old testament to the new testament.

You seem to be totally missing what i am saying. i am not saying that goodness is not being determined by humans, of course we have laws and constitutions. i am saying that goodness(to be more precise, morality) should be and has been determined by God. Your thinking and context is flawed when you say that God was telling people to stone enslave others. Those are not moral principles, kind of punishment is not moral principle. The morality is do not steal, do not kill, do not lie etc. The punishment is not the morality or the moral principle. God still stands and says today do not steal, do not kill, do not lie etc. The punishment varies now. In different societies, there are different punishments for murder or for theft. Jail term is not a good thing, you don't call it a moral principle. That is punishment. Going to jail, execution, hanging, firing squad, electrocution etc are different punishments used today by different constitutions and societies. God wasn't telling people to stone enslave others as a good thing. Israelites were not busy stoning their neighbour gentiles or enslaving them to be moral. You are painting it that way. The Bible moral principles remain the same. The introduction of grace and the deluge of mercy and forgiveness does not remove the fact that sin is still sin, immorality is still immorality, good is still good and evil is still evil. Don't mix up things.

More empty rhetoric that addresses nothing completely.

You seem to be new to that phrase so you are enjoying it. i won't kill your joy, enjoy but remember to learn.

1. Women are not supposed to teach men in church or usurp their authority. Men are more valuable than women and men are head of the women. It goes to say that the woman was created for the man.

"Ephesians 5 22Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord. 23For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body. 24But as the church is subject to Christ, so also the wives ought to be to their husbands in everything"

Most western societies that believe in the bible have long discarded that principle. They find it offensive when you claim that the man is the head of the woman or that women need to be submissive to men. That is considered as sexism. Gender equality is what is prevalent in most western societies including those that are christain.

2. Jesus advocates that people should be passive.

If someone slaps you on one cheek, turn to them the other also. If someone takes your coat, do not withhold your shirt from them.

Most Christians have discarded this moral teaching. Non that I know abides by it any where.

3. Believers are not to take each other to court but they are to go to the church to settle their differences. Again most Christians have discarded that moral teaching. (1 Corinthians 6)

Oh i now understand better the sense you meant to convey, thanks. The moral injunctions and principles written inside the bible remain what they are. That people are disobedient to them does not remove from the fact that they are still the right thing and the standard to follow. The Bible verses and instances you quoted remain correct in their proper context. i think i would be derailing the thread by going deep into clarifications but you may open up another avenue or thread for that if you wish.

There are no moral absolutes in the real world. Forget about the world of religion and it's unverifiable claims and stories, in the real world there are no moral absolutes. People do not all have the same standard of goodness. Go to India, Saudi Arabia, Israel and USA all have very different standard of what is good and bad. No moral absolutes anywhere in the world.

There are moral absolutes in God. i do not deny what is happening in the world, rather i advocate what ought to be.

The bible is filled with verse where God told people to kill others because they worship other Gods. You have no feet to stand on here.

If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12)

No, you are wrong and your comprehension is faulty here. They were not killing others because they worship other Gods. They had neighbouring countries, philistines, assyrians, syrians, egyptians, babylonians etc who were worshipping other gods. Israelites were not going about killing them for that purpose. The command was based on the premise because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God. And that "he" is an Israelite, a fellow jew, who under their law and agreement/covenant/testament was to serve God.
Exo 19:8 And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.
Jos 1:16 And they answered Joshua, saying, All that thou commandest us we will do, and whithersoever thou sendest us, we will go.
Jos 24:24 And the people said unto Joshua, The LORD our God will we serve, and his voice will we obey.
Exo 24:3 And Moses came and told the people all the words of the LORD, and all the judgments: and all the people answered with one voice, and said, All the words which the LORD hath said will we do.
Neh 10:29 They cleaved to their brethren, their nobles, and entered into a curse, and into an oath, to walk in God's law, which was given by Moses the servant of God, and to observe and do all the commandments of the LORD our Lord, and his judgments and his statutes;

Which God gave them laws? Where you there? Why believe that God gave the Israelites laws and not the Muslims and Hindus that make the same claim as well?

You have a problem of believing what you perceive to be the bad part of the Word of God but you disbelieve the other parts. Now you asking which god, you who just asserted that God commanded people to go and kill others. you just tried to prove that God has changed and that God is immoral. And then in the same breath, you are asking "which God". Fortunately for us, i do not disbelieve the muslims or the hindus. i have simply found a better God, the living God.

frank317:
My friend is good, but I am not. You are not perfect... Don't know if you are good though.

You can peel of your knees praying all your life.... You will never attain perfection. As usual... You and your God will fail once again.

You say "no one is perfect", i say and my Bible says "no one is good". You somehow think it is okay for no one to be perfect, but not okay for no one to be good. There is yet a problem i have with every man being his own moral law giver. On what basis is it okay for no one to be perfect? Why do you think i am not perfect?

frank317:
You are perfect? See your mouth like perfect.

Your God has been making man perfect since 2000years ago, I am yet to see one perfect person. As usual, he goes into another failed venture just like he did with the angel, Adams and eve, destruction of earth with water and killing of his son.

I am not going into any definition of terms with you. If you don't know what it means to be good or what perfection is, then you shouldnt be here in the first place.

And yes my friend might not be perfect, but he is good. I am yet to even see a Christian as Good as he is, so go tell your own God to try harder.

You are an ignorant man and you just confirmed it by your post. Like i said, i do not expect us to share the same definition of "perfect". Your assumptions/allegations about God are wrong and a figment of faulty imagination. Your friend is not good, neither are you. i may not deny that he has done some good deeds however.

johnydon22:
And i dont see why you would want to affiliate empathy which i pointed out as the source of human morality to a deity, thats a very big fallacy.

I have mentioned it times without number, our empathy stems from our intellect.

I dont see why you cannot view empathy independent of any deity or gods.

By contrasting our feelings to others.

You wouldn't steal cus you know it would hurt the victim.

Honestly i feel no more need to be repeating this stuffs again... am done sir

Empathy does not stem from intellect. They are two different things though both function in the mind. Empathy can be very fickle and changing, unlike intellect. Someone with great intellect has great intellect simple. But empathy is different. Two intellectuals may share different and divergent empathies. One person can even have different empathy depending on time and circumstance. Intellect is not that fickle. There are brilliant criminals, and intellectual despots, your empathy is not determined by how intellectual you are. Emotion and love and empathy anybody can have and display. they are not necessarily a result of careful thought or intelligence. You do not see stealing as a good thing, some people see it as fun, or as a job or even as a way of life. Maybe you do not like abortion, some people have no problem with it, in fact they have reasonable arguments for it. Maybe you do not like or feel good about boko haram or isis. There are people who see absolutely nothing wrong with it. There are people who preach it and think it is the moral thing to do. Everybody is not like you, not everybody shares your worldview as much as you might want it so. That is why it is pertinent to have ONE moral law giver, which we preach to be God.

frank317:
Yes, my Muslim friend is not perfect... How is that an issue? Are we talking of perfection? And we talking about degree of goodness? What the hell do you mean by: he is 'not good enough'? OK you now acccept he is good but not good enough?

BTW since you believe in Yahweh... Are you now perfect? If not... Why ask if another is perfect even when its not what the Op is talking about?

Upon all your noise and believe in God you are still neither good nor perfect.

Hehehehe, your muslim friend is not perfect, that is the main issue. Doing good is not rocket science. i have said that doing good is not what makes us good. The expectation is perfection.
Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Phi 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

i am perfect. Of course i expect that as we share differing definitions for "good", we will also share differing definitions for "perfect". It goes without saying that only God can make one perfect. Nobody is good except God. God made man good but he fell long time ago. Today, God makes man perfect. Your good deeds are simply not good enough. Of course, i am not saying that one should not do good works. In fact, God's work in us empowers us to do good works. i say it in all humility that not only does God make me perfect, unbelievers do not surpass me in good deeds, neither am i good for nothing.

dalaman:
Goodness is determined by which God? Allah, Brahma, Yahweh, Rah Amun? Which God exactly because we know that goodness and morality as a whole has been shown to have evolved over time among the human race. Conquered races take up the culture of their masters. You are yet to show how God alone has determined what goodness is why it is true. Many moral injunctionss and principles written inside the bible are considered to be bad in many societies including christian societies. There are no moral absolutes in this world. Societies through various leaders (political and religious )determine what is right or wrong. No God has ever been shown to give any law to any society rather people make laws for themselves and use their various ideas amd concept of God and government as an enforcing mechanism. Goodness is a creation of men it has nothing to do with God Since there are many different Gods each with different concept of goodness.

Goodness is determined by the Living God, find Him. So to you, goodness and morality evolves? Well to my God, it is the same to a large extent. The contents of the Bible remain unchanged and unrevised.
Psa 119:89 Forever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.

Anything that is truly goodness has already been determined by God and is seen in the Bible or alluded to. Also, the fellowship of God's Spirit tally with and reinforce to the individual worshipper, the fact that God has set the world in our hearts and determined what is good and best for us. What moral injunctionss and principles written inside the bible are considered to be bad in many societies including christian societies. Kindly mention three? There are moral absolutes in God. Only folks who do not know God will say that there are no moral absolutes. So that tomorrow, if the society evolves to nudity for instance, they are okay with it. What you are saying is what i have being telling johnydon22 so that he can tell us his own version of morality instead of vaguely implying that everybody has the same standard of what good is. So in some places in Nigeria and Egypt, some leaders are bringing some humans to think that it is good to blow up themselves and kill people because they belong to another religion. Imagine if all religions and irreligions are that way, thinking/feeling it good to kill people that are not on their side. That is chaos, not morality. This is why it is important to have one standard, an higher umpire and moral law giver.
i believe and the Israelites believe that God gave them laws. You do not have all the knowledge and facts as to just say otherwise. i cannot take your word by faith, i'd rather take the words of the Bible by faith instead. So, if you have anything significant to say, you say it with facts and evidence. We are the believers, not you.

Acekidc4:
An Article laments the decline of Civility in some Parts of the world including Nigeria where Manners were once Considered an Important Cultural Marker.

Now My people; Tell us how you'd Define "GOOD MANNERS." Is it knowing proper etiquette when you're in a Restuarant?

OR

Saying "Please" and "Thank you."?

OR

Being Kind and Thoughtful of Others?

Manner is simply a way something is done. So something can be done well or not done well. Something can be done good or not done good. This is basically what good manner or bad manner is about. Since people are different, and societies are different, and cultures are different, it follows that the way or manners things are done would be different. Good manners could be relative and culturally diverse. This is because humans are diverse. What we promote more should be harmony, not necessary same manners. Because everybody simply cannot do things the same way. We have that free will and God to a large extent permits and orchestrates the beauty of the variety. The Bible encourages us to have good manners, and the three examples you the OP have listed are good manners. To a large extent, the christian view point concerning manners is to behave as a roman when in rome.
1Co 10:32 Give none offense, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:
1Pe 3:8 Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous:
Rom 13:7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor.
Rom 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

A normal person therefore is encouraged to try to know what is obtainable in the environment and adjust, ESPECIALLY as it does not contradict God's Word. God gives that liberty.

(2)How would you Rate your own Manners? Do you think you have good manners yourself?

Many times, i think i am not as thankful as i ought to be. Manners around where i stay are along the lines of being quick to say SORRY, THANK YOU and PLEASE.
Isa 1:17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.

i think i'm trying with the others, but i leave in a community where i sometimes wonder if i can cope with their level of thankfulness. But i am trying and learning. If someone helps you or does something you would perhaps take for granted, especially someone older, you will say thank you. Then the next day again, you will remember to say thanks for yesterday .

(3)Do you think our Society in General is becoming less Civil and More Rude? Why or Why Not?

Sukkot, Johnydon22, Ifeness, Image123, Truthman, Cold, Hiswordxray, Kay17, Malvisguy212, Tallesty, Pastorkun.!!! Come Oh!!

Yes, i think the society is removing the fine line and the boundary. So that, being mannerless is being more projected in the media and people are adapting to that. The manners that are common nowadays are borne out of eye-service, sycophancy, and selfish intent and interest.

zinaLPF:
That is not quite how fiscal budgeting works - the fact that this money is "saved", does not equate to a surplus. It simply means that is N2B that does not have to be spent. Reality is that the funds were probably never available as Nigeria has been robbing Peter to pay Paul in this era of our single product economy (OIL).

Let me explain with an everyday analogy:
Wazobia earns N100,000 annually. Wazobia has his eyes on a Toyota Camry at the car dealer next door. The Camry costs N500,000. Wazobia places the Camry on his "budget" every year, believing like the man of God (Daddy G.O.) says, that this blessing shall be his! 2 years go by, Wazobia still has not been able to save a penny because his yearly expenses are N120,000! He is barely making it, and has had to borrow money from Iya Ijebu (IMF) and Malam Nasiru to meet up. (Lets not talk about the time he stole N2000 from madams wallet when she was making eyes at Oga's best friend.)

One day, as Wazobia is walking home (trekking, because he cannot afford keke napep), he sees that the Camry is gone! "Kai!" Wazobia says, "someone has stolen my blessing! Diaris God oh!!" He goes home that evening and with a heavy heart (full of curses for that thief of blessings), he strikes the Camry off his budget.

Fact: 1. Wazobia is NOT N500,000 richer suddenly. 2. That is N500,000 he does not have to worry about borrowing / stealing / re-allocating to spend. 3. Wazobia, clearly an irresponsible dreamer, will probably just replace the Camry with another unrealistic item on his "budget".

Comprende?

i do not comprehend. In reality, the FG has been paying/affording these ghost workers salaries for years. They had it calculated in the budget, and if not for the said new technology magic, they would have paid it without delay. In fact, the delay in salary payment was said to be due to this good news. What happened to our federal reserves and why have we not been saving for the rainy day? NOI told us that they had everything in place even if crude barrel prices were to fall to $65 or so. Why then are we borrowing like we are poor. What happened to our large economy, rebasing and our oil money. What happened to our federal reserves and other accounts? What happened to our Sovereign wealth funds, and to the increase in revenue the government had by reducing subsidy. At least, we did not get the palliatives promised, so where is the money? Most of the present governments so called achievements are on borrowed money from China and co that another generation will have to pay for. What happened to the moneys from MDG and other monies sent to Africa to help us? Help me to comprehend please.

neoapocalypse:
Says who ? your Bible ?

Ultimately a man can not be judged to be good in all ramifications , while one is hard working , helps people in need , takes care of his family , he still might be cheating on his wife with another woman , elsewhere and in other religions this might not even qualify to be bad. We know good from bad by instinct and not by any sacred book

Yes oh, my Bible. Abi i should listen to you instead?

frank317:
No my Muslim friend is not perfect. Do you know of any perfect christian? What has perfection got to do with this?

You see your life? Even you confess that your Muslim friend is not perfect. Nobody is perfect by himself, all have sinned and come/fall short of God's glory. As nice as your friend is, he is not good enough. BTW, believing in my God is not what makes anyone good enough.
Jam 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

donbenie:
You're prattling,if you don't have anything intelligent to say,quite repeating cra.p..

Okay, i am prattling, you that you are more mature and knowledgeable, please define goodness and help me. Is this not what we are talking about? Now, you will claim you are good, and that you help others, but you see someone behaving childish and you cannot help him. Help me, what is goodness' sake?

dalaman:
How and why is goodness determined only by God? demonstrate to me with clear examples what it means to be good only because it takes God to be good. Why can't a person be good without God? How is God good and what makes goodness to exist only because of God?

Goodness is determined ONLY by God because truth and goodness is absolute. Even in our world, we try to get just one body to approve or standardize things. That way there is no or less chaos. If everybody is determining what is good, there will be chaos, because your definition of good may not be my definition of good. There has to be a higher appeal/authority, what we call a moral law giver.
If i am brilliant, and i attend classes, buy textbooks, read and study etc. At one point in Nigeria, i need to get a form from WAEC to write my school leaving certification examinations. In this case, WAEC is the higher authority, the approved body as it were. i cannot just say i am brilliant and i know it all and not register under WAEC. Even if i know the exam dates, come for the exams, write the exams etc, i do not get anything because all my over sabi is not under authority. Even someone not as brilliant or good as i am will have certificate while i do not have. Why? Because he registered, i did not. God is good because He created good, and has commanded everything that is good. His good is the certified good as it were, all other good is counterfeit waste.

johnydon22:
Seriously i wonder how you still manage to ask such questions after all the replies you have gotten so far.. So believing in a deity is an automatic ticket to being good right? Because boko haram, isis believe in allah they are automatically good right? because the christian crusaders believed in yahweh they are automatically good... hmmm now thats a shallow criteria for being good... I have told you before our intellect directs our thinking and our empathy directs our action... Only ur good deeds can make you good and only ur bad deeds can make you bad.

Stop second-guessing me, you insult me that way because you do not know me. you only think you do. Simply tell how you arrive at your conclusions. We cannot just take your word for it, or are you God? For instance, why do you think that believing in God or not does not make you good, or that your behaviour makes you good? How do you conclude that?
Like i said, do not second-guess me. i never said believing in God automatically makes you good, so do not put that on me. The devils believe in God, they are not good. Intellect has nothing to do with goodness, and empathy is a very fickle thing very unreliable.

Just because of the bolded and thats all.

i am asking why you want or encourage me to be good for GOODNESS'sake. Your answer is FOR GOODNESS' sake. That makes no sense, can you be more elaborate. What is goodness' sake? You need to be very clear what you mean, because i and other christians are capable of also going on our wavelength and just be dishing out Bible passages and terms like you all are meant to understand by default.

Oh being good for any abstract ideas is your own cup of tea.. Being good because it is right to be good is the essence of goodness.

You did not answer me, i think it is a simple YES or NO. Is it okay for me to be good for God's sake? Who determines the essence of goodness?

johnydon22:
@bolded...look at the type of poo someone is talking... Seriously i just find it very hard and infuriating to reply this type of post anymore...

The worst now is if you ask him how all humans are bad he will start telling you the Jewish mythical fables of adam and eve with the talking snake.. **Sighs**

You have a big problem with learning. A forum is an opportunity for you to learn, not just look for imaginary loopholes to attack. All you did now was to discard the many sentences and lines that i typed and beat yourself on one sentence. Would you like to be treated the same way?
If you do not agree with stuff, ignore or make your point/case in a civil manner. i am not the cause of your frustrations, the truth is bitter.
All humans are bad and a product of a fallen race. Those are my findings and conclusions, and yes it very well agrees with the Bible. i have come to discover that ALL have indeed sinned and come short of God's glory. Humans are bad because they do not meet up with the standard of what good is. i have been asking you forever now what good is. What is your criteria, what is your standard, benchmark or yardstick. It has been largely ignored or replied tritely. The reality is that my standard of good is definitely not your standard, you seem to have no standard. Feeling or empathy is no standard because it changes, it is not constant or standard. By my standard of good, all humans are bad and are a product of a fallen race. So you tell us what your standard is instead of giving me some general and meaningless statement of GOODNESS' sake, or that you have said everything that needs to be said.

Omooba77:
Government only needs to create enabling environment; many people in government offices dont want to leave because they can't do any other thing,if it is a productive sector, yes it can expand like factory, but in a ministry you have number of typists you can employ......

I said to create new jobs not duplicate jobs. People learn and can be trained. The Civil service can be made productive.

Chiaka:
Still prefare GEJ. Buhari tried thrice feel he will fail for the 4th time. Nigerians don't want him. I think he worked against himself when he truncated democracy that plunged the country into several years of military rule. Now wanting to reap from the same democracy he worked against.

Your opinion, though you are free to air it. I'm a Nigerian and I am sure that there are millions of other Nigerians that want Buhari, you cannot make a unilateral statement that Nigerians don't want him. He is a Nigerian and the Constitution permits him to reap from democracy.

Omooba77:
Ten people getting salaries of a job of two men..There is no job to be done,imaging five drivers driving same Toyota saloon car

Are you saying there is no work to be done in the Civil service? Job should be created and people paid. It is better than few top people pocketing the $1 Billion. They should find jobs for them and make them accountable. Nigeria is big and viable, things can work.

johnydon22:
You always manage to get words twisted. . . You asserted that doing good doesnt make someone good (i wonder) that only believing in god makes someone good... then i just made it clear to you that [size=20] Believing in any god or deity be it allah, yahweh, shiva, zeus doesnt make you good, your behaviour is what makes you good [/size] no more needs saying.

You somehow manage to forget to answer my questions. Here they are.
-How do you arrive at these conclusions?
-Why do you want or encourage me to be good for GOODNESS'sake?
- Is it okay for me to be good for God's sake?

Okonja-Iweala, minister for deceiving the people. Where is the 208billion saved? Is it reflected in the budget? What did you spend it on? You saved money from 62,892 ghost workers to spend on few corrupt workers like Deziani?

Acekidc4:
A frnd of My Dad who is a Religion Philosopher was arguing with my Dad n some of their frnds that being an Atheist does not mean"anything goes"- infact, quite the opposite. What do you think? Can Morality be Independent of GOD? Can people who don't believe in GOD still be as"Good" as those who do? What govern your own decision about whether and how to act Ethically?

I personally gather that many people believe that Atheism implies Nihilism- that rejecting GOD means rejecting Morality. A person who denies GOD, they reason must be, if not actively Evil, at least indifferent to considerations of Right n Wrong.

Now to my questions Nairalander's.
(1)Where does Morality comes from?
(2)What guides your thinking about how to act?
(3)Do you choose to act Morally mostly because of the promise of Reward or the threat of Punishment- from GOD or from some other Authority. Do you agree contrary to what some believe, living your life ethically is even more important if you are an Atheist, since if you do something Morally Reprehensible there is no God to forgive you, and the only value your life has is the Choices you make?

Macof, Sukkot, Tallesty, Mizmycoli, Ymodulus, Seun, Xcapizt, pastorkun, Kay17, Joseph1013, Virginfinder, Truthman2012, Malvisguy212. Come oh!!! Abeg come contribute!!!

Morality cannot be independent of God. Morality has to have absolutes. An independence of God means the loss of absolutes. We cannot afford to do just what we feel is good, because our feelings are different. There has to be a moral law giver, else in some cultures, it is good and okay to kill twins whilst in some other culture it is not okay. All humans are bad and a product of a fallen race. We are like files in a corrupt folder in a computer. No matter how useful or big or relevant the file is, it is still in a corrupt folder. It is corrupt. It needs an external help in the form of an up to date antivirus. We all need God to be good. Our good deeds do not make us good, they simply remain good deeds This is why the Bible calls our righteousness filthy rags, they are inadequate. so to be brief;
Morality comes from God, not from feeling.
God in conjunction with you should guide your thinking about how to act. These guide mine.
i am moral because of God mostly. There is no wrong in being moral because of the promise of Reward or the threat of Punishment. People have different motivations for doing things and God makes ample room for that. He provides rewards and threats too, you choose which motivates you better. Good parents and good governments also do likewise. There should be reward and there should be punishment. Being good for nothing should not be promoted or publicized or exalted above other reasons, without reason.

frank317:
Ya right, I have a Muslim friend who has been extremely nice to me and my family, he is a soldier. He has been there for me in times of need and helped my younger sis when she needed a job. of course he could do all the good deeds in this world but he is a bad person because he does not believes in Image's God.

Are you even listening to yourself?

Thank 'God' I am no longer a Christian

Ya right, you were never a christian i guess. i will ask you one question though. Is your Muslim friend perfect?

johnydon22:
Their is nothing else that needs saying that have not been said already bro. [size=20pt] Your beliefs doesnt make you a good person, your behaviour does
[/size]

None needs saying anymore bro... be good boss

The hindus believe they are good because of shiva
you believe you are good because of yahweh
muslims believe they are good because of allah
and so it keeps going.
But all this creeds and moral codes guiding these lot are all products of humans and then affiliated to the God concept.
Anyway whatever you believe is for you... But we say again
[size=17] Be good for goodness sake my brother [/size]

How do you determine that "Your beliefs doesnt make you a good person, your behaviour does". How do you arrive at these conclusions? i do not think that the hindus or the muslims believe that they are good. They believe that they have to do a lot of good. i'm not good because of any good that i have done. Why do you want or encourage me to be good for GOODNESS'sake? Is it okay for me to be good for God's sake?

SilvanusII:
I am very skeptical of this so called confession. Isn't this some sort of " I fucking did it, wotcha gonna do" statement

Actually, you may be very correct. Nigerians are very forgiving of criminals but not so forgiving of suspects. We torture suspects and harangue them but feel accomplished and think justice is served after confession. Remember Otedola and Oduah and other suspects. if IBB denied stealing or being maradona, he would have suffered.

thehomer:
It is written in Numbers 31 that your God wanted sex slaves. So God can spend your $10 on your table? Well if he spends mine, he is a worse thief than Mr. Thief since he even has his own infinite treasures but chose to spend my meager allotment.
This is your dishonesty on full display. Is that the entire sentence? Do you think people who command genocide should be punished?

Perhaps, you are relying on the power of repetition, but even repetition cannot help you in this case. All you need to do is post the passage that says God wanted sex slaves, or better still lay thine hand upon thy mouth. Accept that you were foolishly wrong again.
i did not say anything about God spending $10, where did you get that? Do you ever employ critical thinking or you are simply past it? If i spend my $10, it is okay, if Mr THIEF spends my $10, it is not okay but tantamount to stealing/theft. God OWNS human life, think now and get it in Jesus' name.
BTW, people who command genocide should be punished, i have said why several times, they cannot create human life neither do they own it. It is you who unfortunately cannot "see why a limited human(referring to your kinsmen Mao, Stalin and Pol Pot) who doesn't know it all and has limited power should be punished for genocide".

Yes I read that. But I've also read that aliens visit us here on earth, that there are faeries and that there is some Loch Ness monster. Unlike you, I don't believe everything I read.

Wow, this is almost a miracle. You answered, i have been hoping to get you to answer this simple question since since. So, why do you believe (and act from what you read) that God is immoral and reading the same book, you do not believe other things about the same God? Suspended thinking again?

Actually you can. Besides, your God dehumanized, polarized, hated and tried to exterminate those he issued the command against.

Obviously, you are not thinking.

It hasn't because they're still better than your God. Though it has led your Biblical characters to evil and worse.

Good boy, i like this honesty, i guess the demons controlling you were on a journey when you were allowed to answer this. So you have said that the Bible has not led your christian relatives to evil or worse, contrary to your wild allegations that God's word leads people to evil and worse.

You should heed your warning.

Already did, you should.

The degree of your self delusion is truly remarkable. Why were the male children killed? Do you get househelps today by killing all the male members of their families? Adultery? Are you insane? How many wives did they have? How many of those Biblical patriarchs had children by their "househelps"?
It's truly amazing the depths to which you'll sink to defend the indefensible.
Shiva who created your God determined what you can or cannot say about being good or moral. He has whispered it to me so you should take my word for it.

Your royal shamefulness should drop this madness already. Your ludicrous idea is not in the Bible but only a product of your depraved and perverted mind. Simply prove your allegations or keep quiet and make no more gaffes.

He told me so. You don't understand that passage. That passage means that you're the one who has been sent the strong delusion.

Delusion is not worth the effort.

Who ordered the killings? Read your Bible and you'll see that your God supports the things I mentioned. Regardless of what you say, I'm still better than your God.

You lied that God supports abortion, fornication, unforgiveness, indecency, hate more than you. Simply prove your cheap talk. While as a sinner that you are, you can afford to lie and deceive, i cannot. So i request that you prove your lies or at least be intelligent about it.

I have pointed it out. As I've said, your problem is with the English language. Learn to use it and you'll have your answers. You can consult a dictionary for the meaning of any words that you find confusing.

Point it out again please, i missed it. You have seen that to have is to own ko?

Yet Ingersoll and others have shown the weakness of your God. If he were forgotten, then why have I been able to quote his works? Numbers issues commands from your God so that is still up for you to see. I'm already doing otherwise by refusing to follow your depraved God.

God never said you should follow Him as Judge, in fact He has stated otherwise several times. He is the Judge and Avenger and you are to leave judgement and vengeance for Him. He has told you what things you should do, and you have being so far unable to provide tangible reason why you will do otherwise.

thehomer:
Make good use of your Shiva given intellect and be reasonable.

Learn to think for yourself instead of lazy mimicry. This is intellectual laziness and i do not expect it from extremists like you. You need to know what you are doing and why.

Why didn't he create man perfect?

When you meet God, ask Him why He did not create man perfect. However, in my little capacity, i thunk you should be more specific in your definition or use of the word "perfect". But like my signature says however, i will quote.
Psa 66:7 He ruleth by his power forever; his eyes behold the nations: let not the rebellious exalt themselves. Selah.

It is called free will, He exercised His free will and created man good, allowing man to grow to perfection. He created the earth and the planets to precision without need for growth or perfection in the sense. He created the angels and all the innumerable living creatures in Heaven to precision without need for growth or perfection in the sense. Then He decided to create us as it pleases Him.
Psa 135:6 Whatsoever the LORD pleased, that did he in heaven, and in earth, in the seas, and all deep places.

Good to see you accept that your God asked people to kill even their own children for him. If you asked your child to kill his own child for you, then I'd say you're also callous. Giving the excuse that God knows death is only a passage to eternity and is good, then why don't you go around giving your children this passage to eternity?

i never denied that God asked ABRAHAM(not people in the plural) to sacrifice his son Isaac, a command which God Himself did not allow Abraham to fully obey. But you have been squirming sheepishly in your seat instead of openly accepting the plain fact that nobody ever killed his/her child because God told him/her to do so. i am not God and i do not create human life, neither do i determine where people go when they die. On the other hand, God created human life, He made Isaac and gave him to Abraham and can give him another if He so chooses. He also determines that Isaac join Him in paradise immediately he dies here on earth. Any persons that go around giving children this passage to eternity is a murderer going to hell, and not fulfilling the purpose of God. Imagine such persons killing you, or Jesus, or David, or Moses, or Paul as a baby. These people had more important purposes to fulfill on earth before going to paradise, killing them as babies will be inimical to the plan.
BTW, i do not say/think that everything in this book must be considered the literal truth. Some things are symbolic.

You keep on deliberately missing points that are clear. Are you really unable to see the difference between deliberately killing a 6 month old baby and killing the father who your God says was a theif? Why shouldn't God "forgive" this baby who hasn't done anythign wrong other than being born? Actually, your Bible does teach that people deserve hell just for being born. This is why you should read your Bible to know the evil it teaches.

You can simply show me where, i can be grateful you know. i do not know or understand your fixation for 6 month olds, just like i do not understand why you advocate the millions of killings/abortions done annually. However, if God(the Omniscient) sees your profile and graph, and says it is better for you to die as a baby and go to paradise for eternity, than to live on on earth for 50years or more and go to hell, i think that is a good deal. At least, God left some of them alive and you are still complaining and making crazy insinuations. The most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever He will.

So your God wanted to create imperfect people but command them to be perfect? This makes no sense at all. Neither Apple nor Samsung claim to be perfect yet they've done a much better job than your God. And they have warranties on their products. Your God just sends people to hell for his own laziness and creating imperfect people.

Yes, God commands that we be perfect and we can be. He commanded the trees and the animals too and they do His command. The Heavens do His command. Many men also do His command and will be spending eternity with the perfect God. Get on the train already.
Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

It is absolutely absurd. His character, laws, the Bible are immoral. His followers are sometimes immoral if they think as you do that genocide is sometimes right. The good followers are those who reject your God's evil desires.

Lol, i noticed you are reading Twain and Sagan, high time you dumped that Inger of a soul. i have never thought genocide is sometimes right. What are God's evil desires?

Why don't you answer the question you quoted? Or have you already forgotten what genocide is?

If God commands the killing of old people, all males, babies and adults while keeping the young female babies and virgins is that a good thing? Please answer this one too.

All you're saying as far as I can see is that you think genocide is sometimes good.

i answered the question long time ago already, same act different actors perspective. God is not a man. If man does it, it is genocide, never good. If God does it, it is God and His business and property, always good.
Psa 145:9 The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works.

What is wrong with you? Can't you read? I said the formation of the earth is not the theory of evolution so your question there makes an improper assumption. Man is an ape based on the definition of apes by biologists. If you think humans are felines, then say so.

Improper assumption? Okay, sorry then. The definition of apes by biologists? What about the definition of man by God or by sensible people? You say man is ape but you will criticize him for behaving like an ape, won't you?

What do Numbers 31:1 and 31:25 say?

All you're doing is proving my point by showing that your God is confused. First he says genocide is okay, then his so-called son says that people should love others. Why do you reject the fact that he gave the command in Numbers 31? Or are you saying that the commands given in Numbers were good?

No the reason why I haven't is because I am better than your God. Why is God stopping him why doen't he destroy the devil? Or is the devil too powerful for him? You need to reject your God to save you from your dishonesty, lies, perversions and persistent depression.

Numbers 31:1 and 31:25 simply show that Numbers is the Word of God just like the other books, and in this case Romans and Matthew. Matthew 5 is a direct quote from Jesus who is God. Romans 5 is also Scripture. They are all the Word of God. Again, God does not command me or you to obey or emulate what you refer to as 'God's hate'. Contrariwise, He specifically says not to. Give reasons why you will not obey God's command to love, you have not given. God is not confused, neither am i. You are the only confused one here. The Bible clearly states and demarcates two testaments, there is an OLD testament and there is a NEW testament/agreement. How you missed that is a pity.
God does not need to destroy the devil, He already judged the devil. His sentence is clear, it is your sentence that is not yet clear. It is after you die that you will be judged, make sure you are not guilty by accepting Jesus.
Joh 16:11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

Reward? Are you mentally unbalanced? He could have prevented it all. How was it more okay? Was Job supposed to just forget that he had children who were murdered while your God looked on? Honestly the sort of depravity you religious people exhibit is just sad.

Psa 127:3 Lo, children are a heritage of the LORD: and the fruit of the womb is his reward.
Children are always reward from God, it is not reward in the sense you probably misunderstood. It is not reward for Job's trials. Whether Job lost children or no, children remain a heritage of the LORD: and the fruit of the womb is his reward. It is more okay because today, we have the book of Job and Job has served as a cushion, relief, encouragement and source of inspiration for millions in the past, today and in the future. Things were okay before i wrote my secondary school examinations, and i don't think i would have died or automatically become a failure in life if i did not write the exams. In fact, writing the examinations brought me a lot of hardwork, study and diligence and introduced a possibility of failing the exams. But i passed and so did Job. Job knows that death is not the end, neither was he as hopeless and purposeless as the atheist. He knew though painful to the flesh, that his children were in safe hands and that he will see them afterwards. They had simply gone home and left this world where we are strangers and pilgrims. Stop crying more than the bereaved, beware the sorrow of the world worketh death.
Job 19:25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
Job 19:26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:

You forgot to shed more light on this FACT of no afterlife, Or is it your FAITH at work again?

In other words, it was a crime for people to think freely when it comes to worshipping God. Calling it treason doesn't change the fact that your God made it a crime to think. I have thus demonstrated my part. You on the other hand have decided to delude himself by calling it treason to think for oneself.

Disobedience is not thinking freely. Students shouldn't think freely that they can commit exam malpractice while writing exams, i cannot think freely of riding against traffic or driving at above speed limits. Truth is absolute and exclusive. Leaving and ignoring the ambits of truth and the law does not equal to free thinking. You have demonstrated nothing. Your heroes(Korah, dathan and Abiram) were planning a secession or sedition. If you think that sedition and secession are not crimes or treasonable, well it further proves how depraved, immoral and a sinner that you are. A sinner must sin i guess. You need the Saviour Jesus.

More empty assertions I see.

You had better take good note. i thank God that they are assertions that you cannot refute, you could only mutter in deep pain. It will only be foolery to glibly assume that God needs all His creatures(including humans) to achieve His purpose. It is a privilege and not a right for humans to go anywhere called heaven. Make no mistakes again in your life, God is not desperate to get all humans into heaven.
Lol at Sagan complaining in pain and accepting that there was any competition for God. He knew shiva and the other props you dream of were nothing.
Psa 86:8 Among the gods there is none like unto thee, O Lord; neither are there any works like unto thy works.
Psa 96:5 For all the gods of the nations are idols: but the LORD made the heavens.

And I have clearly stated reasons for avoiding your God. His callousness, his evil nature, his ignorance and incompetence. You really should agree with my reasons since the Bible shows this fact.

You have being perpetually unable to prove your allegations and accusations. Your talk has been very cheap.

I hope you know that your imaginary God does not own human life even though you claims he does.

i do not know any imaginary God, do you?

anonimi:
You obviously know very little about the Industrial Revolution in the UK, USA and Europe a few centuries ago and more recently in China, South Korea, India etc otherwise you would not have typed what I highlighted.

As for your dogo turenci long grammar to discredit the laudable industrialisation policies of this federal administration, you are On Your Own, OYO as better informed people and organisations have a different opinion.


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What i have highlighted are the realities that we face. I have not denied our growing economy so save the informed people and different opinions. I am of the same opinion, Nigeria is blessed and will be great. I have known that since forever. The point i make is that we are not large or growing because of Jonathan or any policy. We are the biggest and growing because we have a large population compared to other countries, and we are big spenders. Kindly point out the link between the Industrial Revolution and Jonathan's policy. The world has left industrial revolution for decades while you are just linking our government to it by magic in 2015. Policies of exploitation is not what we need. Bring electricity and security, fight corruption, and the right market and economy will be created, it would shock the world. I'm not impressed by the Chinese, Indians and co trooping in to make illegal gain and treat our own country men like slaves.

Chiaka:
I have tested both of them, still prefare the governance of GEJ to that of GMB, they are incomparable!

That's democracy for you. I prefer GMB to GEJ and i am sure GMB would not be a military but a civilian administration if elected.

anonimi:
I hope you will not mind if I ignore your post as it does not reflect adequate understanding of the role federal government policies play in creating an enabling environment for businesses to operate in the country.

Perhaps when your posts reflect a minimum level of such understanding I may be willing to engage with you.
Cheers.

Enabling environment how? Multinationals have been coming in and going out of Nigeria in the various administrations since independence. Your other post said Yamaha was here since 1980 to 2005. They left during the global economic crises period and are trying to come back again. They have not even come back. Nigeria will always be a huge market because we are many(population), and we are rich spenders. This will happen in any government, it is not because of anything the present government did or is doing. In fact, the chief reasons why some people/investors were not coming was the power/electricity. Then few because of corruption as they cannot operate in the choking corruption in Nigeria. But this current administration has added security to the disadvantages. However, nigeria remains a big market and the business organisation will only need to weigh things and then decide whether he can still come or not. Enabling environment will be to solve power problems, and security challenges, and of course corruption. Making silly policies that turn us to slaves in our own country is not enabling environment. When corrupt firms especially from Asia- china, India and co come to Nigeria and they see that there is market and too good to be true terms, like treating citizens like slaves and getting away with it, bringing shoemakers to nigeria to become engineer and manager, getting away with poor safety and labour laws, no regards for best practices, they will come of course. But you will not/hardly see serious countries like Germany, Holland, Italy, Europe, America come here because they cannot work that way. It is majorly in oil and gas they can compromise because the money there is too much to miss for anything scrupulous.