₦airaland Forum

Viaro i want to know your foundation views[so we get somewhere in the end] as mine are clear so you could answer these questions for me

1.after seeing so many scriptures[ i would not quote unless you request for u know them] do you believe that jesus and God are distinct entities but still one God just as it is in marriage?

if not tell me what you think in regards to the points of my question

Viaro i have answered your questions so it is high time you made another point known instead of using me to walk circles

if this "My point is that you've been too bsy guessing and closeing your eyes to Scripture so you could argue forever on your fallacies" is your point then it means you have reached a full stop on this "begotten" point and would want you to move on,shed more light on your point or let me move on.

You say jesus was not begotten thereby making him the supreme authority but i say he was begotten and is a subordinate to the higher power who gave all things into his hands.

Hence, you have to tell me how he came into existence if not begotten and how a supreme power to him gave him all things if he was the owner of all by then.

First begotten means that jesus was the first occurrence of a SON which God caused to be.

Only begotten means that jesus exists alone of his kind which is a son of God.

only begotten and first begotten dont mean the same thing as my defs. have shown.

There is no other first or only begotten Son of God that i know of.

So what is your point?

and while i am at it i want to know what you believe"begotten" to mean? other than being brought into existence by someone else which makes that person your superior.

for as far as i know jesus was begotten so would you like to shed some light on that?

viaro i did not say they are separate gods i say that only the father is God and the others are his subordinates. and i did not agree with your union. i was just trying to explain to you on your own terms.

I have seen your questions and will answer them properly before i bring in more points. i just dont know the need of the questions hence i have to make sure they are answered to suit any reason for which you may want them.

Oh! viaro i now get your understanding of the trinity[correct me if i am wrong] you believe it to be similar to the husband and wife as one.

this clearly shows us that though they are one flesh;they are not the same person and yet they are called couple[God] they are two different people. and that is my point.

while jesus is one with God[because he follows his fathers ways as solidified in jn.14.20 where his disciples are in him too]he is not yahweh just as a wife does not bear her husbands real name but his family name.

According to your belief jesus is one flesh with God but assuming my marraige analogy is correct they are not the same person so jesus is not Yahweh.
The trinity is the belief that God is jesus and the holy spirit and that is what i am against.

Here peter is against all the ways in which our ladies make themselves beautiful and even go to the house of God saying you have to look good for God or that God only looks at the heart.

though i am not against women looking good but thus says the bible!

you have not addressed my point on john.3.35

my point is that there is someone higher up than jesus and that person is the one who gave him all things and this is directly supported by john.14.28 where jesus says the father is greater than him.
My point is that the person higher up is THE ONLY GOD while jesus is THE ONLY LORD

stop dodging bullets by claiming that i am twisting verses for i have told you where i quote from

Viaro

my good news talks about God given power to jesus if you read it well[seeing as u read the version]

given someone sometin and given power over somethin all drive to the same point;the person is not the richest[didn't always own everything] or the most powerful or most supreme- there is someone above the person[which is the point i am trying to drive across] so what is your point in hammering on it?

someone else has already explained that john.1.1 and you could do well to find it or if i have time i would tell you the post number.

For viaro's sake i quote from kingjv
john.3.35
The father loves the son and has GIVEN all things into his hand.

doesn't it point to the same fact that jesus didn't always have all things??
that it was GIVEN to him out of love and not that he owned it?

@viaro
Jesus was begotten by God before the creation of the world and he lived in glory with his father

MY VERSES ARE FROM THE GOOD NEWS BIBLE[how many times do you want me to tell you]

about my analogy-what's your problem with who makes the goods? my analogy makes clear how God created all through his son so what's up?

What sense are you trying to make through things made THROUGH HIM for i did not deny that

finally your attack on john.3.35 does not flow! are you insinuating that GOD did not give christ power over all?? when you give someone power what are you doing? are you not "empowering" him?

i am tired of your allegations about me dodging questions for you know i have answered all that make sense so if you mind you could repeat at least one of them.

1.peter.3.3-4
You should not make use of outward aids to make yourselves beautiful, such as the way you do your hair, or the jewelry you wear. Instead your beauty should consist of your true inner self, the ageless beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is of the greatest value in God's sight.

1.tim.2.9
i want the women to be MODEST and sensible about their clothes and to dress properly;NOT WITH FANCY HAIR STYLES OR WITH GOLD ORNAMENTS OR PEARLS OR EXPENSIVE DRESSES, but with good deeds as it is proper for women who CLAIM TO BE RELIGIOUS.

MY FINAL ASSAULT
1.Cor.8.6
There is ONLY one GOD, THE FATHER, who is the CREATOR OF ALL THINGS and for whom we live and there is only one LORD, JESUS CHRIST through whom all things were created and through whom we live.

The normal saying [though not in the bible] is that
Father [Yahweh] +Son [Jesus] +holy spirit=GOD [trinity]
But this verse as quoted from the BIBLE tells us that, Father [Yahweh] =GOD [1]
And Son [Jesus] =LORD [1]

As this verse shows us, we live for the father [Yahweh] our God because he is our creator and not his son.

[For those confused about how the father made all things through the son I will explain like this; If you send your driver to give some goods to your mother, can it be said that it was your driver that generously gave to your mother??]

Lastly
Jn.3.35
The father loves the son and puts everything under his power.

Jesus cannot be God because he was “empowered” by someone which means that if Jesus is to be God there will always be a higher God-the one who empowered him.

[p.s. you cannot empower yourself but someone else.]

With this I would have loved to pass the verdict that JESUS IS NOT GOD and that THERE IS NO TRINITY, but I would want to see the opinion of viaro et al on this post
[pls attack my post directly and don’t bring up other post or verses for this will make us continually move in circles and I am tired of playing that game with you guys]

I really THINK people should stop keeping their minds on this rapture thing and instead find ways to contribute to and enjoy life as well as live in union with christ in your time cos u may die before this rapture as many others before you did.

The end time you should be worried about should be of the time you die and leave this world.

Why did you guys decide to stop using your brains??

Did muhammed see the disciples of christ?wasn't it the disciples of christ that the helper was coming to meet ,teach and help?

your brains are not for taking hook line and sinker what you are told but to rationally think about it.stay blessed.

@toba
what is the meaning of that question?I READ MY BIBLE!if you are interested in an argument or row find someone else!

not exclusively -exception to those which are said by God like as you said 'God said'

You have rilly forgotten that Jesus was a jew and practiced judaism or are islam and judaism the same

i mean that the bible was not written by God neither did he read to the writers what to write except the prophesies in the OT and the revealation

what's up with you Muslims and your 'Jesus was a Muslim story'?We all know that Jesus was a Jew,practiced Judaism and worshiped in the temple so wat's ur point?

You also forget that Christianity,judaism and islam all talk of the same God of Abraham so why because of that brand christ a muslim?

HE PRACTICED JUDAISM!

The bible is not God's word but a record of events and opinions of the human authors on events.

First things first i did not run but my internet connection was faulty.
2.whats up with the Jehovah W? i neither attend nor accept them into my house.

C'mon viaro i never said that it was when jesus came to earth that he was given power over over all.

Lastly are you trying to tell me that the father and son were not worshipped separately?[only God knows what your brain is for]Are you forgetting that there were two thrones even in rev.22?Have you forgotten that in john.14.1 jesus asked the disciples to believe in God and ALSO in him?what are you trying to say?

John3.35. “The father loves the son and puts everything in his power”

Doesn’t john.3.35 clearly destroy all claims that Jesus is God?? Doesn’t it show that Jesus didn’t always have power over everything??

Doesn’t it show that the father has everything but CHOSE to give all to his son OUT OF LOVE??

Jesus cannot have being the owner of everything from the start and yet be given everything by someone.

Isn’t it clear that even if Jesus were to be God there will be a higher power than him-the one who gave him power over it all??

Is it to hard to understand that Jesus is now the owner of everything because it was GIVEN to him and not that it always belonged to him?

Why have you decided to close your eyes to the truth? Are your minds as closed as prophesied in john.12.40? My heart burns for you!

Viaro still wont let go of why jesus is to be worshiped[or honored] even if i have explained why using john.3.35 that he is to be worshiped becos God GAVE him power over everything out of love.

looking critically you would wonder why God gave jesus what he already owned or why God gave to himself out of love.
2.You would wonder why Jesus and God were worshiped separately in rev. since they are still the same person and why the Holy spirit was not worshiped too since the other two of the proposed 'trinity' were worshiped.

Viaro has decided not to see reason so anyone trying to show him the way is wasting valuable time which is why i pleaded with him earlier to abandon this thread.

Christianity tells me it secures my hereafter so give me concrete proof or something i ld be looking for

To any other person who is still wondering if jesus is God.

I am tired of listing point upon point so i decided to break it down.

It is clear that The father and the son are two different bodies as in the book of rev. especially 5.13 and john.14.1 where Jesus said he should be believed separately from the father.

So we now ask ourselves
Why did Jesus not have the same power as his father as shown in matt.12.28 and why did he have restricted knowledge as he did not know the time of his coming.
You can neither be more powerful nor knowledgeable than yourself.you can only be better than another.

you also ask yourself why you would give yourself something or give someone what he already owns as said in jn.3.35 where God GAVE jesus power over everything.

this clearly shows you that jesus is not God but if you are still in doubt go through the entire thread.peace

WHY THIS ARGUMENT IS HEADING FOR A STALEMATE WHILE ARGUING WITH VIARO.

Viaro on the verge of being swept away by the overwhelming points has decided to hold onto a weak point as a tree when in fear of being swept by the flood.

Viaro still holds onto why Jesus is worshiped even though rev.5.13 and the book of rev. shows them to be two different people [since worshiping the son is not the same as the father which is why they were worshiped separately]and i have explained why Jesus is to be worshiped but viaro has decided not to understand which shows that there is no point continuing this argument.

Viaro has also decided to hold onto mystery,saying we cannot grasp it then you are forced to wonder why he has being trying to explain what we and himself cannot grasp.

with this i plead with viaro to quit the thread so that we can explain to those who are willing to understand.peace

Can you please tell me why i should drop Christianity for Islam??

VIARO!!!
Haven t i told you why he is to be worshiped or have you resigned all argument just to hold onto your points
if it is so then you should stop sending the point and keep it to yourself for i have explained it.peace

i repeat
Jesus is to be worshiped because according to john.3.35 everything has been PUT under his power by GOD.we worship God becos we are under his power and as we are under Jesus power too we have to worship him too.

havent you reasoned that you dont give someone what belongs to him??yet God gave jesus power over everything.

@viaro
i want us to reach a verdict together so pls answer this question and those to follow.
1.After studying the way Jesus related and referred to God the father as a different entity['i am the way to the father',my God my God why hast thou forsaken me?] and the book of revelation do you believe that Jesus and God are separate entities but still one God?

I was at first very amazed at the add up of vicarius filii dei in roman numerals as 666 until i saw that 'U' was equated as 5. so i would want the mathematician to tell me if u is also 5