₦airaland Forum

Deep Sight: The s.illy marijuana addict could not even see how the statement that humans are machines counters his atheism.

Take it easy sir.
That's what I asked him first.
I'm still waiting for him to reply.

jayriginal: Josh, you contradict yourself. Follow the sequence if you will.



How do you interpret the following which are to be found in the bible

Righteousness is said to be like filthy rags (doing good for goods sake) to God
Jesus declared himself the way the truth and light and the only path to God
Jesus said that all who believe in him and are baptised will be saved and those who didnt will be condemned

look carefully sir.

Joshthefirst: Jesus himself said that those who do not believe in him are condemned already

It is sin that has condemned mankind.

Jesus came as the only remedy to sin, that's why he is the only way to have your sins remitted.

Kay 17: Olaadegbu is a sinner, and by such nature deceitful and wicked. It is not his place to preach righteousness and love. Jesus should come down himself and teach us his message. He appeared before his disciples and Paul, why not us?!

Why does Jesus send sinners to preach to us?!

jesus preached to the jews in the flesh and performed inconceivable miracles proving he was the messiah and God who has power over life and death. But they still did not believe him. They were faced with the fact of the resurrection and still paid men to lie.

If Jesus came to you, you'd just raise another excuse to not believe in him, like you do now. Jesus is in us, reconciling those who believe to himself.

wiegraf: Let's say simply, yes. Does not mean they necessarily came to be for a purpose.



Again, we are machines.

okay,
I assume you speak indirectly. A machine has no choice but to fulfill the intents of its maker? Or rather, the intent of a machine is the intent of its maker?
What gives machines intent if not the machine makers?
Do machines have freewill?
Remember:
A machine is a tool containing one or more parts that uses energy to perform an intended action.

How can humans be machines and still have freewill, having their own intents and taking their own actions?

Machines have makers do they not?
And you cannot tell me that evolution is our maker, evolution itself does not have intent. Or does it?

jayriginal: How do you interpret the following which are to be found in the bible

Righteousness is said to be like filthy rags (doing good for goods sake) to God
Jesus declared himself the way the truth and light and the only path to God
Jesus said that all who believe in him and are baptised will be saved and those who didnt will be condemned

Jesus himself said that those who do not believe in him are condemned already

It is sin that has condemned mankind.

Jesus came as the only remedy to sin, that's why he is the only way to have your sins remitted.

Kay 17: I knew you would fall into your own trap of circular argument! You beg the quesyion of justice already, you already used Justice itself has the basis of justifying Justice

In other words, God likes justice because it is justice. Bad argument.

My contention remains the same, God is free willed, he can decide whether or not to follow Justice, he can decide to use another other means other than Jesus to redeem the world.

No ma'am.
I used God as the basis of justifying justice. Justice is part of his very nature.

Uyi Iredia: @ Joshthefirst: Why do you accept Christianity over other religions ? How do you explain that a God that wants mankind saved told his plan to a few Jews and fails to provide proof of His existence, and His walk on earth, to billions of persons ? Do you believe sending people to hell is good ? That's all for now.

I do not accept christianity over all religions, I debunk all religions. Religion can't save mankind. Look at what religion has done to nigeria.
I accept Jesus because I have come to recognize his attributes and know him as the saviour. He is the substitute.
God has recorded his revealed word and his living word is here within and among us.
Proof of Gods existence is seen in both the natural and the supernatural.
Proof of Gods walk on earth is seen in the bible.
More importantly, Jesus is able to wash away, and save us from sin. Yes he is. My life is witness. Countless lives are witness.
I believe hell is justice and justice is necessary and good. Don't you?

macof: Christians should Borne their punishment for demself, u cannot commit a crime and expect someone else to pay for u. Be accountable.

Accountability is not a Christian quality, u always blame satan for leading u to sin(when satan doesn't even exist)
You beg Jesus to wash it away and pay for ur sins.
such disgusting fellows

men like Hitler and Osama could surely make heaven. It takes 3 seconds to accept Jesus.

Commit all the sin u like now but just remember to accept Jesus before u die.

You Christians are really spoiling the world

Nonsense.
Go on then. There is a difference between being accountable and bearing the consequence. Be accountable for your sins, and bear their consequences Actually, that's what you do when you reject a substitute who Is willing and able to take up just punishment for your sins himself.

In response to the question of why I always speak of hell(I don't speak of only hell fyi, I speak of judgement and mans salvation too)
it is only when a man realizes the filthiness and consequences of his sins(hell) that he values and accepts a saviour who is able to save him.

Quit your whining and come and look at this thread by Kay17 and give us your opinion:

https://www.nairaland.com/1506143/possibility-natural-intelligence


You just refuse to accept the spiritual.

Kay 17: Don't confuse Consciousness for a Thing, its a sense/channel of self awareness, it is relational to a subject (we). Souls and Spirits are entities/objects for themselves.

I do not confuse consciousness for "a thing"
Consciousness is an attribute. I believe its a given attribute.

wiegraf: Yes, except intent in our case is subtly complex.



Obviously most don't think so. I clearly do, no?



How can nothingness be disordered? That asides, both.

so machines arise from complex nothingness?

Okay.
Clarify intent.
Do machines have intent?
Are machines conscious?

Is a fly conscious?
Yes. It is alive.
Is a pig conscious?
Yes. It is alive.
Is an ape conscious?
Yes, it is alive. It learns.
Does learning involve thought?
Do animals think?
Or is it just instinct?
Can instinct be overridden or modified by thought?
I do not think so.

Is a dog conscious? Yes. It is alive, it learns and continually adapts to its environment.

Is a computer conscious? Is a computer program conscious and capable of thought?

Humans are conscious. They exhibit the greatest form of consciousness. The breath of life.
The breath of life is the source of thought, will, emotion. The brain is just a pathway that relates this source to the body.
Do computers learn?

Do computers think?
Let's have an example.
Language.
Speaking(organized willful speaking) involves thought does it not?

Is a computer capable of language? Are pigs or insects or even apes capable of language? No.(Do not embarass yourself by telling me the the vocal instincts of animals = language)
Animals may be the most advanced machines ever created, capable of learning and adapting.
Humans are more than machines.
Natural intelligence varies in degrees.
Non-living cannot have natural intelligence. Can they? Do we believe they can in the future?
Well I believe in God. And believing the non-living will have natural intelligence in the future is blind and unreasonable faith.

Humans have the highest form of natural intelligence. Some blame evolution for this. But intelligence cannot be evolved.
Kinds remain kinds.

But humans have more than natural intelligence. They have consciousness and supreme self awareness and rational thought and will.
Humans have spirit. Soul. This is not physical.
This cannot be inculcated into non-living things.

wiegraf: We are machines.


$hitstorm imminent

Definition of machine(wikipedia):
A machine is a tool containing one or more parts that uses energy to perform an intended action.

Are we machines?
Do you really think we're machines?

Okay, let's use your stance. Machines are created(bummer?)
Or do machines arise from complex and disordered nothingness?

plaetton: Would you understand and appreciate Shakespear if you just read a chapter here and a verse there randomly each time you want to score a religious point?

no that's not what I meant sir. I meant I read by topic like tex said.

Once I finish a study, God directs me to a new one.

Mr Troll: Have you read the bible cover to cover. Your answer was not clear. See Tex's answer. Clear and concise.

@Tex, you found absolutely nothing amiss with the character of the old testament Yahweh?

Edit: Don't answer that Tex.

yes I have.

This might help.
http://www.gospelanswers1.com/WomenPreachers.php

Mr Troll: Have you read the bible cover to cover? Be sincere now. How long did it take you?

yes, but I don't do uniform reading most times. I've read portions of the bible and the epistles several times. I used to do uniform reading before, but I don't do that now.
I don't really take time records.

Mr Troll: The thing tire me o. Where people are proud of their ignorance. Where people are too lazy to read anything more than 1 page long. Where people prefer to just swallow hook, line and sinker what their pastor says instead of actually reading the bible for themselves. . .

I'm telling you NONE of all these NL christians have actually read the bible cover to cover. Rinse and Repeat. All of them. . .

you are definitely wrong. I can still speak to you since you have not yet disregarded my testimony as lies and the 'vomiting of a deluded person'.

Before I met God, the bible was like a closed novel. I was just like you. Reading the bible only at church services or when I was 'forced' by my parents.

But after I met God. I couldn't get my hands off this book that I could now understand as the word of God. I was blessed every time I studied. God himself was there, speaking and teaching.
Why would I lie to you?

I've told you before, the real deal is out there, growing and getting discipled by God. Stirring for a revival.

When one becomes a christian, no body will be begging him or forcing him to read the bible. He will know its importance. It'll be life to him. He'll have questions answered.

I remember months after the meeting, I'd read the bible for hourrrrsssss a day(I had ample time then).
I'd forsake the normal things that could distract a young man and continue in Gods word. And I was really blessed I tell ya. I really grew in Christ. I know that Gods word is life. I can't get enough.

rationalmind: Lol, is this really your reply? You can't defend these things josh. You'll keep trying in vain. I was laughing seriously reading your responses. I don't even know where to start from replying.

I was laughing seriously at you shouting gbam as if you had won.
How hard is it to understand that the world was perfect, and handed to man. Man had dominion. But he ruined thorld with sin. If I hand you a perfect gift, a faultless gift, how would you tell me that you can't fault its perfection by choosing to manhandle it?

alfaman1: well, from that definition, god is definitely not perfect.

how is he not perfect?

macof: everybody must have done some bad things in the past or even right now. However ur good deeds balances it up.

If u think doing bad and then accepting Jesus can save u from the law of karma then u are deceiving urself

Ur points promotes hatred and evil among humans,
Do all the evil u like, but just accept Jesus before u die.

And that's nt the case

If u like accept Sango, if u do bad, Sango himself would punish u

accepting Jesus makes you acquitted before the judge since he has borne your punishments for you.
Good deeds can never balance up bad deeds. I've said this before. God is a judge. You cannot be found guilty of commiting bad deeds and use good deeds to try to bribe him to enter into heaven.

alfaman1: You are just saying that god is perfectly useless.

we might soon find out.
You blame God for mans destroying of his perfect works?

per·fect/ˈpərfikt/
Adjective:
Having all the required or desirable elements, qualities, or characteristics; as good as it is possible to be

texanomaly: @ Josh go church.

I dey go very soon. Na afternoon service I dey go.

[quote author=frank3.16]Lol, many are going to hell bcause of sin after God's' productive plan. Didnt he die because of people sin? how is the killing of his son productive when many would still go to hell?
God seem to like to involve in many unproductive plans, lets mention a few:

1. Created the angels with a long term plan that they should worship him but it all went wrong with lucifer and his hosts doing other wise

2. Created man to serve and worship him, but it all went wrong cos man sinned,

3. Created the world perfect, but now in dissarray.

4. Destroyed people of noah's time because of sin, still sin abound after indulging in such a task of sending rain for forty days and forty nights. What exactly did he intend to acheive in such an unproductive plan.

5. Destruction of sodom and gomorah... Of what use, the world is worse than sodom was.

6. Tower of babell: yes he destroyed mans plan to stop man from reaching the heavens, today man is going beyond.

6. Sent his only begotten son to die and
Save man from sin. Ahhh the world is even more sinful than it was when jesus came.

Why exactly is he perfect again?[/quote]
How does this prove God isn't perfect? Nawa for you o.
God is perfect, man has freewill.

1. The devil chose to be evil, how does that reduce Gods perfection?

2. Man chose to sin, how does this diminish Gods perfection? It actually establishes Gods perfection In creating thinking beings with freewill.

3. Created the world perfect, handed it to man, man sold out to sin. And this is the world today.

4. What exactly did God intend to achieve? He did not intend to eradicate sin, he intended to punish mankind for her sins. And it was a terribly productive plan. This should sober you up to realize the zeal of God in punishing sin in the judgement to come.

5. Destruction of sodom and gomorrah? See no. 4 above. It should tell you of the terrible consequence for sin: death. Eternal death.

6. You misunderstand what happened at the tower of babel. God stopped man from being wiped out completely all over again.

7. Sent Jesus to die for the sinful world. The world still wallows in sin. But there are people of light still. This should tell you that the world is asking all the more for Gods wrath and judgement by rejecting this salvation. Revelation tells of the judgement of God.

God is perfect. He is also perfect in judgement.

You see what you're doing? You're looking for excuses. You're trying to justify your continuing in sin and unbelief.

Stop looking for excuses before you die in your unbelief and add to the growing number of hell.
Come and be added to heaven, the family of God.

[quote author=frank3.16]I am not one that like reigns insult, but ur post is just so annoying that i am tempted to.

Ok, i have heard u. Even though u choose to believe that all u said must make sense to me. I am now a born christian, praise the lord!!

Multitude are going to heaven? Ok lets continue to pretend that few are going to hell, No wonder all the world is such a nice place with so many heaven bound people ruling it.

Productive plan? My friend, stop being a clown with ur 'factual' statement. U are the one who thinks i am joking[/quote]I didn't say few are going to hell. The way you were saying people are going to hell, I was afraidd you were going to think nobody would go to heaven. So here's the verse:
Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

The reason many go to hell is because of sin. Why would you want to join them?

Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Thank you for the post.

In southafrica, during(or just after) the arpatheid regime, the government invited a pastor to ask him how he could get both whites and blacks to attend his church successfully.
He told them it was Gods love. When people become christians, they have Gods love shed in their hearts, and they look upon others as brethren.

Let us preach the heartpiercing message of Gods love in our churches. It changes men.

macof: I am good but according to ur Christan doctrine my goodnes is worthless, I must believe and worship Jesus.

Jesus here is trying to force himself on people with fear of hell.

How are you good?
Have you ever lied before? Then you're a liar. It takes one lie to be a liar.
Have you ever taken what doesn't belong to you?
Have you ever looked at a woman lustfully? Then you're an adulterer

Have you ever used Gods name to express disgust? Then you're a blasphemer.

And many more.
If you're guilty of any of the breaking of Gods law, then you're bad.
[quote author=frank3.16]Guy, it surprises me how God needs u so much to defend him.
even before his death Jesus talked about how narrow d way is meaning he knew about ¦w difficult it would b for humans to follow his way and belive in him.
Why would God, the creator of heaven and
Earth, the ominipotent and Ominipresence God, the i am that i am and Blah blah blah
Want to gamble with his life to save a few. Why would he sacrifice his life knowing that there was still a possibility of millions sufferin for eternity after his effort. Why not device a more productive plan since he is all loving and knowing.
Why sacrifice himself and then allow the success of his sacrifice to depend on those he suffered for? Drama drama drama.
Pls for reasons i dont know, all u explanations do not jst make sense, unfortunately i will be banished in helll for all the senselessness i feel.[/quote]jesus is the most productive plan. God would gamble because he loves man and he doesn't want us all to perish. There will be multitudes in heaven. Why can't you be one of them? Why would you choose to continue in sin and end up in hell because you're intimidated by the numbers in hell? Make your choice. Death or life? Good or evil?
This is not about worship. Its about sin and just punishment for sin(death) and Gods gift of life(the sacrifice of Jesus)
It is real and factual, recorded in the bible.

You cannot say it does not make sense because I've answered your questions. Why do you delay. Do you think this is a joke? Your eternal wellbeing? Are you intimidated by the ages?

Choose life. Choose to be redeemed from sin and be truly free. Choose to know God.

Kay 17: Why did God choose to impose a duty of justice upon himself?

should lawlessness and evil go unpunished?

macof: If Jesus died for humanity then humanity should be saved already, we don't have to worship him before we claim the salvation. I can smell conspiracy all around christianity, I don't see the relevance of believing in him before u can make heaven, it's all just a political strategy. A good man who doesn't believe in Jesus would go to hell, while a bad man who recently repents 3secs before death makes heaven, this sounds like a proud Jesus not humble one, a Jesus that is hungry for recognition and worship.

No spirit or gods in pagan spirituality would do that. If he makes a sacrifice in the name of humanity, it should cut across all humans, Christian or not.

You Christians inherit the racist and discriminative attitude of Jews

Jews also believe if u are not Jew, you pay for ur sins against God, because only Jews are children of God
According to Jewish law, all Christians of the world shall be punished by Elohim for spreading lies and blasphemy.

I prefer to believe the Jews rather than believe a religion that was only created as a political game by Romans

why are you always speaking in this way. Ask yourself what the standard of good is first and ask yourself the question: are you a good man?
If there's a heaven,(the preempt is for the doubters), Do you deserve to go there?

Jesus will not force his salvation on you when all you'll keep doing is continue to break the laws and reap the punishment he saved you from

mazaje: You are a failed fear monger. . .

its not ordinary fear I speak of. This is serious stuff. Is that all you have to say. I believe mankind will suffer in hell if they reject this good sacrifice of christ and keep on sinning. Best to speak seriously about the matter at hand, which is salvation.

That's how it is with God.
People these days even venture into lawlessness all the more, insulting this sacrifice and insulting the judge himself. He is patient, but justice will come still.

Romans 2:4 Or perhaps you despise his great kindness, tolerance, and patience. Surely you know that God is kind, because he is trying to lead you to repent. 5 But you have a hard and stubborn heart, and so you are making your own punishment even greater on the Day when God's anger and righteous judgments will be revealed. 6 For God will reward each of us according to what we have done.

[quote author=frank3.16]Thanks mr josh... I appreciate ur kind words about my beloved lost ones.

Back to topic... What then is use of his sacrifice (jesus i mean) if the so many pple he died for because they didnt bElieve in him still do not believe in him after the sacrifice? I mean we still have to believe in him to be saved, dont we? He would have just remained in heaven and asked us to believe in him or perish instead of going though the sacrifice.
Drama drama drama, that is what pisses me up with christianity. Does jesus ever consider his sacrifice a failure upon seeing the number of pple going to hell? If it were me and i die for my mum yet she sent to jail i will consider my sacrifice a failure[/quote]people are going to hell, but multitudes have gone, and are going to heaven. Those who recognize this great love respond in repentance and faith.

You wouldn't consider your sacrifice a failure sir, you'll consider your mum a failure. You sacrificed so she wouldn't have to go to jail, but she rejected your sacrifice and messed up all the more. The judge who knows about your sacrifice would even give her a bigger jail term for not valueing the precious gift you bought for her.

gothrones: So am I. Since I am now living in America, I have made my peace that my children will most likely not speak Yoruba. I have more chances of meeting non-Yoruba women than Yoruba ones. Even if I marry a Yoruba woman, it will still be hard to teach them the language because of our surroundings. I doubt that the children will want to learn a language that they can only use with two people.

sir.
I believe if you start speaking the language to the child from a tender age, he'll pick it up. He'll also pick up the local language spoken in his environment. This has been proved in families I've seen.

[quote author=frank3.16]Honestly mr. Josh, i will do it for my late mum or fiance if i know that i will simply come back to my human form after humiliating myself for these two loved ones. If am told. "Go to jail for them and Take back ur glory in a greater form after a few year" i will gladly do it.
We humans have sacrificed more. What did jesus go through? My girl (who was a christian) did in a car crash that caused her to burn to death? Jesus didnt even suffer half of waht she had went through while burning to death.
It wasnt even a sacrifice for her, yet she went through it for nothing, but ur jesus went through humiliation and torture only to rise again in glory, and and we cant hear any word. Yet he is ready to torture pple in hell for nt believing in him.
Pls take such god and dont bring him around me[/quote]were your late mum and fiance sinners who would not appreciate your sacrifice?
Your case is about going to jail. This is about death

He bore the wages of our sins: death

Don't say that sir. Would you give your life for a person who sins and who probably wouldn't even appreciate your sacrifice and continue to sin in the future?
Jesus died for us sinners, from the most refined sinner, to the worst kind of murderer. He died for those who mocked him on the cross and still mock him today. He prayed for those who tortured him.


I'm sorry for your loss sir. But think of it. She died. It caused you sorrow(I know that kind of sorrow, my heart grieves even now). And you loved her. Well sir. Jesus was killed by the same people he loved. He died for them.

The harshness of death can drive a man further away from truth and reality, or push him closer to it.

I feel your loss sir. I pray you'll find comfort and joy and hope and salvation in Christ Jesus.