₦airaland Forum

@grouppoint,
So the bottomline from what you are saying is that GOD knows those that will make heaven and hell already but HE doesn't interfere with their decision. Am I right? So what is the essence of the preachings we do if those that will make heaven are already known by God?

@ Group point,
Sir, you made a very good point.

@ allonym,
I see your point.

@hot coco,
you better give your life to christ before you realise the truth that this earth is no hell.

@ iroro,

The word 'Amen' makes its first appearance in the Bible under the most solemn circumstances. When a husband accused his wife of adultery, and she protested her innocence, and she had not been caught in the act, the matter was settled by God under the test of bitter water (Num 5:12-31). The woman was taken to the priest, and the priest put her under oath. She submitted to a ceremony in which she drank some water containing dust from the tabernacle floor. If she had committed adultery, she was be cursed with a wasting disease, but if she did not get sick, then she was proven innocent and her husband was proven wrong.

During the ceremony, when the priest pronounced the curse, the woman was required by God to say, "Amen, Amen". (Num 5:22). That is the first occurrence of the word in scripture. The Lord commands it to be said by a person who is yielding herself to examination by him in his presence.

The word 'Amen' probably goes back a long way. Some think it is of pagan origin (there was an Egyptian god called Amen-Ra). Perhaps that ancient usage reflects an even earlier existence of the word. As to its use in the Bible, however, we first encounter the word in this commandment spoken by the Lord (Num 5:22).


Why do we say 'Amen'?
The word 'Amen' is almost always the last word of a solemn statement. In the first example, it was said by the woman at the end of the priest's pronouncement of the curse and of her taking the oath. We find the word "Amen" as the last word in several instances in the Bible.

The word is found in the last verses of the Bible (Rev 22:20-21).
The first three books of Psalms end with Amen (Psa 41:13, 72:19, 89:52).
Most books of the New Testament end with it (KJV).
In the land of Israel, when a prayer or prophecy was made, or a law of God was read, "All the people said, 'Amen'" (Neh 5:13, 8:6).
The Lord's example prayer ends with 'Amen' (Mtt 6:13).
Paul uses the word seven times in his letter to the Romans at the end of doxologies or benedictions  ?  (Rom 1:25, 9:5, 11:36, 15:33, 16:20,24,27)
Paul implies that people should say 'Amen' at the end of a prayer in church (1Co 14:16).
The word "Amen" appears therefore to be the fitting last word for solemn utterances made before God.


What Does 'Amen' Mean?
Oddly, to get a scriptural answer to what 'Amen' means, we go to a place where it is used not as the last word but the first word. Jesus would often start a solemn statement by saying "Verily" or "Truly". In John's gospel (eg Jhn 3:3) Jesus is recorded as using the word twice in succession, "Verily, verily, I say to you, ". This is actually the word "Amen".

When we compare an instance of this in Mark, with the same statement in Luke, we find Mark has left the word untranslated (just as αμην "Amen", but Luke has translated it using the word αληθος "Truly". (Mark 9:1, Lke 9:27). This shows us that the underlying meaning of the word "Amen" is truth and verity. It is a solemn affirmation. When we say, "Amen" we are saying, "Yes before God I agree with that, I believe that to be true, I want that to be so".

In some other interesting and helpful passages,

Instead of saying, "Amen, Amen" Jeremiah paraphrased the second Amen in his statement, "Amen, the Lord do so" (Jer 28:6).
One of God's names or titles is "The God of Truth". If we left the last word untranslated, the title would read, "The God of Amen" (Isa 65:16).
Paul uses the word as an affirmation when he says of Christ, "For as many as may be the promises of God, in him they are 'yes' and in him 'amen'" (2Co 1:20).
One of the names of Jesus is "The Amen, the Faithful and True Witness" (Rev 3:14).
These passages show us that the word "Amen" is a solemn affirmation of truth, a special word that we can use whenever we have said (or heard) something that is true before God.

Amen.

_{Source: Simply christians,Australia (A bible study resource) http://members.datafast.net.au/sggram/f484.htm}

suave:
I have a puzzling question to ask, a very controversial and intricate one, it has left my friend and i puzzled. Hear it goes:-

We all agree that God knows the end from the beginning, aight? He also knows what Mr. A and sundry will end up. If he does, does that mean he knows if Mr. A will go to hell and no matter how hard he tries he'll surely make hell.


KDK, K2 and others in the house I'm counting on you.

@ Suave,
The question you asked is what 2 others have asked before you and to be sincere,the answer to this thread is the answer to your question and as such, I implore you to please be patient with us as we test all schools of thought before producing the answer as supported by the bible (which ultimately is the overall reference) because it is written in Galatians 1:8 "But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed"

"what if God is Omniscience in the sense that He knows all possible choices anybody can make at any given time and all the possible consequences of these choices? viewed from this point i don't see a conflict between Gods Omniscience and our free will."


@ k2 and Lafile,
I will go back to my illustration of Alex and the 2 balls. What you guys are saying is that God is omniscient in the sense that he knows the consequences of Alex choosing a black/Red ball but can not tell for sure which ball Alex will choose.
If you guys say that God can tell the consequences of each potential choice made by Alex but can not tell what exact choice Alex will make ( because Alex has free will) then I must conclude that you are indirectly saying that God is not omniscient because he can not tell what Choice Alex will make,am I right? In other words you guys are saying God is only prescient because he knows the outcome of choices but not omniscient because he can't tell what choice Alex will make since Alex has a freewill. (I stand to be corrected).
I hope with your own line of argument, you have been able to understand what bible scholars over the years have come to agree upon that omniscience and freewill has no meeting point. You just have to choose one of the two (either that man has freewill or God is omniscient) or better still, the 3 option which was included in my earlier post [(3) the alleged illogical relation between omniscience and the exercise of free will is mistaken (i.e. omniscience is not incompatible with the exercise of free will)].

God bless you all.


@ kpofkpof & izoneb,
you guys crack me up. Where it not that I knew the answer, I would have taken off myself like you guys.

@ avagemini,
welcome, I hope you enjoy our hospitality as we discuss the various issues of life. My name is KDK and I'm at your service ma'am.
@ charlisco,
Thank you for the pix but to be sincere, I do not care if it was weeping, sweating or peeing; it is still a statue.

@ nferyn,
Sorry for my seemingly disappearance. I had a particular strategy but the futility of it dawned on me as I sought wisdom; how can I be trying to explain something that is not of this world with things of this world? God belongs to a different realm- a higher dimension and as such I can only borrow the words of Paul in 1 Timothy 3:16 - Beyond all question, the mystery of godliness is great: He appeared in a body, was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was preached among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory.

@ HAVILA,
Abeg, help me beg am o o o. Me too dey learn from 2 of them o o

@ Dearzi
Because you've been making comments that indicates that you are of the LICENCE point of view. Perhaps you don't understand what I meant sha. It's all good.
Why are you leaving this conversation? I have been following this thread for a while and it was 'because of you and backslider I even had a post here.

@ Backslider,
      I like the way you put it :" if you don't have teeth start growing now" 


@ dearzi and backslider,
But seriously, the church has to be careful when it comes to matters such as the Pharisee- style legalism and spiritual pride on the one hand; and "hyper-grace" (licence), the casting off of restraint, and `experience- centred' Christianity which can also lead to great error on the other.

In other words, history has shown that the two extemities (i.e legalism and licence) has led to errors in the church.

@sam-carlos,
Sir, what are those fact you don't want to argue about? However, it will be worthy of note to understand that we are not here to argue but to share the little knowledge which we have with others. 

@ Basisqo,
Sir, it is not that I am hiding the deep things from them. It is just that bible advises that we don't feed babies with meat but rather with milk till they are old enough to take meat. Some of the readers may not be mature enough (spiritually) for the deeper things. With time , God will surely show them these things.
I will answer your question later because the answer to your question is the answer to this discussion but for now we will just rub minds. Thank you sir and God bless you

@ugonna,
If you'd read an earlier post of mine, you'd have seen where i stated categorically that there are several passages to support free-will just as well as there are several passages to support omniscience of God. So I am not arguing with you. i am only asking you to choose one. Either God is omniscient or Man has free will because you can't believe in the two since they seem to contradict ( read my last reply to K2).

K2,
To buttress the point of the non- intersection of free-will and omniscience, let us use this example:

If God is omniscient, it means HE knows all things before they happen, while they happen and after they've happened right?

The omniscience of God means He has a foreknowledge of everything before they happen. So, if we place 2 balls (Red and Black) in front of Alex and we ask Alex to choose one. Since God is Omniscient, it means He already knows the ball that Alex will choose even before He chose it, right? So if Alex chooses the black ball, it means God already knows he will choose the black ball meaning that Alex would not have chosen the Red ball, would he? If indeed Alex chose the red ball, it would mean God is not omniscient but since God Is omniscient, there is just no way Alex would have chosen the Red ball. If there is no way Alex would have chosen the red ball, it means there was no free-will given to Alex.
The two concepts – (i) Omniscience and (ii) human freedom – seem to be utterly incompatible. The challenge, then, is to find a way to show that either
(1) omniscience does not exist; or
(2) free will does not exist; or
(3) the alleged illogical relation between omniscience and the exercise of free will is mistaken (i.e. omniscience is not incompatible with the exercise of free will).

This has been the problems that bible scholars have faced over the ages.

@ Iroro,
How do you propose to take me to Warri and how do you stand as an interpreter for me when i come to france in November? I am tired of gesticulating in the name of communications, you know.

Hmmmmm. Cud we discuss offpage 'because there are some deep things i do not want our young christian readers to know for now.
There is no argument about it, free- will and omniscience of God does not seem to tally yet (or rather theologians are still trying to tally them , for instance read the question ugonna posed abt the occurence in the garden of eden); there are so many passages in the bible that challenges the omniscience of GOD and yet so many that supports it. This is not something that just cropped up. It is something that have posed a very great difficulty for theologians even as early as 900 a.d. Some have argued that God is 'outside of time' (or that 'His knowledge is timeless') and thus His knowledge is not foreknowledge at all, i.e. God's knowledge does not occur before (or during, or after, for that matter) any events in the world. The reason for this line of argument is 'cos strong arguments for freewill totally contradicts omniscience of God. You mentioned the Apostle Paul, do you actually know what Paul thinks about the subject?

@ Liquidmind,
Repent of sodomy my friend.

If man has freewill, then how can God be omniscient? I don't want to go too deep in this but the truth of the matter is this. You can not believe that God is omniscient and at same time believe that man has free will. You have to choose one of the two.
To make this clearer to you, I am quoting Moses Maimonides (1135-1204) who puts it clearly thus:

"Does God know or does He not know that a certain individual (let's say the Prime Minister of Canada), on Feb. 3, 2081, will put on brown shoes when dressing in the morning? If thou sayest 'He knows', then it necessarily follows that the Prime Minister is compelled to act (i.e. to put on brown shoes) as God knew beforehand he/she would, otherwise God's knowledge would be imperfect. …"
So tell me, if man has free will, how can God be omniscient?

Hmmm, I am more than impressed! And who says I am a bible scholar? I am just a mere bible stydent. Try to find out more about hell. It is important you do.Remember the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man? Kindly systematically study it.
Now let me do the asking. Does man have free-will?

hehehehe,
If I answer the last question you asked abt Satan seeing God, I may even increase your confusion(bear in mind dat satan is not flesh and blood). If you read ur book of revelations well, you'd see that HEAVEN as a kingdom has zones. But I'd also like you to find the difference between paradise, heaven, hell and lake of fire.
As per the omniscience of God, I am still seeking wisdom.

what is confusing you there?

Browneyes,
I am really pitying for your soul. I will be blunt with you, you either accept JESUS christ or perish. (That is non-negotiable)

applause applause @ backslider,
Very few christians know the truth about christmas and some other things which the catholic church brought in during their romance with paganism especially in Rome. I must applaud your courage and time in giving an expose on Islam, one of the most celebrated forms of paganism. God bless you but please change your user name from backslider.

ok.

There is no need to ask God to forgive them because HE already has. All they need do is seek the blood that cleanseth all sins.

Hmmm, quite an interesting piece. Atleast una dey use una brain do better thing unlike some yahoo yahoo boys. God bless you @ kikanuka.

This question is redundant as questions ,answers and proofs have been given from the early 1900's about this same subject matter e.g study the life of Smith Wiggleswort (A.K.A Apostle Of Faith), Charles G. Finney and John Wesley.

@ iroro,
I still dey await my answer o o o.

Hmmm, you guys are giving me more insight into the truth about my being banned by SEUN under very scrupulous reasons. So he is a muslim. Hmmm, no wonder he banned me. I guess he doesn't like some of my comments. Boy, am I pleased to hear that.

PART 2

The following best explains another way of looking at it.

John 3:13 states, "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that
came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven."

Of the translation of Enoch, we have these passages:

Genesis 5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took
him.

Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death;
and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his
translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Although the passages do not say specifically that Enoch went to heaven,
it sure seems that he went to be with God. I will admit that this could
be argued, but what was the purpose of God taking the one who walked with
Him if he was to be taken to a place where he would not be in continual
fellowship with God?

But look at the statements concerning Elijah:

2Kings 2:1 And it came to pass, when the LORD would take up Elijah into
heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal.

2Kings 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked,
that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and
parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

These verses teach specifically that Elijah was taken up into heaven.
Again, this might be a different heaven. Others have written and
questioned how these men could be in heaven before the shedding of the
blood of Christ. Yet, I might add that Satan has access to heaven--at
least some part of it (Job 1:6). Perhaps these men did not yet have full
access to the glories of heaven or were not able to enter the throne
room. Obviously, I am not certain here. But the Bible seems to put them
in heaven when they were taken up by God.

This brings us back to the original problem. If no man had ascended up to
heaven until Christ ascended, how could Enoch and Elijah be there? At the
least, according to the plain statements of scripture, "no man hath
ascended up to heaven" even though Elijah "went up by a whirlwind into
heaven." Is this a contradiction? Not at all.

The Bible does not say that Elijah ascended to heaven. It says that he
was taken up. The word 'ascend' means to go up. It pictures someone or
something that goes up of its own strength. The word 'ascend' comes from
the Latin word for 'climb' and it literally means to climb up. We speak
of someone ascending the stairs. The first biblical use of the word is in
Genesis 28:12 where Jacob sees "a ladder set up on the earth, and the top
of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and
descending on it."

John 3:13 does not teach that no one has ever seen or entered heaven.It
teaches that no man ever climbed up into heaven by his own power. The
only one who has ever ascended to heaven in His own strength is the One
who originated in heaven and came down to earth before He ascended. I
hope this helps explain the verse to you.
Till He comes,

Pastor David Reagan



I hope Pastor Reagan answered your question concerning the subject. I will answer the other questions later as the Lord gives me wisdom to.