₦airaland Forum

Bishopkingsley:
Here it is again in John 5:21–22: “As the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom he will. For the Father . . . has given all judgment to the Son.” So the Son has authority to raise from the dead whomever he will, including himself. So Jesus says in John 2:19: “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” And John adds, “He was speaking about the temple of his body” (John 2:21). Destroy this body, and in three days, I will raise it up. And he did

John 10:18, “No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father.” God the Father gave Jesus the authority to take up his life again from the grave where his body lay dead.

In Acts 2:24, Peter says that “God raised [Jesus] from the dead.” So that’s the basic answer. God resurrected Jesus. As we read more Scripture, that basic answer becomes more nuanced.

[s]The Bible indicates that all three Persons of the Trinity were involved in Jesus’ resurrection.
[/s]
Galatians 1:1 says that the Father raised Jesus from the dead. First Peter 3:18 says that the Spirit raised Jesus from the dead (see also Romans 1:4, and note that Romans 8:11 clearly says that God will resurrect believers “through His Spirit”).

And in John 2:19 Jesus predicts that He will raise Himself from the dead (see also John 10:18).

So, when we answer the question of who resurrected Jesus, we can say God did. And by that we can mean it was the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.(trinity)

Bishopkingsley:
Am not JW so how can you say your NWT is now


I don't use NWT

Bishopkingsley:
Who is Jesus Christ?

This question is one of the most critical religious and philosophical ones ever asked. It automatically leads to other equally crucial issues. Just who was this Man, Jesus, historically? What did He accomplish and why? And most important, what does His life mean to an individual?

The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society—also known as the Jehovah’s Witnesses or the Watchtower Society—is one religious organization that claims definite answers to all questions about Jesus Christ. This unusual religious movement, founded in 1884 by Charles Taze Russell (1852-1916), and now led by a small committee of supposedly inspired biblical interpreters claims to have the final word about the person and work of Jesus, as well as all other theological issues. Millions of Jehovah’s Witnesses believe confidently that the Watchtower Society’s positions indisputably are correct and any opinions to the contrary are wrong.

The more significant issue for Jehovah’s Witnesses and those outside that organization is how one’s relationship to Christ is affected by Watchtower views.

Jesus’ Prehuman Existence

The Watchtower Society teaches that Jesus Christ was the first created being of Jehovah God. Jehovah God created Jesus as a divine-like spirit at some point in ancient, pre-creation time. “This means that he was created before all the other spirit sons of God, and that he is the only one who was directly created by God” (You Can Live Forever in Paradise on Earth [Live] [Brooklyn: Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, 1982], p. 58).

In His preexistence, Jesus was known as “the Word” (John 1:3,10,14) because He was God’s spokesman, according to the Watchtower Society. He is also identified by Jehovah’s Witnesses with Michael the archangel. “Reasonably, then, the archangel Michael is Jesus Christ. So the evidence indicates that the Son of God (Jesus) was known as Michael before he came to earth” (Reasoning from the Scriptures [Reasoning] [Brooklyn: Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, 1985], p. 218).

The Watchtower teaches that through the agency of the prehuman Christ, Jehovah created all other things in the universe. “He is also God’s ‘only-begotten’ Son in that he is the only one directly created by Jehovah God; all other things came into existence through him as God’s Chief Agent” (The Truth that Leads to Eternal Life [Truth] [Brooklyn: Watchtower Bible and Tract society of New York, 1968], p. 47).

This Agent, however, is not to be confused as being a Co-creator with God. “The Son’s share in the creative works, however, did not make him a Co-creator with the Father. Rather than a Co-creator, then, the Son was the Agent or instrumentality through whom Jehovah, the Creator worked” (Aid to Bible Understanding, [Aid] [Brooklyn: Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, 1971, p. 918).

Christians [s]maintain there is no scriptural evidence to equate Michael the archangel with the prehuman Christ. The Watchtower Society’s assertion that they are the same person is based on their incorrect assumptions about Christ’s creation and misinterpretations of Daniel 10 and 12, Jude 9, and 1 Thessalonians 4:16, none of which identify Michael as Christ. Also, Christians contend that Christ was not merely a created being, but eternally preexistent as God the Son with the Father. He was indeed the Creator, with the Father and the Spirit, of all things[/s] (see John 1:1-14; Phil. 2:5-11; Col. 1:15-20; Rev. 3:14).

Bishopkingsley:
People read one part of the Bible and leave the others how will they know Jesus rose from the dead by himself unless they study it

Bishopkingsley:
Lol some one asked you a few questions and you are calling bishop lol

Bishopkingsley:
#1
When we say holy spirit wrote scripture it means he is the one speaking to holy men of God to write what he wants them to write they did not write it of their own will rather he is the breath of God

#2
And all Bible is the breath of God, holy spirit is the breath of God

2 Timothy 3:16 ►
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

English Standard Version
All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,


2Peter 1:20-21
But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

LIAR Bishop
2 Peter 1:20-22.
Holy spirit moved men to speak from God.
Men spoke from God under the influence of holy spirit.
Bros , stop DECEIVING yourself.

#2
Is God breath a person?
Why do you love LYING so much?
Do you still recall your lie : Jesus is holy spirit?

correctguy101:
Aye, he saw there were three men approaching him, now as they were eating one of the men was talking and was from that very moment referred to as the Lord even till the first two left and that was even when the other two were then referred to as angels in the next verse. ...

How do you guys manage with all these?
I'll pass this on my JW sisters when next I visit them let me even hear what a JW will say on this.

I'll make their reply known here.

bloodofthelamb:
NO ONE HAS SEEN GOD THE FATHER... WHO ABRAHAM SAW AND SPOKE WITH WAS GOD THE SON WHO LATER INCARNATED AS CHRIST JESUS OUR SAVIOUR AND LORD.

Bishopkingsley:
If it another person I would explain but you have read a lot about this things from me so you know I won't bother to continue to say it to you

And because you Gentiles have become his children, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, and now you can call God your dear Father (Galatians 4:6

And after they came to Mysia, they were trying to go into Bithynia, and the Spirit of Jesus did not permit them (Acts 16:7

For I know that through your prayers and the help of the Spirit of Jesus Christ this will turn out for my deliverance (Philippians 1:19

The holy spirit is the spirit of Jesus
The holy spirit of God is the one who wrote the scriptures he is Jesus in spiritual form he is the spirit of Jesus

sagenaija:
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MaxinDHouse,
Do you remember this?:
There is no letter 'J' in the Hebrew. When you guys therefore become so HUNG UP with being Jehovah's Witnesses one wonders why. Perhaps you should go more with Yahweh's Witnesses. NOT ONE TIME is Jehovah used IN THE GREEK of the New Testament. So, I wonder if your pal janosky will turn to his lexicon and help us out there. But of course you guys will still prefer your DOGMA-influencedNew World Translation and will care less about the Greek. When you are boxed into a corner you then run to 'works of faith' or attack your opponent[/b].

NWT is correct.
Go and read John 1:1 in Emphatic Diaglott, Moffat, Goodspeed ,Sahidic Coptic Bible & admit your claim is FALSE.

Which dogma influenced Moffat Bible & Goodspeed Bible translators as well as the Sahidic Coptic Bible translations of well known Trinitarian devotees & scholars?
Bros,no dey DECEIVE yourself.

Bishopkingsley:
If you read Bible as you claim then you will know there is nothing like group or organization because

What Bible shows is we are in Christ we are the body of Christ Jesus you must point to Jesus Christ of Nazareth any body that refuses to point to Jesus Christ of Nazareth is of the devil, Jesus said it the holy spirit will speak of me he will tell you about me he won't speak of his own will so those who have the holy spirit will do the same thing he do we point to Jesus that is what the bible commands

Jesus is the head of us we are the sons and daughters of God every thing in the Bible is real both the physical aspect and the spiritual aspect

People who don't have the holy spirit power will deny the holy spirit and tell you it does not exist or it only for the Jews

The reason they say it is because they don't know the holy spirit power they don't know The holy spirit of God

If you know the holy spirit is alive and gives those he wills his presence and his fire then you will understand what we say is practical

As long as you refuse to believe the holy spirit is a person that is invincible then you won't receive his power

The holy spirit of God is the one who wrote the scriptures he is Jesus in spiritual form he is the spirit of Jesus

We are continually living the new testaments experience in our lives dally we don't ask you to believe in us or in our church or group what we ask you to believe is what is written in the Bible so that you can receive the same Holy Spirit we have received

That alone will indicate to you that we are truly of God

If I told you to kill a goat or come to my group before you can receive this thing then that is an indication that am a cult master because no where did the Bible indicate that method

So we walk by faith we walk according to the Bible we dare not go against the Bible because we know our God is a consuming fire besides he lives in us we live in him so he commands us on what to do and what to say

Holy spirit is God's finger.
Is your own finger a person?


So, for your mind Jesus is holy spirit and replaced himself?

Where did Bishop learn such GIBBERISH?

Nancy2020:
Janosky the LIENUS tell me what you saw in the Bible did God ever say he was the first and the last.

awitness41:
John 5:21 (NKJV): For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will.
John 5:26 (NKJV): For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself...

These Verses also mean that Jesus can create matter from nothing at all... something which no Angel can do.

Let me also ask all of you to please consider this:

At the very beginning - before the first atom, molecule, planet, or being - there was God alone.
For Jesus did not create God, just as a son cannot create his own parent, nor can a son come before their own parent.
#1
God, therefore, [b]MUST HAVE created Jesus... at the very beginning, before anything else (even an atom) was made.
[/b]
In addition, God taught Jesus everything, gave Him every ability, and also gave His Son all authority over everything that would be made.
#2
In essence, Jesus was [b]just like God, for even though the Father is greater than Jesus (John 14:28), God gave Jesus every God-like trait.[/b]
(Therefore, it is no affront to God when Thomas refers to Jesus as "my Lord and my God"... because to us puny human beings, Jesus can be considered as One with His Father, or as God is, #3
even though Jesus Himself is not God.)

To note: Jesus was not an Angel, just as God is not an Angel... for Angels were created by Both sometime afterward.

Now, on to Creation.
We know this is also true (John 1:3): nothing was made without Jesus also being present to make it.
That includes the first atom, the first molecule, the first planet, and the first beings... all of which God and Jesus created.
And to do that, #4
Jesus also had to be given the ability to create matter from nothing at all, just like God can.

Consider our own body temples... a mass of atoms and molecules that would otherwise have no Life unless God and Jesus also put our own Spirit within us.
Thus, God and Jesus also make the visible (the body) and the invisible (the Spirit of Life in flesh that allows the atoms and molecules to become a living being).
Can we do that ? No.
Can Angels do that ? No.

Can't we simply believe that Jesus is just like God His Father in all ways - Spirit, form, and authority ?
Why not ? It's the Truth.
That's because God, the Greater One, made it that way !
And as God is NOT an Angel, neither is Jesus... for Angels came well after the very beginning.
#5
And you can all find the Scriptures that support this... without saying explicity that God created Jesus.
But if we actually think about what is presented to us in Scripture, ALL Verses included, then we can, in Truth, draw no other conclusion.

You are not a Trinitarian or you have your own version of the Trinity.
Matthew 11:10 Jesus is an angel just as John the Baptizer is.
Envoys , Messengers of God.

sagenaija:
This is a knockout punch!
Jesus said he gives life just like the Father does.
I bet janosky will evade this.
John 5:21 For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it.
It can't be more clearly stated.

sagenaija:
Janosky,



2. Where did Sagenaija make a claim that
Jesus is Archangel Michael doctrine is exclusive to JWs?
Show me or apologise.

3. When I quote Bible verses and you don't address them but instead bring up other verses you are simply being disingenuous. Did the verses I quoted prove my point?

4. Janosky, even for you guys who believe that Jesus was an angel before he became man let me ask you this:
When Jesus became man did he still exercise the powers he had before becoming man or did his mission require that he restrict himself to human limitations?

5. John 19:6-7, confirmed John 5:18. How did they confirm that they were lying?
The Jewish leaders insisted, “We have a law, and according to that law he must die, because he claimed to be the Son of God.”
John 19:7 NIV

For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
John 5:18 NIV

Note janosky, that John 5:18 IS NOT a statement of the Jews. It is what the writer under INSPIRATION has given us. So, the issue is do you believe what the writer of the book of John said that it was because they understood him to be making himself equal with God that they wanted to kill him?
Secondly, is John 19:7 not clear enough?

.

Did you intend to show this forum that your fellow Trinitarian devotees believe in the doctrine of Jesus is Archangel Michael on this thread?
Have ever said there are Trinitarians who believe that Jesus is Archangel Michael?
The same Scriptures JWs have proven to you, is that the same scriptures your Trinitarian devotees believe in?
When & where did you say the doctrine is NOT exclusive to JWs?

4.
Jesus Christ is a perfect man without limitations.
Trinitarians brought in the claim of limitations because they can't explain why their fully God man doesn't know nah nah about Matthew 24:36

5
John 5:16
Now because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jews began to persecute Him.

John 10:33
"We are not stoning You for any good work," said the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because You, who are a man, declare Yourself to be God."

John 10:33 and John 5:16, John have proven that the Jews made the FALSE accusations at John 5:18.
John 5:18, John 5:16, John 10:33 is the same FALSE claim of the Jews.
John 10:36, Jesus Christ proven the accusations FALSE

sagenaija:
Janosky,

1. Here is Genesis 10:25
Two sons were born to Eber: One was named Peleg, because in his time the earth was divided; his brother was named Joktan.
Genesis 10:25 NIV

Here is Genesis 4:19
Lamech married two women, one named Adah and the other Zillah.
Genesis 4:19 NIV

Here is Daniel 10:13
But the prince of the Persian kingdom resisted me twenty-one days. Then Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, because I was detained there with the king of Persia.
Daniel 10:13 NIV

Please show us in simple terms (1) how these verses are related and (2) how "one of" and "the one" translates to the first, the Head, the Senior.

Please break it down since many of us here may not have your IQ.


You post so many times that one is beginning to think that you just want to confuse issues rather than face them squarely. You seem to be engaging in some kind of sophistry. Or are you simply a peevish person.

Funny enough, most Bible scholars , John Wesley, Adam Clarke, John Trapp, James Moffat (to name a few) your Trinitarian devotees share this belief.
Who taught them?

Bishopkingsley:
But

Why do people find it strange God praying or speaking to himself in genesis did God not speak to himself when he said let us make man.... In Hebrew God swear by himself

sagenaija:
MaxinDHouse, DappaD,
Go through this thread again carefully and honestly tell us who is doing what you are accusing others of.

My responses have been reactions to what you guys bring up. My focus remains the same. Take my last post for example, I've still pointed out how Michael can't be Jesus; the latter is referred to as the 'first born' while the former is NOWHERE in Scripture referred to as that. Is that a deviation from my thread topic? I know that you will not answer.

sagenaija:
The other issues have to do with you guys insistence on 'practical works'. Also to show the weakness you live in and wrong approach to scriptural interpretation. So, where have I deviated. I have brought up nothing CONTRADICTORY.

I said it earlier, shouldn't 'weak shots' be easier to debunk? You have made no attempts at disproving my 'weak shots' but you are asking for 'best shot'. You guys must think very highly of yourselves: what does the Bible call that?

I give my points and what I see you guys do is engage in DEFLECTION.

A sign that a person is UNABLE to present a better argument is when he runs away from addressing the points the other side has given, whether 'weak' or 'strong'. If you can't show why a point is weak or how the supposedly strong points have loopholes you are just showing yourself as being incapable or unprepared.

Or maybe you just following your leaders instructions not to look into any other materials apart from Watchtower's.

I believe that, even when you don't admit it, you guys know when you have no answer or when you have been boxed into a corner. I believe MaxinDHouse knew this in the other thread we were engaged in.

When you claim "TO BE THE ONE AND ONLY TRUE CHRISTIAN GROUP", (MaxinDHouse's exact words), you make all others false. The onus is then on you to prove how you are what you claim.

A person's actions are most times based on his belief system. For example, a person who believes that if he kills others who don't believe in his god is doing what his god wants would likely act it out. But if he is confronted to show how his belief system is right and he can't clearly show it he may begin to rethink the necessity of his actions.

In the same way, you guys base your attitudes and actions on some beliefs. Unfortunately you have not been able to show how those beliefs stand true test.

MaxinDHouse is FIXATED on "which group is PRACTICING what Jesus taught?". He seem to forget that Jesus Christ addressed seven (7) churches in the book of Revelation. Were those churches his own? Were they one (1) group? Did they have different issues confronting them?
So, what was the singular UNIFYING thread or bond between them?

The focus is not man or group otherwise glory will be given to the man or group. The focus is on him who said "I will build my church".

The ultimate issue is 'What think ye of Christ?'. Who is he to the individual or to a group? A mere out-of-this-world super angel OR the creator, saviour and sustainer of all?

That belief on Christ is the foundational basis for everything else that follows. Once it is missing or misconstrued everything else, every purported practical works, will crumble before him when he comes to judge ALL.

sagenaija:
Jesus's Superiority Over All
The book of Hebrews begins by telling us that God who employed others as his messengers in time past has now chosen to do his work through his Son whom he has made heir of ALL things.

In Hebrews 1:3 we are told that apart from the Son being the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being that he sustains all things by his powerful word.
It should be obvious to even a casual student of the Bible that NO CREATED BEING can sustain ALL THINGS by his powers. The sheer vastness of the universe with its complexities requires nothing short of omniscience and omnipotence to sustain.

We have already seen in the earlier post that Jesus is superior, in quality and position, to the angels Heb. 1:4.
#1
In spite of the clarity of Hebrews 1:8
'But about the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom."' many Jehovah Witnesses and those who believe along the same lines with them still attempt to use their weird semantic gymnastics of statements of scriptures to want to look at reinterpreting that portion of Scripture. What they seem not to look at is that God in making a statement there continues it into verse 10.

The JW translation of verse 8 is so convoluted and they appear to lose sight of some of its implications. JW say there: "God is your throne". Is that really what the writer of the book of Hebrews conveying there? What is a throne? What does God as throne mean?

Verse 10 goes on to say:
“In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands."
Notice that the FOUNDATIONS of the earth and the heavens are the work of the hands of the Son. And he is also said to be unchanging.

#2
If we are to go by JW claim that Jesus is Archangel Michael then does it mean that ultimately he will join in ALL ANGELS serving those who will inherit salvation as stated in verse 14? Or will they at this point want to conveniently leave him out? Will they now want to separate angels from Archangels and tell us that this applies only to lower class angels?

Obviously what we again see in all that we have examined here is that Jesus is not in any category of angels whether ordinary or Archangel.

#1
Psalms 45:6-7 Hebrew Masoretic Text DISPROVEN your faulty Trinitarian rendition of Hebrews 1:8.
Your Trinitarian Hebrews 1:8 is GIBBERISH
"God is your throne" meaning your throne is from God".
Similarly God is your Strength meaning your strength is from God.
NWT, Message Bible, Byington Bible, Catholic Jerusalem Bible, Moffat Bible, Goodspeed Bible are correct @ Psalms 45:6.
It is FRAUDULENT to misquote any source.
Your Trinitarian Hebrews 1:8 is a misquote of Hebrew Masoretic Psalms.
Isaiah 28:5 "God is the Crown", are you going to change it to suit your Trinitarian taste?

freshboi88:
I like how u shoot yourself in the foot.

Yes Seun is equal to Fela in terms of their humanity, essence and value before God. That is why Seun can do whatever he sees Fela doing.

A cat or goat cannot claim to do whatever it sees it's owner doing because they are not of the same nature and essence as it's human owner.

So using your logic you only prove me right.

So why can Jesus do everything that God can do? Answer this question carefully this time and don't rush to answers that actually put u in more trouble

@Janosky come and see how ur own lies have turned on u.....

Ephesians 5:1,1 Corinthians11:1and John 5:19 proven that you and your crew members rants no get SENSE
According to your faulty logic Paul is equal to Jesus Christ because he copies whatever Jesus does.
Everyone who imitates God is equal to God.
Ephesians 5:1
Imitate God, therefore, in everything you do, because you are his dear children"


Ephesians 5:1, 1Corinthians11:1 & John 5:19 pari pasu

freshboi88:
John 5:19 Jesus gave them this answer: “Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.

Can Jesus do everything than Jehovah can do?

Seun can do nothing by himself;he can do only what he sees Fela his Father doing because whatever fela the Father does,Seun the Son also does.

Is Seun equal to Fela his Father?
John 7:16, who is teaching his Father's doctrine?

Trinity robbed your SENSE.
Fresh WAILER

GardenOfGod:
Here is the best and effective response to the Archangel Michael Doctrine...

If Jesus Christ Is "Archangel Michael," then Jehovah God is the "Angel of the LORD" in the Old testament.
Let them argue to their destruction!

LIAR

Isaiah 6:8
And I heard the voice of LORD JEHOVAH who said: “Whom shall I send, and who will go?”, and I said, “Behold here I am; send me"

JEHOVAH God is NOT an angel.
Angel of the Lord is Jesus.
John 3:16 JEHOVAH sent Jesus his angel.

Isaiah 6:8 confirmed your FALSE claim.
Roger that.
Garden of LYING forgot their 3 Gods are different Persons of Trinity.
.

sagenaija:
MaxinDHouse, DappaD,


Here's some wisdom:
Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."
John 6:29

"Martha, Martha," the Lord answered, "you are worried and upset about many things, but few things are needed - or indeed only one. Mary has chosen what is better, and it will not be taken away from her."
Luke 10:39"

Jesus answered, "The work of (ho Theos) the God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."
John 6:29"

John 1:1, John 14:1, John 4:24 , John 6:29, JEHOVAH the God is ho Theos.
Proven fact.
Trinity is man made GIBBERISH

sagenaija:
MaxinDHouse, DappaD,
You guys get so excited about what you post that you don't even sit back to go through them carefully to see if you make sense.

You have attempted to shift the focus of this thread and I haven't even finished with all that I want to post. The fact that NONE OF YOU has touched on anything regarding the focus of the thread means that you are trying HARD to run away from the real issues.

I have shown you how the verses used by JW to claim that Jesus is Archangel Michael have been twisted by the society. None of you here has proved me wrong. But you get up and excite yourselves about 'superior wisdom' or 'fruits' or the 'type of person' you are.

First, MaxinDHouse, who in another thread asked us to stick to 'only what we read in the Bible' suddenly shifted to pasting pictures of JW's 'works' and resort to 'PRACTICAL RESULTS'. Maybe he feels that the works of his organisation are better proofs than the rightly divided Scripture.
I asked him if we can trust a group that uses its DOGMA to REINTERPRET the Scripture. He couldn't answer but ran away from that question.

I showed your colleague, also in that thread, who was busy posting lexicon that those who translated the New World Translation did not use the same yardstick they used in translating John 1:1 in other portions that had [b]THE SAME GREEK wordings. He didn't address that but equally ran away. [/b]And I said that if they can be wrong here, how can we be sure they are not wrong in other things.

So, when you guys pat yourselves on the back and claim victory of your 'wisdom' I just wonder what wisdom runs away from answering questions and addressing issues presented.

I have seen that jeering, ridicule, mockery is part of your 'wisdom'. BUT I have not seen that 'wisdom' answer any of my pointed questions directly.

I have shown here that Jehovah Witnesses are wrong in using the book of Daniel or even Jude to claim that Jesus is Archangel Michael. [b]Till now NONE of you have proved me wrong. [/b]Why? Your 'wisdom' should have been able to take those portions and show how you are right and I am not. But I haven't seen it or should I say WE (including other readers of this thread) haven't seen it. WE ONLY SEE YOU DEFLECT THE ISSUE TO SOME OTHER THINGS.

Here's some wisdom:
Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."
John 6:29

"Martha, Martha," the Lord answered, "you are worried and upset about many things, but few things are needed - or indeed only one. Mary has chosen what is better, and it will not be taken away from her."
Luke 10:39"

You refered to John 1:18 to back your claim when you already knew there are two versions of John 1:18. "Only begotten son/god.
John 1;18, your begotten Theos was at his Father's side.
The setting of John 1:18 is heaven, Who is the Father of your begotten Theos?

You know every angel is begotten by the Most High.
Hosea 12:3-4, angel is God.
Going by your logic @ John 1:18, do you agree that @ Hosea 12:3-4,angel is God and begotten?

Nobody ran away but you can't face the truth.

sagenaija:
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Result is relative. I'll leave it at that.

I have shown above that Archangel Michael is just [b]ONE of the chief princes of the angels. He is not said there to be the chief prince. JW missed the point there.
[/b]
I have also shown that there is no direct linking of Michael with Jesus either in the book of Daniel or Jude.

I have equally presented evidence that the book of Hebrews showcases the superiority of Jesus over angels - no matter their class or ranking.

In his humanity, Jesus demonstrated authority over Satan and demons. This is something Michael couldn't do with the dispute over the body of Moses.

Jesus accepted worship from both men and angels. No other true angel accepts worship .

These are not human deductions. These are what we see clearly in Scripture. Why are you guys not facing the Scripture? Why are you holding on to what you assume someone thinks or the position he holds?

Hebrew Lexicon 259 haa.hat "one of"/the one" @ Daniel 10:13, Genesis 4:19, Genesis 10:25.
Meaning "the first, the Head, the Senior.
Geneva Bible, Daniel 10:13/ 12:1.
Bros, go and read up your Trinitarian devotees commentaries on Joshua 5:14.
You might receive SENSE

sagenaija:
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1. The ramifications of the temptation of Jesus is wide and not what I want to go into now in this thread.
My main point again is this:
John 5:18 IS NOT a statement of the Jews. It is what the writer, under INSPIRATION has given us. So, the issue is do you believe that it was because they understood him to be making himself equal with God that they wanted to kill him?

2. Jesus had a glory before his death and resurrection. Not just after his death and resurrection. That is what he talked about in John 17:5. Jesus said "the glory WHICH I HAD WITH YOU BEFORE THE WORLD WAS". In his humanity, because he voluntarily restricted the independent use of his deity in order to fulfill the plan of salvation it was fitting for him to be called Servant. Even in the book of Revelation he is referred to as the Lamb. But we know that he is in an exalted position and state.
Did John 17:5 say that Jesus had a glory before the world was?

#1.
John 19:7 & John 5:18, does Jesus calling himself Son of God equate with calling God his Father?

Does Jesus calling God his Father equates to equality with God?

Under inspiration @ John 14:28 & John 5:18, would John contradict himself?
Bros, use your brain

freshboi88:
Hahahaha........u think u are wise.

Does John 5:19 end there. Why did u remove the last sentence. Lemme quote it again and add verse 21 to it to bury u.

John 5: 19 Jesus gave them this answer: “Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.

The Son can do whatever the Father does....why are u running away from this part.

Why can the Son do whatever the Father does?

What are the things the Father does that only God can do that the Son also does in like manner. Verse 21 of the same chapter states it. I'll quote

John 5:21 For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it.

Janosky blabbermouth filthy lying pathetic son of the devil. Why is Jesus an Angel able to do everything the Father does even has the ability to give life to whomever it pleases Jesus to give it ?

Ehn ehn according to JW angel a creature has the ability to give life

Your mother is a Creature, did she give life to you?
Ask your parents, the human angels you first knew.
Angels give life by saving life, Ask Lot & his daughters.
Ask Daniel in the lion's den.
Ask the 3 Hebrews in the burning furnace.

Your quote of John 5:19-21 proven you, Fresh WAILER lacks SENSE.
Trinity robbed you full time

DappaD:
My point exactly! Jesus really became the Lamb of God when he was resurrected and offered the value of his sacrificial death to God in heaven(Hebrews 9:14, 24-26) in order for our sins to be forgiven(1John 1:7) and for us to have the prospect of living forever. John 3:16
So the title “Lamb” belonged to Jesus before his death(John 1:29) and after his resurrection to heaven. Revelation 5:6

This buttresses my point so well that’s why Jesus is still being called Servant even after his resurrection because that is something that will not also change! Matthew 12:18 see also Acts 3:13

You see what happens when you want to enter into argument with superior wisdom. Mr sagenaija, please please please there are still so many other questions I asked you so please attend to them quickly.

DappaD:
My point exactly! Jesus really became the Lamb of God when he was resurrected and offered the value of his sacrificial death to God in heaven(Hebrews 9:14, 24-26) in order for our sins to be forgiven(1John 1:7) and for us to have the prospect of living forever. John 3:16
So the title “Lamb” belonged to Jesus before his death(John 1:29) and after his resurrection to heaven. Revelation 5:6

This buttresses my point so well that’s why Jesus is still being called Servant even after his resurrection because that is something that will not also change! Matthew 12:18 see also Acts 3:13

You see what happens when you want to enter into argument with superior wisdom. Mr sagenaija, please please please there are still so many other questions I asked you so please attend to them quickly.

sagenaija:
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How is my earlier claim on John 5:18 declared null and void?
If you don't understand a phrase or statement an opponent has made the right thing to do is ask for clarification.
Revelation was written after Jesus had RESURRECTED. Why was he still called a LAMB?

John 19:7
We have a law,” answered the Jews, “and according to that law He must die, because He declared Himself to be the Son of God.”
The Jews declared your FALSE claim & their own claim null and void

freshboi88:
John 5:19 Jesus gave them this answer: “Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing,because whatever the Father does the Son also does.

Hold on Mr Jehovah Witness. Notice @ bold.


So what you are telling us here now is Angel Micheal can do whatever Jehovah does. Omo see idolatry and heresy mixed togeda from these filthy pathetic filthy child of satan

Shame on you, fresh WAILER
John 5:19, your deity says himself the son, he "can do only what he sees his Father doing",

Your deity is obedient Son like his Father's angels , Bros repent !

sagenaija:
A Case of Mistaken Identity
Because the JW start from using their belief system to interpret Scripture rather than let the scriptures guide their understanding they end muddling things up and have to go into a lot of weird semantic gymnastics of statements of scriptures to attempt to prove their point.

The Archangel Michael is simply what the Bible says that he is - an angel of the highest rank.

On the other hand, Jesus is clearly shown as being superior to any angel, no matter the rank.

Jesus's Superiority Over Angels
Hebrews 1 starts off with the statement that Jesus is "MUCH SUPERIOR to angels"
"So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs."
Hebrews 1:4 NIV
We see here that Jesus is superior, in quality and position, to the angels.

CLEARLY the book of Hebrews emphasizes the superiority of Jesus over ALL angels. When we are told in Hebrews 1:5 "For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father”? Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”?
that rhetoric question makes us come to only one conclusion: God never said that to ANY angel.

Archangel Michael is what he is said to be - an angel, whilst Jesus' position is said to be superior to that of any angel.

Jesus's Demonstration of Authority Over Satan versus Michael's
Jesus in his humanity - Jesus as a man - showed authority over Satan which Michael as an archangel could not do when contending with Satan over the body of Moses in Jude 9.

Sagenaija is making a FALSE claim.
Jesus is Archangel Michael doctrine is NOT exclusive to JWs.
Sagenaija, who taught your Trinitarian Bible scholars to believe that Michael Archangel Jesus?
Does Sagenaija understands Greek & Hebrew Bible lexicon more than his Trinitarian devotees who believe Jesus is Archangel Michael?

sagenaija:
Jesus Accepted Worship
Jesus received worship from both men and angels. No man or angel is to be worshipped. No true angel (as opposed to demons) accepts worship - Rev. 19:10; Rev. 22:8&9.

To be continued........