₦airaland Forum

Joagbaje:
@ KunleOshob
You have resurrected again, I thought you have been banned! for all your numerous agbero fighting!. Anyway your contribution is too long to read, if you can give straight answers . and biblical references.

Banned ke sorry to dissapoint you i can't be banned i suggest you read the posts if you really want to know about the two witnesses, you might even be able to come up with an interesting sermon out of it on sunday [that is if you are not showing recorded sermons of pastor chris in your church then] The two witnesses might show up much sooner than you expect, you don'y want to be caught napping do you?

viaro:
Please, could you show us your source for that statement - that tithing started in Mesopotamia?

Could you show us where the Bible teaches your probability on that statement?

I won't bother answering these question as i remember vividly well that we already discussed it thouroughly when you were still using your pilgrim.1 I.D and you agreed with me from scriptures that Abraham the first recorded tither in the bible is from mesopotamia. [the land of your in babylonia] Any one hat needs more info on the true origin of tithes hould just do a google search on "babylonian tithe". Kindly note that the babylonian civilization predates the jewish civilization and infact the Progenitor of the Jews Abraham was actually from babylonia

Hebrew is a Semitic language, related to Akkadian, the lingua franca of that time. An Akkadian noun that Abraham was most likely familiar with given his Babylonian background was esretu, meaning "one-tenth". By the time of Abraham, this phrase was used to refer to the "one-tenth tax," or "tithe". Listed below are some specific instances of the Mesopotamian tithe, taken from The Assyrian Dictionary of the Oriental Institute of the University of Chicago, Vol. 4 "E":

source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tithe#The_Esretu_.E2.80.94_the_standard_Babylonian_one-tenth_tax

lordbayor:
Am surprise that some folks still argue about tithing, and to the person who posted and to all those who have been making comment i have somethings to ask

First who said we should pay Tithe (is it GOD or PASTORS)

Pastors asked christians to be tithing, this should not be confused with God's commandment to the children of Israel under the levitical priesthood to tithe a tenth of the produce of the land [not money] and eat out of the tithes with the poor, needy and levites. [deut 14:22-29]

What is tithe (Is it part of your earnings or one tenth of you earnings)

Bibical tithes is a tithe of the produce of one's land or every tenth animal that passes under the rod. It had absolutely nothing to do with other income the Israelites were earning then contrary to the twisted version preached in churches today.

When did tithing started

Tithing started in mesopotamia {mordern day Iraq} were abraham was from. It was a part of their traditions and customs and that was probably why he gave a tithe of his war loot to the King of Salem

What happen when you give your tithe and what happens when you don't

You loose a tenth of your income and your pastor smiles to the bank  

who gives tithe

People that have been deceived into believing that tithing is a part of the christian faith rather than a twisted version of an obsolete jewish practise that as been outlawed with the anullment of the Jewish laws.

i don't have anything to say now anybody who want to say anything can ask because am sure the person who posted this topic have to check himself very well and remember "The Spiritual controls the Physical because the Manifestation of the Spiritual are been witness in the Physical

[i]The word of God is there to see so before you say anything to me make sure you are been inspired from the inside by the Holy spirit

Well you obviously did not have much to say probably due to your shallow knowledge of the tithing concept and the scam derived from it.

viaro:
Hello KunleOshob,

If I am ignorant, it is all well - so I could learn what I don't know by seeking knowledge from experienced teachers of God's Word. That is what I did when anti-tithers started arguing that Hebrews 7:18 "abolishes" tithe. If that were so, I wanted to see the theological basis that sustains that argument, and I found none. There could possibly be some, but honest to God, the only source that came to hand in my search theologically arguing such was a treatise from the Quackers, which was consequently soundly refutted. Yet, the overwhelming theological scholarship across all evangelical quarters that I'm aware of, INCLUDING MAJOR ANTI-TITHING THEOLOGIANS, all agree that Hebrews 7:18 was not abolishing tithes but rather something else.

This 'something else' is what I have excerpted and further discussed in posts #242, particularly #243, and #244.

I have sought to approach this subject as I have often tended to do - and that is, follow the basic principle of Biblical exegesis and not violate that by giving a private interpretation to any verse of the Bible (2 Peter 1:20 - "no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation".

If you carefully go through the posts where I discussed this very issue (unless you want me to repost them here), then I reckon you will find your answers there. Cheers.

I have read the posts you referred me to and not one single one of them answers my question. All i saw was long vain and meaningless attempts to say that heb 7:18 doesn't anull tithing when it clearly does. My question remains can you in[b] one simple sentence [/b] state which commandment was anulled in verse 18 considering the fact that the only commandement previously mentioned in that passage was the commandment to tithe inverse 5 from the KJV

adeclem:
According to pastor joe Agbaje:
[If I were you, I will pay my tithe first, and expect a bigger miracle. Patapata make part payment of my rent .]

I understand the rules of God surrounding paying ones tithe., but carefully look at this man's predicament. we all would agree that the present

Well you have to understand the Pastor joe agbaje is a tithe benefitting pastor as such he cannot give an objective opinion here. All his instincts would be directing him to protect this source of filthy lucre and up hold it as sacrosant and the unnegotiable thing to do even though most off us now know that the whole tithing doctrine is a scam that no true christian is mandated to pay in the first instance.

@viaro
I would like to humour your ignorance a bit here, can you tell us which comandment was anulled in Heb7:18 considering the only mention of commandent in the passage prior to that was the "commandement to tithe" earlier mentioned in verse 5 of the passage in the KJV.

Enigma:
Well said. As I have said before, these matters are really very simple.

Of course no one is debating or arguing that Hebrews 7 says that the priesthood of Christ is superior to and replaces the Levitical priesthood. As a result of that superiority and replacement, the Levitical priesthood was abolished; when the Levitical priesthood was abolished, the law was abolished; when the law was abolished, tithing which was part of the law was abolished. Pretty straightforward, really.

It really is very simple, but considering the fact that a good number of pastors owe their osteneous and lavish lifestyle to this scam they would always twist scripture to ensure that their source of filthy lucre is not encumbered.

olowolekan:
Well what esle can I say if people have made up their mind to remain in darkness.You read about tithe in the Holy Bible and rejoice not in this holy word but reject it.Anyone who does not tithe is a thief and is robbing God.Jesus,our redeemer never condemed it but coroborated.Who abolished it?It is your heart which loves darkness more than ligth.
[b]I remembered what a christian experienced some years ago.She stopped tithing for some months and God closed her business(Nobody patronised her goods and her business was on the verge of collapsing).She went to the Lord in prayer and God told her that she is a thief:that so so date you sold this and this you didnt pay your tithe.She owned up and asked for pardon and promised to restitute.She did any everything came to normalcy.[/b]We are serving a living God not graven image,carved wood or an idol but Lord God Almighty.
Tithing is not optional but compusory.May the bless you as you read.Amen

The above highlighted is the type of testimony greed false preachers invent to intimidate their members into the un-scriptural parting with 10% 0f their income in the name of tithes to them. Mr Olowolekan, are you are pastor or do you partake of this filthy lucre in any way? Are you aware of how the bible explains and defines the way tithing should be done? If you are not kindly read deuteronomy 14:22-29 and reflect how it compareswith the false version you guys are preaching today.

[size=16pt]The Witnesses
Part 3[/size]

Who Else Will the Witnesses Alienate?
     Take your pick of any of the institutions controlling out lives.

♦  Academia focuses on creating good corporate employees, which are expected to be good consumers and, for good measure, teach concepts which preclude the existence of God.

♦  Science not only thinks it is society's alternative to God, it is accepted that way. Every aspect of scientific research, from the origin of life to prolonging and altering life, reeks of a godless mindset. The projects in place, and those, planned for the future to colonize and mine space, takes the public funds away from solving problems on the planet and, by default, gives false hope based on theories, while ignoring those real planetary problems based on fact. The majority of scientists are engaged in either the chemical industry or military projects; one destroys the environment and harms it inhabitants slowly, the other destroys the environment and harms its inhabitants quickly.

♦  The military is directly threatened by a prophecy repeated three times in the Revelation that the witnesses will certainly emphasize. "And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father." (Rev. 2:27) "And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne." (Rev. 12:5) "And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God."(Rev. 19:15) How will the massive military-industrial complex, now possessing great power and reaping indecent profits from those they "protect", react to the prospect of surrendering that control to an off-world force? Would this not also apply to further millions of law enforcement officers, as well as the intelligence agencies, think tanks, and myriad industries supporting our obsession with war?

♦  Politics, which includes the politicians themselves, the lobby industry, the peripheral business interests focused on the political concept, and the millions of people facilitating the political process are under the cloud of predicted obsolescence from the above cited prophecies.

♦  The appearance of the two witnesses will garner all the media’s attention and it will no doubt be a windfall for them. No doubt there will be 24 hour coverage of their every move and that this coverage will only be interrupted by commercials. It is those commercials that support the mainstream media and it is corporations that not only pay for that advertising, but corporations also own the outlets that air the news. The last part of this equation is that the government is under the thumb of the corporations, the government champions the corporate mindset, and the government makes every effort to control the spin of any news coming from those corporate owned media sources. Is there any doubt that the witnesses will not only denounce the media, but predict the complete replacement of the entire industry with a media dedicated to the cause of the new government of God and for the good, not the money, of the people?

♦  intimacy, violence, bloodletting, idol worship, weapons, drugs, intrigue, crime, war, hate, perversion, greed, corruption, conspiracy, wealth, stupidity, and degradation of people are the core values of almost every aspect of what is now passed off as entertainment. The witnesses are not only direct representatives of God, but the values of God. Reread the list above and consider that this industry must certainly receive a major share of the attention of the witnesses.

      These are just some of the major social institutions that will lose everything if the predictions from the witnesses about a complete takeover of the world by the Christ come to pass. The government, the military, the corporations, the church, the military, academia, the scientific community, every other social institution, and most of the world's population will perceive these two witnesses as the ultimate threat to the entirety of humanity and especially the lifestyles of the more influent. This concept of a top-down, authoritarian, and physically-enforced rule in the hands of one being, and not even a human being, will be completely unacceptable to those institutions and the world's population as a whole.
      Most of those reading this very critical review of the state of our world will reject it. Were it not for this reality, the world would never arrive at the threshold of annihilation the Bible predicts, the two witnesses would not be attacked, eventually killed, and have their deaths celebrated worldwide. A handful of the more liberal media sources are recognizing a few of the conditions outlined in this writing, but none will be able to accept the ultimate takeover of the world by any force from the outside. In general, the intolerance of the Christian churches has caused any of those who believe alternative realities about the sad state of our world to reject all aspects of Christianity, including Jesus, or any concept of his return to save humanity. So even those who might accept the truth will join the world in the assault on the witnesses; throwing out the baby with the bathwater, so to speak.
      These witnesses will be considered the ultimate global terrorists; not only attacking the world's institutions with words, but attacking the world's people with calamity and doing it with impunity. They will be attacked, but they will have the power to retaliate with great force and will be able to continue their work for 1260 days or 3 1/2 years. It will not be until after they are killed and resurrected after three days that any of the world's population will realize who they are; the messengers of God. They will be condemning the sins of the world and announcing the return of Jesus, just as John the Baptist did to prepare the world for the first coming of the Christ, and who was also killed for his efforts.
      Some wonder about the identity of these witnesses, and there are references to them in other works associated with Bible and the early church, referred to as the lost books. We must ask, however, if specific identification is really necessary? It will be hard to miss them, and no matter whom they are thought to be, their words and the calamities they inflict on the world will make any identification, beyond the world's worst terrorists, irrelevant. Whoever they are, they will be hated, attacked constantly, killed, and their deaths will be a joyous event worldwide. It is not their names that will identify them, but their message and their awesome power.
      In conclusion; it should be noted that this writing is only for the purpose of putting this event in proper perspective. We know the world, through general consensus, will hate the witnesses, no matter who they are, or who sent them. We also know that the true purposes of these prophets will be unknown and irrelevant until after their deaths. It is also a strong consideration that this event will probably add to the rejection of the return of the Christ, and fuel the resistance to his return by the powers of evil predicted in the Bible. "For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk unclothed, and they see his shame. And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon." (Revelation 16:14 - 16).
      This will be the final event before the return of Jesus to his throne on Earth, and only after the presence of the witnesses is an ugly memory. It is hoped that the few who remember these words will recognize these witnesses. The true value of these words will not be generally accepted until after the witnesses are taken, and the Christ is on his throne. It will then not be possible for the world to say it was not warned, as that warning is now in these words for all to see.

[size=16pt]The Witnesses
Part 2[/size]
Will the Witnesses Focus on the Deception of Humanity?
There is a serious problem with the Christian, and thus, the world view about how Satan will actually deceive the world. Various accepted theories about this include numbers of satanic antichrists and false prophets, an individual Antichrist convincing the world he is actually the real Christ, or hoards of evil aliens who are backed by Satan, either attacking or befriending mankind in a deceptive plot to woo church members from the flock. The variations are as numerous as the minds contemplating them. What the Bible says about the deception of mankind is very specific and completely clear; it is the global corporations at the heart of the deception. This is covered in-depth in our research called Humanity Incorporated, but it all hinges on two very obvious biblical references.
♦ The first reference is to, what is commonly known as, the "Mark of the Beast", and is described in the Revelation:
"And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name." (Revelation 13:16- 17)
Although the mark is often characterized as a sign of loyalty / worship for the Antichrist, we see no indication that this is connected to worship in the verses describing it. Instead, we see a direct, and very specific, explanation of the real purpose of the mark. It is for the purpose of buying and selling; what we now use money, checks, money orders, and debit and credit cards for. We now give all those various forms of money to businesses. The mark is also global and indiscriminate in its use; required for all peoples, regardless of social or monetary status, to conduct any form of financial transaction. We can assume that this means all businesses, both small and large. The major corporations are now controlling the vast majority of all forms of business, and this marking system can be seen as primarily benefiting large corporations. Considering the vast majority of small businesses rely on major corporations for the goods they sell or the raw materials for manufacturing, even that sector is directly controlled by those corporations. The first reference directly attributes the most specific prophecy in scripture about the world control of humanity to corporations.
♦ The second reference can be found in a series of little known scriptures found in the 18th chapter of the Revelation describing how big business will react to the collapse of the global financial system. Here are excerpts of those verses specifically naming corporations, with the first being a prophecy that anyone will easily recognize as the current state of affairs between corporations and the world's governments, whether they think it beneficial, or detrimental:
"For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies." (Revelation 18:3)
At first reading, the last part of this verse shows that the merchants getting rich. We know the global corporations are rich, but the beginning of the verse implies they became rich over sexual sin. A closer look at the words wrath and fornication casts a more relevant light on the prophecy. 'Wrath' is taken form the Greek word thumos pronounced thoo-mos', which simply means passion, and the word 'fornication', from the word porneia, pronounced por-ni'-ah, which does mean harlotry, is also commonly used in a figurative sense to mean idolatry.
If the verse is read with these meanings, a more logical concept is revealed; "For all nations have drunk of the wine of the passion of her idolatry". No one will argue that global corporations are passionate about exploiting the marketplace to the maximum. Idolatry is defined by Merriam-Webster as 1: the worship of a physical object as a god, or 2: immoderate attachment or devotion to something. Promoting the obsession for the possession of physical objects is at the core of all marketing strategies. Fostering strong attachments and devotion to things is a basic philosophy of advertising called "branding"; not far in its reality from "cattle branding" in the ranching industry. Placing religious, political, sports and entertainment figures in the "idol" category is a major aspect of the social fabric and, at the time of this writing, one of the most popular shows on television in the U.S. is actually called "American Idol". Creating the desire to possess, and promoting the images to worship, through a blitz of commercials and media attention, is the vehicle used to mentally and emotionally addict the public to their products.
The concept of the "kings of Earth", the governments, participating in the promotion of the corporate control of humanity by conditioning them to a dedication to a life focused on possession and consumption, could not be more obvious. A list of the members of the Administration branch of the most powerful nation on Earth, the United States, reads like a "Who's Who" in the upper echelons of the corporate world. The figures at the core of that Administration are, of course, known supporters of the philosophy that corporations should actually control the country. And, no single event could more attest to that philosophy than the immediate edict of the President of the United States to the 9/11 attacks that the only way the American public should respond to this disaster was to take to the malls and go shopping. He was obviously more concerned with the effect on the economy than the horror of the attack and the true effects on the people he governs.
When we see the corruption in the corporate world going unpunished, the rampant destruction of the environment being justified as necessary for economic growth, the unfettered control over the rapid rise in prices for goods and services completely ignored, and the obvious control of the people's representatives in government through lobbying, another word for extortion and bribery, the above cited verse takes on a new light.

"And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:" (Revelation 18:11) "The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing," (Revelation 18:15)
The importance of the downfall of the world's global businesses is emphasized throughout this chapter. This point alone, the fact that an entire chapter in the Revelation is devoted to global business, should attest to the relevance of the control of corporations over the world at the end of this era. It becomes particularly relevant in the last verses of this chapter.

"And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived. And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth." (Revelation 18:23-24)
Here the various mistaken concepts of the "Great Deception" of the end times; the many satanic antichrists and prophets, an individual Antichrist, or even the evil aliens, meet stark biblical reality. The great merchants, now known as corporations, are directly tied to the deception of the entire world. As a note worth considering; the word "men" in the 23rd verse was added by translators. The phrase "great men" is taken from the plural of the Greek word megistos, pronounced meg'-is-tos, which means greatest or very great in a generic sense, not specific to men.
Many people now actually believe that there is a conspiracy by the corporate world to control every aspect of our lives.
Consider the following realities involved directly with the very fact that you are able to read these words:
♦ These words are being typed on a keyboard and using a mouse; both with the prominent logo "Microsoft", using a "Microsoft Word" document, and it will be entered into a program called "Microsoft Front Page" for uploading to the web. Microsoft is a corporation.
♦ The computer that facilitates the whole process is manufactured by Compaq, a corporation; it is powered by electricity from Pacific Gas and Electric, a corporation, and is assembled from parts supplied by several other corporations.
♦ The web page these words appear on will be uploaded to a web host, which is a corporation, through an internet connection provided by Comcast, another corporation, to a website that is accessed using a web address purchased through yet another corporation.
♦ All of those reading these words can trace the way those words got to them through several more corporations.
♦ It should be noted that this work is not incorporated.
Without paying several corporations, the publication of these words would not be possible. If everyone would simply look around in their individual worlds, their possessions, the activities they participate in and virtually every aspect of their lives, they would realize this is not a conspiracy of corporate world control. The conspiracy is history, the reality is here; every aspect of our lives is being controlled by corporations. Put in the simplest of scriptural terms, we can see how the unfettered greed of the corporate mindset and actual laws governing corporations is the epitome of evil as described in the Bible: "For the love of money is the root of all evil:, " (1 Timothy 6:10). The dedication to wealth and possession of wealth is the cause of all evil and corporations are not only completely dedicated to this, they have programmed the entire world to think that this is the highest ideal humanity can achieve and the most worthy goal to pursue. Is this not only the greatest deception in human history, but also the most obvious?
While Jesus clearly said it is harder to get a rich man into the Family of God than to squeeze a camel through the eye of a needle, we are conditioned, from cradle to grave, to obtain as many possessions as possible, and to follow the capitalist ideal religiously. The imposition of capitalism, under the deceptive name "democracy", throughout the world, is now the stated goal and major focus of the most powerful nation on Earth.
Since Satan is the great deceiver, he tried to kill Jesus at his birth, (Rev. 12:5), and he attempted to deprive mankind of its ultimate destiny by his temptation of the Christ, is it any wonder that he is again involved in a full blown attempt to deceive mankind and presumably lead it to its own self-destruction? We do know that a dire warning is given if the deception in place is not stopped. When asked about when he would return at the end of the age, he began his description by saying "Take heed that no man deceive you." (Matt. 24:4), describes those times and the events to watch for, and predicted that, "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved:" (Matt. 24:22)
No doubt, the two witnesses will loudly decry the deception of the corporate world as the greatest power Satan is using to blind humanity to its ultimate destiny, which is the salvation Jesus died for. This will immediately garner the wrath of the corporations who will try to have them destroyed.

Pastor Agbaje you would find the article below very revealing about who the two witnesses are.


[size=16pt]The Witnesses[/size]
Perhaps one of the most bizarre, and least-considered events in the Revelation, is the sudden appearance of two individuals called the "witnesses". The word witnesses is taken from the Greek word martus, pronounced mar'-toos, which means witness, and also "martyr"; an interesting definition considering their fate. We know the following about these witnesses from the 11th Chapter of the Revelation:

♦ The two fill their mission of prophesy for a period of three and a half years dressed in very basic human attire, but we do not have a clear picture of what that prophesy is.
"And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth." (Revelation 11:3)

♦ The witnesses are direct representatives of God.
"These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth." (Revelation 11:4)

♦ They have a very dangerous defense mechanism, which is described as fire they project that consumes any who attempt to attack them; presumably to stop them from what they are doing.
"And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed." (Revelation 11:5)

♦ They also possess the power to wreak physical havoc on the planet, though we do not know why they use these powers, or how often. These amazing powers are described as:
1. They can control the weather by stopping the rain. One may assume that the reading of the verse means it does not rain on the Earth for the entirety of their prophecy. It is unlikely that this will occur, as logic reveals all fauna and flora would die in short time and most humans would die of dehydration or starvation long before the mission is complete. Considering this is only the beginning of the global chaos remaining, it is more likely that they can cause droughts throughout the period of their presence.
"These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy:, " (Revelation 11:6)
2. Their control also extends to an ability found in Old Testament accounts of the tactics used before the Exodus of the Hebrews from Egypt; they turn water to blood. The event in the Book of the Exodus describes this as God turning all land surface water to "blood", including moving sources like rivers, standing water like pools, and even water in vessels rendering it undrinkable. One barely noticed exception to this horrific plague is that ground water seems to remain uncontaminated, (see verse 24). Again, we do not know how often they perform this phenomenon, but it is unlikely it is a continuing condition.
" , and have power over waters to turn them to blood," (Revelation 11:6)
3. Last, but from its obvious ramifications, certainly not least, is what seems to be an even more awesome power. The verse uses the word "plagues" when describing this power. The word "plagues" is taken form the Greek word plege, pronounced play-gay', which means; a stroke; by implication, a wound; figuratively, a calamity. By implication and by adding the word "all" to the equation we can safely form this concept. They have the power to create any kind of disaster or unsavory condition imaginable, and they can do it at will.
", and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will." (Revelation 11:6)
It is important to note the "as often as they will" clause, which gives us an indication that they use these powers as needed in conjunction with their mission, rather than just perform random acts against humanity.

♦ The next reference is to the killing of the witnesses at end of their completed mission. It should be considered carefully that from the previous verses we know this is no ordinary assassination. Obviously, they have incredible power and, no doubt, every element of military weaponry available will be used against them while the world is trying to stop them. If 3 1/2 years of effort in this era of high tech weaponry could not stop them, it is no wonder that the final effort to eliminate them is called a war.
"And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them." (Revelation 11:7)

♦ We are not sure where they start their mission, nor where, or if, they travel, but we do know they are killed in Jerusalem.
"And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified." (Revelation 11:

♦ Either, because the area around them is too dangerous or for the simple barbaric pleasure of just displaying their bodies to the world publicly; their bodies remain in public view for 3 days. During this period the entire world has a celebration, complete with gift giving, over their defeat.
"And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth." (Revelation 11:9-10)

♦ Much to the chagrin of the celebrants, they come back to life after the three days.
"And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them." (Revelation 11:11)

♦ In a manner well-documented in scripture, the witnesses are beamed up into a cloud-like vehicle in the presence of their assassins and, no doubt, the whole world.
"And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them." (Revelation 11:12)

♦ After this a great earthquake strikes Jerusalem, it destroys a tenth of the city and kills 7000 people.
"And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven." (Revelation 11:13)

Although nothing is said about the prophecy, which is at the heart of their mission, there is little doubt of its importance and God's willingness to emphasize it with such power, and emphasize it over so long a period of time. There is also little doubt that eradicating the two witnesses from the planet will be the focus of humanity and not the heeding of their message. While any commentary is only speculative, it can be assumed that their message has, at least, some of the elements of the words of Jesus and the apostles, the absolute deteriorating condition of the world's social, moral, and environmental state, the coming disasters about to befall mankind, and the alternatives to those disasters.

Will the Witnesses Support the Church?
Today's church shows great concern over the social conditions of the world but this does not include starvation, disease, poverty, and war. It is simply focused on gaining political power to impose a conservative agenda in all areas of life. The scriptural concept of Jesus actually having a ruling hand in the affairs of mankind, and a physical presence on Earth after his return, is ignored by the pulpit, instead teaching that the current biosphere will be destroyed immediately. The ones escaping the holocaust spoken of in the Bible will live in bliss in an imaginary heaven with Jesus and the angels. The care of, or concern for, the environment has become a moot point to the church. Starvation, disease, and poverty are considered to be the result of ignoring the pulpit and punishment of God for failing to follow church edict.
On war, the church leaders believe it is justified if it is the will of the leaders of the U.S. or its allies, because they believe the leadership of the U.S. is chosen by God directly and, therefore, their actions can't be questioned. War, if outside U.S. influence, is the result of evil caused by failure to heed God's will, as defined by the church, and no concern of the Christian community except for cannon fodder for assaults from the pulpit against those heathens who hate God. Little consideration is given to the fact that the leadership of the U.S. is elected primarily by money provided mainly by corporations, influenced by those same corporations through the lobby system after their election, and often found in the executive offices and board rooms of their corporate handlers after their term is served. If God is choosing the leaders of the U.S., he is using organizations with greed as a mandated practice in their corporate laws, a direct contradiction to the principles of Jesus.
Ironically, the corporations align themselves, and their money, with the conservative theocratic agenda. Conservatives tend to be strong capitalists, and religious conservatives believe the wealth of the church and its members are in direct proportion to, and evidence of, the blessings of God or, of course, the lack thereof. The formula could not be more simple or direct. What is good for corporations is good for the economy; what is good for the economy is good for the bank account of the church. The church also believes impressive buildings with parking lots filled with impressive cars are like billboards for God and his promise of prosperity. God does not promise, and even condemns such thought, but that technicality is easy to deal with; it is ignored.
Morality is a tightly defined set of agendas in the church, and does not officially include loving your fellow man, the cornerstone of the teachings of Jesus. Rejection and judicial banning of homosexuality, abstinence before marriage, pro-life issues, conservative courts and politicians to enforce the church's moral agenda, purity in the media, creationism, euthanasia, and support for any war the military industrial complex decides is needed makes up the bulk of their concerns, public agenda, and internal efforts. Poverty is not a moral issue; if you are poor, God made you that way. If you are destroying the environment it is not immoral as it makes no difference; God will destroy it anyway. Social service for disabled and the elderly is classified as a liberal agenda. If you are not blessed with perfect health and the ability to care for yourself, your faith is weak. Any other issues of social responsibility are conveniently lumped into the non-existent scriptural edict that "God helps those that help themselves".
How can the witnesses, who are direct representatives of God, and are warning the world of its wrongs support a church that is the shining example of the scriptural condemnations "And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?" (Luke 6:46), and "But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men." (Matthew 15:9). Building great structures, holding weekly meetings, extorting tithes from church members, showing intolerance for those we disagree with, forming political agendas, supporting wars while ignoring poverty and disease, and attempting to influence every aspect of life with a conservative slant are not the commandments of God. Pursuing or even advocating wealth flies in the face of Jesus' declaration that the richer you are the harder it is to become a member of the Family of God. Failure to follow the model of the first church Jesus created and condemning the socialist aspects present in that church as satanic shows not love and worship for Jesus but disdain and rejection. It is doubtful the church will get anything but the same disdain and rejection from the witnesses. And, it is very likely that when the true nature of the church is exposed by them, the church will call for their elimination at all cost.

source: http://www.bibleufo.com/witness.htm

blezo:
It is actually better to keep your mouth shut if you noe u have nothing good to say about someone not to talk of a man of God. If he said it is God that said that by august he will have 120000 members, then leave it for God.

But we know for a fact that it is NOT God that told him he will have 120,000 members, rather he is being motivated by ambition, his Ego and blind greed which he has continuously displayed in his so called ministry.

mabell:
KunleOshob

Whatever you meant by "compulsory tithing" I dont know, tithing is tithing. I tithe and i experience its tremendous blessing. You dont tithe too bad ,its a hard road. Anyway ,its your choice.
My pastor no dey bleach o, Him papa yellow, him mama yellow. Say the truth you like the man so tey, you dont know how to express it but to attack him on nairaland, but its a pity he is too busy to read such.
By the way, I saw someone like you for Synagogue, its a good place for you to start. Some of your inconsistencies and double standard will soon be2 arrested by God. today you belive in tithe, another day you dont belive, i read some of your older posts. I said "God have mercy on this guy" He just wants attention at all cost.

I have never supported tithing as i have always known it is the biggest fraud in the history of mankind and it is a doctrine promoted by the devil himself to encourage mammon worship amongst church leaders. You tithers always claim so-called blessings but the tuth is that non tithers are better blessed than you since we have not been cut off from the grace of christ like you guys [galatians 5:4] neither have we placed our selves under the curse attached to tithing in malachi 3:8-12 What i have always maintained is that if a person having come to the full knowledge of truth that tithing is neither compulsary nor even obligatory for a christian and he still decides to give 10% or whatever % of his income as he purposes in his heart to the church there is nothing wrong with that. But a situation were churches willfully distort scriptures to fleece the flock in the name of tithing is simply unacceptable and contrary to the wishes of God.

@Mabell
I have absolutely nothing against giving in churches it is wrong teachings such as the twisted version of compulsary tithing and first fruits that is very popular in false churchs like CEC that i vehemently oppose. I also oppose church leaders/pastors fleecing the flock in anyway and also church pastors who live a flamboyant lifestyle whilst distorting scriptue to justfy it. Your bleached pastor is very notorious for this and he shall surely give account to our maker on that day.

viaro:
Hello KunleOshob,

I am at odds with your statement that Jesus never taught tithing - that is a denial of Matthew 23:23. I don't want to go about that long route again, maybe another day when we have an appropriate thread, viaro will stand ready to share why anti-tithers have no leg to stand in denying Matthew 23:23. The best you guys can say is that you do not like that verse, but not to posion the minds of simple readers by saying that Jesus never taught tithes. Please.

My dear, we have been through this issue several times andyou nkow my position on it and that is that Jesus was not teaching tithing to christians rather he was commenting on it and saying the pharisees who were under the law should not ignore the weightier matters of the law whilst tithing their mint and cummin [not money or income]. That can never be interpreted to mean new testament christians who are not under the jewish laws should tithe. The apostles made it clear in acts 15 that the jewish laws were not applicable to gentile christian converts. So trying to imply that Jesus taught tithing to believers in that over recycled matthew verse is not only mischievious but outrightly dis-honest.

It is clear to me that it is actually pastors and preachers who mis-appropriate church collections to finance their vulgar life styles that are robbing God. Also preaching compulsary tithing of congregation's income which is clearly different from biblical tithing is akin to robbing the children of God and can be likened to robbing God as well.

Someone once testified on this forum [rich john] i think that after testifying in church [christ embassy plc] that he got his visa, he was encouraged to sow his ticket money to the church so that God he would prosper when he travels So if you want your pastor to demand you be sending home your tithes and offerings which must be in hard currency you can go on and testify

@Viaro/ trauggot

Okay i am willing to accept that tithes was never "abolished" for christians as long a you also admit that tithing was never part of christianity ab initio so the issue of abolishing it does not even arise. Tithing was never taught by Jesus nor the apostles that were mandated to establish the faith and spread the gospel, tithing was only smuggled into christianity between the 6th and 8th century by the RCC as a manipulative strategy of rasing additional funs for the use of there church. So you guys are right as far as christianity is concerned it was not abolished as it was never a christian doctrine in the first instance but an obsolete teaching borrowed and and twisted from judaism.

olowolekan:
Mat 15 :8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

I am glad you posted this scripture as it is very evident that tithing as it is preached and practised today is a depature from the true biblical tithes and as such can be accurately described as a doctrine of man being presented as the word of God. Please note that biblical tithing is tithes of farm produce done once a year and the tither, his family, poor and needy and levites partake of the tithes [deut 14:22-29] contrary to the false man made version of today which is money from every income done on a weekly/monthly basis given exclusively to the church or pastor. Clearly tithing as it is practised today is a doctrine of Man

May God continue and enable TB Joshua to continue doing his true work of taking care of the poor and needy as directed by christ contrary to what most other pastors are doing today.

desgiezd:
Na wah ooo! See wetin, KunleOshob, OBJ's major e-supporter dey do Yar Adua, OBJ's annointed political heir/son

Yar'adua is a prodigal son, he has been dis-owned by OBJ

Traugott:
Yes I can sustain it with the fact that you insist that "tithing has been ABOLISHED", rather than saying that tithing is no longer compulsory, but done out of an act of love.

That's my point.

Trauggot what we are saying is that tithing based on the law as been abolished and not tithing as an act act out of choice. However what is being preached in most churches is compulsary tithing based on the law which is contrary to the teachings in the gospels and the epistles which is more relevant to christians than the obsolete mosaic laws. That aside what is even being practised today is not even biblical but a manipulation of biblical tithing as we all know that biblical tithing was tithes of agricultural produce and it was done once a year contrary to the twisted version being preached and practised today. For emphasis i would state again that what we are rallying against is the twisting of the word of God for filthy gain by those that have been entrusted to teach people the truth about God's word. Its very wrong and smirks of high hypocrisy and totally anti ethical to the teachings of God in the bible.

viaro:
Even your very best shot on Hebrews 7 has been put to perpetual sleep by pilgrim.1, and the only thing you can do now is REPEAT the same garboil that you often use to save face - no fresh light, nothing new, just the same cacophony of illiterate anti-tithers who lie from now till kingdom come! If there is a single verse that mentions that TITHE has been abolished, please post it plain and let's see - no KunleOshob brand of twisting scripture. That verse should clearly say that tithe is abolished, or you will only be repeating your brand of lies.

When I pointed out the fact that there are many respected Christians and pastors who give tithes without a 'compulsory' or 'mandatory' anthem, your mob-gang made all the noise they could muster until I pointed out a few. Then chukwudi44 posted one from Pastor Tunde Bakare, which unbeknownst to him was working against his own arguments - and all hell broke loose. I guess you guys will also accuse Bakare of being a criminal and a Scripture-twister? Even leaving aside the joker that anti-tithers' lies are most often borrowed from their dubious 'Christian ministers' websites, where have you guys ever been open to an affable discussion that shows your own scholarship? Just amuse yourself with the hollow analysis you have been waving up and down Nairaland.

Now you of all people should know that what we have continuosly condenmed is the compulsary nature with which most pastors preach tithing using Malachi 3:10 based on on the obsolete and anulled jewish law which was never directed at christians, if all pastors were honest enough to admitt that tithing is not compulsary as pastor Bakare stated then we won't be having this discussion and all the controversy sorrounding the tithing scam would not exist. Pastors are by nature of their calling expected to stand for the truth at all times, unfortunately when it comes to money the story is different which makes one to questionj if they are really called in the first instance.

PS; No matter how much you want to twsit and mis-interprete hebrews 7, it clearly anulls tithing based on the law.  

You can send him you get well wishes here

The bible is very clear that tithing as been anulled for believers and it states so explicitly however most pro tithers choose to ignore this message to christians in the book of hebrew and rather dwell on the what was written to non believers[ jews] in the book of malachi which is now twisted to favour the greedy lusts of the tithing proponents > The bible in the book of hebrews makes it clear that tithing is not relevant to the priesthood of christ and it clearly anulls it i would reproduce the whole passage here so people can read it in ti's proper context and judge for themselves. I would also put some analysis in parenthis to help put things in clearer perspective.


Hebrews 7:5-19:

5And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:

[The above highlighted makes it crystal clear that it is the tithing aspect of the law that is being dicussed in this passage]

6But he whose descent is not counted from them received tithes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises.

7And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better.

8And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.

9And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.

10For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.

11If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

12For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

[The verses above makes it clear that the law of tithing has been changed becos the priest hood as changed]

13For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.

14For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

[Anyone familiar with the tithing law would know it was meant for the levites who were the ones who served at the alter. Verse 14 further states that Jesus was from Judea and not a levitical priest thus implying even Jesus was not qualified to recieve tithes how much less the impostors that claim to be collecting it on his behalf]
15And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,

16Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.

17For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

18For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.

19For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

This final verse completes it all it makes it clear that the commandment to tithe earlier mentioned in the passage as been anulled becos it is a weak and unprofitable commandment. Reading this passage in proper context, it is clear to any right thinking person that it clearly anulls tithes. However some smart alecs try to twist it to mean something else, Pilgrim.1 once argued it was refering to the law as a whole and not to tithing i was amazed that she did not see the contradiction and hypocrisy in that poorly conceived and illiterate like statement as it is glaring from that pasage that and many others that tithing is part of the jewish laws and it was specifically mentioned in the anullment. After exposing their folly and showing the contradictions in their position they run to the abrahamic one off example to the King of Salem[jerusalem] and claim that tithing was before the law. Whilst we know that the babylonians [were abraham was from] practised tithing before the law it was not based on a commandment from God but on traditions of men. How ever 99% of scammers who preach tithing preach it form the obsolete and anulled laws to deceive christians that it is a compulsary practise and that is what is really dissapointing that a man who claims to be serving God would willfully twist his word for the sake of filthy lucre.

@David
Thanx for asking after moi i was having problems with my Laptop, but the problem as been rectified now.

@krayola
You don begin your devil's advocate wahala again

I really can't believe that there are still so many people [who assume they are christians] that are still arguing in favour of compulsary tithing do they read and understand their bibles at all? It has been proven time and time again that tithing as it is preached and practised today as no sound biblical basis and is the height of scriptural manipulation. Tithing was never directed to christians as it was just a jewish / babylonian custom of the old testament which was incorporated into jewish laws and tithes was never money or income. Jewish laws are not applicable to christianity today even though they are mentioned in the bible, It is really unfortunate i have been away from this forum for a while else i would have taken up some charlatans who have been twisting scriptures to justify this scandalous and manipulative practise in christiandom today. However i would not let the lie which originated from the very darkest and deepest pit of hell and communicated via pilgrim.1 viaro that there is no place in the bible that anulls tithing and her further attempts to twist the passage all in an effort to justify her filthy lies. I would be posting the relevant hebrew passage and analyzing it shortly for all to see.

Yeah they can motivate you to empty your pockets for them on a routine basis

[quote author=Tonye-t link=topic=389323.msg5409201#msg5409201 date=1264759166]@Joagbaje,

Let me tell you a little about my brother KunleOshob, from my little stay here in this religious section

- i have known him as someone who cannot say a thing and stand bold to it even in the face of ridicule so he chooses to always use the word "WE"
to maybe get some comrades who'll back him. And yet he calls himself a CHRISTIAN

- He barely writes anything in detail to butress his points, but will choose to copy and paste what others have written to back and butress him assertions

- He is wholly against the Gospel when Prosperity is preached, yet i wonder if he even gives at all

- I asked him once if his church even believes in offerings and KunleOshob said NO they dont take offerings, so any argument with him will be an exercise in futility as he is void of the knowledge of the topic - Giving.

That's kunle for you![/quote]On the contrary i NEVER copy and paste anything somebody else has written, if i do i challenged to you show us examples. People on this forum would testify that my posts are always very incisive, detailed and backed with sound relevant scripture rightly divided unlike you and your cohorts who not only twist scripture but you panel beat and batter it to say the opposite of what it is meant to be saying.

toba:
If xtians re to shawn prosperity,then who are those that prosperities re ment for? Unbilivers? No way God is prosperous,he created heaven&earth,plants&animals,sea,air&land.All these are prosperity&success.We browse wit our phones&systems,we pay subscriptions with money,we wear suits,ride cars etc bought with lots of money.How can we not prosper? We cant serve God as a pauper

Nobody has said it is wrong for christians to prosper what were are saying is that prosperity is irrelevant to the gospel of our lord Jesus christ, if you prosper fine, if you don't no problem. But our lord jesus christ never promised any beleiver material wealth. If you think he did please quote one single scripture were Jesus promised material wealth for believing his gospel. And your last statement that "we can't serve God as a pauper" is very wrong and contrary to sound scripture as Jesus always made it clear that the poor were dear to him, so don't let ou mis-guided preachers teach you what is contrary to the will of God.

Snowwy:
This is actually my last post on this section.
Also, lets hear of the agricultural products you have taken to God's house as tithe or offering since money is not mentioned.
Thank you and I wish you the best.

Good riddance to twisted and deluded rubbish

Snowwy:
Please he said they tithe on all they own INCLUDING mint etc. If you are saying some 'pastors' are now hammering only on the[b] financial aspects of the bible[/b] fine but please to say paying tithe is wrong is very wrong.

Another blatant error on your part, now where in the bible is tithes ever referred to has money biblical tithes was strictly agricultural produce and money was not an acceptable substitute [deut 14:26] it is our mordern day preachers that twisted tithes to mean money. Hence tithes has absolutely nothing to do with the financial aspects of the bible.

Snowwy:
Hello Kunle,
There's no need to argue. If Jesus himself said it in Matt. 23: 23 that these are things that they should continue then why are you now saying he was talking to the pharisees only. Jesus was always talking to a group or the other when preaching, so are you saying he was not also referring to us. Do you see the way you keep messing up everything to suit what you want to hear and understand. Get a grip!

Please he said they tithe on all they own INCLUDING mint etc. If you are saying some 'pastors' are now hammering only on the financial aspects of the bible fine but please to say paying tithe is wrong is very wrong.

Please if you are basing this on what obtained in their time, please why are you following the bible at all since its a historic book? All your comments are a constant contradiction of each other.
You have even made it a duty to stop others from paying tithe and happy for it! Don't worry your eyes will be opened.
Since its convenient for you not to pay tithe then feel free. Serving God is by choice and conviction but why force your convictions on others. This is the very same thing you are blaming so-called fake pastors of doing. So Bro, remove the log in your own eyes.

As for just being new to the thread, i try to avoid this section and I guess I should have stayed away. I notice you made a comment on speaking in tongues and 90% of people speaking in tongues fake it. I guess you have even made yourself God that knows all. Or from what did you deduce this figure? You see there are some things we should refrain from saying and also stop castigating men who claim to be of God (fake or not). God is the judge and not you!
The things of God are sacred, so fake or not, God won't judge us as a group but as individuals. If you decide not to abide by God's word beacuse there are so many fake people and prophets then I must say what an excuse!
I think you should take out time to really ask for a deeper understanding of God's word as God's word needs Him to explain better.

As you said there is no need to argue so i would post the relevant scriptures below so the whole forum can see who is being addressed by Jesus and the context within which he was speaking. It is important to note that context is very important when reading the scriptures for proper understanding else you would allow yourself to be tossed up and down by those who claim they understand it. The verse make s it crystal clear that Jesus was specifically addressing the pharisees who were under the law and that tithing was also part of the law:

Matthew 23:23-25:

  23Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites ! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

  24Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

  25Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.

@snowwy
I would give you one bonus scripture for those of you who think can find favour with God by keeping parts of the obsolete jewish laws.

Galatians 5:4:
4 For if you are trying to make yourselves right with God by keeping the law, you have been cut off from Christ! You have fallen away from God’s grace.

Keeping the lawswhich includes tithing means you are cutting yourself away from christ   i sincerely   for you, that is why the bible says people perish for lack of knowledge