₦airaland Forum

Jem1: ^^^^^^

Bros, This one you're not comprehending my post, shey you never wack your tithe abi you carry am buy strong drink per Deut 14:26

God forbid, i gave my tithes to Jesus as commanded in Matthew and Hebrews nah. :-D

that slap can kill somebody.

^isee you understood the post. you try jare zikky.

In the larger, faster growing one, they did teach Abram's tithe (not tithes or tenths - Abram is only recorded as giving once)but taught it as justification for COMPULSORY tithing, using Leviticus and Numbers as proof that it is mandatory for Christians to 'pay' it, as that 10% 'belongs to God' and is not up to you to decide whether to give or not.

What dry point are you up to again. Which one is tithe. Before na pay and give, Abram and Abraham, now na tithe. For your mind brotha
Gen 14:20 And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithe[b]s[/b] of all.
The 's' dey hurt your eyes abi? Have you paid your tithe? I have paid mine oooooooooooooo. Like i said, my posts on this thread are numbered and may not be as explanatory as before, so kunle stop dreaming. And Jem Jem1, what's up with Apostle Paul talking about sowing and reaping in the NT BTW, he is talking about crops right, keeping the standard of the Levitico XX? You guys need a renewal of your minds, all of you.

debo debo, I like your dribble, almost like Ronaldo's. Who said tithe must be from the 'promised land'? iguess you did not pay enough attention in your church, or you be perpetual late comer. I find it hard to believe that any large church in nigeria has not mentioned to its members that Abraham paid tithes to Melchisedek.

nuclearboy: @image123:

I am sure you have heard the term "Nation of Islam" before! Humor me but please tell us who made up that nation of Islam and in which setting they exist?

nuclear, don't disappoint. The nation of islam has similar meaning to the nation of Israel? you kid a lot, let's be serious please.

Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Mal 3:9 Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.
Gen 49:2 Gather yourselves together, and hear, ye sons of Jacob; and hearken unto Israel your father.
1King 18:31 And Elijah took twelve stones, according to the number of the tribes of the sons of Jacob, unto whom the word of the LORD came, saying, Israel shall be thy name:

how on earth we want to twist that to mean a couple of priests is very befuddling.

@thehomer

I think you need to consider avoiding these walls of text that you keep putting up.

shows your interest in knowing.

You're still missing my point. My point is that going by your logic, it would be better for all children to be killed shortly after they are born since that way, they'll automatically make it into heaven.

By what i've said, they will all automatically make it to heaven yes. but that's not the purpose for which they were created, they were not created to die as babies and go to Heaven. they were created to glorify God in hteir lives here on earth.

Sure humans live better no thanks to your God. Note that you're right now turning to humans to perform these breakthroughs rather than simply sitting in your church and praying for God to give it to you. Humans being smart enough to save themselves without your God's help counts against your God.

Nobody has knowledge or breakthrough or discovery without God's permission. it was all given by God in the first instance. that man is just discovering things doesn't mean he did it all by himself. God did not say anyone sit in church all your life and pray for Him to give you. God ordained sowing and reaping. You should so research, and hardwork and diligence, and you will enjoy life. the clause is that everything still gets tied/linked back to God because that is the way He has programmed us to have real fulfillment and good success.

I told you previously that earthquakes and other disasters are a natural consequence of living on planet such as earth, you disagreed now, you're repeating my own words back at me. Do you now finally agree that these phenomena are a natural consequence of the earth?
You could take a look at this article which tells you that over the past 1 million years, it has varied by more than 1o.

i was not in disagreement in a sense. My point is that that reason alone is superficial. Natural disasters are intrinsically caused by man's fall. Earth is out of course, that is the point. Whether it is out of course by 1 degree or 100degrees is not the debate. The issue is that if earth went out of it's 'path', things would happen which were not supposed to happen. And the other point is that despite been out of course, man can still survive fairly well if we had the know-how to. Today, we have gadgets that can make man stay under water and in space. the point is that if we had not fallen from Adam, most of what has become nature could still be coped with without them been known as deficiencies and disasters.

Well, just where is this Garden of Eden? Have you seen it on Google Earth with the Cherubim guard?

You've side-stepped the issue, and i should also accuse you of not been consistent. You were asking about the size of Eden and the brilliance of Adam, i've now shown you that Eden was fairly large and that Adam must have had some know-how to manage a paradise that large. Instead of you to see that, you decide to go on a mock-roll. Adam was to maintain eden. your common sense should tell you that since he was driven out from keeping it, it would take less than 2years for the whole place to become an unrecognisable jungle. Eden is not magic, it was a blue print Adam was meant to replicate all over the earth.

If God isn't supposed to help people, then how can he be beneficent to humans? Why don't you say he is indifferent?

Does your mum bathe for you?

So it is the devil that is playing with your genes? You just make these things up whole cloth. If Satan can reach into people's DNA, what is God doing to stop this? Is he powerless before Satan?

My genes are in perfect condition. i only told you of the possibility and reasons of getting sick. Adam gave satan the right, not God. You keep missing that. God has no plans to repair earth. he already made a new earth which will be revealed in His time. It is love that God considers anyone that wants out of Adam's race to be part of His new earth. He does not owe you anything. Heaven is not by force, but it's in your best interest.

waoh, one really can't force the horse to drink. BTW debo, i am curious, who said tithe has to be out of the 'promised land', and which are the two largest churches you reference and which of the tithe 'classes' do they teach?

iguess Abraham is not a part of your history, also 2chronicles 31.5 and Malachi that mentions bringing ALL the tithes. All that matters to you is to obey your interpretation that only crop and animal was acceptable, a point not stated anywhere in the bible. What becomes more obvious is the fact that God made His words so basic that the general public could obey it and provide for His servants. Luke10 is yet another demonstration where the Master talked about eating and drinking your wages i.e that labourer is worthy of his wages passage. It wasn't rare to pay one in food. Money in the form we know it, was not as basic as it is today. That was why grown men like Peter and John could move about without money. That was why Jesus and His entourage could move around without money to pay tax. You can be sure they had food though. That was a basic measure anyone on the average could meet. Today, money has taken a more central position and literally makes the world go round. It didn't always occupy that position. You refuse the scripture and history wen you don't take that to note. God accepts my tithe, you can go and query Him.

What I have seen with you and other tithe teachers so far is THE MIXTURE OF PRE-LAW TITHE AND LAW TITHE. When asked tough questions, you jump to pre-law and blend or mix your answers with the law tithing. You cannot give a standalone answer strictly on the pre-law tithe which you claim its basis of tithing. That is the area my questions are pointing to recently.

There is nothing really like pre law tithe and law tithe. Tithe is tithe, simply a tenth. It is antitithers that try to divide it. The Bible is not divided, it is God's Word. People who teach tithe preach it as one, because the Word of God is One, and we have respect to all the precepts of God. It's antitithers that would be segregating if for instance one quotes Malachi, then you guys would come and say crops, levites, blah blah. then its only natural to point you to the likes of Abraham that also gave tithes and it was acceptable even without Levites or only crops. And when you say one-off, it's naturally we bring up the two, and in the light and spirit of the two, and all other 'tithe passages', we make reasonable, spirit led, and sustaining decisions and doctrines as it were.

As for you, you have chosen to create further lies - the common man could redeem his vows in money, could exchange the very tithes for money, so this tosh about a measure of wealth is irrelevant.
The agrarian nature of the economy has NOTHING to do with the commandment God gave. Your suggestion that it does/did is indeed unconsolidated tosh. The farmers who grew crops - what did they do with them? They SOLD them for money. If God was interested in MONEY as tithes, he would have said so - leave your road side economic history for someone else.

What about those that didn’t grow crops or have flocks?

i've not forced, compelled or even asked you to tithe. i've simply stated reasons why people do so. It's up to you, it's never a war or a big deal. Your spiritual welfare is of more concern to me than whether you give tithe or pay tithe or no. i've tried to answer based on the context of questions asked by almost all, and tried to simply and apply answers as much as possible. It becomes their cup of tea when posters begin to pick and choose my words to paint the pictures they want to. They did worse to Paul, and others in the Bible. i do not owe you guys an explanation, neither do i feel pressured to respond to your every single sentence if i want to by the grace of God. i've never read these 3 links before now, but they at least show that what i'm saying is not from another planet. i thought it was common knowledge but you've proved it's not. i'm not going into any research on it. i got it as simply as googling money, and it shows up what i've been saying, and you've been treating as if it's some esoteric knowledge. Please read(1). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money. Some of the phrases below are there.
-Money is any object or record that is generally accepted as payment for goods and services and repayment of debts in a given country or socio-economic context.[1][2][3] The main functions of money are distinguished as: a medium of exchange; a unit of account; a store of value; and, occasionally in the past, a standard of deferred payment.[4][5] Any kind of object or secure verifiable record that fulfills these functions can serve as money.

-Money originated as commodity mone[/b]y, but nearly all contemporary money systems are based on fiat money.

- Many cultures around the world eventually developed the use of commodity money.
- The shekel was originally a unit of weight, and referred to a specific weight of barley, which was used as currency.
- After World War II, at the Bretton Woods Conference, most countries adopted fiat currencies that were fixed to the US dollar. The US dollar was in turn fixed to gold.
- Examples of commodities that have been used as mediums of exchange include gold, silver, copper, [b]rice, salt, peppercorns, large stones, decorated belts, shells, alcohol, cigarettes, cannabis, candy,

(2), http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodity_money
- Commodity money is money whose value comes from a commodity of which it is made. It is objects that have value in themselves as well as for use as money.[1]
Examples of commodities that have been used as mediums of exchange include gold, silver, copper, peppercorns, large stones (such as Rai stones), decorated belt[/b]s, shells, alcohol, cigarettes, cannabis, candy, barley, [b]laundry detergent, etc. These items were sometimes used in a metric of perceived value in conjunction to one another, in various commodity valuation or price system economies.
- Commodities often come into being in situations where other forms of money are not available or not trusted. Various commodities were used in pre-Revolutionary America including wampum, maize, iron nails, beaver pelts, and tobacco. According to economist Murray Rothbard:
In the sparsely settled American colonies, money, as it always does, arose in the market as a useful and scarce commodity and began to serve as a general medium of exchange. Thus, beaver fur and wampum were used as money in the north for exchanges with the Indians, and fish and corn also served as money. Rice was used as money in South Carolina, and the most widespread use of commodity money was tobacco, which served as money in Virginia. The pound-of-tobacco was the currency unit in Virginia, with warehouse receipts in tobacco circulating as money backed 100 percent by the tobacco in the warehouse.

And (3) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_Revolution

The Industrial Revolution marks a major turning point in history; almost every aspect of daily life was influenced in some way.
"For the first time in history, the living standards of the masses of ordinary people have begun to undergo sustained growth ... Nothing remotely like this economic behavior has happened before"
With the transition away from an agricultural-based economy and towards machine-based manufacturing came a great influx of population from the countryside and into the towns and cities, which swelled in population.
Economic historians are in agreement that the onset of the Industrial Revolution is the most important event in the history of humanity since the domestication of animals and plants.
The invention of machinery played a big part in driving forward the British Agricultural Revolution. Agricultural improvement began in the centuries before the Industrial revolution got going and it may have played a part in freeing up labour from the land to work in the new industrial mills of the 18th century. As the revolution in industry progressed a succession of machines became available which increased food production with ever fewer labourers.
In terms of social structure, the Industrial Revolution witnessed the triumph of a middle class of industrialists and businessmen over a landed class of nobility and gentry.
The Industrial Revolution was a period from 1750 to 1850 where changes in agriculture, manufacturing, mining, transportation, and technology had a profound effect on the social, economic and cultural conditions of the times
The links show that one, wealth used to largely be a measure of agriculture(lands, crops and animals) one possessed. i've not said they did not have shekels, or gold. Those were not as important, vital as cattle. Even the northeners in Nigeria still operate slightly with such values. It didn't matter how much shekels the common individual had as compared to been rich in cattle and large barns. The links also show that many things were used as money, not just naira and silver. Even Solomon used food to make payment.

2Ch 2:8 Send me also cedar trees, fir trees, and algum trees, out of Lebanon: for I know that thy servants can skill to cut timber in Lebanon; and, behold, my servants shall be with thy servants,
2Ch 2:9 Even to prepare me timber in abundance: for the house which I am about to build shall be wonderful great.
2Ch 2:10 And, behold, I will give to thy servants, the hewers that cut timber, twenty thousand measures of beaten wheat, and twenty thousand measures of barley, and twenty thousand baths of wine, and twenty thousand baths of oil.
Jacob was paid wages in cattle by his uncle laban. It's was not a strange thing in those days. And it was rare to see someone not involved in subsistence agriculture. Even in Nigeria, in some parts of Nigeria, you still see Doctors, Nurses, Teachers etc who have farm. Why is it so hard to imagine that a scribe, or pharisee, or carpenter would have no farm 2000years ago?

This is not about what wealth was connected to - as wealth was also connected with slaves. If it was simply about what wealth was connected to, why didn’t God ask people to tithe slaves or the ‘increase’ in slaves from the slaves giving birth?

The standard and universally common measure of wealth was agric produce. It's not my fault that you don't know that.

It is tosh because you are saying ‘wealth’ was the focus - IT WASN’T. The focus was the increase God brought out of the HOLY LAND of ISRAEL and nothing else.

A result of reading too much antitithe nonsense. there is nothing like the HOLY LAND OF ISRAEL. The earth is the Lord's and the fullness thereof. And God increase everyman, not just farmers. It is God that gives power to get wealth, whether you work in the bank, in the lab, in the air, off-shore or on-shore.
1Sa 2:7 The LORD maketh poor, and maketh rich: he bringeth low, and lifteth up.

Do you know how to read? I don’t care for your opinions on this - simply show where tithing is described as the ‘most consistent’ in the bible or give up.

If you've checked the meaning of consistent, you would see that tithes was the most consistent of all the offerings given. It could be used by all, not just males or within a day or too like most other offerings, and it was sure to come.

No more than God did not command Christians to tithe - it’s an idea lost on people like you - self determination of giving, eschewing legalistic percentages.

Mal 3:10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.
Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
Mat 23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
Act 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
Act 25:8 While he answered for himself, Neither against the law of the Jews, neither against the temple, nor yet against Caesar, have I offended any thing at all.
Act 28:23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.
ithink i get where Goshen asked one of his questions now. Of course the storehouse is God's house, and God's house is the church, so "bring it on".

I knew it would come to this - in order to foster your own view, you are condemning selfless acts in the NT. Wonderful.

i'm not condemning anybody, i simply showed you what happened to them, and why their model of giving is not sustainable. We ought to learn from mistakes of others, not ignore it or live in denial.

Again with your road side economics - economic problems affected them, not because they sold some possessions, it affected everyone in Jerusalem.

i'll show you the passage. It seems you are been foggy about it.

Act 11:28 And there stood up one of them named Agabus, and signified by the spirit that there should be great dearth throughout all the world: which came to pass in the days of Claudius Caesar.
Act 11:29 Then the disciples, every man according to his ability, determined to send relief unto the brethren which dwelt in Judea:
It was a world wide economic problem, but it obviously affected the Jerusalem christians more adversely. People even gave out of their poverty when they saw a more frightening level of poverty. They were the only saints termed as "poor saints"
Rom 15:26 For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem.
When people like kunle and co [b]keep making nois[/b]e about selling our possessions and giving it to the less privilege, it is only right that i show that we exercise some caution, and look at the totality of the scriptures. i am not against giving, i give(i.e charity), but it's not a big deal to keep smacking the lips about, neither is it the gospel that Jesus came to give us.

The above is your answer to my comment (START QUOTE Jem1)"Stop trying to give uninformed people the IMPRESSION THAT ALL ISREALITES TITHED. A lot were EXEMPT and WERE NOT CONSIDERED ROBBERS OR CURSED neither were they constantly afraid of the DEVOURER. In fact THEY WERE AS BLESSED AS THOSE WHO had Land and tithed"(END QUOTE Jem1)

The GOSPEL BIBLE according to @Image!!!

Even though Malachi 3 PROVES it was tithes according to Lev 27:30,32,34; YOU (inorder to fulfill your agenda) would BLATANTLY lie in your interpretation of "this whole nation"

It's in every Bible, not just my Bible.

Malachi 1:1 The burden of the word of the LORD to Israel by Malachi.
Malachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
Malachi 3:9 Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.
How you guys try to twist this is bizzare. They'll say he was talking to priests, talking to pharisees, talking before new testament started. How convenient. Even the one you people have not cut off from the Bible, when we come to it, they will say it's addressed to Corinthian church, and other dumb excuses. THE WORD OF GOD IS FOR ALL OF US, from Genesis to Revelation. All scripture is profitable. All is for our learning, and our example. there is no separating one, or learning from Abraham without Levi, or vice versa. All scripture is our example
Heb 2:1 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.
i can smell that instead of some to sincerely consider the scriptures i alluded to, they would rather want to tear down and pick on the one i quoted. Anyways, Malachi was not written to any one tribe or colony of priests. Even the 'legalistic' Jews did not see it has for one tribe. it was their law, their prophets, their promise. And the contents of Malachi show that it was not even just for Israel, but for the whole world. It talks about the forerunner of the Saviour, talks of the comings of Christ, even of His future/2nd coming. Are those promises and prophecies to the priests alone or to the Levites. Let me brietly quote some.
Malachi 1:11 For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts.
Malachi 2:15 And did not he make one? Yet had he the residue of the spirit. And wherefore one? That he might seek a godly seed. Therefore take heed to your spirit, and let none deal treacherously against the wife of his youth.
Malachi 3:1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts. (Obviously referring to John the baptist. I don't think John was a promise to the tribe of Levi)

Malachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
Malachi 3:12 And all nations shall call you blessed: for ye shall be a delightful land, saith the LORD of hosts.
Malachi 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
Malachi 4:4 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.
Malachi 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
Malachi 4:6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

The passages show that this is God's Word for Israel, and the general principle of God's Word is that if God is speaking to, correcting or warning someone, He is saying it to all. It's naive to go and foolhardily repeat the same thing, claiming God was only correcting town A, or tribe B, or sect C, or Mr D not me.
Act 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

You know that the tithes referred to regarding ROBBING GOD were as DEFINED IN Lev 27.

HOW do we know this? See the items highlighted in my quote of Malachi 3 below.

(God is NOT A MAN @Image. He did NOT CURSE those who never broke HIS COMMANDMENT. He never cursed WAGE earners etc, i.e. people who didn't have the food items referred to below! He was not unaware of their existence! He just CHOSE NOT TO ask them to tithe, deal with it bro!

Mal 3:8 “Will a mere mortal rob God? Yet you rob me.“But you ask, ‘How are we robbing you?’“In tithes and offerings. 9 You are under a curse —your whole nation—because you are robbing me. 10 Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this,” says the Lord Almighty, “and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that there will not be room enough to store it. 11 I will prevent pests from devouring your crops, and the vines in your fields will not drop their fruit before it is ripe, ” says the Lord Almighty.

According to your lie, "this whole nation who are ROBBING GOD" NOW means that the follwoing Israelites were commanded!

Obviously you (@Image) would have to include/replace in your (@Image) version:

Malachi 3:10 "Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food (wages, shekels, gold, diamonds etc)in my house";

BECAUSE ONLY THEN would the groups below be part of this "whole nation" which you are reading out of context.

- Hired Workers did NOT tithe their wages
- Fishermen did not tithe
- Miners and the minerals were not tithed
- Carpenters/Construction Workers
- Traders who made/sold jewellery
- Priests
- Israelites without land e.g. the poor would receive tithe NOT PAY TITHE

I know you would prefer to HAVE PEOPLE BELIEVE that ALL Israelites tithed BECAUSE if they DIDN'T it WOULD SHOW UP THE LIE where Pastors teach people that ALL CHRISTIANS MUST TITHE EVERY INCOME/INCREASE or else they (Christians)are ROBBERS!!

God said the whole nation had robbed Him, jem 1 says its not the whole nation. It's not very hard for me to choose who to believe. you can continue with your conjectures, suppositions and ideas.

(GNB) A curse is on all of you because the whole nation is cheating me.
(GW) So a curse is on you because the whole nation is cheating me!

NOT every tenth (10%) was HOLY & BELONGED to God!!

If they Know that even the Israelites who were COMMANDED at Mount Sinai DIDNT HAVE TO TITHE EVERY INCOME, it puts paid to the lie that CHRISTIANS ARE ROBBERS IF THEY DONT TITHE EVERY INCREASE!

You know the groups above were not a part of this "whole nation" you are attempting to read OUT OF CONTEXT!

See more people below who DIDN'T HAVE TO TITHE

1. Those who's animals increased by less than 10! So if your animals increased by 6, you don't kill some so you can tithe. They didn't tithe at that point and WERE NOT ROBBERS
2. Those who were Gentiles (yes even gentile CHRISTIANS).

IT takes NOTHING from You to admit their practice in biblical times as confirmed by historical facts in the bible.

i will still like to know that portion of scriptures that says "NOT every tenth (10%) was HOLY & BELONGED to God".

Are you saying because Paul claimed to be the son of a pharisee, you also see yourself as the son of a pharisee? what exactly is the message here?

Paul claimed to be a Pharisee, i even bolded it, do you use eye-glasses? Or you just decided to pick and choose?

How does inspiration becomes a commandment? now you see why Kunle keep calling you 'olodo'

2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
(GW) Every Scripture passage is inspired by God. All of them are useful for teaching, pointing out errors, correcting people, and training them for a life that has God's approval.

(CEV) Everything in the Scriptures is God's Word. ALL OF IT IS USEFUL for teaching and helping people and for correcting them and showing them how to live.


If you noticed from these passages, i'm not dreaming up what i'm saying.

Not all the time sir. Tithe as a tenth was created by man, God did not say it will always be a tenth. If we follow God's definition of tithe (Leviticus), you find that that God's tithe is not always a tenth It ranges from zero to 10% with the possibility of increasing your total tithe cost to 12% when exercise the option to cash-in your tithe and pay additional penalty/fine of 2%. for example (edit: reference to Jem1 post above) the shepherd with an increase of 9 animals will pay zero tithe, one with an increase of let say 18 animals will submit one (about 6%) as tithe. If we decide to push it further, God's definition of 'annual tithe' will amount to a maximum of 20% (22% with penalty) and 30% every third year.

A self created/imposed obligation to render a tenth of your income to God via remittance to your pastor is not bad, what's bad is when the pastor preach this man made/defined ritual as God's instruction

Zikky what is the definition of a tithe? A tithe is one tenth, even the scripture uses the two words interchangeably.
Heb 7:4 Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.
Heb 7:6 But he whose descent is not counted from them received tithes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises.
i don't know if you people just talk to have the last post/word or something.

As should be common knowledge, my posts on this thread are numbered. i'll just like to make some few comments and additions for those that are sincere to learn, and not lazy to read and check up.

My bro, the SCRIPTURES YOU GAVE to show tithes as COMMANDED by God TO THE ISRAELITES on Mount Sinai WERE NOT JUST AGRIC PRODUCE are:
My answer:

@Image, to show you it was AGRIC PRODUCE, all YOU have to do is read a few verses down & see the following:

Obviously, no one is denying that tithes were given of crops and animals, the issue is that it involved MORE THAN crops and animals. if that's the point i'm trying to prove, i do not need to be proving or quoting that they gave tithes of crops and animals. we all agree to that ithink. What i showed or highlighted was the FACT that tithe was given in other forms other than crops and animals and it was not/NEVER rejected or disapproved. And i have consistently said that NOBODY would go to hell or be punished by God for giving tithes of things other than crops and animals. plus the Word of God NEVER FORBIDS tithe of things other than crops and animals, only antitihers do. i obey the Word of God, not antitithers.

So here we have the ONLY portion @Image can cling on to as EVIDENCE that GOD COMMANDED A TITHE OF items apart from AGRIC PRODUCE; i.e the PHARISEES EXAMPLE!

It was not a 'command' in the sense that you define commands. the passage simply shows that it was not absurd in the times of Jesus to give tithes, or to give them from one's income or gains.

(I believe if he was as fastidious as described, his saying he 'tithed' would mean the agric produce AS COMMANDED in Lev 27:30,32,34; afterall we interprete scripture with scripture. The hearers as Israelites would know Num 18, 2 Chron 3, Mal 3 etc and their everyday practice had ALWAYS SHOWN Moses' tithe as agric produce to be eaten)

If YOU (@Image) BELIEVE he gave MORE items than agric produce as God commanded,

Let me ask you;

IS THE PHARISEE NOW GOD TO GIVE THAT AS A COMMANDMENT??
IS THE PHARISEE NOW GOD TO GIVE THAT AS A COMMANDMENT??

the Israelites prided themselves in being children of Abraham, and it would not be odd for them to do things, or want to do things as Abraham did it.
Joh 8:39a They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. It was actually Christ that was talking here, and teaching that good works do not justify us. Tithing and fasting are good works, and by the grace of God, i am zealous of good works.

@thehomer

I'm not talking about rights but about what would be better for the child. This would mean that it would have been better for your ancestors who weren't Christians to have been killed before they became adults.

There is no way you would not mention rights, because no human can/should kill another human if he has no rights to. the only One that has rights to life taking is God, because He is the giver of life. how do you know that my ancestors were not christians? ithink i get your question though. You want to know if it would be better that all non christians be killed as babies. Well that would be impossible because nobody is born a christian, i mean a real christian not nominal christian like perhaps Bill Gates was born. We all have to make our choices when we become accountable, to either serve God(which is the purpose why He created us, or not serve God(making us useless to God's purpose and ready for destruction).

You do not have your own weather. If there is a hurricane going past your house, no matter how you adjust your air conditioner, if the path is right, it will disrupt "your weather". How is Adam to blame for hurricanes and earthquakes?
Tilted wrongly by one degree? Are you sure about that? Where is this research? One mistake by who? And just how big is this Garden of Eden?

Stop being such a drag, the simple point is that humans live better/more conveniently in developed and more knowledgeable areas than in undeveloped areas. Because of increase in knowledge, we don't have to be shivering in the house because it's winter, the house temperature can be conditioned. Today, some large places can be conditioned. Places can be so well lit you would barely know it is night. Before, in the night, nobody could work(at least legally). Our knowledge is putting us in more control as it were. If there was that extra, ground breaking discovery/knowledge, some sickness would not be epidemics or disasters. Some earth forming processes would not affect us. At least today, due to knowledge, humans are able to limit the effects of some "natural disasters" through warning signals, breakers, knowledge of prone zones etc.
When Adam gave ownership of the earth to satan, the world went out of course.
Psa 82:5 They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.
It is this earth instability that results in 'earth movements' of different magnitudes. God in His mercies has made them of one use or the other BTW. i hope you know that tsunamis are useful. Yeah, talking about the earth been tilted, i\ve read it somewhere before, not the internet. i don't have the time to search for it on the internet, i don't think i need the knowledge. Anyway, i googled something and this link at least shows that i'm not imagining things. http://www.weirdfacts.com/weird-science/3137-weird-science-2.html (see number 5)and http://www.greatfacts.com/index27.htm

Plus eden was big enough to be irrigated by 4rivers.

Gen 2:10 And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads.
Gen 2:11 The name of the first is Pison: that is it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold;
Gen 2:13 And the name of the second river is Gihon: the same is it that compasseth the whole land of Ethiopia.
Gen 2:14 And the name of the third river is Hiddekel: that is it which goeth toward the east of Assyria. And the fourth river is Euphrates.
River Euphrates still popularly holds its name, you can check it up. Or go to anywhere where you have a confluence of rivers(e.g Kogi state), you would notice it's not the size of a football field. And Adam and Eve were in charge of a paradise land that size.

It is not God's job to help people anymore? What you're talking about here is a callous or indifferent God not a good God.

It was never God's job to help people. Just because He keeps covering your butt and mistakes does not mean it is His job. God equipped Adam with ability to take care of himself and the whole earth. when you were a child, your parents helped you, washed your butt, your clothes, cooked your food etc. As you grew up, they started to allow you room for responsibility. that they saw you as mature and responsible doesn't mean they are callous and indifferent. they simply know they have trained you enough to take care of yourself and believe that you would be fine. God created man especially in His image, He made man wonderfully. Every human is a wondrous masterpiece built to conquer. god gave us all time and brains and bodies. he even gave us a free line to call on Him if we need help(called prayer). It's not His fault that many would not use their time or brain or body. Some people are using theirs and making 'progress' especially in the West. It's unfortunate though when we think we do not ever need God, leaving out the free line and the Word He gave us.

You're just making things up here. Adam was very brilliant? Did he know that microbes existed? I know that microbes are everywhere and have you wondered why so many children now live and why people live longer? Hint: A lot of it is due to understanding these microbes. Saying we have stress because of sin tells me that you don't understand stress or sin.

the point is that you think it is these microbes that are your major issues/problems, and i've shown/reminded you that these microbes are everywhere all the time. they are even good/useful to us in many ways. It is sin and satan that make tweaks that cause sicknesses and calamities. We don't see sin or satan, but we see microbes(thank God for research), and someone says it is microbes that caused your disease/sickness. the point is that is right in a sense, but the microbes are always around as it were. All satan needs to do if allowed is tweak a gene, remove a tissue, increase a chromosome etc and you would have all sort of sickness. That's a little on satan's part which i know you don;t believe exists. the other part is sin. Sin opens the way for satan and his various agents. Sin brought ignorance,and stress. It is the variants of ignorance and stress that produce the majority of sickness. Ignorance for instance can lead to AIDS, sickle cell, deformity, blindness, still birth. Note the bolded below.
Psa 82:5 They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.
And then stress. man was not made for stress. Stress came in as a result of the fall at eden. man now has to sweat and strain. He was working in Eden, sin is not what brought work like some think. Adam was working in Eden (i don't yet know a man or two humans so brilliant and powerful as to successfully maintain an airport on their own, yet Eden was bigger and more complex than any airport). God works, but man's fall brought sweat and stress. And it is stress that would bring you down than anything. go to the hospital and hear advice on rest, and see how they sedate patients so that they can get well. look at the eagle and see how it flies almost stresslessly, look at the horse and see how it works almost tirelessly. Angels operate in a better form than that, they are not tired like we humans. Yet man is just a little lower than the angels.

You're simply highlighting the incompetence of your God if this is how you punish ignorance in your own well created people

God punished and still punishes disobedience. And it's good that every human sees his wrong and corruption, and ask God for mercy and pardon, because that is the only way out of the mess we are into. God is going to destroy the world, and only those that believe in Jesus the Christ would not perish but have eternal life.

Still waiting for you to show me WHERE THE OTHER ITEMS (i.e. those that make up your assertion that it was NOT AGRIC PRODUCE) were COMMANDED AS TITHE. History does NOT SUPPORT YOUR NEW ASSERTION. If anyone had chosen to tithe other items, IT WOULD BE OF THEIR OWN VOLITION not as per command of the Lord. You cant make that as law for Christians. God's commanded tithe was from the produce of the land of Israel. That is the LETTER. Now if you (@Image)want to deviate from the letter, that's all well and good as YOU WERE NOT DESIGNED TO BE ABLE TO MEET THE LETTER ab initio (from the get go/from the beginning).

There is no place in the Bible that commands that tithes must be ONLY of agric produce, you are getting it twisted.

Stop trying to give uninformed people the IMPRESSION THAT ALL ISREALITES TITHED. A lot were EXEMPT and WERE NOT CONSIDERED ROBBERS OR CURSED neither were they constantly afraid of the DEVOURER. In fact THEY WERE AS BLESSED AS THOSE WHO had Land and tithed.

Mal 3:8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.
Mal 3:9 Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.

This is a blatant lie - even as far back as the time of Solomon, wealth was measured in silver and gold, as well as animals. No matter how you twist it - the biblical tithe was animals and crops, and nothing to do with the so called ‘agrarian economy’. The very same passage where crops and animals are mentioned, shekels (or money) were mentioned as the way to redeem a vow, even for the so called common man - if God wanted to tell the Israelites to tithe money he would have done so.

As is getting customary of you, you have simply chosen to believe a lie, pick and choose on my posts and try to catch me in my words. i said the world economy was largely agrarian,. . . .but it was not a measure of wealth for the common man, as to ask them to tithe of it AS of their consistent increase. i've not stated or tried to hide that shekels did not exist. i said it was not a primary or consistent source of income/increase for the common man. BTW, King Solomon was not a common man.The query you need to ask yourself is, was the world's economy larely agrarian or that's tosh indeed?

We can even talk about the parable of the talents - which could have been put in a bank to earn interest, yet you keep making futile attempts with this agrarian tosh.

Do not impute your own ideas into the bible - they do not stand up to scrutiny.

iguess you do not know the meaning of the word 'scrutiny'. i already said on this thread that money as existed in different forms in history, and that the basic form of measuring wealth had to do with agriculture. i though this was common bible knowledge, but seeing you are ignorant on these lines, i will quote a few scriptures that show that. These are not my ideas, they are clearly written in scripture. Perhaps you don't see it because you are too lazy to read it.

2Sa 12:1 And the LORD sent Nathan unto David. And he came unto him, and said unto him, There were two men in one city; the one rich, and the other poor.
2Sa 12:2 The rich man had exceeding many flocks and herds:


Gen 26:12 Then Isaac sowed in that land, and received in the same year a hundredfold: and the LORD blessed him.
Gen 26:13 And the man w[b]axed great[/b], and went forward, and grew until he became very great:
Gen 26:14 For he had possession of flocks, and possession of herds, and great store of servants: and the Philistines envied him.


Gen 12:16 And he entreated Abram well for her sake: and he had sheep, and oxen, and he asses, and menservants, and maidservants, and she asses, and camels.

Gen 30:43 And the man increased exceedingly, and had much cattle, and maidservants, and menservants, and camels, and asses.

Gen 36:7 For their riches were more than that they might dwell together; and the land wherein they were strangers could not bear them because of their cattle.

Gen 39:5 And it came to pass from the time that he had made him overseer in his house, and over all that he had, that the LORD blessed the Egyptian's house for Joseph's sake; and the blessing of the LORD was upon all that he had in the house, and in the field.

Deu 28:3 Blessed shalt thou be in the city, and blessed shalt thou be in the field.
Deu 28:4 Blessed shall be the fruit of thy body, and the fruit of thy ground, and the fruit of thy cattle, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep.
Deu 28:5 Blessed shall be thy[b] basket and thy store[/b].

Rth 2:1 And Naomi had a kinsman of her husband's, a mighty man of wealth, of the family of Elimelech; and his name was Boaz.
Rth 2:3 And she went, and came, and gleaned in the field after the reapers: and her hap was to light on a part of the field belonging unto Boaz, who was of the kindred of Elimelech.

1Sa 25:2 And there was a man in Maon, whose possessions were in Carmel; and the man was very great, and he had three thousand sheep, and a thousand goats: and he was shearing his sheep in Carmel.

Ecclesiastes 2:7 I got me servants and maidens, and had servants born in my house; also I had great possessions of great and small cattle above all that were in Jerusalem before me:

Job 1:3 His substance also was seven thousand sheep, and three thousand camels, and five hundred yoke of oxen, and five hundred she asses, and a very great household; so that this man was the greatest of all the men of the east.

2Ch 32:29 Moreover he provided him cities, and possessions of flocks and herds in abundance: for God had given him substance very much.

Luk 12:16 And he spake a parable unto them, saying, The ground of a certain rich man brought forth plentifully:
Luk 12:18 And he said, This will I do: I will pull down my barns, and build greater; and there will I bestow all my fruits and my goods.


Luk 16:1 And he said also unto his disciples, There was a certain rich man, which had a steward; and the same was accused unto him that he had wasted his goods.
Luk 16:5 So he called every one of his lord's debtors unto him, and said unto the first, how much owest thou unto my lord?
Luk 16:6 And he said, A hundred measures of oil. And he said unto him, Take thy bill, and sit down quickly, and write fifty.
Luk 16:7 Then said he to another, And how much owest thou? And he said, A[b] hundred measures of wheat[/b]. And he said unto him, Take thy bill, and write fourscore.

The verses above from the OT and the NT simply show that wealth was unmistakably connected to owning of crops and animals. Whatever else you had didn't really matter as owning cattle, sheep and co. The blessing and the blessed was in the abundance of animals and crops. How one would sincerely come up and call this tosh or my idea is surprising.

The NT church did not preach tithing as the most consistent form of giving, yet people’s needs were met. The bible does not label giving tithes as the most consistent way of giving - this is another human idea by yourself. The teaching is giving according to the need.

Do you know the meaning of 'consistent'? Tithing is the most consistent i know of, you can enlighten us if there are others.

So why not adopt their approach? Why should I listen to the likes of you who peddle tithing and not the practice of the first century church?

Unobviously, because their approach was not sustainable. God did not command them to go and sell their properties, Have you followed your GREAT examples in selling off your properties? iguess not. God commanded to go and preach the gospel to every creature. They stayed in Jerusalem selling their properties and distributing. It led to problems, as Ananias and Saphirra's, then the Grecian murmurings. And when economic problems came on the region, Jerusalem believers suffered it the most.
Act 11:29 Then the disciples, every man according to his ability, determined to send relief unto the brethren which dwelt in Judea:
They became the 'poor saints' as time went on.
Rom 15:26 For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem.

All these things are written for our example, and for our learning. Father Christmas lifestyle will only meet needs for a while, it's not a good model to follow.

Are you a Jew? Why should I as a Gentile Christian behave like a Jew? Before you know it, Image will be saying we must be circumcised in addition to giving tithes, after all he is ‘following’ Abraham’s example. A little leaven ruins everything.

Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Q.10

(a) Do we have example(s) of people tithing from their "income" in the bible?

Yes. Income is simply your profit, earning, gain, harvest.
(GNB) I fast two days a week, and I give you one tenth of all my income.'
(ISV) I fast twice a week, and I give a tenth of my entire income.'
(Darby) I fast twice in the week, I tithe everything I gain.
Luke 18v12

(b) How and Where does the bible defined the "church" as the "storehouse"?

i did not mention that the Bible defined the church as the store house.

(c) How does "storehouse" in Malachi translate or correspond with tithe giving of Abram to Melchizedek in Gen. 14?

i don't know, you may know since you are bringing it up. What i do know is that a tithe is a tenth, whether it's in Genesis or Malachi or Matthew or Revelation. It's that simple for everyone to understand.

(d) Is Melchizedek in Gen. 14 a "Storehouse" where modern tithe is taken to?

Your questions are very much irrelevant to our discussions. i don't understand or know what you are talking about. We give our tithes and offerings to God. God accepts them through the spiritual leaders He has given to us.

jmoore: ushers will just carry him out like a mad man

he sounds deranged already. This are the kind of people you suddenly find in the front begging pastor to forgive them and confess to witchcraft and family generational curses.

Goshen360: ^
Why? You wan answer and run away after Q10 abi. Bros, Abeg cool down. You will finish what you started in Jesus Name.

I have done twenty seven pages with you guys already. We have an agreement, remember?

where are you Goshen, question 10?

That's the reason Image123 will continue to tell you that Jesus was talking to him in Mathew 23:23? it's because he believes he's a pharisee

Act 23:6 But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.

You keep exposing yourself to be a very dishonest charlartan. The very verses you quote in acts [Acts 4:34 & 2:45] is an indictment on the churches today. Those verses let us know that church offerings are meant to be distributed to less priviledge church members and NOT for the apostles to feed fat like you erronously tried to pass off the same way our modern day church leaders greedily approriate most church collections to themselves contrary to the biblical example. The giving is Atcs was to help the less priviledge and not to take care of the apostles so stop trying to mis-lead readers on this forum. The verse also bear no resemblance to biblical tithes as we are clear that biblical tithes was not money contrary to th false impression you were trying to give.

You as usual are a liar. The 'offerings' were to ALL men, as every man had need., not to the less privileged. The church is not a charity organisation, it is the body of Christ.

Saying the whole of the scriptures are the commandments of God is misleading. Not all events, actions/act e.t.c in the bible were commanded by God. for e.g. you are saying it was God that commanded the Israelite to make the golden calf.

i said the whole of scriptures ARE. ALL SCRIPTURE is given by inspiration of GOD. The golden calf passage IS ALSO THE WORD OD GOD. Any sane mature christian would know from that passage that God detests idol worship. Any other?

Kindly cast your mind to a harvest season in Israel Centuries ago. The Olives and Grapes WOULD NOT KEEP as they were perishable (No fridge to store it), So they pressed some into oil and wine.

i ask again oo, Jem1, which of the crops are unperishable?

You should have quoted the 2 Chronicles 31:5 up to vs 6

2 Chron 31:5-6 As soon as the order went out, the Israelites generously gave the firstfruits of their grain, new wine, olive oil and honey and all that the fields produced. They brought a great amount, a tithe of everything. 6 The people of Israel and Judah who lived in the towns of Judah also brought a tithe of their herds and flocks and a tithe of the holy things dedicated to the Lord their God, and they piled them in heaps. (New International Version)

2 Chron 31:5-6 And as soon as the commandment came abroad, the children of Israel brought in abundance the firstfruits of corn, wine, and oil, and honey, and of all the increase of the field; and the tithe of all things brought they in abundantly.6 And concerning the children of Israel and Judah, that dwelt in the cities of Judah, they also brought in the tithe of oxen and sheep, and the tithe of holy things which were consecrated unto the Lord their God, and laid them by heaps.

Did you see that word ALSO in verse 6. ALSO means it is different. The tithe in verse 5 was brought by some, then some others ALSO brought their own. They were both ACCEPTABLE.

2Ch 31:5 And as soon as the commandment came abroad, the children of Israel brought in abundance the firstfruits of corn, wine, and oil, and honey, and of all the increase of the field; and the tithe of all things brought they in abundantly.
2Ch 31:6 And concerning the children of Israel and Judah, that dwelt in the cities of Judah, they also brought in the tithe of oxen and sheep, and the tithe of holy things which were consecrated unto the LORD their God, and laid them by heaps.
The people that lived outside Judah, like in Ephraim and Benjamin brought in verse 5. The people that lived IN Judah brought in verse 6. All this are written in English for us na.

'THERE' - means in time past (Abraham paid tithes to Melchisedec)

i thank God, it doesn't say "And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiv[b]ed[/b] them, of whom it is witnessed that he LIVETH." It says "And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiv[b]eth[/b] them, of whom it is witnessed that he LIVETH." He is alive and forever making intercession for us, and receiving tithes from guys like moi.
Heb 7:13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
Heb 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
Rev 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive forevermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Where is that Goshen? Goshennnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn where art thou? i saw you giving exposition on the other thread. Come and ask question 10 oooooooooo.

@THEHOMER

So in that case, it is better to kill that child. Please tell me, do you think women should be free to have abortions?

You don't have the knowledge, God does.

I'm not talking about who has the knowledge, I'm talking about what would be best for the child. Now, would you say it would have been better if you had been killed when you were two years old rather than growing up with a chance of not being a Christian? Keep in mind that the vast majority of people will be going to hell.

No human has the right to take another human's life. If i did not give my life to Christ and begin to serve Him and obtain eternal life, it would have been better that i died a baby or was never born. And it's the same thing for every human being. Thank God, i heard the gospel and i believed the gospel, and i'm saved from 'the wrath to come'. Jesus said " it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire."

Firstly, humans don't control the weather. Secondly, you're still sidestepping the issue because you're now blaming people for the natural disasters on the planet that God supposedly created for the benefit of humans. Would you blame a 2 year old child for injuring himself with a broken bottle?

i said we control OUR weather, not THE weather. What i meant i explained. That is you can be in a place like your home or office and decide whether the room should be 32C or 16C, it has not always been like that. i said we can avoid, or control or even neutralise, is that blame? If anyone should be blamed, maybe Adam. But we are in it together now, so the solution is what you should be looking for, not who is at fault. Adam blamed Eve, Eve blamed the serpent. They should simply have been honest and accepted their faults. Well today, the world is out of course and we experience some things that we didn't have to experience in the first place. Do you know that from researchers point of view, if the earth tilted wrongly by one degree, it would be inhabitable because the equator region would become too hot and the poles will be too cold? That's just one more degree out of course BTW, yet the world is already out of course as stated in the Word of God. So you should not expect everything to function as normally as it was meant to. The Bible says it is God that by His mercy holds the world by His power. One tiny chancy mistake and the world would be destroyed. And Adam was not a 2 year old child, He was a man created in God's image with power over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth, and ability to manage a garden the size of Eden, replenish the earth with the same blueprint and subdue the earth.

What if the tale of the wilderness was just a myth? Why wouldn't they be disasters in heaven? Why doesn't God control those events here on earth to avoid disasters? Why didn't he wipe out malaria?

God already gave man that job, but He passed it on to the devil. Now, we are struggling and discovering to get it back. It is not God's job, He already delegated it. If God decides to protect anyone, it's an act of mercy, not a duty or our right. And He does have mercy on all of His creatures including you. Infact, you are only alive because of God's mercies, same thing me BTW.

Are you seriously telling me that Adam could control the weather, earthquakes and microbes? Are you serious?

Yep, Adam was more brilliant than any man would ever be. We can only try, or wait till you get to Heaven if you would. Do you know that some human beings can now direct the wind to a degree? What of water courses. Microbes are everywhere mr. They are in your mouth, in your body, everywhere. It's not every microbe or every quantity that causes sickness. i heard that during a kiss, about 270 bacteria colonies are exchanged. Every hour, one billion cells in the human body is replaced, one billion. Two million red blood cells die every second in you. Find out the amount of bacteria inside your intestines. Microbes are not your real issues my man. i tell you what, more than 70% of diseases are caused or enhanced by STRESS. And we have stress because of sin. Go and figure.

Gen 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
Gen 3:18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

@Jem1

So even though you’ve been insisting they were mainly agrarian, you insist they MUST HAVE BEEN COMMANDED TO TITHE OTHER STUFF. Even though HISTORY does not bear you witness that the Israelites were COMMANDED TO tithe other stuff. (Obviously we know only Israelites with Land TITHED, all the gold & silver from Egypt was not tithed!).

i'm not insisting that they were agrarian, they were. And their measure of wealth was in basically crops and animals. You could not find a rich man without crops and animals. Greatness was usually a measure of how many thousand goats, sheep and cattle you had. that's undeniable, check up on your history. Todays wealth is not in sheep and fowls, it's in cash, and you should learn to honour the Lord with your wealth, your substance. He is still the One that gives you power to get wealth. Tithe was not only given in crops and animals as i have undeniably shown from the scriptures. Once we know the purpose, the spirit of something, it's expected that we act responsible to that knowledge. Tithing is simply to take care consistently of God's ministers. The basic needs of man are food clothing and shelter. The priests had guaranteed shelter, they had lands and cities. they had guaranteed clothing, the people gave them cloth, and material. God provided their food with their tithes. If you gave them money to buy food, then you had to add a fifth(Lev27). Perhaps, because you stress them to go and buy the food(or like someone jokingly remarked "money for transport". Today, everybody needs money than ever before, right? We have so many things to do with money than they ever had. there are bills to pay, education, transport, healthcare, electricity, recharge card, even the food, clothing and shelter etc. BTW, the gold and silver from Egypt was given.

Exo 36:5 And they spoke unto Moses, saying, The people bring much more than enough for the service of the work, which the LORD commanded to make.
Exo 36:6 And Moses gave commandment, and they caused it to be proclaimed throughout the camp, saying, Let neither man nor woman make any more work for the offering of the sanctuary. So the people were restrained from bringing.
Exo 36:7 For the stuff they had was sufficient for all the work to make it, and too much.
Obviously, if just 10% was needed, they would not disappoint.

Okay, let’s add to the letter by hypothetically agreeing the COMMANDMENT WAS TO TITHE ALL THINGS.

There is no need to add, it's already there.
2Ch 31:5 And as soon as the commandment came abroad, the children of Israel brought in abundance the firstfruits of corn, wine, and oil, and honey, and of all the increase of the field; and the tithe of all things brought they in abundantly.

It therefore means ACCORDING TO THE hypothetical LETTER, Christians MUST tithe OR ELSE, Malachi CURSES including the devourer will come and get them. They MUST keep to the letter as there is no difference between ‘TITHING COMMANDED TO THE ISRAELITES’ and ‘TITHING COMMANDED according to the SPIRIT TO THE CHRISTIANS’.

What is this Malachi curses you keep referring to? i don't even recall me quoting Malachi all through this thread!!!! The curses are not just because of tithes. Curses abound on the head of the unjust. Anyone that is unjust is cursed, whether NT or OT.
Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
2Pe 2:14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: a heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:
Anyone not living under the righteousness of Christ is cursed, forget tithes.

So WHERE do you draw the line? Is it only when Pastors re-baptised priests get their share? Why STOP there? Because if you do and IGNORE tithing for widows, orphans, the tither, 7th year (and 50th year) tithe holiday, YOU HAVE a new LAW/LETTER presented as if it WERE the SPIRIT of the Law even more PAINFUL on the vulnerable than the LETTER. It’s happening even TODAY.

That's why i'm doing my best and leaving the rest for you na. You can begin to teach it if that's your calling.

You begin to support a system that TEACHES that a tither’s DYING CHILD MUST NOT be treated in hospital with his tithe set aside for the pastor!

i have not supported such a system. Giving 10% of your income DOES NOT stop you from helping a dying child. The 90% left with you can take care of the situation 9times more than your 10%. 10% is not the issue, the heart is the issue. If a tenth would take care of the issue, very simple. Simply give a tenth to the issue, and another tenth to God, shikena. You would still have 80% to boot. 80% is still an 'A'.

I would urge you to read the story of the GOOD SAMARITAN. I apologise but you must be careful as you are beginning to resemble the Levites and the Priest in Luke 10:25-37

vs37 “And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise”.

Read more about Jesus in the Gospels, He esteemed people above laws; ARE YOU FOLLOWING His example or preaching another gospel?

You can give your tithes and still be a good samaritan. i do that by God's grace, all the time. Yes, you can. You can give tithe and still esteem people, they are not exclusive to one another. Abraham gave tithes and still esteemed people. You live in a better covenant established on better promises, you have grace, the name of Jesus, the Word of God complete, the Holy Ghost, you can surely do better. You underrate yourself greatly, i must state.

I agree with PasKun on Heb 7. Heb7:18 talks of disannulling the commandment because of its weakness & unprofitableness; it includes us NOT having to give tithes as of old. Or else you may have to go and find a LEVI!

i don't need a levite brother, i already found a priest like Melchisedec that collected tithes too. His order collects tithes too. There He receiveth them, i'm glad He does. Heb 7:13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.. i got me a priest after the Order of Melchisedec.

You said the apolstles didn’t ask for tithe cos they had their bellies full from the 100%! This god of the belly what wont it cause!

i feel dizzy, i don't recall saying that.

My bro, pls read what they did with the things given to them, they didn’t appropriate IT for themselves unlike today!! You should have highlighted what they did with it lol?

What do you mean by they didn’t appropriate IT for themselves, they didn't spend out of it?
Act 2:45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.
They spent it together my dear, they were not supraspiricoco as not to have need. You know what i silently think? They even got them the tithes in the end. Because if everyone really truly gave the apostles what they had, then it means that the priests also gave the apostles the tithes that they received.
Act 4:32 And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that aught of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.
Act 6:7 And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem greatly; and a great company of the PRIESTS were obedient to the faith.
There was so much to share daily that it created problem for them. Showing that it's not a sustainable lifestyle or model. God has not called us to having all things in common(sounds nice and charitable). God has called us to holiness, and to wisdom and faithfulness with the resources He has placed in our disposal. You can't ensure that there is no lack forever, you can do your bit. It's good to give, be charitable and all that. But please remember the words of Jesus Christ, For the poor always ye have with you, and For the poor shall never cease out of the land. So, give to that proverbial dying child if you have to, it still doesnot stop you from giving to God, or to His servants though.

@Jem1

First up, regarding Lev 27:30,32,34; Do put things in context, we were defining tithes NOT redeeming them, the verses define the items to tithe. When we are discussing redeeming the tithes from AGRICULTURAL PRODUCE by adding a fifth, of course we have to include 31 & 33.

The passage's context is about redeeming, jem1.
Lev 27:13 But if he will at all redeem it, then he shall add a fifth part thereof unto thy estimation
Lev 27:15 And if he that sanctified it will redeem his house, then he shall add the fifth part of the money of thy estimation unto it, and it shall be his.
Lev 27:19 And if he that sanctified the field will in any wise redeem it, then he shall add the fifth part of the money of thy estimation unto it, and it shall be assured to him.
Lev 27:20 And if he will not redeem the field, or if he have sold the field to another man, it shall not be redeemed any more.
Lev 27:27 And if it be of an unclean beast, then he shall redeem it [/b]according to thine estimation, and shall add a fifth part of it thereto: or if it be not redeemed, then it shall be sold according to thy estimation.
Lev 27:28 Notwithstanding no devoted thing, that a man shall devote unto the LORD of all that he hath, both of man and beast, and of the field of his possession, shall be sold or [b]redeemed: every devoted thing is most holy unto the LORD.
Lev 27:29 None devoted, which shall be devoted of men, shall be redeemed; but shall surely be put to death.
Lev 27:31 And if a man will at all redeem aught of his tithes, he shall add thereto the fifth part thereof.
Lev 27:33 He shall not search whether it be good or bad, neither shall he change it: and if he change it at all, then both it and the change thereof shall be holy; it shall not be [b]redeeme[/b]d
The passage is strewn with instructions on what to redeem, what not to redeem. That's the major point/focus of the passage. And it states that the tithe of crops can be redeemed but the tithe of animals couldn't be redeemed. It's not a command stating "Thou shalt only tithe of crops and animals". That's not the message in the passage, except we want to deceive ourselves. And the passage so proves that tithe could be turned into money. How you all miss that baffles me. the so called types of tithe could be turned into money if situation demanded it, even in the graceless OT

Obviously vs 34 says “these are the COMMANDMENTS God gave Moses in Sinai”, there’s no escaping it bro, the definition and how to redeem them were COMMANDED by the LORD on Sinai.

No problem, they are the commandments of God. But what are the commandments? The whole of scriptures are the commandments of God, aren't they? Are the commandments of God limited to Leviticus 27v3something?
Lev 26:46 These are the statutes and judgments and laws, which the LORD made between him and the children of Israel in mount Sinai by the hand of Moses.
Obviously, these too are the commandments of God. The whole of Leviticus is. the whole Bible is
Psa 119:6 Then shall I not be ashamed, when I have respect unto all thy commandments
Gen 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
And the commandment on tithe in Leviticus was that the crop tithe can be redeemed, but the animal tithe could not be redeemed. it doesn't speak of the oil tithe, or the wine tithe or the money tithe, or the all that i possess tithe. Even the pharisee had enough sense to know that he could tithe of all that he possesed. Jacob knew that too.
Gen 28:22 And this stone, which I have set for a pillar, shall be God's house: and of all that thou shalt give me I will surely give the tenth unto thee.
Abraham gave tithes of all. And God said in Malachi "Bring Me ALL the tithes". Why you base a doctrine on a figment of your imagination is compelling.

My brother, Olives and grapes are perishable, they are usually pressed for the oil and wine and can easily be stored for tithing rather than let them spoil. They weren’t quickly tithed at harvest and then re-tithed after making the oil and wine.

What sort of point is that? The crops and animals tithed are unperishable? The scriptures simply reveal that if you worked in a place where stuff was processed, you could still tithe. You work in a wheat factory you can tithe, in a buscuit factory, chocolate factory, cadbury, dangote, flourmills you can tithe. And even if you are paid in buscuits, you have the liberty of turning it into money. Someone(Goshen ithink) was saying something of only tithing of what God gave increase, i was just grinning. What does God not increase. you think God is not the One that increases people that work in the bank and in the government, schools and oil companies? you think a man can receive anything except it be given him by God? You think the farmers don't need to put in effort, and sound agricultural systems, and irrigation, and fertilizer, and right breeding, right feeding? You think God is a magician, I've increased you solely so tithe?
2Ch 31:5 And as soon as the commandment came abroad, the children of Israel brought in abundance the firstfruits of corn, wine, and oil, and honey, and of all the increase of the field; and the tithe of all things brought they in abundantly.

Now concerning the mint anise and cumin, I think you are the one reading into the word by saying the tithe there WAS MEANT FOR THE PRIESTS! Jesus NEVER clarified that in Matt 23:23. There were other tithes e.g. for the poor, festival etc., WHY is the one to LEVITES more important to you, WHY ESTEEM IT SO MUCH it beclouds your judgement? SO ACCORDING TO YOU “these you should do” means @Image and all Christians MUST GIVE 10% to their pastors % NOT THE POOR TITHE? That sir, IS A NEW MAN MADE COMMANDMENT.

It's the most important in the Word of God. It's the only one we have record that it was observed. Show me a record of where the other tithing were done/observed? All the places that mention people giving tithes in the scriptures, it is the "temple'tithe". Even when God was talking about robbing Him, it was the 'temple tithe'. In Nehemiah, Chronicles, they all refer to the "temple tithe". There is no one direct reference to the other tithes, it's not hard to deduce which was most important in the Word of God.

@thehomer

I know the difference the question is do you? What idea of justice would fit killing a child for an alleged sin committed by their ancestor?

The idea that the child would also grow up corrupt and worse if left alive. The idea that the child had better die than grow up, live a few wicked years and spend eternity in damnation. It's a very fair choice.

No, judgement on the whole earth by an omnipotent and beneficent entity makes no sense.
If it is better to die a 2 year old and all that, then I simply have to ask if you go around killing all toddlers you find around you in order to save them from becoming corrupt. If you think it is fair and to be preferred, then I wonder if you would encourage people to go around killing children.

Humans beings don't have enough knowledge as to know who would repent and who would not, or who would come out of corruption. And we are not the Judge remember, perspective. God is the Judge. Life belongs to God, and He owns the right and prerogative to determine when to take it, people don't have such right.

Again, you're shifting your argument. If you wish to claim that such disasters will be useful in the future, then you really need to do much more than what you're saying here.

i'm not making such claims. i'm saying if we had a bit more knowledge, we may know how to avoid them, even neutralise them or control them. Like today, we can control our weather. We can be cool all day, even when its scorching hot outside, and vice versa. That's increase in knowledge, it was not always like that in the past.

Are there tsunamis, earthquakes and tornadoes in heaven?

i don't know, but if there are, they would not be disasters. If you've read your Bible, you would recall the children of Israel in the wilderness at mount Sinai. There was fire and shakings ang quakings, but it was all controlled by God as not to be a natural disaster. Jesus Christ controlled storms. If man had retained perfect fellowship with God as in Eden, we would control these things if ever they had to occur. Like i showed you from scriptures, the earth is out of course as it were.

Now you're saying humans don't have the sense to use them to our advantage. Well why didn't God give humans the sense to use it to their advantage? Why does he use them to freely kill people on such a massive scale?
Finally, please tell me whether or not you agree with me that these events are simply a result of living on a planet such as earth.

Like i've explained, God gave man the sense, but man lost it all during the fall episode at Eden. Man died. It's maybe like loosing your brain(though man lost much more than a brain), memory lapse/collapse. And then having to be retaught from the basics of what is your name, 1+1. And we are yet to get to where Adam was, a position where just two people could efficiently man and maintain a paradise the size of Eden, empowered to replenish the earth, and have dominion over everything on earth and in the sea. The events are not just a result of living on a planet earth, it's partly, but that's not the only cause. the earth is out of course, and the fall of man leaves him unable to cope with what he was initially created with the capacity to cope with.

@jem1

Matt 23:23

- Thank God Jesus said 'mint, anise & cummin' (food crops) CONFIRMING God's commandment in Lev 27:30,32,34.

Thank God we don't have to keep the letter of 'mint, anise etc'.

But bro Image, why 10% of all income knowing Jesus WASN'T giving a NEW COMMANDMENT TO KEEP TO A NEW LETTER (i.e. Tithes of CASH/Income)

Jesus said "...These (THE LETTER i.e. mint, anise etc) you ought to have done..."

If you want to keep to the SPIRIT since you CAN'T KEEP THE LETTER

WHY hold on to 10%? WHY replace mint, anise etc with CASH

WHY, especially when the SPIRIT is 'TAKING CARE OF THEM WHO SERVE' & NOT THE 10%?

You are jumping into the same mistake Again. That Jesus mentioned mint and anise, or said THESE doesn't mean that He only meant mint and anise. Of course you would readily agree that He also meant animals even though He didn't say. You would agree that He meant many other crops also, not just the THESE specifically mentioned.
Lev 27:30 And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the LORD's: it is holy unto the LORD.
Lev 27:32 And concerning the tithe of the herd, or of the flock, even of whatsoever passeth under the rod, the tenth shall be holy unto the LORD.
Lev 27:34 These are the commandments, which the LORD commanded Moses for the children of Israel in mount Sinai.
i see you keep cutting out verses 31 and 33 which are the links to the essence of that passage and the chapter as a whole. The chapter and book as a whole are the commandments God gave Moses. There's absolutely no point emphasizing that tithe is the commandment. the chapter was dealing with REDEMPTION of various things. they are the 'laws concerning redemption' as it were, not exactly some focus on tithes. If you insist that the passage is the exclusive and only God's "command" or God's tithe as you guys call it. Don't you see that it doesn't mentionoil or wine, and that the Israelites also gave tithes of oil and wine?
Neh 13:12 Then brought all Judah the tithe of the corn and the new wine and the oil unto the treasuries.
Wine and oil is processed, and it's not the Lord's increase(whatever on God's earth that means). You my friend have more letter in you than the OT Jews. The Spirit of the Word of God on tithes is basically that tithes is meant to CONSISTENTLY take care of God's workers, simple. Once that is settled fine.

Are you better than God who allowed tithers to eat their tithe even in the days of the letter Deut 14:23? Widows, Orphans and the poor were even collecters of the tithe sef Deut 26:12...No come be like the levites/Priest who were in trouble in Mal 3:5 “So I will come to put you on trial. I will be quick to testify against..those....who oppress the widows and the fatherless...,” says the Lord Almighty."

By restricting people, you begin to lean too heavily on Levitical Tithing which you are trying to avoid by keeping away from the LETTER.

Contrary to what mischievous antitithers teach, God never commanded the Israelites to eat (what has been called on this thread) the temple tithe. They don't mention in their deceitful teachings that there is one 'festival tithe'. they just say you are supposed to eat your tithe.

Therefore,

Heb 7 wasn't argument for TITHING to a new order of Melchisedec.

The mention of tithing was incidental. It was to show the the LEGITIMACY of Christ's Priesthood even though He was from JUDAH and Not a Levi. It was to show the COMPLETE nature of the death of Jesus in redeeming us by bearing our sins (a priestly function), allowing us access to the throne of grace.

Heb 7 showed the following:

1. Priests didn't necessarily have to come from the tribe of Levi as there was PRECEDENCE for Priests outside the COMMANDED tribe of Levi.
2. According to Heb 7; Jesus didn't come from the tribe of Levi but IS a PRIEST
3. His legitimacy can be confirmed as in times past of old, their Partriach Abraham had encountered Melchisedec
4. Melchisedec WASN'T from the tribe of Levi (same as Jesus) but was a PRIEST.
5. The former (Melchisedec) CAN be said to be superior to LEVI as
i. Levites in Abraham Paid tithes to Melchisedec
ii. Therefore if Jesus is Like Melchisedec
iii. His Priesthood is NOT INFERIOR to Levites
6. Now, one of the functions of the Levitical Priesthood was to offer SACRIFICES to TAKE AWAY SINS
7. There was a change to the LAW so our Lord Jesus (who was from the tribe to Judah now of the order of Melchisedec)
8. Operates legitimately in the office of a Priest and
8. Takes away OUR SINS legitimately and completely ONCE AND FOR ALL.


Heb 7:25 "Therefore he is able to save completely[c] those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them. 26 Such a high priest truly meets our need—one who is holy, blameless, pure, set apart from sinners, exalted above the heavens. 27 Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself."

Smooth, i don't think i would say it better. These is what Hebrew 7 was about, not about the uselessness or usefulness of tithe, like kunle loves to argue blindly.





P.S i've addressed all the other questions and remarks one way or the other in this thread. Where is Goshen and question number 10??

@debosky

A fixed percentage is the letter of the law - can you show me any other such mathematical percentage in use in Christianity today?

A percentage would be a number, not a letter. Check my post to bernimoore anyway, i've talked on that. There is giving in proportion. Tithe is a form of giving in proprtion. Another is giving as God as prospered you.

1Corinth 16:2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.
He that soweth sparingly shall reap sparingly. He that soweth bountifully shall reap bountifully. That's new testament. Heck, that's proportional.

This is especially apparent in YOUR view where you talk about tithing before the law - the tithe before the law was not for supporting the workers in the temple, so it is the tithe of the law that is directed at care for those who work in the temple. So in spite of your claims to tithe before the law, the purpose of your tithe (to care for temple workers) is ONLY identical to that under the law, not that before it.

i'll say it again, the practice of tithing has been before the law. tithing is used to take care of temple workers. A priest is a temple worker, or you think Melchisedec was figure-head priest? Priests were supported before Levi, i already gave a Bible passage on that from the time of Joseph. Read your history, were you the one o told that i would not spoon feed? i've already overfed you.

Can you measure Mercy, Judgement and Faith in percentages? Does the bible tell you to have 10% faith or exercise Mercy 20% of the time? They are clearly not in the same class. The flaw in your approach is by attempting to distinguish tithe from giving - such a distinction does not exist

They are clearly not in the same class, yet Jesus Christ put them in the same class? are you the Christ we have been waiting for?
ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. You can not tear it from my Bible mr. i just said Giving is giving, it's not competing with each other. i give tithe and i also give according to need. they are not mutually exclusive, then you say they are clearly not in the same class, yet you claim i'm the one trying to distinguish tithe or make it distinct. i said they are NOT MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE, have you been taking wine?

@debosky

Were the Levites dead when Paul said that they gave tithes in the loins of Abraham? I don't see the difference.

Abraham is dead - if we apply the 'living faith' principle, should we not stop dwelling on the 'past' which talks about percentages and just talk about giving?

Yeap, some generation were dead, and the ones still alive were still actively receiving and giving tithes. the present still talks about percentages and proportions, tithing is a form of giving. Abraham GAVE tithes.

While I don't agree with your interpretation of the passage, I'll not get into that right now. If tithes are supposed to be present continuous as you claim, why didn't Jesus give us instructions about how to give tithes? Of all the things he taught his disciples, surely such a present continuous act would have been taught to the disciples (in terms of money) not just when referring to mint and cumin?

Tithing is a minor issue in the law, its plain common sense for any responsible member of the body of Christ. Christ did not talk about many things, and not all that He talked about was recorded, but He trusted His holy Spirit to teach us as we go on.

Luke 16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.
Matthew 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfill all righteousness. Then he suffered him.
Matthew 23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciple[/b]s,
Jesus is the Word of God made flesh. He said to search the scriptures, as they testified of Him. he was in agreement with the law.

PS - the argument of 'wealth' being in animals will not work here - clearly in the time of Jesus MONEY/gold/silver were the measures of wealth.

e.g Luk 12:16 And he spake a parable unto them, saying, [b]The ground of a certain rich man brought forth plentifully:
Luk 12:17 And he thought within himself, saying, What shall I do, because I have no room where to bestow my fruits?
Luk 12:18 And he said, This will I do: I will pull down my barns, and build greater; and there will I bestow all my fruits and my goods.

OR


Luk 16:1 And he said also unto his disciples, There was a certain rich man, which had a steward; and the same was accused unto him that he had wasted his goods.

Luk 16:5 So he called every one of his lord's debtors unto him, and said unto the first, how much owest thou unto my lord?
Luk 16:6 And he said, A hundred measures of oil. And he said unto him, Take thy bill, and sit down quickly, and write fifty.
Luk 16:7 Then said he to another, And how much owest thou? And he said, A hundred measures of wheat. And he said unto him, Take thy bill, and write fourscore.
No matter how it is twisted, it will be a disservice to history to deny that up to about 120 years ago, the world economy was largely agrarian, and that most farming was subsistence agriculture. There was no richest man in billions of naira and millions of dollars. Of course there was precious metals like gold,brass etc, but it was not a measure of wealth for the common man, as to ask them to tithe of it AS of their consistent increase.

On second thoughts, I'll ask a question on your interpretation - who are those giving tithes that are 'receiveth' in 'present continuous'? Does Hebrews tell us?

Heb 7:8 And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.
Who do you think they are? for me, i don't think it is dead people giving tithes, i think it's living people giving.

Giving should be according to the need, not any percentage. If the care is the focus, then the percentage should not enter into the discussion.

you are entitled to your opinion, i have written what is in the Bible OT and NT. The care is not the only focus, the CONSISTENCY too matters. Tithing is the most consistent form of giving i know of. Do you wish to have income consistently? Do you wish to be sure that something is coming in for you and your family at the end of the month/day/year? If you do, then love your church workers as yourself.

There may be better uses of such funds outside the Church for example, why must it go there if there are more pressing needs elsewhere?

WHy and how is this so hard to reason? When you give a tenth, you still have 90% left with you, HELLOOOO. If you feel that there are better uses to which a tenth can be put, simply give another tenth for such noble uses. You would still have a whopping 80% to yourself. You can even give the whole 90% na to such pressing needs.
The old testament priests must have been in Heaven compared to today's. They just dey enjoy dey go. Yet people did not because of that take their tithes and offerings to where they were 'better uses', church don suffer ooo. No wonder that phrase "poor as church rat".

If a Church (i.e. the members) decide of their own volition to set aside a fixed perecentage of their income, then there's no issue with that. We must stick to what the bible taught - we are not taught of the NT church collecting tithes to care for those in full time work. They were supported alright, but not based on any fixed percentage.

And the tithe passages are no more part of the Bible, or are not given by the inspiration of God? You can't really expect the first century church to be giving tithes to the apostles. They gave more than tithes, why flog a dead horse then? The Levites were still functioning and receiving tithes. Many Jewish christians were still meeting in the temple and observing some jewish rites(like Paul did).
Act 2:46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
Act 3:1 Now Peter and John went up together into the temple at the hour of prayer, being the ninth hour.
Act 5:25 Then came one and told them, saying, Behold, the men whom ye put in prison are standing in the temple, and teaching the people.
Act 5:42 And daily in the temple, and in every house, they ceased not to teach and preach Jesus Christ.
Act 21:26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them.
ithink it would be absurd for them to be collecting their own tithe on one end of the temple as the Levites were collecting theirs the other end. By the way, they were so overfed. People sold all and gave them.
Act 4:34 Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold,
Act 2:45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.
i don't know which present day church where this kind of thing obtains. And it would be superfluous to ask for a tenth, when you have been given 100%.

@ApostlePat

As an Apostle in the pulpit, I used to teach my church tithing before now but I was convinced beyond any contradiction that I had been teaching God's people the wrong tithing (out of fear or greed for support of church projects and some other lifestyles) but forgetting that most of these my fears and church projects can also be funded by sacrificial giving from God's people which in some cases with some people can be more or less than if they should have tithed.

Well, if you say you taught out of fear, i agree with you that you should not teach anything out of fear. Teach in faith, faith in the infallible Word of God. what is 'sacrificial' about giving less than 10% of one's income Am i seeing double? Abraham was ready to give his son, you that are supposed to have more grace, live in a better covenant, you are here reasoning that less than 10% of one's income is sacrificial giving. Abegi, tell that to the frogs in the gutter. Oh, you can also tell the average antitither, he believes anything that does not support tithes.

When we put God's people too very much under a financial pressure (That is, we demand tithe, we demand offering[/b]s, we also demand [b]sacrificial givin[/b]g, we demand [b]seed offerings and still expect these families to support the MoG) plus the fact that these families also have their own personal financial projects to execute. We have so much put God's people under bondage to heavy yolk and the result is the vast larger percentage of Christians that are still living in poverty or below $2 a day.

Let's be clear here, are you against giving in general or against tithes? You can't mention all that 'load' in bold, and blame everything on the tithe. The tithe is not the issue in your concerns, it is the inconsiderate ASKings of your particular church that is the issue. Reduce your "we demand" on the congregation, and allow them to fulfill the basics, teach them on money management instead of collecting and collecting. Where do you get the statistics that the vast larger percentage of Christians are still living in poverty or below $2 a day? just curious.

Kindly go back to the Lord and study this matter more. The truth is not hidden and never far from us. The truth of tithe might not suite you and your denomination but take the grace of God and let go of your own works. If the truth contradicts your church teachings, this is the reason we are called to the son-ship of our Lord, to obey and let go our self. Every one of us will stand before the judgment sit of Christ.

lovely advice, i'd also like to serve it to you, i'm taking the advice too.

@ApostlePat

You are very guilty of all these your tithe teachings in the sense that you are mixing the levitical tithing system with the Melchizedek's tithing. The two are far from each other, different and doesn't go together. You can't take the Melchizedek's tithe to take care of the Levite and also you cannot take the levites tithe to take care of Melchizedek.

There is nothing like mixing, the Bible is the Word of God. If you are going to divide the Word of God, then you should learn to RIGHTLY divide it. i've talked on tithe as a whole in scriptures, not just from one perspective of Melchi, or Levi, or this or that. Take all the tithings done or spoken of in the Bible and learn from them, not in isolation. there is a reason God gave us the whole Bible. If you decide to make laws for yourself, don't make the same laws for me, i obey God's Word, not ApostlePat's laws of "You can't take the Melchizedek's tithe to take care of the Levite and also you cannot take the levites tithe to take care of Melchizedek" found nowhere in the Word of God.

Melchizedek wasn't supported or taken care of by Abraham's tithe, he was simply given tithe by Abraham. On one hand when you teach, you will say tithe existed before the Law (referring to Abraham and Melchizedek tithe) and on the other hand, you will come back to Levitical tithe and justify it with that of Abraham tithe that existed before the Law. Both are simply not the same.

Who said? It's history that priests were supported, even pagan priests. Priests usually had a special allotment. Check out even in Egypt.
Gen 47:22 Only the land of the priests bought he not; for the priests had a portion assigned them of Pharaoh, and did eat their portion which Pharaoh gave them: wherefore they sold not their lands.
People generally supported priests in the time of old. Taht's what Jacob was thinking of doing when he mentioned giving tithes. It was not unusual to give tithe to priests even among pagans.

Abraham tithe was taken from spoils of war, Levitical tithe was not.

Abraham tithe was from items of war, levittical tithe was from what God himself increased

Abraham tithe was done once, Levitical tithe was done yearly, third year, etc

Abraham tithe did not support Melchizedek, Levitical tithe supported them and the priest

Abraham tithe was in one form or type, Levitical tithe was in three forms or types (tithe eaten, tithe with the poor, widows and orphans, tithe to the levites/priest)

Abraham tithe was example of free will giving (not as commanded), levite tithe was commanded by the law (but you agreed we are no more under the law)

ithink i have already addressed all this, even on this thread.

When you begin to mix both Abraham and levitical tithe together, you are simple confusing God's people and inconsistent in your teaching. Also you are not teaching the truth. If the levitical priesthood according to the word of God had been changed and disannulled, why will only the tithe remain? If the levitical system is done away with and Christians are now the Kings, Priest of ourselves and priesthood of ourselves, why do we hold on to the tithe alone? Why do we lay hold on the tithe alone when we no longer offer other ceremonial sacrifices being offered by the levites and the priests of old? why do we teach that Jesus had taken away the law and those ceremonial sacrifices but we can't let go the tithe?

2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
God permits me to learn, correct and instruct from all scripture. You don't try to reverse that. you are the ones confusing people here. People didn't have a problem with tithing, it's until people like you and others start harping about nothing, and telling people to eat their tithes and other such rubbish, that is what is causing the confusion. And it's like we left Kunle and co to themselves to keep talking forever, but once in a while like this, we have to come up and speak the truth of the Word of God, lest many others get more confused. The order changed from the Order of Melchisedec, to the Order of Aaron, to the Order of Melchisedec. the Order of Melchisedec can(and have) surely receive tithes and continue to receive forever.

Heb 7:8 And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.

Paul exposes all this truth in the book of Hebrews and all those systems are all gone. When Paul began to teach in Hebrews, he said in the opening statement, "God who "in time PAST had spoken" to the fathers by the prophets in many way BUT HAS NOW IN THIS LAST DAYS spoken to us by Christ, His Son". This dispensation is not the dispensation of the fathers (patriarchs) but the dispensation of Grace, Sons of God.

Oh, so Christ has spoken to us? i thought He was only busy in the Old covenant speaking to pharisees and sadducees. i tell you one thing Christ as also spoken.

Mat 23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

i will address your other issues by God's grace. i'm going out.

@kunle

I noticed so far 68 voters have voted that they believe tithe preachers are preaching the gospel truth. Now it is either they don't know what the gospel truth is or there is something missing in my bible cause i have read the all the gospels, the teachings of christ and the apostle and i am yet to see any where in the gospel biblical tithe was taught how much less the man made variant being promoted today. Could any of those that voted that the tithe preachers are preaching the gospel truth show us from the gospel where the type of tithe being peddled today is taught in the gospel.

You fail consistently. the gospel truth has nothing to do with tithes. Tithes don't take you to heaven or hell. The gospel truth has to do with Jesus Christ dying for the sins of the world and giving us power to live as children of God. Stop cheapening the gospel to tithe or not to tithe, or give to the poor. there are more serious things than all that.

@nuclear

This Sango issue above is not funny because it brings up a question -

If the new covenant Image123 claims wiped away the curses (and weight and issues etc) of the law his forefathers followed, why then doesn't that SAME new covenant wipe away the law of Moses which could be considered a type of "curse", being unfulfill-able by man?

i'm not even going into this. Tithe is not the law of Moses, and it is very much fulfill-able. i still gave tithe last month, duh

@kunle

No wonder, so image123 is a sango worshipper not surprised though with the way he constantly assaults the scriptures with little or no regard for it.

cheer leader, think for yourself.