₦airaland Forum

musKeeto: Lol, guy no change the topic. You only sound intelligent when backing up Anony and Ihedinobi. Go back to your hole...

Case in point: RCCG Kings Palace PHC. Pay a visit there on a Sunday. Then meet the ushers responsible for financial accounting after service.
Then see if my average calculations aren't right. No one's saying there are 10 branches in every state. No one's saying all tithers are faithful. That's why I used an average just like your IQ.

except your name is "No one's", you were the one assuming 10 branches in each of 36 states and 100 consistent tithe givers in each branch. It was just yesterday you made such unfounded assumptions, now you're referring me to your former employer?

Boomark: May be i was also drunk then. Its good to see you are now doing well. Unless someone else used your id to write what is up there.

you're always drunk i think.

okpara ugo: Why are you fighting over an assumption Cant you find a member in Winners chapel whose tithe exceeds N1m in a month.

Not all churches are as big as the scenario he painted yet there are many bigger than that though with areas of concentration.

you're not saying anything true that I've not said. There is no fight here, the point is not to generalize. You can see some thinking they should start a new church like its a general thing.

musKeeto: As usual, the Troll Princess Is Available.. I hail ur intelligence.

@image: U dey find argument ni, abi u one form intelligent?
My pastor and friend paid 4000 dollars as tithe while I was a member.
I'm not just spouting figures. Maybe u should contact Julian Assange so you could get an inside leak.

Less than 1 dollar a day, my black a55... How many Nigerians do you know that live in such conditions, yet attend church every Sunday?.. They'd probably live in the villages and the creeks, definitely not in towns..

If you have a better statistical assumption, please share. As far as I'm concerned, I was even a bit lenient with those figures.

do the towns make up Nigeria, or villages and creeks. People are generally not faithful tithers. Offerings, vows and projects are a different issue. You are including 36states remember? i can say it again that even RCC, RCCG AND DEEPERLIFE will struggle to boast of a single church with over 100 working class members who are consistent TITHERS in all 36 states, not to mention the generalisation of all churches and pastors.

@Gosh

2. Who are the group that tithed and Jesus addressing in Matthew 23:23 Christians Scribes and Pharisees Hypocrites who are they, kindly tell us

And what does it matter, why are you chasing shadows? Is the person Jesus is addressing make His statement less truth, or less of spirit and life? Here below, where He directly addressed disciples, do you obey Him?
Mat 23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
Mat 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
Mat 23:3 ALL therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

Do you listen to this, or as expected, pull out some excuse from your scholarhighness? Don't you yet realise that a major of what Jesus said was addressed to the scribes, pharisees, sadducees, and sinners? Does that reduce the value of His words. Why do you err, not knowing the scriptures?
John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Do you not yet realise, that it was a Pharisee Jesus told these eternal words, "Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again". When He said " the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost." Don't you realise that they were Pharisees. Are these words not true and for all? When He said "Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's. ", was it to angels or to scribes and Pharisees. Are those also irrelevant since He is addressing Pharisee? Most of His parables, of the Samaritan, and of the prodigal Son, and of the rich man and Lazarus, i guess we should erase them, since He was talking to Pharisee. i just pray that your bigotry and short-sightedness will not harm you too much in obtaining the reward God has for you.

3. "Ye tithe of mint and anise and cummin and have omitted the weighter matters of the law" proves Jesus was still under the law and the law still in effect according to Galatians 4:4,

New International Version (©1984)
But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law,

1Co 9:8 Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also?
Paul quoted the law extensively to gentiles. Perhaps, he was still under the law too? On what premise did Jesus forgive sins, was it under the law?

4. "these ought ye to have done" Yes, Jesus validates it because it was still a matter of the law abi na Abraham/Melchizedek tithe you want make Jesus approve knowing that one wasn't commanded. Besides, Jesus had not died for the NT to begin with both Jews and Gentiles in the New Covenant. He had to die in order to fulfill the law of Moses.

Jesus approved of tithes, He wasn't making any distinctions. Tithe is simply 10% of income. It is Pharisees and their proselytes that make an issue of details and unwarranted specifics.

.

Where in Hebrews Chapter 7 does it say tithe was receive AFTER the law Where Kindly tell us the verse......and remember you mean AFTER the law. I really want to read the verse. It is not a past issue because when we allow leaven to stay, it blows up the whole issue. Show us the verse and I will not bore you anymore.

Again,
Heb 7:8 And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.

Abi Hebrews 7 no bi AFTER the law again ko?

@Gosh

@ Image123,

Is it that too hard for you to show us from scripture who and where tithe was received AFTER the law. Remember Jesus was born under the law o......so when you said "AFTER the law", I want to believe you know what "AFTER" means.

AFTER indeed. You should have seen it earlier if you were not too busy with your soliloquy. Debosky and zikky were aware and even quoted the verse i think.
Heb 7:8 And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.

It simply means, tithing is an integral part of the law of Moses as a whole.

Waooooh, you seem to understand the law better than Jesus who classed tithes as a minor matter in the law. You deserve to be Rabbi, don't you think?

New Living Translation (©2007)
For the law was not intended for people who do what is right. It is for people who are lawless and rebellious, who are ungodly and sinful, who consider nothing sacred and defile what is holy, who kill their father or mother or commit other murders. - I Timothy 1:9

i see this scripture wan bend your bones small, and may also some others if not read in its right context. Permit me to share.
1Ti 1:5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:
'The end'there refers to the GOAL or the PURPOSE. The goal of the commandment is love. The purpose of the commandment/law is love. It's similar to what Jesus said in Matthew that all the law and the prophets hang on love for God and one's neighbour. Or James' (Jam 2:8 If ye fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself, ye do well.) or Paul's (Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. )
Paul is telling Timothy and us of course, that all the law is teaching is love, and good conscience and faith. Quite reminiscent of Matthew23v23 i must confess.

1Ti 1:6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;
1Ti 1:7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.
If you don't understand the law, don't insult it, its a rule of thumb you guys ought to have in mind. There were folks who did not understand the law in Paul's time who swerved. The swerved from the law! That's almost a virtue to you folks. When one swerves from the law(especially its purpose of love, good conscience and faith), you collide with vain jangling. You continue to stumble.
Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
Psa 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
Pro 28:9 He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination.

i could go on in a praise of the law but wouldn't. The early christians respected the law as the Word of God. It was their scriptures. They all commended it, it's then unfortunate how you out of context decide to deride the law and condemn it.
Hear James on the law, he thought the law was perfect.
Jam 1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
Hear David, a man after God's heart.
Psa 119:128 Therefore I esteem all thy precepts concerning all things to be right; and I hate every false way.

Hear John the beloved,
1Jo 2:7 Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.
What he is saying is in paraphrase that "what i'm telling you is not different from the OT which hangs on love, according to Jesus".

Hear Peter, he encouraged the listeners to listen to the old,
2Pe 3:2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Savior:
He said listen to the old guys, then us. But your folks here are saying "Pull out the old guys and the four gospels, lets listen to the after the law guys".

Hear Paul the apostle,
Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
To imagine that Paul delights in the law, considers it good, holy and spiritual! He must be kidding, right? No, He told Timothy,
1Ti 1:8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
We KNOW that the law is good. He told the romans that we ESTABLISH the law. These are mainly gentiles been addressed. How you folks find it easy to come here and treat the law as scum is bewildering. It is not apostolic, biblical or a mark of holiness. We know that the law is good, do you? It is on all these premise that he speaks in the next verse. you can't forget all of the scripture and build on a verse not read in its context!
1Ti 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
1Ti 1:10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

The law is not made for a righteous man i.e the law is not made BECAUSE OF a righteous man. A righteous man is obeying the law already. He's not lying or committing fornication or profane, or a murderer. But a sinner needs a law to convict him. Where there is no law, there is no sin. Abraham can marry his sister because there is no law against it. But you can't, David can't, even Solomon can't. It would be sin because a law has come. John says Sin is the transgression of the law.(1John3v4). The law is made or written or stated so that man can be shown that he is guilty. It is the mirror that shows you your self like James says, comparing the law to a mirror. The law cannot clean you, just like a mirror cannot clean you, but it can show you right and wrong, good and bad. The Jews tried to use the mirror to get clean. It is the blood that can get you clean. So the law was made to show the sinner his sins, and if you'd properly recall, ALL HAVE SINNED. There is none righteous, no, not one. Paul said these things!
Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
He later said in that passage that,
1Ti 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

The law shows us what is right and wrong, what is good, what is spiritual, what is holy. But it cannot justify us or save us. It is God's grace that justifies and saves us. that's what this passage is bringing to light. It is not in any way an encoragement to not obey God's commands.

@zikky

why not? oya teach me na let's hear your sermon.

It's called HYPOCRISY. you can't claim to throw away the law and still be encouraging faith, a weighty part of the law.
Mat 23:24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.
You are swallowing the camel of the law(faith), and straining at the gnat of the law(tithe).

If it was part of the law nkor? Peeps were commiting murder before and after the law and they had guiding rules, so why do i need to adhere to the mosaic law?

duh, people were giving tithes before and after the law. Tithing is not limited to the law.

I don't understand you o! first you say you adhere to the weightier matters of the law. are you now saying you don't adhere to the minor or lighter matters of the law?

i do, unfortunate you lost your own milk teeth.

@zikky

I don't understand why you have difficulty defending your position. Is 'yep' one of the twelve tribe of Israel? please answer the question; Image123, who received tithe after the law? it's a very simple question requiring a very simple answer. abeg answer before i vex if you cannot explain your comments, please stop posting here

i don't have a question to answer. i said the Bible records people receiving tithes after the law and never condemned them. To this you initially replied by saying "yep". Where does the tribes of Israel enter? You already agreed to my premise. The premise that PEOPLE received tithes after the law and no one condemned them. How simple can that answer get? Do you want me to say something outside the Bible to satisfy you. It says people and i say people.
Heb 7:8a And here men that die received tithes;

Paul's behavior among the gentiles was that of one not under the bondage of the mosaic law. The weightier and minor matters of the mosaic law were not relevant in his dealings with the gentiles, only the law of Christ was relevant.

You lie my friend, you lie. Paul had no issues writing about the law to anybody, jew or gentile. The law was what they knew as scriptures. He often used the law to validate what he said. This is because they respected the law. You are the one having issues with the law, Paul had no such issues, neither did the gentiles or the jews.
1Cor 9:8 Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also?
Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Jesus said the law hung on love.
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

He said the major matters of the law included faith, mercy and judgement. How you can say these were not relevant in Paul's dealings with the gentiles beats my imagination. What then was he dealing with them, ludo?

Where is it stated in the bible that the man collecting offering also collects tithe? quote from the old testament is allowed

Thank you. BTW, i said the person.
Mal 3:8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.

if the weightier matters of the law are faith, mercy and judgement nkor? it does not change anything. the law is not for Christians, simple.

You do not understand the law, simple. The law is for everybody. It would be right if you say that the law does not justify anybody or save anybody.
1Co 9:21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
i hope you realise that Paul was a christian, and that he encouraged us to follow him?

don't deceive yourself jor who is fighting the word of God? my fight is against the 'word of image123' which is in direct contradiction to the word of God

You are fighting
Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Na by force? or i look like a pharisee abi?

Mat 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

musKeeto: I've worked for one of the popular churches. I had access to most of the financial sheets within our church.

We'll ignore offerings(building, special, seedfaith, all other bullshit), and donations.

TITHES: this is the real windfall
Every month, each member is expected to pay 10% of his salary. For our case study, let's assume one church has a 100 members. Let's also assume each of them earns minimum wage.

18,000 * 10% = 1,800

1,800 * 100 = 180,000naira every month.

Imagine a church has at most 10 branches in a state.

180,000 * 10 =1.8million naira per month..

There are 36 states in Nigeria, Abuja is excluded..

1.8m * 36= 64.8m naira every month..

Need I say more..

REMEMBER OFFERINGS, DONATIONS, SPECIAL SERVICE OFFERINGS, ARE NOT INCLUDED IN THESE FIGURES.

There is a big gap called REALITY between your post and that of okeyxyz that should not be ignored though. Okeyxyz's post is an "even at that" which is agreed with. Your conjectures above are based on a lot of yes, conjectures, assumptions. The reality on ground is that many people in the country are living below $1 per day, they say is 70%. Reality is not like multi-level marketing or the rodomontaded wonder banks. You don't just assume bring in 5000 or invite 10 people and then the 'blessings' continue to flow(you reap 20,000 or climb up the ladder). Its unreal, and those schemes don't work. It's the same principle you're placing here.
1. How many churches have up to 100 members that earn at least 18,000? You are assuming that wealth is evenly distributed, that everybody in church is an adult/working class, that all adults have a job, and that all jobs pay at least 18,000naira. i don't know how many churches, even RCCG, that have 100 working class people in one branch.
2. Secondly, you assume that everyone of these people in church are diligent and faithful at giving tithes. Very wrong my friend, very wrong. You would be surprised at the number of dedicated church members that for one reason or the other do not pay tithes.
3. You assume that all churches have up to 10 branches in each state. That is laughably unrealistic. You don't appear to have moved around too much. That one church is stronger than cement in Lagos does not mean that they have any branch in Ekiti or Kogi, not to mention the North or the East or the South South. Most of these churches have their areas of concentration. You're assuming a church in Gombe, Bauchi, Borno that has 10 branches in any of those states and each branch has up to 100 people earning 18,000 and willing to part with 10% for the church. This is utopia i guess.
4. You also assume that even among faithful tithers, all are consistent. Not putting into cognisance the number that are not persuaded on tithing, even the ones that believe and practice are not always consistent. Not every tither has given tithes for the past 10 or 11 months consecutively.
Try and weigh in these realities in your assumptions, after which you can safely cross into okeyxyz's logical posts. thanks.

it is unto you according to your faith. And faith is rooted in God's Word, not braggadocio.

let sleeping dogs lie. Are you going for the program?

wow, what a man. Hope to meet you in heaven.

Goshen360: Who is putting aside the words of Christ. Why don't you rightly divide the word of truth. All scriptures is useful when we teach so we can quote the words of Christ inclusive. How many times do you want us to tell you and Joagbaje that Christians don't kill nor bear false witness because it is written in the law but because of the Spirit of the NT.

Image123, show us where tithe was received AFTER the law or remain a certified liar.....



And the law we are talking about was given to Christians Other than the law of Christ who is the mediator of the NT. You disagree? Make I start dey fly scripture on top of your head.....

You need an update.
Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
You are putting this aside, recall? What is the spirit of the NT, i need to be clear?
Hebrews 7 tells us that tithes was received after the law, you are beginning to bore me. i thought that issue was already past? What is the law of Christ, and who told you tithes is not part of this 'law of Christ'even after Christ commended it?
Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

frosbel: So you have changed your position ?

Because if I remember vividly your stance a few weeks ago, it was that when a man dies in sin he goes straight to hell, if he dies in righteousness he goes to paradise. Case in point , the rich man and lazarus.
And therefore with this statement , you nullify 90% of visions on hell which actually suggest the contrary.


Good to see that you are now on the right path at least with this issue

Perhaps you were drunk when reading me. i'm saying the same thing i've been saying on this issue since i joined this forum.

Zikkyy: ^^^^ Done.

you for read verse8 join am.

1Ti 1:8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;

Pastor Kun: Unfortunately Image123 is neither obeyng Jesus nor even following in his footsteps. He is actually denying the grace of Jesus by insisting on christian tithing which is derived from obsolete laws christains are not subject to. Christians are under grace and insisting on keeping aspects of the law is denying the grace of crist. The matthew 23:23 image 123 keeps clinging to was addressed to pharisees who were under the law and NOT christians who are not subject to the law. If Image123 sees himslef as a pharisee who is under the curse of the law then that is his problem but he should stop using that verse to lead other christians into bondage.

There was tithe before the law, and tithing does not have to be according to the law Kunle, would you ever learn? Thou shalt love God, and love thy neighbour are aspects of the law, do you try to keep them? Thou shalt not kill or bear false witness? They are aspects of the law. Why are you encouraging people to keep those and discouraging tithing? You are being partial, don't you know?
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

What if Matthew 23 was addressed to Pharisees? Does it make it less true or incorrect? The words of Jesus Christ are spirit and life. You and your likes remain a shame to the body of Christ for putting aside the words of Jesus.

Like i said previously, this stuff is a two way thing. There are differences of administration and different instances. It is wrong for one group to force its myopic thinking on the other in this case. It is possible to pay instrumentalists in some administrations if there is the need. It is also possible not to pay instrumentalists in some other administration if there is no need. i see that in this thread, the 'pay instrumentalists' team are trying to force their views on everyone. Na church get fault, no bi you. In the proper sense, there is no need for you. It is because the today's church has placed a high value on entertainment that you are having mouth. You for don die of hunger if you be first century christian looking for church to pay you for playing instruments. Thank God, me sef sabi play instrument, so i "qualify" to talk according to many of you. i learnt and am still learning on mine own too. i happen to like music. If you are an instrumentalist by profession, well my advice is that you find a job instead of looking for church that will pay you to play. Little wonder, church music is so powerless these days, with all this agberos playing instruments for money. Many of them are just in church for music. They'd gladly walk out of that church if they were suspended from playing or if another organisation calls them with higher salary. Church business na truly good business. Bunch of unspiritual people dem.

@big nero
thanks for your input. i happen to agree with many things you have said, though i felt it needful to make some corrections. We are all learning though, and i'm trying tto make my inferences from the Bible's viewpoint.

the IMAGE and likeness ur made in the form of God is your (IMAGINATION) thinking and imaging are spiritual process.

Gen 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be a hundred and twenty years.
Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
Man's thinking and imagination is naturally different from God's We are fleshly by default, God is spiritual.

the soul:its made up of the mind, will,emotions etc.it has no intellect or knows what is good or evil, but it is impressed with our constant thots,beliefs etc its also called the subconcious.its a power house, that is why you can get ur self to Believe something to the contrary and if u maintain ur faith ,u shall get results.

You are actually referring to the will here, not faith. Determination is of the will, and any man can have a strong will or determination to acheive something, e.g to be rich, to finish school, to excel, to get a girl, to buy a particular car, to travel abroad, to fulfil a goal. These can all be done with a strong will. Faith is of the heart or spirit. Man believes with the heart. That's why it is many times independent of reason or intellect. A man can believe his wife or his child or his colleague or his god, even against reason or intelligence.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

the spirit:is the spirit of God,it knows all things as its one and the same with God,

NO. Every human has his own individual spirit that is different from the Spirit of God.
Pro 20:27 The spirit of man is the candle of the LORD, searching all the inward parts of the belly.
1Co 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Act 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
2Co 2:13 I had no rest in my spirit, because I found not Titus my brother: but taking my leave of them, I went from thence into Macedonia.

the diffrenece is in degress, God is the all in all ur spirit is part of this all in all(we are all from one source, yes everything u see was created from that which we see not(GOD). The spirit wars with the flesh constantly, and their fight is for the soul.(thats why a criminal can suddenly have a change of heart from nowhere even when he thot his former deeds wer justified,he may later say he eyes were opened etc, its his spirit that opened his eyes to the spirit)

This delves into NewAge teachings oh. They believe that man's spirit is some degree of God and that every living thing is some degree of God. Then they encourage searching into your self for God by meditation, yoga, spirit travel etc. All these is not of the true God. God is in Heaven. He remains Our Father, which art in Heaven. i hope you'll see these things and make the necessary adjustments, renewings and corrections.

Crazy has answered you, OP.

This is a continuation from a similar article written a few weeks ago.

1. If HELL exists and according to the bible it was prepared for the devil and his angels, how come they are not yet in this place of torment

There is time for everything.
Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Ecc 3:1 To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:

2. If Hell exists and the devil and his billions of angels are not yet in this place of torment how can man possibly go to this place for torture immediately after death

No man goes to hell fire immediately after death. Shows you've learnt nothing but to pour out your points in your numerous threads. Devil will be put into hell fire before men.
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night forever and ever
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

3. If HELL was made to torment the devil and his angels as the bible says, how come we have reversed roles, where the one who should be tormented is actually tormenting others.


Please answer these questions honestly.

The devil is not going to be tormenting anybody in hell, dunno where you found such. Maybe in one of your numerous articles in your search for what is not missing. Search the Scriptures!

Yes @op. i have a good friend who is a christian and a programmer.

[quote author=Area_boy]You obviously haven't read your bible. The problem with people like you; you take the interpretations of others as to mean the actual writings in the bible. You have a head don't you? Grab your bible and read, when you are done come give me the verses where all those things are supported (as long as they are not contradicted before or after)


Pot calling kettle black. If I slap you [/quote]hahahahahaha, you dey fear? You're already giving silly clauses, and out options. i maintain that there is nothing that the op has said that is not biblical. Your statement suggests that you already know that.

@zikky

Apostle Paul became as one under the law to gain those under the law. You image123 became a Jew (subject yourself to the mosaic law) for what purpose? so you can hammer abi? You see where your desire for wealth (cash) has taken you to?

are you joking here, or deliberately reading me selectively? The weighthier matters of the law are faith, mercy and judgement. By the grace of God, i still adhere to the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith. it seems you've lost the plot in your bid to fight the word of God.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
Phi 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
That is purpose in those scriptures. call me names, i am not ashamed of the Word of God. I am of the Israel of God by faith.

No, i don't adhere to the weightier matters of the (mosaic) law. i don't even adhere to the (mosaic) law.

Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

hmmm, the pharisees and scribes of Jesus' time gave tithes and omitted the weightier matters of the law. You seem not to do any of them. Who would have thought there was a lower low? i thought the scribes and pharisees were very low, i wonder what you weigh on the scale. You may want to think on the below.

Mat 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. SELAH

You guys just deliberately refused to understand what the issue is. It is not an issue of committing murder or honoring your father. A Christian 'honoring' his father is not doing it because it is written in the mosaic law that he should. This is the issue with tithe; you don't find anybody tithing to the Levite outside of the law, you don't find tithe issued as a command from God outside of the law. If you must teach tithe or if peeps must pay tithe, it should not be based on the requirement of the mosaic law, simple. There is nothing wrong in giving a tenth of your income to the church afterall every giving is a percentage of something. It just that pastors cannot justify the call to tithe (fixed percentage giving) without reference to the mosaic law, and that should tell you there something wrong with the tithe sermon.

It's so difficult justifying your tithing scheme without the law, to the extent image123 decided to take up Jewish citizenship now image123 is an 'hypocritical pharisee'

The issue is that you can't claim to throw away the law and still be encouraging faith, a weighty part of the law. You do not understand the law. That's why you preach a doctrine of convenience, of throwing away the OT and the four gospels when it suits you. Commiting murder and honouring parents are part of the 10 commandments, an integral part of the law. You can't only be whining about an insignificant part of the law, and put a blind eye on the major. This is HYPOCRISY.
Mat 23:24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

Don't you understand that churches do not tithe today according to the law? Don't you know and say that tithing according the law MUST BE to the house of Levi? My church has no Levite, but we give tithes. Why do you want to force us under the law when you yourselves do not want to be under the law?
Mat 23:4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
You are sounding and behaving very like the scribes and pharisees referred to by Jesus. May God help you.

Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
i'd rather obey Jesus than a thousand page exposition from you guys, thank you. You're not my Saviour, Jesus is. You're not my Lord, Jesus is. His words remain spirit and life.

@zikky

You have refused to answer a simple question. Who received tithe after the law? if you truly believe tithe was received after the law, answer the question na

What question again? i said the Bible records people receiving tithes after the law and never condemned them. to this you said "Yep" and the excuses. This ones are holier than Jesus and the apostles. Hear what Jesus said, his sheep hears his voice.
"these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
it is right for you to do these, and not to let the others be undone.
These you should practice, without neglecting the others.
"

You don't expect peeps to complain when they are not tithing, do you?

i don't understand. Are you tithing? Are you guys tithing and complaining, i don't understand this new insight you are giving us ooo?

The Gentiles complained when they received told they must be circumcised and also required to observe the mosaic law. read Acts 15.

Are you serious at all or just been frivolous and blinded as usual when tithe issues come up? Were Paul and Barnabas gentiles?
It's not my intent or motive to 'pieces' your posts, but you sometimes leave no choice, as this unimportant nonsenses would be overlooked as truth by many and overtime if left unattended. Similar thing with Gosh's soliloquy.

Read Apostle Paul in his letter - Corinthians:

1 Corinthians 9:20-21 (KJV)
20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.

If Paul became like the Gentiles, how is it possible he instructed them to tithe? BTW who collects such tithe?

i don't understand how this verse has anything to do with tithes. Please put yourself in my shoes, try and imagine if someone came up and used this verse to encourage tithes. You guys don't understand the law. You're simply giving us your ideas and punctuating them with bible verses, that is soooo wrong!!!! Who collects offerings? The same person who collects offerings collects tithes.

@ijawk

I wanted OLA to be humble like the apostle paul and every other 1st century christian....

This is what paul who had done everything for the GOODnews said..if only OLA was a quater of paul his statement wouldn't have cracked me up....::::::

Humility is not fear, insecurity, uncertainty or lack of confidence.

These are pauls words @ phillipians 3:11-14:::::::


Philippians 3:11–14
11 and so, somehow, attaining to the
resurrection from the dead.
12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or
have already arrived at my goal,l but I press
on to take holdm of that for which Christ
Jesus took hold of me.n 13 Brothers and
sisters, I do not consider myself yet to have
taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting
what is behind and straining toward what is
ahead, 14 I press onp toward the goal to win
the prizeq for which God has calledr me
heavenward in Christ Jesus.

Ola has not said that he has reached his goal. He said his name is written in heaven, there is absolutely nothing wrong in saying that. A christian ought to have an assurance of his salvation. He ought to know that he has eternal life and has passed from death into life.
1Jo 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Having eternal life and your name written in heaven doesn't mean or stop you from pressing forward in knowing God/christ, and the power of His resurrection. We still grow in grace and in knowledge.
1Jo 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Paul knew that it was only when he endured right to the end faithfully that his name or his chances of survival into the heavens would be sure......

OLA's statement totally displays PRIDE.....and like I said for the fact he supports isreal in its blood shed in recent times shows he himself isn't ready for heaven.............

2Ti 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.
Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Paul knew that there was a crown of righteousness waiting for him. He knew he was saved, and called the believers "saved" and "saints".

You can hear these words also in zephaniah 2:3....

##King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth,
which have wrought his judgment; seek
righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye
shall be hid in the day of the LORD'S anger.


##GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Search for the LORD, all you humble people in
the land who carry out his justice. Search for
what is right. Search for humility. Maybe you
will find shelter on the day of the LORD's
anger.
____________________________
You see the use of the word ""MAYBE""??



Our gaining eternal life can only be a reality when we ""endure "" to the end not when we are presumptuous......

na wa for you oh, you had to go all the way to zephaniah to tell us that we may be or may not be? Did you read from verse 1? Would you not rather align yourself to people like me and Ola in 1Peter 2v9? If na tithe we dey talk now, you go easily bleat its not talking to you! Paul was a man who boldly declared.

Act 23:1 And Paul, earnestly beholding the council, said, Men and brethren, I have lived in all good conscience before God unto this day.
1Th 2:10 Ye are witnesses, and God also, how holily and justly and unblamably we behaved ourselves among you that believe:

Paul could boldly tell others to walk worth and to be followers of him.


1Co 4:16 Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.
1Co 4:16 Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.
Phi 3:17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an example.
He said he was BLAMELESS and encouraged others to be. He was persuaded, he was not a conqueror but more than a conqueror. he never lived a wishy washy defeated life. he had the spirit of faith, and you ought to if you are a christian. Every child of God should be able to declare "We are of God, We have this treasure, We know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens."

frosbel: ^^^

My aim is not to appease the members of the harlot church , but rather to expose them.

hehehehe, your pride no gree you.

he'll be shooting his post and pride if he answered the question.

everybody can come up with one reason or another of why he deserves to paid, even newcomers/firsttimers. At the end, what do you go to church for?

Logicboy03: Therefore, pigs can be God.



Just shut up with all your nonsense conlusions, abeg.

that's femmymata's view. Stop posting like an illiterate.

[quote author=Area_boy]far better than what we have in the bible as a "moral" compass[/quote]you're a prime example of ignorance. All the op has said are biblical.

it depends on administration, there are different administration. Personally, I'd rather not be paid for that.

frosbel: You do not fail to exhibit your ignorance time and time again.

how sir?

seriallink: @Image, did you play the video at all? *Smh* !!

no sir, not necessary in this case.