₦airaland Forum

Where are those anti-tithers, all they do is mast.urbate about tithes, except for a pitiful few like goshen my brother. Come, teach this fellow and take some 'heat'.

Pastor Kun: @snowwy
We are still waiting for your inputs, your brother needs help to get out of the hole he dug for himself

You remain yourself. It'd be better you keep quiet and learn like others instead of polluting the thread. i'll answer at a convenient time. We do give you joy when we teach tithes, right? It'd all be so vain if we ignored your pollutions? Don't worry, we're here to make you happy.

Does pastorChris not practice disobedience to things explicitly stated in the Bible, even new testament? He has no right, integrity or understanding to lead/mislead others in such line as things written in the Bible.
Does the Bible say women are not to teach men? Does not pastorChris' wife and other women teach men in church?
Does the Bible say women ought to cover their head while praying or prophesying? Is this view regarded or adhered in pastorChris' church?
Does the Bible say there should be no speaking of tongues without interpretation in church? Does pastorChris obey this?
This three witnesses stand against pastorChris and deny him of a locus standi telling us to not do something BECAUSE it's not written in the Bible.

i've noticed the glee with which false brethren and unbelievers on this forum have supported the intake of cigarettes and co by christians. Some things are just plain wrong even if we want to argue that they're not sin. Taking cigarettes, alcohol, heroine, cocaine are wrong even if not stated in the Bible. People like pastorChris want to take us back to the law and the letter that killeth. They want us to operate strictly by what is written, rules and regulations, while they themselves DO NOT ABIDE by the evidently written. This is heresy and antichrist. God has given us the Spirit of discernment for a purpose, and a million pastorChrises and his type would not prevail against the body of Christ. True christians should discern what is good and what is not, instead of looking for fleshly wisdom like that of pastorChris.

ea7: ooh you read minds now.

One of my pastimes perhaps.

^you don't seem to know what you want. Just few days ago, you were commending me for telling you the truth about your 'hell status', and coercing Goshen360 to do same. Here, it's the opposite. Sinners are ALWAYS confused deep inside, atheist or no.

logicboy:

Troll harder. Or at least contribute something

It's evident you don't even know the meaning of the word. You think because you've been rightly accused as such, others must be like you.

ea7: have a ball.

Ball? Fellowship? Atheists have balls during their fellowship? i just wanted to share grace.

Hey, atheists brethren are having fellowship, and they're not even inviting we to share grace? Segregational racism.

ea7: ?. I meant many nigerians are dumb, and most humans are dumb. I am a nigerian.

you're not that smart BTW, just wanted to inform you on what many think of you.

^i don't, how does it look like?

i suggest you carry on with your responses. i purpose to finish 'discussion' on the multiple questions already answered first before thinking of any other question, thank you.

10. Even if we assume that tithing was commanded to NT Christians the pro-tithers fail to consider one important thing:

Don't assume. It was actually stated. These ought to be done.

* The plurality of the NT Church leadership.

a. In the first century Christianity no Church was run by a single Pastor. The Churches were founded by Apostles and they in turn appointed elders a.k.a Pastors (in plural – more than one). Why can’t the tithe seeking Pastors follow that model today?

Not all churches were 'founded' by apostles. Philip in Acts 8 was not an apostle. People went everywhere preaching and 'founding' churches. Timothy was leader of a church at Ephesus, Titus was leader of a church.

Titus 1:5 For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:
The people referred to by Jesus in Revelations were leaders of seven churches.
Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

Rev 2:1 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;

Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
i do not know the model you refer to, i've just mentioned different examples that singly headed churches in the new testament. That's the office of a bishop/pastor.

b. Also the early Church had all 5 five fold ministries in the Church.

Apostles, Prophets, Teachers, Evangelists and Pastors. Well, we all cannot agree if the offices of Apostles and Prophets exist today but we all can agree at least the offices of Pastors, Evangelists and Teaches exist in our contemporary Christianity. So the point is, even if the early Church received tithes it was divided amongst all 5 fold ministers and the money DID NOT GO TO A SINGLE PASTOR unlike what we see today. The tithing advocates today need to answer this question as well. They are unwilling to accommodate other types of ministries but want to dominate and control the finances which is totally unfair.

All 5 offices should exist. This is shameful and poor logic you've employed here. If that's the way you want to go about your ministry, go ahead. Get five people and let's share the money, you are not under the law! In most churches though, it's not boiling down to five people sharing the money or one person sharing the money. tithes and offerings are distributed according to church administration and policies. Full time workers are paid the same way workers are paid in their various establishments.Churches have finance departments, accountants, purchase officers and departments and several other departments. If your local church is run singly, well, we don't all attend your church. You don't appear to be 'seeing' much from where you are. It's better you keep quiet or get more exposure.

c. Acts 13:1

Now there were at Antioch, in the church that was there, prophets and teachers: Barnabas, and Simeon who was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul.

In Acts 13:1 we see in the early Church of Antioch they had 5 ministers who were prophets and teachers. Is it logical to assume all these 5 ministers received “double portion” of the “tithes” that that Church was receiving if it ever received money as tithe. When Paul and Barnabas were commissioned as Apostles a few verses later did they start receiving half of the money they got when they had that dual calling of functioning as prophets and teachers. In Acts chapter 13 we see their dual function of prophets and teachers was changed by the Holy Spirit to only one office in the five-fold ministry.

i don't know where you get your assumptions, you may keep them to yourself. i have more important things to deal with than your vain assumptions.

d. Many Senior Pastors have their associate Pastors. Most of them are not paid well and some of them are asked to “live by faith”. These tithe hungry Pastors not only forget the poor but also neglect their own staff members. This example was certainly not followed by the first century Christian church.

Therefore the pro-tithers still would not meet the NT model of tithing even if it was practiced by the early Christian church.

New Testament Christians Don’t Be Deceived By these Mammon Lovers!!

If these sad things happen in your church, sorry they don't happen in mine and are no basis for condemning others. Deal with them as God leads you, i'll be praying for you too.

9. The 3rd tithe for poor (Charity Tithe): Why don’t tithe asking Pastors give their congregation the liberty to take care of the poor? Why would it go to the benevolent funds controlled by the Church board? Poor people need to go through hoops to get some help. That really complicates the process?

i don't know about all these tithe names you're bringing up. If you have a nomenclature, why do you kunle and your cohorts always behave as if you do not know that there are different types of tithes? Who stops any body from taking care of the poor? Is lie no more a sin too? Or why are you lying here? 'benevolent funds controlled by the Church board'? What is this? Not everybody attends your church. If poor people go through hoops to get help in your church, it's not so in every church. Are you among those poor people and what are you doing to help the poor people so that they don't have to go through hoops?

Goshen360: Bros Image123,

If you look below the page, you go see say I never sleep here. I dey view and enjoy all your replies but maybe na when I wake we go chat our course. I want make you finish all the kweshions as much as you want to answer, maybe you want to answer all though. Thanks you.

i see you my brother. na your type make me come answer question oo.

8. Regarding the festival tithe, do Christians need to go to Jerusalem to observe it as the Jews did? What is our Jerusalem now? Did the NT Christians practice pilgrimage to Jerusalem?. The festival tithe must be taken to Jerusalem. If that was prescribed to NT Christians we should make pilgrimage to Jerusalem like the Muslims visit Mecca?!?!?!

What is the festival tithe?What was the purpose of the festival tithe? i guess you refer to the tithe given at Jerusalem, not the one eaten by the tithe giver(you can't eat your cake and have it back, can you?)

Joh 4:21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
Joh 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Once you know the purpose of giving, then you give. Your church should be trusted to take care of the rest. You are to give as if you're giving to God, not to men. The rest is between them and God. Some churches i.e locations, take their tithes and offering to their headquarters, some to their zonal headquarters, some to state or national headquarters. After which the headquarters share to all the locations/parishes equally. Some share as need arise. Some church locations are permitted to keep and spend their collections as led. It's all administration, church policy. There is no 'righter'one there or 'wronger'one. Obedience and motive is key. In the Bible, there were some collections sent to Jerusalem by the early church too. It all depends, especially as the Spirit of God leads the overseers.
Paul practice pilgrimage to Jerusalem but it's not a law. there's nothing wrong with going to Jerusalem, the earth is the Lord's and the fullness thereof. As much as we know that by grace, we are saved, not of works.

7. In the OT the High Priests themselves did not tithe but why do our modern day prosperity
preachers tithe to their cohorts?

Preachers are not high priests, they do not have to be stereotyped into doing the exact same thing. They don't offer burnt offerings, or sprinkle blood or kill bulls. Some have never seen the ashes of an heifer. Anyone who wants to tithe is free to irrespective of position, stop forcing people into your laws. God is not going to condemn anyone for giving.

6. Why does the Senior Pastor collect all tithes today and give salaries to the
staff members and leave many Church workers unpaid? The OT High Priests did not
do that. The OT Aaronic Priests received only 1% of the total tithe.

This is wrong. the senior pastor does not own the tithe, God does. It's left to each church how they manage their tithe and offerings. But on the average, full time workers including senior pastors, have a stipulated salary given to them by church finance officer by month's end. There are also percentages of the collections dedicated for various other uses e.g church growth, evangelism, maintenance, charity, expansion, projects, instruments etc. If your church's senior pastor collects all tithes, well, that's your own proverbial "father's farm". You need to come out of your myopia and see how things are done in other places.
i guess your hypocritical grouse is that everybody that does something in church should be paid. You want them all to be paid but you don't want to give anything, how convenient. Not all that work for God were paid through tithes even in the OT. David worked for God, he composed a lot of songs and dedicated many things to God. Prophets worked for God, they were not paid through tithes. Anna worked in church too.
Luk 2:36 And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher: she was of a great age, and had lived with a husband seven years from her virginity;
Luk 2:37 And she was a widow of about fourscore and and four years, which departed not from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day.
Tithe was only paid to the tribe of Levi, that was the arrangement. Each church location today has their own arrangement. and differences of administration. If you want to be paid, by all means, go to the church where they'll pay you. Why complain, wail and discoúrage more than the 'bereaved'? Many are willing to give their time, strength and talent to God and His church for free. It all depends on the church's arrangement and agreement. Some will collect gardener and pay, some would rather ask for voluntary gardener. Some collect/pay for instrumentalist, some train them, some encourage members to go and learn. It's all administration. These are very little matters in God's kingdom. Not something to carry on the head and go from house to house, and thread to thread with.
Like i've said earlier, senior pastors, or overseers, or paid church workers usually have stipulated salaries they are paid. They do not 'collect everything for personal use'.

4. How did the “NT Levites” take the 10% of the 10% to the “NT Priests”?

The same way it was done in the OT.

5. If the NT Pastor is the priest don’t we have to tithe to the ushers, choir,
greeters and other Church staff members and let them tithe from their tithes to
the (senior) Pastor?

Who said the NT pastor is the priest? The NT pastor is the pastor, the spiritual leader, shepherd, overseer of the church that he pastors. Nobody tithes to the pastor, we tithe to God. the tithe is dropped usually in a box (tithe box,offering box) or bag, or container, not in the pastor's pocket or bank account. The pastor is not the priest so i'm not even wasting more time on this.

3. Levitical tithes were yearly and it went to Levites according to their
locations. Who are the Levites today and who were the Levites in 1st century
Christianity?

What is levitical tithes? If you speak of tithes given to Levites, there are different Levites. there were those who work full time in Jerusalem according to courses/timetable. There were those who didn't. Levi was a tribe, and not all of them can work in the temple. there was tithe taken to Jerusalem and put in treasuries. there was also tithes shared WITHIN your gates. i've explained this in reply to question one.
Who are the Levites today? What sort of question is that? The Levites were set apart for God's service, to teach others God's ways in the various locations across Israel and to serve in the temple. They had no work, and that's a major reason why God gave them the tithe of Israel.

Num 18:21 And, behold, I have given the children of Levi all the tenth in Israel for an inheritance, for their service which they serve, even the service of the tabernacle of the congregation.
And remember, when i say Levites, i'm referring to the whole tribe of Levi which includes the priests, the porters, the Levites, the singers etc
Neh 12:47 And all Israel in the days of Zerubbabel, and in the days of Nehemiah, gave the portions of the singers [/b]and [b]the porters, every day his portion: and they sanctified holy things unto [b]the Levite[/b]s; and the Levites sanctified them unto the children of Aaron.
Anyone today that is set apart for God's work is fulfilling the same duty. It's no more restricted to a particular tribe or nation. there was a time when God wanted to use the firstborn sons of Israel for this, then latter He used the Levites. Now/Today, it's anyone. It does not have to be the house of Aaron or of Gershon. The same functions still apply, and the house of God still need to be taken care of. You see, god is greater than your ilk. You still want to keep us under the law where it's Levi or no other. But we are not under the law but under grace. It is grace and the cross that has put away the vail, and we do not all have to go to Jerusalem to worship God, but can now worship Him in Spirit and in TRUTH.

2. Did the early Christians who did not own farms and cattle give 23% of their earned income to their Churches?

i don't know where you get 23% from. From my simple understanding, a tithe is a tenth. A tenth is 10%, where you intellectuals make a tenth to be 23% is beyond my understanding, and i'm not interested in knowing. i'm okay with what the Bible says. God made it so simple that the majority will understand it. If you want to know though, the early christians may have given tithes, the Bible does not say that they did not. On the contrary, it is possible that they did, especially Jewish christians. The Jews were and are quite patriotic and heavily influenced by the law. There are biblical records of early christians who practised circumcision and preached it as a way of salvation. the epistles majorly corrected things that needed correction. Nobody 'çorrected' anybody saying don't give. Giving of all kinds is encouraged by God and His servants, and tithe is a type of giving. God is never, never, and NEVER going to punish anyone for giving tithes. No apostle or early christian ever spoke evil, or in bad light about tithing, or even the OT in general. Instead they regarded and respected the OT. Paul usually used it as defence for NT doctrines. ''As also saith the law'' brought weight and credence.

i want to state that it's not my joy or aim to go into endless discussion on tithe. Tithe does not take anyone into Heaven, neither does it disqualify anyone from Heaven. Due to requests from others apart from kunle is the reason why i've decided to reply to the OP. And please, each should prayerfully go and learn more on the issue of tithes instead of spreading and supporting anything and everything antitithe.

Questions Tithing Advocates Fail To Answer!

This is vague and narrow minded. Questions have been answered times without number, poorly and excellently. If nobody answered the OP, maybe he failed to go to enough people.

Our modern day tithe teachers do not have intellectual honesty.
Most of the pro-tithers cling onto Matthew 23:23 & Luke 11:42 and say that even Jesus said so, therefore the NT Christians need to tithe.

Jesus said so, didn't He? His words are dearer and more authoritative to me than a thousand and one excellent antitithe arguments. He never argued against tithes, i follow Him.

If they take Matthew 23:23/Luke 11:42 as a command for New Testament Christians to tithe here are the questions they need to answer:

Ask questions if you want, but do not hang them where they do not belong. BTW, Matthew 23:23/Luke 11:42 is not the foundation of tithing. It only comes up when deceivers force people not to tithe, by saying its nowhere in the NT.

1. According to Mishna and Flavious Josephus the 1st century Jews practiced
multiple tithes (almost 3). How did the early Christians practice all 3 tithes?

Christians are not Judaists. What do you mean by according to Mishna and Josephus? you don't believe it or you do? Being the base for the Op, i must say that your lot are dishonest hypocrites. So you know that there are multiple tithes when it's convenient to know? But you go on acting like there is only one tithe later. You go on deceiving people to eat their tithes when you know that there are multiple tithes? many have shown kunle and his accomplices that there are multiple tithes but he'll ignore, then jump to another point then another, then come in another thread or pages after, telling a supposedly innocent ignorant tithe giver that he's supposed to eat his tithe, not give it to God. You've employed continual repeatition and advertisement of error to deceive the gullible sheep. your lot are a bunch of hypocritical losers, talk of intellectual dishonesty par excellence.
Let me briefly re-state that there are different tithes in the OT commands. i don't know if there are just 3 but permit me to give/explain 3 types that i know almost offhand.
a) The tithe given to Levites working in Jerusalem temple. This is the general one that most people know of today.
Num 18:24 But the tithes of the children of Israel, which they offer as a heave offering unto the LORD, I have given to the Levites to inherit: therefore I have said unto them, Among the children of Israel they shall have no inheritance.
This is the one that was brought to the storehouse. see below for example
Neh 13:12 Then brought all Judah the tithe of the corn and the new wine and the oil unto the treasuries.
This tithe was for the TEMPLE WORKERS and their families.
Num 18:23 But the Levites shall do the service of the tabernacle of the congregation, and they shall bear their iniquity: it shall be a statute forever throughout your generations, that among the children of Israel they have no inheritance.
Num 18:21 And, behold, I have given the children of Levi all the tenth in Israel for an inheritance, for their service which they serve, even the service of the tabernacle of the congregation.
b) The tithes eaten by the tithe giver, with the poor and levites IN the Jerusalem. 'IN' is the operative word here.
Deu 12:17 Thou mayest NOT eat withIN thy gates the tithe of thy corn, or of thy wine, or of thy oil, or the firstlings of thy herds or of thy flock, nor any of thy vows which thou vowest, nor thy freewill offerings, or heave offering of thine hand:
Deu 12:18 But thou must eat them before the LORD thy God in the place which the LORD thy God shall choose, thou, and thy son, and thy daughter, and thy manservant, and thy maidservant, and the Levite that is within thy gates: and thou shalt rejoice before the LORD thy God in all that thou puttest thine hands unto.
Please note all the BOLDED in my replies for emphasis. Also see Deut 14v 23-26.
c) The tithe eaten within the house of the tithe giver, with the poor neighbours, levite neighbours etc. This one was not yearly but every three years.
Deu 26:12 When thou hast made an end of tithing all the tithes of thine increase the third year, which is the year of tithing, and hast given it unto the Levite, the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, that they may eat WITHIN thy gates, and be filled;
Deu 14:27 And the Levite that is within thy gates; thou shalt not forsake him; for he hath no part nor inheritance with thee.
Deu 14:28 At the end of three years thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase the same year, and shalt lay it up within thy gates:
Deu 14:29 And the Levite, (because he hath no part nor inheritance with thee,) and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, which are within thy gates, shall come, and shall eat and be satisfied; that the LORD thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hand which thou doest.
The above is clear and simple to anyone who wants to sincerely and honestly learn. Incase any missed it and needs more clarification, let me use an example. Suppose i receive 20000 every year, a tenth should be 2000. I set apart the first tithe 2000 for the temple workers, another 2000 to be used by me to have fun with my family and poor friends, servants and levites. Every third year, i add another 2000 (making 6000 in the tithe year). this third tithe i make sure i give 2000 to levites, widows, orphans, underprivileged ones, strangers around me.
These are all like a school master. they didn't save them, giving doesn't save any body. It's not an issue of salvation. It was done to teach giving. It's like, for instance, teaching a child addition. Some use counters, some fingers and toes, but it's not forever. It's towards a goal/ And when the goal is reached, we're not under the law to continue using fingers and toes. But we give. It's not just enough to love God and ourselves. But love others, your neighbours and the poor around. It's ceremonial, the 1st century christians were not obliged to go to the temple or what not, or to offer heave or burnt offerings. But they continued to give, even to their spiritual leaders.
Philippians 4:18 But I have all, and abound: I am full, having received of Epaphroditus the things which were sent from you, an odor of a sweet smell, a sacrifice acceptable, well-pleasing to God.
This serves the same purpose. Some of the early christians went further like Paul to still observe temple rites.
Acts 21:26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them.
However, they bore it in mind that the temple rites you are pressing us for, were fadingand passing away.
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

i'll split the answers so that they don't look cumbersome to read. You may wait for me to finish, i'm typing.

@emofine
It's clear and you've read it, there are no male and female in Heaven, yes there'll be reunion for all that made it. Though what will matter more will be the eternal relationship with God and with our spiritual(real) brethren for all eternity. It's going to be sweeter than any relationship ever experienced.

[quote author=i.chuka]Jhn3:16.[/quote]The passage does not say that you can't loose eternal life once you have it. Are you forcing your opinion on this scripture?

[quote author=i.chuka]The "Gift" is inexhaustible.(you dont lose enternal life once you have it,because its Enternal).[/quote]Source??

mkmyers45: why dont you explain that chapter in relation to plants and animal rather than dodging?

i thought you had something to teach? When i have the time, i would do as you request, but please make your request clear. What exactly do you want to know?

[quote author=emöfine2]I said . . ."Ok. I’m no expert on the Bible even though I’m an avid reader and that’s why I ask many questions even though I may be wrong in some of my assertions".

Anyway what of my question pertaining to men and women and their status that you conveniently sidestepped just to score meager points?[/quote]What points? I answered your OP and its title 'is there equality?' NO, no and no again. It'd be unjust.
As an avid reader of the Word, you should have come across what Jesus said about male and female in Heaven, or closer still, of marriage in the afterlife.

Of course, anything can be lost if one is careless. You can lose weight, money, life, sanity, yourself, salvation, anything.

@OP
Of course not. God would reward every one ACCORDING TO their works. Thought you said you're an avid reader of the Word.

mkmyers45: So only the animal we have today got into the ark right? Like penguins from antartica?

Read your Bible would you? Or maybe to help you, quote your Bible, let's see what you seem to be teaching us.

logicboy: God doesnt own me.

He does, spirit soul body blood and clothing. You can't believe one part of the Bible to insult God, and disbelieve other parts that humble you.

logicboy: There is no difference between God and an armed robber. They both give you a chance to do their bidding under a guise of free will. Failure to do so, is punishment with your life.

Lake of burning fire. What kind of sadistic douch£bag would create such a place?

i told you earlier. God lays claim to owning you, your robber friend doesn't.