₦airaland Forum

Hmm

Ekt_bear I understand your point

As much as I like my culture and recognize the benefits of tradition, I'm not a fan of monarchies too, especially the pseudo-monarchies we have all over most parts of Nigeria, it's a joke really.

If the British imposed governmental system we inherited has the absolute power to decide which King is superior in Yorubaland or in Oyo (rotating council of Obas? WTF is that sef?)  we can as well pack shop and scrap the whole thing. You can imagine how many Baales are now turning themselves into kings, What is the point now?

My beef is not just with this perennial squabbling between Ooni and the Alaafin, it's with the whole system itself.

I mean, Since Alao Akala decides the royal pecking order in Oyo State, like other Governors and premiers before him did, what is the point of having a royal chieftaincy hierarchy tradition?  It basically rubbishes their role as custodians of culture and tradition If a governor can determine who is higher than who and who should rotate or step aside in a council of Oyo Obas 

So for me, I see no need for a system that has outlived its usefulness and lost it's ability to exercise both moral and political authority. We can as well turn the palaces into theme parks or museums and place curators in them.

I just can't imagine some Edo governor trying to raise up an Enogie over the Oba of Benin.

I can't believe I'm tempted to offer a defence for some arrogant Monarchs, anyway, I'll resist. BUT:

Pure Monarchy = extreme

ekt_bear's possibly Yankee-influenced anti monarchy tirade = extreme

BTW, the English arranged their invited Europrean monarchs by rank during William and Kates wedding. No? Everybody knew their place.

Lastly, EzeUche, you must break me some kolanut for using that quote without my permission, I have the sole rights to it on NL

PhysicsMHD:
You may be right here as well. Indian philosophy involves concepts of infinity and nothingness. Greek philosophy only involved concepts of infinity (the philosopher Zeno, for example). In fact, one Greek philosopher-scientist famously stated "Nature abhors a vacuum". The emphasis on concepts of infinity by the Greek philosophers may have influenced their mathematicians (such as Archimedes, who had ideas that foreshadowed calculus) and may explain why Western mathematicians were able to beat other mathematicians in discovering calculus.

However, it was the Indians, not the Europeans or other groups, that were the ones to introduce the concept of zero as a legitimate number into mathematics. The Greeks never even conceived of the number zero, despite all their intellectual sophistication. I think this might support that cultural theory of yours applying even to mathematics.

On the other hand, Indian mathematicians came close to discovering calculus in almost the same way that European mathematicians did:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerala_school_of_astronomy_and_mathematics#Infinite_Series_and_Calculus

which suggests that, despite the influence on culture of one's perspective/approach to a science , there are still universal elements/perspectives in that science, regardless of which culture one is operating in.

There are also numerous mathematicians or scientists of non-European origin (ethnically/racially) who have grown up in the Western world and made significant contributions to their fields while operating in a foreign culture.

These are some very Interesting examples you presented here. . .

I sometimes wonder about "outlier" geniuses like Tao too and why they seem to buck the trend, I'll offer an explanation below your quote. Just my opinion though:

The best example (though there are others) is Terence Tao:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terence_Tao
http://www.college.ucla.edu/news/05/terencetaomath.html

Tao is an ethnically Chinese mathematician who is 100% culturally Australian (and therefore Western).

How would you account for that? The greatest recent Chinese mathematician is 100% removed from his culture and is completely a Westerner. This is the kind of phenomenon that supports SEFAGO's idea of certain cultures being beneficial to the exhibition of  (latent) intelligence.

If he (Tao) had been raised in the Middle East (some Chinese are Muslim, so I could imagine a few making a pilgrimage and then sticking around, lol) , we might never have heard of him. I don't think he had to be immersed in Chinese culture and think about mathematics in Chinese in order to make great contributions to his field. He just had to be around the right influences. Unfortunately, for that particular field (mathematics) most of the right influences have a European or Asian origin, so if you were an African . . . .


Once again, you may be right. If one is to produce uniquely creative ideas, it would almost certainly be harder to do it while starting from the foundation of another group's language or imitating another group's approach. If you have to follow the conventions of another group linguistically, you might even be limiting your thinking to their thinking alone. I see what  you're saying.

Good question you asked: Now "How do we account for Geniuses like Tao"?

Tao and Genius outliers like him always remind me of Herrnstein and Murray's Bell Curve. I just think that there are some folks who are just so gifted that Culture and environment has little effect on them, now, they may not blossom if the social and cultural conditions are very hostile to them, but when they get the opportunity, they will always rise to the top of the curve.

In the humanities, Africa has examples like Soyinka, Achebe, Ngugi, Diop, Samir e.t.c.  folks who of course mastered the usage and application of alien/foreign languages and philosophies more than some of the best the original owners can offer.  We can also say that they fully assimilated, like the African American George Robert Carruthers, Meredith Gourdine e.t.c

or PhysicsMHD? 

BUT I'm more worried about those in the Mid-to-lower levels of the intelligence curve, Not for no reason, But because I believe, they, more than the "outlier" geniuses, will have the greater effect on how far we will progress as a society, as long as they stay alienated, we will continue to stagnate.

I'm concerned about how we can fashion out a way to make knowledge more accessible or more organic on a broader macro level. I realize that we need to nurture the geniuses(I'm not too worried about the geniuses) but the concomitant effect of having so many of our masses struggle with alien ideas due to the limiting effects of an alien language and culture is hurting us badly, at least it seems that way to me and it worries me a lot.

Yeah, I get what you're saying. It's true that scientific education needs to be made conformable to and complementary to, rather than contradictory to, African cultures and languages. But I still think we should be doing better than we are in most fields even while having to follow the conventions/thinking of others.

I totally agree, I really think we can do very much better, there are other obvious factors(which I totally blame us for) limiting our ability to even compete. I believe we can fix some of those on the short-term, to at least bridge the gap a bit faster.

Yeah, we'll see how things turn out.

If 40 years from  now, things haven't changed and we're still several steps behind, it will all but prove your theory right and we (I) would need to take steps to change our education.

That's very encouraging bro, especially the "I"

Yakubu Gowon is a lil bit worse than uncle Tom.

Yakubu Gowon = Uncle Ruckus

Seriously though, I'll never stop calling that sorry excuse for a leader out until he publicly apologize for his condescending remark about Nigerian Children.

Leaders like Yakubu Gowon -who ruled this country for 9 years and led a bogus unity war-  are the reason why we will find it hard to progress. We need to exorcise their rotten spirit and legacy out of our public space.

Just quotes:

"The Ogboni, headed by the Oluwo, was the third force(Third realm). Like the Oyo Mesi(kingmakers), the Alaafin(King) had little or no hand in the appointment of the Ogbonis, who were elected by the various lineages or noble families" -Oladipo Okege

"The Ogboni Society really holds the reins of government, and kings themselves are obliged to submit to its decrees. The members are popularly believed to possess a secret from which they derive their power, but their only secret appears to be that of a powerful and unscrupulous organisation, each member of which is bound to assist every other, while all are bound to carry out, and if necessary enforce, the decrees of the body" [like the Ancient Roman Senate?]

Though versions or lodges of this fraternal group are found among the various types of Yoruba polities——from highly-centralized kingdoms and empires like Oyo, to the independent towns and villages of the Ègbá and the Èkiti——the Ogboni are recognizable for their veneration of the personified earth (Ilè or Odua) and their emphasis on gerontocratic authority and benevolent service to the town. While membership in the Ogboni generally signified a high level of power and prestige, the society held pre-eminent political authority among decentralized groups like the Ègbá, where they were intimately involved in the selection of regents. To date, Ogboni members still command great power and influence in the affairs of the nation -Wikipedia (unverified)

[quote author=excerpt from an interesting Ogboni Refugee law case]Having reviewed the objective  materials before us, the Tribunal concludes that the Adjudicator reached entirely correct conclusions concerning the scope and power of the Ogboni cult in Nigeria.  As he found, and as paragraph 6.120 of the latest CIPU Report makes clear, the Ogboni are “a secret society of the Yoruba tribe”.   One of the sources cited for that conclusion in the CIPU Report is a letter of March 1998 from Dr B. Akintunde Oyetade of the School of Oriental and African Studies, University of London.  Dr Oyetade is, in fact, the author of a report on the Ogboni Society prepared on behalf of the  Appellant in connection with these Tribunal proceedings (pages 100-106 of  the Appellant’s bundle).  There is nothing in that report that can be cited as authority for the proposition that the Ogboni have any significant (or, indeed any) membership drawn from tribes other then the Yoruba.  Furthermore paragraph 6.124 of the April 2004
CIPU Report contains the statement that “the Ogboni is believed to be a purely Yoruba cult, but there are a number of Yoruba sub-tribes who also may be involved”. The source cited for this proposition, which in any event is little more than a reiteration of the point that emerges from paragraph 6.120, is “The Yoruba Ogboni cult in Oyo” by Peter Morton Williams
http://www.unhcr.org/refworld/country,,GBR_AIT,,NGA,,46836b170,0.html
.[/quote][quote author=from Reformed Ogboni website]Venerable Rev T.A.J Ogunbiyi CBE LTh founded the ROF on the 18th Dec 1918 at Obun Eko in Lagos Nigeria. As time went the fraternity considered admit non-Christians and all tribes, provided such entrants embrace a non-idolatrous believe in God,
http://reformedogboni.com/forum[/quote]Roman Catholic Church has Conclave of cardinals.

Reformed Ogboni Fraternity has Conclave of Initiates

See published list of conclaves (Iledi's) worldwide --> http://www.rof-worldwide.com/conclaves.html


[quote author=interesting info on Good vs Evil and the concept of duality in Yoruba Philosophy]Yoruba philosophy is not based on the European concept of good and evil with all life forces (ase) having the potential to be either good or bad. This balance between opposing forces is maintained in other opposites such as; male/female, dark/light, left/right, silence/noise, nature/culture, action/inaction. This philosophy based on tension between opposing forces manifests itself in the occurrence of duality in many Yoruba artworks. I will look further into the way in which[b] this duality manifests itself within the Efe/Gelede and Ogboni cults concentrating mainly on the opposing forces existing between male and female.[/b]

In Yoruba kingdoms the "Oba" does not hold absolute power but the power is limited to the almost equal power of the Ogboni elders. The Ogboni elders consists of the oldest and wisest members of the community. The Ogboni is a secret society and its members can be either male or female. The Ogboni cult worships "Onile" (owner of the earth) and the Ogboni will often intervene where a dispute arises and blood has been spilled on the ground. They will resolve the dispute and cleanse the space where the sacred earth has been stained by the spill of blood.

It is believed that the secret of the society is its members knowledge of a primordial unity which transcends the opposing forces that characterizes human experience (fagg 1982:186). This unity is emblemized by the unification of opposing forces to create a third and more powerful force. The Ogboni oath "two members becomes three" also emphasizes this idea of unification.[/quote]Christianity says; One becomes Three (Trinity)

Ogboni says: Two becomes three (Trinity)

Physics: Three dimensional space? just wondering 


That's all

Sorry for derailing ya thread folks. . .

*pours libation to the ancestors*

Aare Musiwa, Egbon, I totally agree with you.

OR Via Akure-Owo-Akoko-Kabba to Lokoja, many Farms and Towns around that axis need good road access to market.

Expanding Lagos-Benin-Ore is very vital though.

Hmm, So many mementoes on this thread. I'm saving it.

I'm proud of Imo people too.

@SEFAGO, Kai! you don stereotype my Naija sisters finish,  ROFL@ Nigerian women love church die

Not cool.

SEFAGO:
Yep all those claims- you are white washed or calling someone an Uncle Tom just slows down our progress. You gotta learn to play the game before you can win the game.

I guess I just want us to translate all those Relativity theory Shyyte + the whole Annals of Western Science into Yoruba

SEFAGO:
http://www.bellanaija.com/2011/02/14/tosin-otitoju-a-whizkids-journey-of-self-discovery-fulfilment/

This is another Yoruba whizkid. I think she is from Ekiti or Ondo. Best results in WAEC in the whole of Nigeria at the age of 15. Got into a PhD at Caltech at the age of 20 but dropped out to pursue her interest in drama. Got a national award from Nigeria at the age of 23. Wetin we dey chop sef?

Disclaimer: I dont really bellanaija oooh, that one na for girls:

Hmm, Didn't know she's already back in Nigeria, I remember her from the Newspapers, heard she got like straight A1's or so

Abandoned Engineering PhD for Drama ? hmm

Yea, she's Ekiti

SEFAGO:
This has always been my thesis too. Seems cultural similarity is one of the most important reasons for development in most countries. The need to be "western." Thats why the Chinese Government encouraged its best students to study in the US. It seems the west has set up everything in the system to favor themselves. We cant really do much now.

So maybe we should all become as western as possible. Its ok, to just assume defeat, and absorb the dominant culture, there isn't much we cannot do again. The Japanese and the chinese were already far into the "wheel of civilization" so they could maybe have some cultural inputs into science and technology. I think personally we should try and become as western as possible, to beat the big bad "West" we must become like them.

(sefago hides behind the wall from the pan-african abuse he is about to receive)

I guess the new Pan African/Afro-centric mantra should be-->  Don't hate, Assimilate^TM. Brotha!

[quote author=ekt_bear link=topic=661053.msg8273691#msg8273691 date=1304759561]6% GDP growth rate over the next 50 years isn't impossible (well, might be, but let's pretend it isn't ) If Italy is doing 1% over that time period. . . .then our GDP inceases by a factor of 18.4, Italy's by only 1.64

Exponential growth is a powerful thing [/quote]SMH, so no respect for the Cosa Nostra and the descendants of Julius Caesar anymore?

Anyway Mansa Musa once crashed gold prices, but his people now take foreign aids, so nothing new 

@Topic, what's up with Yale rejecting this girl? why are they so snobbish? I heard they only admit borderline lunatics and kids with weird Einstein-like academic profiles.

I wish this young girl well, very impressive achievement.

[quote author=ekt_bear link=topic=661053.msg8273597#msg8273597 date=1304757871]They don't have a choice in the matter, really. Here is a plot of the GDP growth rate of Italy:
http://www.google.com/publicdata?ds=wb-wdi&met=ny_gdp_mktp_kd_zg&idim=country:ITA&dl=en&hl=en&q=gdp+growth+rate+of+italy

Here is one of Nigeria:
http://www.google.com/publicdata?ds=wb-wdi&met=ny_gdp_mktp_kd_zg&idim=country:NGA&dl=en&hl=en&q=gdp+growth+rate+of+nigeria[/quote]The differences between those two graphs actually got me ROFL, Italy looks sad

Let's not get carried away though, they still have these: http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/global500/2010/countries/Italy.html

Eventually, we will catch up. Might be 500 years from now. . . but that is fine by me 

If by modernizing now I can speed up the process for my descendants and reduce it from 500 years to 200, I'll definitely go ahead and do whatever it takes.

The faith we have in our ability to persevere and adapt is legendary.

I agree though, we should not slow down and sulk because we lost some ground, that will only keep us further behind. Anyway, I wish us luck, strength and Godspeed or Orisaspeed. .

Sometimes, you have to respect Seun's tremendous ability to push Deep-Shyyte to the top of his Nairaland Forum when better topics are drowning below.

Gotta love hard-core capitalism

PhysicsMHD:
I disagree. The Arabs didn't create Greek science, but they definitely improved upon it and appreciated it.

The Arabs are not ruling the world either.

And because Al-Farabi, Avicenna, Alhazen and co were able to preserve, use or even expand the theories of Ptolemy and Euclid does not mean the Arab world has that deep connection to the foundation of those philosophies.

I will concede that much of these are just wonderings of mine and of course many others who are interested in the question of why we lag behind. It is not hard science and several factors may be responsible apart from the ones I offered in my earlier post.

Read the excerpt below;

"In Islamic culture, 'philosophy' (in the sense of a continuation Greek philosophy) was somewhat suspect. It never gained a foothold in publically supported educational institutions, it was never well connected with any profession (in contrast with western Europe after the 12th century, where philosophy was the main subject in Arts faculties of the universities). The subject best established in medieval Islamic education was the study of the law (i.e. of the religious law). The extracts from Averroes in the Readings are from The Decisive Treatise Determining the Nature of the Connection between Religion and Philosophy, in which Averroes tries to show (with a readership of lawyers primarily in mind) that philosophy is a legitmate study for Muslims - indeed, that it is the highest form of religion. Like Alfarabi, and like Plato, Averroes envisages a state in which philosophers are the elite. The extracts are from the translation by G.F. Hourani in A. Hyman and J.J. Walsh, Philosophy in the Middle Ages (B721.P48), p. 287 ff)"

Now, I'm not sure how credible the authors are, but the conclusions there supports the assertion that; maybe a deeper cultural connection to the dominant Philosophy (at least the ones driving the knowledge of the age we live in) is necessary for a greater exploitation of the benefits of western science and a deeper appreciation for it's value beyond "paper certificate" bragging  rights. I believe that the closer your are to it culturally and emotionally, the better you will fare and the farther it will drive you


So in essence, despite the exploits of those great Arab Scholars, IMO, their larger society and culture did not really embrace the foundations of those thoughts and sometimes were very hostile towards it. Millions are still hostile.

The Western Europeans didn't create Greek science or Islamic science, but they improved upon it and appreciated it to the point that we casually assume that they are its founders or that they have some sort of closer relationship than others to ideas and truths that would always exist regardless of whether they (the Western Europeans) ever existed.

IMO, Comparing western Europeans and the Greeks is like comparing Yorubas and Igbos or shall I say; Bantus and their different ethnic mix from South Africa to Guinea. The Culture and language might have some differences but they are still very much related.

See, I know gravity existed regardless of who "discovered" it, but it helps if it is explained in your own cultural context and language.

In mathematics, for example, can somebody who wants to be a mathematician fail to have a deep appreciation and connection to math simply because it's garbed in the language of a different culture? I can't see that happening. The knowledge in that field is too universal.

Yes, like sex, adding and subtracting are universal skills(hopefully, lol) but culture and beliefs can influence their usage.

And I will also argue that I would've have done better in Calculus if it was taught in Yoruba, that is if I'm not too right brained or suffering from Dyscalculia 

And nobody has a monopoly on creating philosophy or ideology, either. There's nothing stopping significant African (Nigerian, specifically) philosophers/ideologues/social theorists from emerging.

Yes no one has the monopoly on creating ideas, but one can acquire the advantage to run competitive or different ideologies out of the marketplace of ideas.

Some of the real questions I'm struggling with are hidden somewhere in your statement.

What is stopping us?

How are our cultural beliefs affecting our philosophy and our ability to question and research deeply?

Are there Historical push-backs and prejudices against our philosophical views and ideas?

Does language play a role in our inability to make better use of the western ideas?

Ibn Abi Usaibi, Avicenna, Al Farabi and other ancient Arab scholars and philosophers translated Plato, Aristotle and other Greek thoughts and science into Arabic. I know Europeans had to re-translate the Arabic works and even the names! of these Arab Scholars and preservers of Greek philosophy into Latin based names just to feel more comfortable with them. Language is the vehicle of culture, it makes that "emotional" connection stronger.

The other point against your argument is, why were the Chinese, Japanese, the Ashkenazi Jews, and some other groups able to do so well in these areas, despite the fact that they did not originally have a cultural or emotional connection to the foundations of Western science and education?

Dunno, BUT;

The Chinese speak Chinese.

The Japanese speak Japanese.

The Ashkenazi Jews "own" the world. We worship their god(s) remember?

The prevalent western focused world-view is chiefly a view through the moral and philosophical lenses of the Judeo-Christian or Abrahamic world, from literarure to philosophy to war conquests and politics. We can also argue same for the Hebrew and Greek philosophical background/foundations of much of present day western thought, it must count for something that they have that connection, I think it helps the Ashkenazi Jews a lot.

At least they got one over my smart grandfather and his Orisa Religion. He didn't see it coming  

Maybe we will get there, maybe we will fully assimilate, not sure, but I think we have a huge disadvantage due to culture, language and a different philosophical world-view from the currently dominant ones.

We just need to adapt to the race and global competition. Like they said, it's like we're being left behind while the world moves past us.

Yes, we need to try harder at adapting and assimilating. I guess we are still evolving.

The world is probably still very young bro, I bet there is still a lot to discover, we might have to wait around a few more millennias to know where the pendulum will swing, maybe we will zoom ahead eventually 

Our competitors ain't silly though. I don't bet on them slowing down to give us a chance to catch up and blend in.



And this is just to scare ekt-bear in-case he stumbles on my post ->: We might need to "re-invent the wheel" or at least soup it up to our taste 

Katsumoto:
Kilode, I hope your gum chewing manager has plans to take his own ball to Wembly cos only the manure goalie will be touching the official UEFA ball.  

Everybody hatin'

Even my Liver-cut supporters are now Barca groupies?  

[quote author=isale_gan2 link=topic=590933.msg8272786#msg8272786 date=1304720179]   Kilode's MIA, probably having heart palpitations, wondering how badly Barca/Messi will learn ManU about the game of football.  Egbon is off to appease the gods, I presume.  [/quote]HAHA I feel sorry for Barca, I'm sure they did not want this match-up, I'm glad for all Footie lovers, May 28th will be a great day.

naijababe:
All the etutu and ebo can't prevent the ijiya manure will get. . .  . . . .   .

A boru boye o, The gods ain't crazy 

PhysicsMHD:
.

I think it has something to do with the title obsessed culture of Nigeria and that title loving mentality that could rub off on youth. If you feel like a big man after you get  your graduate degree and feel like you've "made it," are you really going to strive as hard in science or technology to outshine everybody? I think Nigerian culture (s) may in some sense hinder Nigerians from trying to develop a very high level of competitiveness, like Europeans, Asians, Americans, etc.

(edited: lot of mistakes)

I kinda think it's about culture too, but in a different way. I think our lack of that deep cultural and emotional connection to the Ideological/Philosophical foundations of "Western" science and much of Western Education is responsible for the lag. Like if you did not create it, you may not appreciate the reason behind it.

I do not have hard facts that I can link you to right now, but I wonder about this a lot; The effect of borrowed languages, our cultural and religious intolerance for Scientific and philosophical skepticism e.t.c

SEFAGO:
Yeah but the problem is also us, we still keep hiring them no matter what.

You are right, we have issues too. . .

SEFAGO:
Another funny fact- they only wanted to go to countries that were more "western"

I don't blame them jare, me sef, I wish everyone around me can speak Yoruba, enjoy Pounded Yam and Efo Elegusi Soup + Correct palm-wine o.

And I also wanna work only in places where all the girls have well shaped curvy bodies with complementary Ikebes

We all love the familiar. . .

SEFAGO:
^ Africans are the one managing the funds though. I get your point though, the buck stops at oyibos table.

its just investments and they are trying to make money.

Look at what oyibo think of us:

http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/africa

 

You read WSO too? lol

It's amazing how clueless some of those preppy kids are, and they want to work in IBs and deal with assets all over the world? 

Anyway, the ignorance helps when your cultural world-view actually controls the world, You should read what Oyinbo expats in Nigeria say about us, I will post a link if I can go through the archives on some other site I saw.

Like Ezeuche rightly said, They learn quickly when they get the gig. The unfortunate thing though is that we don't benefit from their ignorance (yahoo-yahoo boys benefit somewhat) because they control too much "economically" right now.

Nigeria's not Darfur or even pre-revolution Libya, but it's not exactly a place where you can run a large-scale business with a perfectly clean conscience. Just look at Chevron's or Royal Dutch's experience with charges over bribery and unarmed protesters getting shot at by the military.

^^ eeyah, can you imagine the sanctimonious ignorance of that one?

Is there anywhere you can run a large-scale business with a perfectly clean conscience? In a dog-eat-dog capitalist world where we all struggle for scarce economic resources? except he can reboot his conscience every night, That guy needs to apply to the Holy Mt. Athos, GS might break his cute little spirit

^^ I had the same thought when I saw Carlyle, I think Prince Bin Talal own investments in Nigerian assets going back to IBB days so no biggie. I dislike conspiracy theories, I like investments, but I also know history can be very repetitive, very cyclical.

Hopefully we are wiser this time around and won't leave all the "grabbing" and control to foreign capitalists.

Read transcript and watch video via link below, there may be people you know or recognize on that video, it's tragic, I wonder why they did not leave with those that were reportedly evacuated by the FG earlier in the conflict, a man in the video claimed 3 kids were killed at the port just that day. Very tragic!


From PBS May 4 2011

JEFFREY BROWN: And now to the bloody conflict in Libya, where the battle for a key port has gone on for two months.

Today, government forces kept up their shelling of Misrata. At least five people were killed as they waited for the aid ship "Red Star One" to dock. It was the only lifeline for hospital patients in critical condition, as well as 1,000 stranded migrants.

Article:
Alex Thomson of Independent Television News watched the scene unfold.

A warning, some of the images in the story are disturbing.

ALEX THOMSON: It's Monday afternoon at the hospital in Misrata. The U.N. may well have charged NATO with protecting Libya's civilians, but it is easy to find civilians NATO is not protecting.

DEMETRIUS MOGNIA, International Medical Corps: Come. And now you see another one, another one.

ALEX THOMSON: Another blown-up person arrives in Misrata's intensive care unit, ICU, only to find it's shot. It's full to overflowing.

DEMETRIUS MOGNIA: If one injured now came with this bombing, he -- are going to die. Should be moved immediately to let the ship enter in the port to take, to evacuate this person to Benghazi. This is our problem.

ALEX THOMSON: Already patients are dying whilst listed for transfer by boat to Benghazi. They have a list of others desperate to move.

These are people in need? These are people who must be evacuated?

DEMETRIUS MOGNIA: Yes. Yes. And it's far from ICU.

ALEX THOMSON: Four intensive care cases, 33 in all, waiting for that ship.

The problem for those running the rescue vessel is a stark one. To get in and get out of Misrata Port involves congregating around 1,500 people, dock workers, 1,000 migrant workers desperate to escape, 50 or 60 hospital patients and so forth, congregating 1,500 people in a confined space in the middle of a shelling zone for anything up to five or six hours. It is not an easy call.

And this is why the rescue ship lies out of range 12 miles offshore, unable to dock. Colonel Gadhafi says any ship now leaving or entering Misrata is a target. Smoke rises from the almost daily salvos of Grad missiles and shells that hit the port area.

MAN: Incoming.

ALEX THOMSON: So to make a run for it is to be either brave or foolish, or both.

And yet, to our astonishment, the skipper of this Turkish freighter did just that, unladen and at full-throttle between the piers, even as they're hit by incoming shells and mortars. Close in, at the dockside, it is lethal.

MAN: We need to get under here. We need to get out of here.

(Screaming)

ALEX THOMSON: Shelling the port happens daily, two people killed in this attack alone, several more seriously hurt. But consider, too, the reason why this ship is coming in the first place, 1,000 migrant workers still here, still trapped in somebody else's war and desperate to go home. They too are being shelled.

IBRAHIM MOHAMMED, migrant worker: We don't have anything. We are dying here. This bombardment, the smoke is killing us, as now everybody's sick here now, no medicine, no anything. We are dying here. Please, world, if they are hearing me, they should help us.

ALEX THOMSON: And this Nigerian man was shelled in that camp and could indeed be dying. He's scheduled to be moved on the ship to the safety of Benghazi when the ship comes in -- if the ship comes in.

By this morning, the ship's been waiting four days. We went to see the harbormaster and found chaos, the ship not even speaking to this harbormaster's office.

MAN: NATO warship, Misrata port control try to contact you on channel 16. Over.

MAN: OK.

ALEX THOMSON: Finally, people started talking, and a ship began appearing, and steamed straight into port, without contacting the harbormaster.

 

Five-and-a-half days, but they have made it here. The medicine is unloaded at top speed. This is an incoming zone for shells. But the jubilation is short-lived. Two hours after docking, the sound of incoming missiles, and people move to cover.

That was a salvo of 12 Grad missiles. And because of that, quite understandably, it looks like the ship is cutting and running. They have delivered medical goods this morning. They're not waiting to pick people up from the hospital.

But armed rebels screamed at the captain not to go, and he seemed to listen. And suddenly the first ambulances with those ICU patients were at the dockside. The loading systems going well, the last 1,000 migrant workers trapped by the fighting queuing up, embarking, it's very orderly -- until, that is, scores of well-connected Libyans from Misrata turn up, push in, and it all falls apart.

(SHOUTING)

(GUNFIRE)

(SCREAMING)

ALEX THOMSON: A rebel gunman fires his Kalashnikov. At this point, hundreds more migrant workers arrive. They're the people this boat was sent for, and now they can't get on. They have lost control. The captain fears the boat being overloaded and incoming shells.

Without warning they cast off. A ship which came to pick up hundreds of migrant African workers leaves them forlorn, on the key side, in the shelling zone. And only now we learn that several were indeed killed in that salvo an hour or so before.

MAN: They killed three children, one old woman, plus her husband, five this morning maybe one hour ago.

ALEX THOMSON: This woman distraught, her husband still on the key side. And down below, one of the patients is dying. They have to re-dock. Five days to get into this port, five hours to get out of it and still the humanitarian mission in this town is not complete.

JEFFREY BROWN: The ship did manage to pick up 800 people but had hoped to take away as many as 1,000. Its destination is Benghazi in the east, which is held by the rebels.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/world/jan-june11/libya_05-04.html

". . .for, in regard to complexion, ideas of beauty are wholly relative. I remember while in Africa to have seen three negro children, who were tawny, and another quite white, who were universally regarded by myself, and the natives in general, as far as related to their complexions, as deformed."   - Olaudah Equiano   

." .When I recovered a little I found some black people about me, who I believed were some of those who brought me on board, and had been receiving their pay; they talked to me in order to cheer me, but all in vain. I asked them if we were not to be eaten by those white men with horrible looks, red faces, and loose hair" - Olaudah Equiano ( Narrative of the Life of Olaudah Equiano Chpt 2 par. 20 )

^--Even the "noble" Kilode?! HAD that sentiment because his mind was once stuck in a period when dark skin was the real ish and an overly-light skin tone was considered sickly, weak and unattractive.

Kilode?! is now liberated (hopefully)

Hopefully Caucasians will break free one day, Not sure about white-struck Black Africans, doubtful those Indian-Mongolians ever will. Willing/unwilling victims are the hardest to save.

"Does not slavery( racism, colorism and shadims?) itself depress the mind, and extinguish all its fire and every noble sentiment"? -Olaudah

^-- It sure does, sad for the perpetrators, more horrible for the victims and their descendants.

[quote author=EzeUche_ link=topic=659459.msg8254116#msg8254116 date=1304457210]Ghanaian women love us! 

https://blog.mtviggy.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/Yvonne-Nelson.jpg[/quote]Naija Boi's Property^TM

Aigbofa:
I know, I know! But what the hell was he doing in a mansion in the middle of a major town!

Good question

Dude would have been safer hiding in Las Vegas. Apparently, Ho's protect their clients better than Pakistanis.

Hopefully this will now qualify Obama for American citizenship.

Empty threat

Papilolo show

Comedic press release

Efulefu anger

"It is part of their destiny. I was also attacked as a corps member in Ibadan in 1979. They were attacked on the services of  INEC.”

SMH

^Na true?

HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO KATSUMOTO!

Make una play music now. haba

Oh, I heard Oga Katz no like Owambe parties

I saw some data on this Document, scroll to page 8 then look at page 43, they have some numbers that might help you. It seems a bit dated though.
http://www.lamata-ng.com/Nigeria%20LUTP%20PAD.pdf

cheikh:
Kilode?!
@Kilode?! ^^^

The bolded above I agree so much with, that I felt a little emotional and very sad because some of our country men and women may have stifled a genuine revolt not only in the North but in the rest of the country by labelling them "extremists" or even worse criminals. I believe that Change in Nigeria probably will involve some Pain or dire Price someday, if GEJ and PDP does not effect identifiable progressive changes.

I think the youths of the North are at the vanguard of what the future may hold for the so called ruling elite in Nigeria. I wonder whether the Southern Nigerian youths will be able to replicate similar actions against 'looters' in their midst? [/b]Maybe the tolerance for 'looters' in the South is insidious and "democratic[b]".

Perhaps this is an opportunity to build bridges between the North and South, link up politically and develop alternative systems of communication for next time.

I think the South may be colluding inadvertently in holding our people in the North back from effecting a serious revolution as evidenced by numerous revolts- Maitatsine, Boko haram etc. They may be labelled 'religious' sects etc but they are in the vanguard of some 'change'. There's none in the South of similar political dynamism. Mend is now fighting for the Centre or rather is a member of the new "democratic" Centre. I sincerely worry about some of our politics.

You know, a part of me wants to blame the opposition for being too shortsighted, but at the same time I realize how much distrust and fear we've managed to build up in Nigeria over the decades.

I agree with your point about working on communicating shared ideas across our different communities for next time. GEJ and his team won the propaganda war over Buhari. Even supporters like myself could not convince some friends and relatives, it was mad difficult, people just stuck to the ethnic and religious sentiments.

Hopefully the more progressive politicians across the Country(NORTH and SOUTH) will try again or at least keep the pressure on.

I also hope the CPC/Buhari movement will refuse to cower, they need to fine-tune their ideology and work to build alliances with progressive elements across the South.

It will also be very interesting to watch what MEND will do in the next 2 years; still pushing federalism and resource control? or just satisfied with GEJ in control. . .

I'm not sure we can avoid a popular uprising if we fail to fix things through politics.

I don't know about income taxes outside Lagos, I can't recollect anyone talking About those. But they collect some property taxes in Nigeria, I think they are one time payments though, I can't remember anyone paying annual taxes on their property.

I believe we give all VAT to the FG. The FG share those out based on a formula, it is necessary to generate local taxes that will not go to the center at the end of the month, I know most Local Governments do that at the informal level, markets, car parks, bus stops e.t.c but they seem like unregulated tout infested collection rackets to me.

Few of these things are systemized, and that seems to be the big issue. Another is competency, frankly we have a poorly trained, grossly incompetent civil service across the board. I've been there, I've seen it, I have relatives there, we have a lot of work to do.

Katsumoto:
Something else that needs to be tackled is revenue. The people are always complaining about the poor state of infrastructure, education, etc but are usually unwilling to pay for it. Most people have two or three sources of income but pay very little on their primary source (salary). Lagos is tackling this issue a bit but it must do more if it is going to be able to fund the lofty projects that are necessary for a place of its status.

The state governments must do the following
1. Raise the rate of tax for everyone and higher tax for high earners
2. Reduce the size of the underground economy. The underground economy is as large as 65-80% in most African societies. It is 45% in Greece
3. Introduce an entertainment tax. If people are going to spend huge amounts of money on frivolous things and parties, then they must pay a tax on goods and services associated with throwing huge parties and weddings.

I quite agree, sometimes taxes serve a more symbolic purpose beyond revenue generation, revenue is key though, but it will also bring the population closer to their government and force them to demand greater accountability.

But I wonder how we will administer income taxes for example when we have such poor databases, the informal sector is probably the largest one in the SW volume-wise, and we have little or no access to those right now, except they want to start with civil servant salaries.

Also, sales taxes might be easier to implement in the near term, it will be easier to get companies and service providers on board, much quickly than getting individual earners.