₦airaland Forum

biina:
Thanks, as that puts your earlier post in a clearer perspective. One clarification needed though is that do you feel the entire mosaic law was then abolished or just the law on tithing?

Irrespective, I disagree with your interpretation of Hebrews  7:5-20 as such an interpretation would be in conflict with Matt 5:17-48, where Jesus stated that he did not come to abolish the law (but to fulfill them), and goes on to expound on the notion behind several of the mosaic laws.

The passage quoted from Hebrews (the discussion starts from chapter 6), addresses the issue of salvation through Christ (Melchizedek Priesthood) vs through sacrifice (Levitical priest hood). The passage explains the superiority of the Melchizedek to the Levitical priesthood, partly by showing that even the Levites, through Abraham, paid tithes to the former. The perfection sought is salvation and thus under the Levitical priesthood it was attained by sacrifices. This was the 'law' found weak (as it failed to draw people unto God) and thus the need for Jesus to die for our sins hereby setting a new law. He later likened Christ to Melchizedek to show the superiority of salvation through Christ.

I do agree with you on giving out of one's heart and not under compulsion. However that would be in reference to how much one should give, and not if you should give or not.

Even though it is now very obvious form thhe numerous postings on this thread that tithing is not required of christians and that pro tithers have a very weak case for their utterances and allusions. I would just like to ask one question: IS THERE ANY CHRISTIAN REQUIREMENT IN THE NEW TESTAMENT(which chrisitanity is based on) FOR BELIEVERS TO TITHE or put this way; IS THERE ANY BASIS FOR TITHING FROM THE TEACHINGS OF jESUS OR ANY OF THE APOSTLES WHO ESTABLISHED CHRISTIANITY IS THERE ANY BIBLICAL RECORD OF THE EARLY CHRISTIANS TITHING

@Idinrete& pastor AIO
So what are the main doctrines and practises of the IFA religion and why in your own opinion as it been presented to us in mordern times as fetish and evil?

realpastor:
kunle,pls come out straight.

What i am trying to say is that there is a lot of evidence that the writings and books that make up the bible are not undiluted as the church would like us to believe, even though the bible contains the word of God, the hand of man is clearly visible in several writings in the bible and Jeremiah 8:8-10 confirms that even as far back as the old testament prophets and priests were already manipulating the scriptures. And that is why you find a lot of seeming inconsistences in the bible today. The excuse our pastors then give is that you need the "holy spirit" to understand it. My question is that the bible was written by men(sometimes under the influence of the holy spirit) for the consumption of men. Why then should they need the holy spirit to understand something meant for our consumption? The truth is glaring even though the church would never admit it, but the bible provides the evidence

maddock:
Another thing Pastor Chris also said on issue of miracles, which i want the believers in the house to reflect on soberly ( am not talkin about Atheist like Kunleoshob,paulipopo etal LOL). We do believe in miracles right,as in God can do anything but why do we contest it if that miracle was performed through a Pastor XYZ.

So we are now atheists becos we don't believe in your 419 pastor when would you deluded freaks stop equating this common criminal to God

I am aslo interested in learning about Ifa, i believe there is some wisdom to be learnt from it. @idinrete could you kindly give us a brief write up telling us what is it is all about?

huxley:
I take from this that you amke God the ultimate designer of the universe? But that, unfortunately, only begs the question, "Who designed God?". Is there some other superior God who made your own god? If you know the answer for who made your god, then you will know how this universe came about.

I do appreciate and understand your submissions above, but the fact that some things were not revealed to man and alot of things are beyond human comprehesion does not take away the fact that there is obviously a creator. Even science that you so much beileve in admits that science is yet to understand .001% of what is in Nature. Surely these advanced complex and intelligently desgined things cannot be an accident(s) of nature

It still beats my imagination how so many munguns are still falling for chris oyakhilome's scams, they are soooo fake that even a blind man can see through them, but then again some people are brainless

toneyb:
It's always good to tell sweet lies for Jesus right?

@OLAADEGBU
You see how you embarass your self and other faithfuls by resorting to lies to defend your beliefs and overzealouness when it is quite evident that you like most evengelicals have little or no understanding of the bible and the christian faith. You argue on things you don't know or have knowledge of instead of you to be meek and humble and learn in silence. If you really understood the gospel of christ you would realize how beautiful it is and you would not have to resort to lies to defend it, cos there is NO contoversy in the true gospel of christ and it cannot be controverted by even the most zealous atheist.

Where is Huxley

OLAADEGBU:
@KunleOshob,

I leave this scripture with you which Peter confirmed as one of the Scriptures that God used Paul to write.  Meditate on them to be sure that you don't fall into the category Peter was addressing.

"And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction".

- 2 Peter 3:15-16

I have no doubt in my mind that apostle Paul and peter were inspired by God, however that does not suffice to say that every word of all the 66 books or is it 80 books of the bible were inspired by God. apart from the obvious contradictions you would come across in some books of the bible(you would know this if you actually study your bible properly) The passage i quoted earlier in jeremiah states clearly that the priests/prophets/scribes of old twisted the word and laws of God(scriptures) what more evidence do you need   even Jesus christ accused prophets that came before him as being dishonest in John 10:8 ; All who came before me were thieves and robbers. But the true sheep did not listen to them.


Clearly we don't have any evidence that the bible is 100% the word of God we only have the testimony of the RCC that compiled it (even though you detest the RCC so much) Many pastors claim the bible is undiluted becos that is were they get their authority from and they want want to start creating doubts in the minds of people, but if you are a true christian and the spirit is in you you would realize that you don't even need written words to know God.

2 Corinthians 3:3:
3 Clearly, you are a letter from Christ showing the result of our ministry among you. This “letter” is written not with pen and ink, but with the Spirit of the living God. It is carved not on tablets of stone, but on human hearts.
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2 Corinthians 3:6:
6 He has enabled us to be ministers of his new covenant. This is a covenant not of written laws, but of the Spirit. The old written covenant ends in death; but under the new covenant, the Spirit gives life.

@ALL
kindly address the following verses:

Deuteronomy 14:26:
26 When you arrive, you may use the money to buy any kind of food you want—cattle, sheep, goats, wine, or other alcoholic drink. Then feast there in the presence of the Lord your God and celebrate with your household.

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Passage Luke 7:33-34:

  33 For John the Baptist didn’t spend his time eating bread or drinking wine, and you say, ‘He’s possessed by a demon.’ 34 The Son of Man, on the other hand, feasts and drinks, and you say, [b]‘He’s a glutton and a drunkard, [/b]and a friend of tax collectors and other sinners!’

Footnotes:

Luke 7:34 “Son of Man” is a title Jesus used for himself.

(Evidently our Lord Jesus christ himself was a social drinker   )
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Passage 1 Timothy 5:23:

  23 Don’t drink only water. You ought to [b]drink a little wine [/b]for the sake of your stomach because you are sick so often.

My christian brethen you should learn not to preach your opinions as the word of God, ( Matthew 15:9:
9 Their worship is a farce,
     for they teach [b]man-made ideas [/b]as commands from God.’) the bible never said we should not drink, it only encouraged us to drink in moderation.

@OLAADEGBU
your penchant to quote quote the bible out of context is lengendary and your poor understanding of the bible is appalling, both so-called biblical basis for your allusions are not even relevant to the topic. When paul used the term "all scripture" in the book of timothy, the bible did not even exist and it would not be compiled until at least 250 years after paul mmade that statement so he definitely could not have been refering to the bible as we know it today. The passage in 2 peter you mis-quoted again is even farther from the truth than the timothy example, here peter is testifying that he heard the voice of God when he proclaimed jesus to be his son, how does that relate to writing the bible  and what he said is from God is "prophecy in scripture" (prophecy being the key word)not all the scriptures themselves and as we already know srcipture is not necessarily what is in the bible as the bible did not exist then. Thirdly it is really very dishonest of you to claim that the bible was compiled by the early church and not the RCC just becos of your bias against the church. Even the most ignorant christians know that the bible was compiled by the RCC and all other churches including whatever church you attand hvae their origins in the RCC so stop spreading ignorance. I would post the passages you quoted below so people can see how you tried to quote the bible out of context to confuse them. (this behaviour is very common amongst pentecostals)

2 Timothy 3:16-17:
16 All Scripture is inspired by God and is useful to teach us what is true and to make us realize what is wrong in our lives. It corrects us when we are wrong and teaches us to do what is right. 17 God uses it to prepare and equip his people to do every good work.

2 Peter 1:18-21:
18 We ourselves heard that voice from heaven when we were with him on the holy mountain.
   19 Because of that experience, we have even greater confidence in the message proclaimed by the prophets. You must pay close attention to what they wrote, for their words are like a lamp shining in a dark place—until the Day dawns, and Christ the Morning Star shines[a] in your hearts. 20 Above all, you must realize that no[b] prophecy in Scripture [/b]ever came from the prophet’s own understanding,[b] 21 or from human initiative. No, those prophets were moved by the Holy Spirit, and they spoke from God.


PS: I would have tought you would learn a thing or two from Jeremiah 8:8 but alas

OLAADEGBU:
This can be best explained by Brian Edwards, in his book Nothing But the Truth (Darlington, UK: Evangelical Press, 2006). p.116-143.


"The Holy Spirit moved men to write. He allowed them to use their own style, culture, gifts and character, to use the results of their own study and research, to write of their own experiences and to express what was in their mind. At the same time, the Holy Spirit did not allow error to influence their writings; He overruled in the expression of thought and in the choice of words. Thus they recorded accurately all that God wanted them to say and exactly how He wanted them to say it, in their own character, style and language."

What is the biblical basis for these allusions

Jeremiah 8:8-10:

8 “‘How can you say, “We are wise because we have the word of the Lord,”
when your teachers have twisted it by writing lies?
9 These wise teachers will fall
into the trap of their own foolishness,
for they have rejected the word of the Lord.
Are they so wise after all?
10 I will give their wives to others
and their farms to strangers.
From the least to the greatest,
t[b]heir lives are ruled by greed.
Yes, even my prophets and priests are like that.
They are all frauds.
[/b]

Even the bible acknowledges that the scriptures have been twisted by the scribes that wrote it. The good news version of the bible even states this more clearly

Jeremiah 8:8-10 :
How can you say you are wise and that you know my laws? Look the laws have been changed by dishonest scribes. 9 Your wise men are put to shame; they are confused and trapped. They have rejected my words ; what wisdom do they have now? 10 So i will give their fields to new owners and their wives to other men. Everyone, great and small tries to make money dishonestly. Even prophets and priests cheat the people.

mazaje:
[/b]

what are the evidence for a god? and do the evidence agree or support the definations of any of the gods we have out there?

The very existence of complex life forms, Nature and all that is in it point very obvioulsy to a intelligent designer/maker/creator A.K.A GOD

This thread shows a lot of lack of understanding of what the G20 is all about. The G20 is simply a group of the top twenty economies in the world and south africa happens to be one of them. Though they are the only African country there they are not there to represent africa they are there on their own merit. as for the AU issue, AU is not a country so it cannot be invited as G20 is made up of countries and NOT unions.

Mowire:
Kunle! Kunle!! I no warn you?

That does take away the fact that it is highly immoral for any church or pastor to use the church funds to acquire a Jet or indulge in any other excessive luxury at the expense of the children of God and the less priviledge who the money is meant for in the first instance.

@Biina
To answer your question god does NOT require that we pay tithes, however as christians Gods expects us to help the less priviledge amongst us and also to contribute towards the upkeep of his ministry. And whatever we decide togive should not be given under compulsion as tithes is preached. Below is how christians were taught to give by the apostles:

2 Corinthians 9:7:
7 You must each decide in your heart how much to give. And don’t give reluctantly or in response to pressure. “For God loves a person who gives cheerfully.”

@Biina
No matter how you want to argue it the commandment to tithe was done under the mosaic law which is not relevant to christians, tithes is being preached on that basis and it is wrong. The excuse of Abraham and jacob does not suffice cos they did it of there own freewill not based on a commandment and the biblical record of it was one off, not on a regular basis as is being preached today.
That apart christians were specifically told that the commandment of tithing had been anulled and tithing was described as a weak and useless law in hebrews 7 which i would reproduce below and highlight the relevant portions

Hebrews 7:5-20:

5And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:

6But he whose descent is not counted from them received tithes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises.

7And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better.

8And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.

9And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.

10For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.

11If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

12For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
13For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.

14For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

15And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,

16Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.

17For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

18For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.

19For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

20And inasmuch as not without an oath he was made priest:

huxley:
I consider religion one of the unfortunate relics from the infancy of humanity that still impedes human progress, hence my contempt for religion.

Thanx for your prompt response, granted that religion as been used to perpetuate evil by men and used to manipulate and take advantage of other men i can understand your contempt, but the fact that most religions have been abused does to mean that God doesn't exist. Do you beileve that the earth and all that is in it is just a freak of the cosmos, isn't there enough evidence of intelligent design at play with all the harmony we have in Nature that makes our possible existence and survival a reality? As advanced as we humans are we cannot produce ordinary matter talkless of simple life forms yet we know how complicated our make up is. There are a billion and one things we humans cannot do yet they exist in perfect harmony in nature, is it possible it just came out of no where with no intelligence behind it. I know no religions answers all question about our reality or our ontology but that is not enough to say God does not exist. Can you state in clear terms why you hold on to the belief of NO God despite all the evidence? (lets leave religion out of this)

chukwudi44:
kunle the council of nicea did not decide the books of the bible.The books of the bible were decided by the synod of hippo IN 393AD and later reaffirmed by the local council of carthage in 397AD.These meetings were presided over by st Augustine of hippo.

You are not exactly right here the first compilation was done in 325AD it was only ratified in carthage in 397AD.

[/quote]The number of books originally considered for inclusion in the Bible is uncertain. We do know Constantine ordered 50 copies of the Bible to be produced by Eusebius in 325 AD to end any dispute over this, which basically left this important decision to Eusebius alone. This collection set the standard. The first ecclesiastical councils to classify the canonical books were both held in North Africa-at Hippo Regius in 393 and at Carthage in 397. [quote]

@Huxley
This might be a bit personal but i am curious to know your professional and educational back ground. Also what fuels your passion for disparaging belief in God, as different from the practise of any religion. I can understand if you don't beleive in religion but i cannot fathom someone as intelligent as you not believing in the existence of a supreme being cause the evidence is so glaring and is all around us.

@Biina
point noted

emiemi:
Seriously, I share same thot on that. He responds without giving relevant contribution to the issue at hand.

Use your head dear hubreality. God put it there for a reason not for it to be useless.

Pastor chris doesn't allow or encourage his customers idolators members to use their heads else he would run out of business.

biina:
Hmmm interesting topic you have here. Haven't read the entire thread yet (and not sure I will) but a couple of posts do place an uunsual dimension on a few things.

Quick question though: Is it bad to pay your tithes?

If the tither is paying his tithes based on the mosaic law which was quoted in malachi 3, the tither is cutting his or her self away from the grace of Christ(Galatians 5:4). But the more evil issue is that the word of God is being twisted(jeremiah 8:8-10) and manipulated by those who should know better(pastors) to justify it or for the sake of greedy gain and this is extremely BAD

eagerly waiting for the expose

I also feel relieved by this information, as pastor Adeboye is one of the very few pentecostal pastor i have any iota of respect for. I thought he had joined the rest of them. In the light of this new information i would also like to genuinely apologize for any statements i might have made that cast Pastor Adeboye in the negative based on the impression i had that church funds were diverted to buy an unjustifiable and flambouyant item.

Tasma:
Interesting, there are verses in the bible that talk about slave rights, people being stoned to death for one sin or the other. This verses were also supposed to be God's word. Today we would not consider following any such barbaric laws. From your argument the present situation where we don't follow this laws is due to man's rebellion. Things should really be as the bible describes right?

The truth is that men smuggled their own words into the scriptures over the years and that is why you find some of this contradictory things in the bible. Even though most christians are ignorant of this fact and they fanatically defend the bible even when somethings there are contrary to the faith and teachings of our lord Jesus christ. The following passage provides biblical evidence that the scriptures have been distorted by men from the days of old:

Jeremiah 8:8-10:

   8 “‘How can you say, “We are wise because we have the word of the Lord,”
     when your teachers have twisted the scriptures by writing lies?    9 These wise teachers will fall
     into the trap of their own foolishness,
  for they have rejected the word of the Lord.      Are they so wise after all?
  10 I will give their wives to others
     and their farms to strangers.
  From the least to the greatest,
     their lives are ruled by greed.
  Yes, even my prophets and priests are like that.
     They are all frauds.

This is very sad but it is true and it explains a lot of discrepancies found in the bible.

The bible was not written by any body in particuler, it is a collection of 66 books written by various authors over a period of at leat two thousand years. The bible was canonized (compiled) by the catholic church at the council of Nicea in 325AD, the original catholic bible ghad 80 books. The common bible which is widely circulated today as only 66 books this is due to the fact that martin luther (protestant leader) felt the apocrypha books(14 of them) did not have spiritual value. as at the time the bible was being cannonized there were over 600books claimed to be scripture being used by christians for inspiration, many of them were fake and they contradicted each other. The cannonization of accepted books was aimed at stopping this confusion in the church at that time.

OLAADEGBU:
These are signs of the last days, the perilous time the Apostles spoke about, such as the one below.

"But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves. Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core. These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots; Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever."

- Jude 1:10-13

Jude was actually warning christian faithfuls about the antics of false teachers/preachers (many of whom abound today as pastors). You should learn to quote the bible in it's proper context.

biina:
I didn't say all Christians or church workers should not work. Paul was setting an example to a young flock.

Questions you should ponder are
- why the levites didn't get a share of the inheritance and only homes to live in
- why priests and prophets in the bible weren't mentioned to have jobs.
- why Jesus asked the disciples to abandon their jobs.
- why john the baptist didn't have a job
- why paul often gave thanks to people that ministered to his needs
- Jesus who shunned violence at other times, threw out people that were trading in the temple

Well our pastors today hardly follow paul's example even though it is ok for them to depend on the church for support it is NOT compulsary and if it is done it should be basic support to cover food and shelter, the the lavacious lifestyle our pentecostal preachers are living today. That apart the examples of levites, priests and prophets of the old testament you gave does not suffice, they were under the old convenant(practising a different religion) whilst we are under the new seperate rules apply to us. Also Abraham was a prophet in the old testament and he was also avery wealthy trader hence he had a business. The examples we ought to follow are the examples left to us by the apostles and their teachings and practises. On the issue of Jesus and his disciples, you cannot compare the ministry of Jesus to that of any pastor leaing or dead. It is biblical for the congregation to support the preachers but it is not neccessarily compulsary. Nothing stops preachers from working to support themselves like Paul did.

biina:
I dont think pastors or the church should be involved in any form of business.

On the contrary the bible suggests that preachers and pastors should work so that they don't become a burden to their members like most of our pastors today are. Below are excerpts from paul's second letter to the church at thessalonians:

2 Thessalonians 3:6-10:
6 And now, dear brothers and sisters, we give you this command in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ: Stay away from all believers who live idle lives and don’t follow the tradition they received from us. 7 For you know that you ought to imitate us. We were not idle when we were with you. 8 We never accepted food from anyone without paying for it. We worked hard day and night so we would not be a burden to any of you. 9 We certainly had the right to ask you to feed us, but we wanted to give you an example to follow. 10 Even while we were with you, we gave you this command: “Those unwilling to work will not get to eat.”

@paulipopo
long time, nice to read your post again.
I would be closely monitoring and supporting this thread

@hubreality&pepeye