₦airaland Forum

hi Carl

An example to the point: ask a Catholic to justify their bowing down in worship to graven images, and one is by default to get the same answer - "what about the serpent?" or "the cherubim on the ark of the covenant?" or "what about this or that image in the Bible?" - and for all that, you have not been able to show where anyone - ANYONE - actually worshipped these things in direct contravention of the warnings in God's Word.

Show us where anyone actually worshipped Mary in contravention of the warnings in God's Word. If the reverence of the serpent in the desert wasn't wrong, what is wrong with the reverence of Mary?

You are so laughable, you can't even answer a simple question. I have asked time and time again, what is the difference between the golden calf and the bronze serpent? They were both graven images of things infact animals, why were the Israelites punished for one and then other one they were even asked to look to it for help?

If it is so simple to refute and if my argument lack substance why do you have such a hard time answering the questions?

Once again stop making the claim that Catholics are asked to worship Mary in the form of latria, if you cannot be truthful then cease to speak and spread lies about the Church.

This is the biggest laugh I've had in a long time!!  For crying out loud, if you knew the Catholic Church did not believe in such things, why have you been ducking under the excuses of the bronze serpent, the cherubim and the graven images of Mary? You excuse them under the term "veneration" - but even if I should grant you that, are you so unaware that I was referring to the catholic doctrine of "veneration" as defining "dulia" and "hyperdulia"?!?   Are you the only Catholic that is so vastly oblivious of this fact?

I haven't been ducking under any excuse other than asking you answer simple questions that you cannot answer. Let me repeat that for you I HAVE BEEN ASKING YOU QUESTIONS TO ANSWER, BUT YOU HAVEN'T BEEN ABLE TO, my whole point has never been to prove that worshipping of graven images in wrong, but to show you that just because it is an image doesn't mean it is worshipping. That is te reason why I have asked you to tell me the difference between the golden calf and the bronze serpent, weren't both of them images?

So please don't skip over, actually answer the question rather than result to the usual tactic of concluding a discussion and in the process confusig people. ANSWER THE QUESTION:  [size=13pt]WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE GOLDEN CALF AND THE BRONZE SERPENT?[/size]

ARE THEY BOTH IMAGES OR NOT?

WHY WERE THE ISRAELITES PUNISHED FOR ONE AND THEN ASKED TO LOOK TO THE OTHER?

In consonance thereto, I asked you to find where any of those terms (latria, dulia, or hyperdulia) fit the events of the serpent, the cherubim, man, or even the graven images. I wasn't surprised you would evade that one so smartly - because for all intents and purposes, you who cried "veneration" could not establish where any of those venerations (dulia or hyperdulia) were applied to any one of those events in the Bible.

Stop rushing through posts, actually read them, this was my response.

I didn't know you wanted that I thought you were just making a statement and I picked up on it. But here it goes, dulia is what you speak of when you state that these men bow not out of worship. chron 21:21 for example.

You could have found it on page 9. Actually read through you will get some answers.

~Lady~, humility is simply admitting that you either don't know, or that you cannot accept the fact as it appears

You might want to take your own advice, deliberating twisting things to suit you isn't good. False truth are lies. For example when you said that the name Glory of Israel was due to God alone, that was a lie, It has always been Glory in Israel, in Ecclesiasticus, he said he would set his glory on Israel.

I have not solicited references from non-Catholic sources: rather, I went directly to your own Church affirmations so that you will be aware of what your leaders define for the world. To pretend these issues and then come back hooting that the Catholic Church does not believe in them, is to categorically deny the same things you had used in defence of your affirmations! Em. . . I think others are seeing already how evasive and untenable this attitude actually is. I grant you your excuse, though. . . you cannot establish them from the Bible - because in none of those events did the Bible ask any man to venerate those objects whether by dulia, hyperdulia or even latria! So, what are you still doing with graven images then?

You have solicited non-catholic websites, I checked the catholic websites and Mariolatria is not encouraged, I know for a fact that you got that from a non-catholic website so don't come here and lie.

Latria is the worship due God, Dulia is the reverence of humans, Hyperdulia is the high reverence of Mary and Mary alone, notice that is not saying Hyperlatria, so it is not equating Mary to God or putting her on the same level as God, insted it is saying Hyperdulia, placing it a bit abve other humans but not anywhere close to God.
Please use the proper definitions of the terms thanks.

~Lady~, just to reassure you and remove any tendencies of the excuse of being lazy to go and check, let me simply give you by reposting what the Catholic website says:


There are several degrees of this worship:
if it is addressed directly to God, it is superior, absolute, supreme worship, or worship of adoration, or, according to the consecrated theological term, a worship of latria. This sovereign worship is due to God alone; addressed to a creature it would become idolatry.
When worship is addressed only indirectly to God, that is, when its object is the veneration of martyrs, of angels, or of saints, it is a subordinate worship dependent on the first, and relative, in so far as it honours the creatures of God for their peculiar relations with Him; it is designated by theologians as the worship of dulia, a term denoting servitude, and implying, when used to signify our worship of distinguished servants of God, that their service to Him is their title to our veneration (cf. Chollet, loc. cit., col. 2407, and Bouquillon, Tractatus de virtute religionis, I, Bruges, 1880, 22 sq.).
As the Blessed Virgin has a separate and absolutely supereminent rank among the saints, the worship paid to her is called hyperdulia (for the meaning and history of these terms see Suicer, Thesaurus ecclesiasticus, 1728).source: Catholic Encyclopedia - http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15710a.htm


Now, dear ~Lady~. . .the terms have been outlined in their various types of "venerations". Whether it is dulia, hyperdulia, or latria, can you show us where any such terms applies to:

~~ the worship of man

~~ the worship of the bronze serpent

~~ the worship of cherubims

~~ the worship of graven images?

Em, please retire that excuse of we do not "worship" Mary - your Catholic Encyclopedia quoted above makes the case to the contrary by stating: "the worship paid to her is called hyperdulia". Now, in the same manner, please show us the HYPERDULIA or DULIA in any one of the above events of the serpent, the cherubim, man, and the graven images of Mary as you have always excused them from the Bible. Just simply show us from the Bible - that will do. Thank you again.

Ok now what does HYPERDULIA mean? Is hyperdulia equal to God?

The one paid to the serpent was hyperdulia because the Israelites looked up to it for help. It was their savior at that point. Te one to the cherubim was dulia, the one to the man was dulia, if the images of Mary is graven, then the bronze serpent is a graven image too, and so must Jesus, because just as the serpent was lifted up so was Jesus, so why did God allow it?

When you actually start being truthful we will get somewhere.

Lol. . . you never start! Anyone can see how evasive her replies have been. You no go find the verses - they don't exist!

Are you sure about that? Because last time I checked the greeting given to Mary was "Hail, full of grace, blessed are yu among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb"
The Our Father is the prayer taught to us by Jesus himself. The birth of Jesus is in the Bible, the death of Jesus is in the Bible, the resurrection of Jesus is in the Bible, the baptism of Jesus is in the Bible, the woman clothed with the sun is in the Bible.
These are what make up the rosary prayer.
But since you all advocate that prayer is wrong, please tell me why do you recite Psalm 23, where is it advocated that you recite it?

I bet you won't find a single verse that says "pray the psalm 23"
Stop being hypocritical, start being truthful and start with yourself.

Hmmm interesting discourse, I think this is one of those chicken or egg which comes first issues because both sides are actually making sense. Maybe both sides could start by having a common definition of what some important terms like worship, bowing, veneration and so on in the discourse means both in the present day and the past. Just maybe that would make the line of division a bit clearer

It's already been defined for them, I defined for her earlier and the other lady did the same, but when you have people who are hell bent on being deceitful, what do you get? Holier than thou hypocrites.
Homegirl skipped it all, that's why she has not answered any of my questions. I dare her to actually answer a question.

Precisely. Applause again!

Liar, you know very well that it has been given to you. Stop pretending as if you didn't see it. Answer my questions.

oh yeah! me think everyday isn't enof sef . . . rather every seconds

because she gave birth to Him who made her and remainest a Virgin forever

she also bore in her womb, the very one Whom the heavens cannot contain!

difficult to comprehend rite! yeah

Oh yes, if only people love God enough to understand his mercy and grace. If only they had critical thinking, sheesh some people just don't understand that sinless cannot dwell in sinful, therefore Mary must have been sinless in order God to dwell within her.

Please pray that those who lack comprehension may stop spreading false truths about Our Mother, and those who know her may well defend their faith and not follow man.

Glory to Jesus, Honour to Mary!!
Have a great day everyone.

What a temple of pride and heresy. Did the catholic church also define it to John who wrote this down explicitly in the book of 1 John? Was it the catholic church that defined it to Isaiah when he prophesied and called Jesus Christ the EVERLASTING FATHER?
Was it the catholic church who defined it to Philip in the book of John?

So John called it the Trinity. You can stop calling it the Trinity you know since it's our word and you know we're heretics, why use the same word that heretics use? You should from heretics and everything having to do with them? so why bother yourself with the word trinity? afterall we're the ones that call it the trinity.

i asked a very simple question at the begining of ur usual verbose meaningless verbal gymnastics . . . where is the use of the rosary commanded in the bible? What did i get in response? Tons of words saying nothing . . . why shld i be the one to supply proof? what proof?

Um that was not even in reference to the rosary and yu know it, I was responding to your post of matthew something i believe. yeah. so please stop being deceitful. and you still can't refute sacred tradition.

Simple question - where is it in the bible?

are you bored? or what? you asked for the rosary in sacred tradition and now you change the question? you are so deceitful. you know very well that the word rosary is not in the bible but the prayers that make up the rosary are in the bible. and i already gave you references.

you stil haven't answered my own questions, where does it say that psalm 23 must or should be prayed and where does it say that the prayers you said today (if infact you prayed today) are in the bible?

The Hail MARY PRAYER IS found in Luke 1:28 and 42
The Our Father is found in Matthew 6:9-13
So you got a problem with them. You got a problem with meditating on the events of Jesus and Mary's life?
If you do too bad, take it up with God.

There were no monks in the early church.

check again.

simple question again - where did Christ teach his disciples to pray with rosaries?

Where did Jesus ask you to pray Psalm 23 or to meditate on the scripture and actually here's where the Lord says we should pray matthew 6:9-13 that is a part of the rosary prayer, is that wrong too. the only prayer that Christ taught us to pray is the Lord's prayer is that the only prayer you say?

understood it perfectly, don't put words in my mouth out of desperation to paint me ignorant.

oh i don't have to, you that very well yourself. when you ask where does it say that the apsotles ask us to practice virtue, you show how ignorant you are.

Simple question - if the cross refers to our "struggles in life and our sufferings" why then is it a prominent symbol of veneration in your church?

Forgive us but we think that Jesus' suffering is important to us and venerating it is the least we can do, after all those struggles and sufferings were for us, we just think it's only respectful that we honour it.

I think you shld be HONEST enough to also indicate that you included those verses from Paul WELL AFTER i had responded to your earlier post.

Actually that wasn't intentional, but I do understand because my computer has issues, I noticedI posted the same thing twice. My computer is really slow, hence why it takes me a while to post.

since when did we bring Christ down to our level that the Lord who even the winds and the sea obey, He whom the devils here His voice and tremble is now subject to the laws of biology? I tire for people o . . .

Well forgive me mister biologist I guess you would tell us that Jesus wasn't born through Mary's vagina because he just couldn't have been in the level of humans, I mean I really thought when he decided to become human he did come to our level, and that he felt pain just as we felt pain. I mean what was the point of coming from a woman's womb in the first place if the woman was not to take any part in it.

The Lord have mercy. Baba see these faithless generation . . . they say you had no power to take on human form except through Mary's eggs. Baba . . . i give them up to you.

.
Let's assume You're right he could have come in the flesh without a woman, so why didn't he just drop of from the sky? Why did he have to come from a woman's womb? What's the significance of the woman's womb?
How does a baby take on human form? Does it just grow in the womb without an egg?

Na wa o. Baba . . . they even deny your Lordship . . . what else will they say? That you wouldnt have died if Joseph did not teach you carpentry?

Lolololol oh my Lord. goodness gracious are you that ignorant? do you really lack that much reasoning? aren't the one who said you have a Ph.d? and you can't reason?

Baba i know you see and hear all these but i just need to report them. They say you werent human or alive until you came out of Mary?
you who created Mary from the dust of the earth and the blast of your nostrils?

I'm really hoping that you just want to have fun and that you're not really this stupid or deceitful.

My dear don't use your usual hypocritical forcing words others didnt say into their mouths to curse me o please. Christ listens to me well because He promised to. The REAL ISSUE is whether He listens to you through His dead mother . . . His bible said no such thing.
[/quote
Um actually St. Paul tells us that even death cannot separate us from the body of Christ, and that we should all exchange gifts, and pray for one another, which means that even those who are dead that have made it to heaven can pray for us and those of us here on earth can pray for those who have not made it yet.
So you might wanna read the bible more, I believe this same St. Paul is the one that talks about the virtues that you deny.
so yeah he listens to us and yes even his mother. it's even more significant that his first act in his ministry and his first miracle was at the prompting of Mary his mother.

If God could speak through the ass of balaam why could He not dwell in the womb of Mary? Kai . . . Baba see these heretics. I tire for them.

if God could speak through the ass of balaam why didn't he just show up on earth on human form, why did he have to be born of a woman? why the woman? why is she important? i mean he can do anything so why not just bypass the woman? why not just show up randomly on earth or better yet why not make Jesus out of the dust just like Adam, he is the new Adam right?

True but He didnt say we should intercede through the dead.

Yeah um St. Paul said we should interceed for one another, you know pray for one another, and he did also say that death cannot separate us, so if we're not separated by death what stops us from praying for one another and sharing our gifts afterall we're not separated not even by death?

Haba Baba but this is too much ke. they say you are not divine without your mother? I don tire o . . . wetin them go talk again?

well do you believe you're divine? thank God I am not divine, i believe i am human, and my mother gave birth to a person with a body and soul and my body and soul are not separate. so are you saying that your body is separate from your soul? because that could only explain why you would think Mary gave birth to one nature of Jesus and not the other or that Jesus' divine nature is separate from his human nature.

When did God become subject to the laws of the natural?

well let's see, when they scourged him at the pillar he bled, and when they nailed him to the cross he bled, and he felt pain when he carried his cross, so i believe he um felt nature and that in order to feel that he had to have come from a human who also felt nature who gave him  his flesh and blood, and in order to get that flesh and blood he had to have grown from an egg into a fetus into an infant and then into a toddler and you know the rest. so if he wasn't going through the same natural process that al humans go through when taking on the human form why did it take nine months? why not less, i mean he just happened to be in the womb. why did the womb have to grow as a natrual baby would?

So when are we re going to see the verses advocating the rosaries because all this all yada yada is boring me.

please go and learn what a rosary is first and then come back and ask this question because i believe meditating on scripture is not wrong or at least that 's what i thought we were supposed to do?
there is no scripture saying you must pray the rosary, no the rosary is not compulsory, and the rosary is made up of the scripture.
it is too much for me to type right now what scritpure makes up the rosary but i can give you a hint on the some of the events that we meditate on.
we meditate on the birth of Jesus, on his death, on his resurrection, on the descent of the spirit, on him turning water into wine on the transfiguration on mount tabor on him carrying the cross, on his baptism, and so on. so if it is wrong to meditate on those please let me know, because that's what the rosary prayer is. it is simply meditation on scripture.
now please go and learn about what the rosary is before you come here making assumptions get rid of your ignorance first

My dear miss "twist the bible to conform to my own ungodly standards". The connotations of Ornan "bowing his head" and that in the 3rd commandment are completely different AND YOU KNOW IT. Stop trying to use semantics to dodge the issues.

I bow down my head to greet my father, we both know we are not doing this in veneration or in worship. When a Shango worshipper bows his head to the idol of shango, he knows EXACTLY what he is doing . . . he is not just saying good morning.

Sir I am not the one twisting the Bible you're making a claim that isn't true and for a christian to be dishonest, oh it doesn't surprise me, you do it all the time anyway.

As for the bowing down to your father it is veneration. Veneration is nothing but honour, and when you kneel in front of your dad you do venerate him, when you bow you do venerate him, but you do not worship him. That same veneration is what is done in the Catholic church.

yup a shango worshipper bows before the thing or whatever it is in worship as its god, Catholic bow before Mary as our mother, our sister, and our friend, and we venerate her for her blessedness, because she did say that all generations will call her blessed, and the angel did hail her and did call her full of grace, and Elizabeth did call her blessed. So therefore we call her blessed. Or do yo have a problem with us calling her blessed?

this is unbelievable!  
Madam, read your bible well . . . God merely used Mary as the vessel through which He came to earth in human form . . . Mary is NOT the mother of Christ in the physical sense of the word "mother" . . . her eggs did not bear Christ at all, rather she was concieved of the Holy Ghost . . . on that the bible is abundantly clear

Do you really need me to start teaching you about the birds and the bees and how it is a baby is formed in the womb?
What happens when a woman conceives, does she conceive by herself? Or does something else take place, I blieve naturally it takes sperm, which means that for you to say that she conceived of the Holy Spirit and she didn't have Christ in her eggs then when a woman conceives in order for her to have the baby in her eggs she must have conceived on her own?

Second point is do you dwell in the womb of a woman to know what goes on in there?

Third point is that Jesus would not have taken on the form of a human if he wasn't in Mary's eggs. Maybe you don't know what conception is, but it means that an egg has been fertilized. If it was not in the egg it was not conception it meant that Jesus came as a form of tumor.'
Anything other than an egg that grows in a woman's womb is a tumor

Secondly if Mary is not the mother of Christ, then Jesus isn't the christ. When a mother gives birth she doesn't give birth to a thing and then the spirit joins it after the birth of the child and then making it human, that means baby isn't human until after the birth, and baby isn't alive until after the birth.
Now we know that Mary gave birth to a person, because never a time was Jesus separate from his two natures. There was never a point he was human and then another point he was divine, he was both human and divine at all times. The person of Jesus is both human and divine, Mary gave birth to Jesus te person, not just Jesus the human.
We dealt with that heresy a long time ago, look it up

So Mary is the mother of God the Son, Jesus the Christ. And yes Jesus formed in an egg, if he didn't he wouldn't be human, he would be a tumor.

Why do you expect Christ, the creator of heaven and earth, the alpha and the omega, the begining and the end, to listen to a mere vessel that He created with His own hands?

Well when she asked for wine at the weding at Cana he did listen and did perform the miracle she wanted. ANd well I believe we're just human and I believe Jesus listens to me, sorry that you  don't believe he listens to you but he listens to me and he listens to his mother. So sorry for you, but dude I'm getting miracles off the ying yang cause he listens to me, you might want to start believing that he listens to mere humans.

And Mary was not just a mere vessel, if she was she wouldn't have been fit to carry God in her womb for nine months, I believe nothing impure can touch God, unless you're trying to say that God can dwell in sin.
God only dwells in holy places. Mary has to be holy for God to dwell in her. Not just anyone could carry the Son of God, it had to be the one "full of grace"

The bible clearly identifies the intercessor of the brethren . . . it is the LAMB of God and not Mary. This is heresy at its best, covered in the cloak of religiosity.

Um the Bible asks us to interceed for one another, but there can only be one mediator and that is Jesus the Christ and that is what the Church teaches.

Dear be careful not to deny Christ his divinity by denying his mother, heretics tried to do so early in christianity and the title of Mother of God was given to Mary to silence them.

this woman is confusion personified.

Here is the 3rd commandment - Exodus 20: 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God,

the presence of "or" in that statement clearly indicates that bowing is NOT the same as worshipping but BOTH are biblically WRONG

So then it was wrong for this to have taken place 1 Chronicles 21:19-21
19 David went up at Gad's command, given in the name of the Lord
20 While Ornan was threshing wheat, he turned around and saw the king, and his four sons who were with him, without recognizing them
21 But as David came on toward him, he looked up and saw that it was David. The he left the threshing floor and bowed down to David, his face to the ground.

So was Ornan committing idolatry there. Be careful not to stick your foot in your mouth hun. Bowing isn't wrong, bowing to worship is. If you took an image and regard it as God and then bow down to it, you are bowing down to worship it. That verse in Exodus is quite aware that you don't have to bow to worship you can also stand to worship, so when it states bow it states so in the event of worshipping and the "or to worship" was in the event of not bowing.
You don't have to bow to worship, so worshipping even without bowing is wrong if it is not the true God.
But you also don't have to worship someone when you bow as Ornan proves to us above, and many men prove when they propose to a girl or when the english greet each other.

this is unbelievable!  
Madam, read your bible well . . . God merely used Mary as the vessel through which He came to earth in human form . . . Mary is NOT the mother of Christ in the physical sense of the word "mother" . . . her eggs did not bear Christ at all, rather she was concieved of the Holy Ghost . . . on that the bible is abundantly clear

Do you really need me to start teaching you about the birds and the bees and how it is a baby is formed in the womb?
What happens when a woman conceives, does she conceive by herself? Or does something else take place, I blieve naturally it takes sperm, which means that for you to say that she conceived of the Holy Spirit and she didn't have Christ in her eggs then when a woman conceives in order for her to have the baby in her eggs she must have conceived on her own?

Second point is do you dwell in the womb of a woman to know what goes on in there?

Third point is that Jesus would not have taken on the form of a human if he wasn't in Mary's eggs. Maybe you don't know what conception is, but it means that an egg has been fertilized. If it was not in the egg it was not conception it meant that Jesus came as a form of tumor.'
Anything other than an egg that grows in a woman's womb is a tumor

Secondly if Mary is not the mother of Christ, then Jesus isn't the christ. When a mother gives birth she doesn't give birth to a thing and then the spirit joins it after the birth of the child and then making it human, that means baby isn't human until after the birth, and baby isn't alive until after the birth.
Now we know that Mary gave birth to a person, because never a time was Jesus separate from his two natures. There was never a point he was human and then another point he was divine, he was both human and divine at all times. The person of Jesus is both human and divine, Mary gave birth to Jesus te person, not just Jesus the human.
We dealt with that heresy a long time ago, look it up

So Mary is the mother of God the Son, Jesus the Christ. And yes Jesus formed in an egg, if he didn't he wouldn't be human, he would be a tumor.

Why do you expect Christ, the creator of heaven and earth, the alpha and the omega, the begining and the end, to listen to a mere vessel that He created with His own hands?

Well when she asked for wine at the weding at Cana he did listen and did perform the miracle she wanted. ANd well I believe we're just human and I believe Jesus listens to me, sorry that you  don't believe he listens to you but he listens to me and he listens to his mother. So sorry for you, but dude I'm getting miracles off the ying yang cause he listens to me, you might want to start believing that he listens to mere humans.

And Mary was not just a mere vessel, if she was she wouldn't have been fit to carry God in her womb for nine months, I believe nothing impure can touch God, unless you're trying to say that God can dwell in sin.
God only dwells in holy places. Mary has to be holy for God to dwell in her. Not just anyone could carry the Son of God, it had to be the one "full of grace"

The bible clearly identifies the intercessor of the brethren . . . it is the LAMB of God and not Mary. This is heresy at its best, covered in the cloak of religiosity.

Um the Bible asks us to interceed for one another, but there can only be one mediator and that is Jesus the Christ and that is what the Church teaches.

Dear be careful not to deny Christ his divinity by denying his mother, heretics tried to do so early in christianity and the title of Mother of God was given to Mary to silence them.

Lol. . . rather than express shock, please simply point out what in my quote refers to any one of the catholic doctrine of latria, dulia, or hyperdulia

I didn't know you wanted that I thought you were just making a statement and I picked up on it. But here it goes, dulia is what you speak of when you state that these men bow not out of worship. chron 21:21 for example.

I know what I stated, and nothing in those references justifies what Catholicism claims for Mary. I asked questions which are yet unattended - just roundabout arguments is all I have been reading from you. Do you care to offer simple verses (as I did) to show where latria, dulia, or hyperdulia was ever used in reference

You are asking me to prove something that we do not do. You are looking for me to justify the worship of Mary when infact we do not worship Mary. You think that if someone bows in front of an image then that means that the image is being worshipped, when in fact I have shown that an image was venerated but not to worship and you yourself gave an example of men bowing without worship, and what you did was provide proof for Catholicism's claim that you don't have to worship when you bow.

the worship of man

~~ the worship of the bronze serpent

~~ the worship of cherubims

~~ the worship of graven images?

Do not ask me to prove something that we do not believe in. I know you didn't get your references from a Catholic site or eligitimate one, because Mariolatry is against Church teaching and is not found in Church doctrine to be what we should do.
So when you stop using a standard that doesn't apply to us, then you'll get your answers.

Verses will be more helpful than the arguments filling pages that are saying nothing as yet.

You can't ask me to show you verses on what we do not believe in. What I've been saying is that just because it's an image doesn't mean it is worshipped.

Please refer to the previous page and harvest the links I offered. they will take you to the other thread where I have more than provided articulated evidence to the fact. Pick any from there and treat. I apologise upfront that I'm too lazy to reharsh the same retired arguments here

Lol well then we're both in a bit of a pickle because I too am lazy to go looking and reading through.

(a) there is no reference in the Bible that anyone bowed down to those images to worship them. They were never at any time venerated as Catholics venerate the images of Mary. If you find the quotes, please oblige us

and we do not bow down to worship. that's the key, you don't bow to worship. you don't have to bow to worship, you can worship standing, but for as long as you put something above God you are worshipping it. In the desert the serpent was their saviour I thought only God could be the savior and Christ did say that just as the serpent was lifted up so must the Son of Man.
I bow before my mum but that doesn't mean that I worship her, you can sit and worship, you can lay down and worship.
But just because you bow does not mean you worship ok. So saying that we bow to worship is wrong, we don't bow to worship We venerate, we reverence, we can kneel. Perfect example, when a man is proposing to a woman he kneels does that mean he is doing so to worship. In old english they bowed their heads to show respect and reverence, I'm sure you are very familiar with the "curtsy and bow" well do they bow to worship.
The key is that you do not bow to worship. You can reverence you can venerate but you can't worship.
So I think that's what's confusing you, you think we bow to worship, and we do not.

2) I did not make up my mind. I asked questions, I got denials instead. I  then offered evidence; what greeted me was absolute silence and nothing to counter those claims

what i mean is that you think that if anyone bows the must be doing so to show a form of worship, you may not realise that people bow without worshipping, they bow to show respect too.
That's the key, you don't bow to worship, you don't elevate Mary to the level of God.

Did they venerate those serpents? Which of the Catholic doctrine of latria, dulia, and hyperdulia did Israel apply to the bronze serpent? If you cannot find any such, what then is the basis of assuming what was never stated in Scripture?

I believe they looked up to the serpent as it was their saviour and that is my point, the difference between the golden calf and the serpent is that they elevated the calf to the level of God and used the calf as their god. But the serpent though it was an image and not different from the calf physically, it was not elevated to the position of God.
That is the difference between an image and a graven image. Money can be a graven image, if you elevate it to the position of God and so can sex.

The difference between Jesus and man is that though they are in the same form and the same image, one is in the position of God, rightfully so, and the other isn't.

That has been my whole point.

You sound more like assuming things with a strained polarization where you haven't reasoned things through. Arguing for the serpent does not mean they venerated or worshipped or paryed to it. if you think otherwise, please no long arguments, just post the verses to show us.

That was never my point, don't misunderstand me. My point is that while the serpent was in an image no different from the calf it was not elevated to the position of God as the calf was.
I was trying to get you to see that just because it's an image does not mean that it is worshipped.

Lol, I have dealt with this same issue in the other thread. I wish you would take some time and go through before repeating the same thing here, so that fresh issues will be dealt with. Prayer to Mary cannot be justified in God's Word.

Then why do you pray to your mother? Because if ever you ask your mother or anyone else to pray for you you are indeed praying to them.
Ever heard the phrase "I pray thee"? well what do you think it means?

Nothing new. It only goes to show that the Bishops who referred to Mary as the saviour of the people of Rome do so out of tradition, not out of regard to God's Word.

You still didn't address any of the points or issues I brought up. And by the way we are asked to hang on to what has been handed down to us. St. Paul says so.
God's Word itself is tradition, so how can you be against tradition and not be against God's Word? If you are against the Church tradition, you are against God's Word, because God's Word is sacred tradition.

The bible defined it, thank you.

Wrong, the Bible spoke of it, and the Catholic Church clearly defined it, because even till today people read and stil don't understand. You should know because you don't understand.

Show us the apostolic tradition of using rosaries. All this is long winded verbal gymnastics

What? Nothing to refute that the Bible is sacred tradition? Oh my word, david and here I thought you had some proof of that.
The rosary is not a sacred tradition, you don't have to pray it, it is by choice, seriously are you so desperate, but you want to know about the rosary and its history well here it is.

The rosary started in the early church when the monks would count and recite the psalms, they kept count with beads just as the Jews did in the past when they prayed, it was a way that illiterate people would keep count of the prayers that they said, and then in the 12th century Mary appeared to St. Dominic and asked him to promote the prayer of the rosary and ever since then the rosary has been one of the famous prayers and effective prayers of the Church.

That in itself is heresy. God never commissioned anyone to defend Him. When Peter rose to cut the ears of the men who arrested Christ what did He do?

Really? and here i thought that all this time you have been going around on nairaland being the defender of the truth, or is that not what you think you're doing right now?
And I am so glad that you mentioned Peter I believe he's the one who stated this: 15 But sanctify the Lord Christ in your hearts, being ready always to satisfy every one that asketh you a reason of that hope which is in you. 1 Peter 3:15

What "cross" was He talking about? The tiny miniature cross hanging from your neck?
please read with understanding next time - did you know that when Christ made that statement in Matthew 10 no one knew He was going to die by the cross? How then could He have been talking of a physical cross?

He was talking about our struggles in life and our sufferings, I was really hoping that you would understand what a cross is, I figure an atheist or a non-christian won't understand what the cross stands for, but for you to not understand, I mean that's shameful especially since you've been going around this board reproving everyone.

Was He talking of a physical yoke too? How could He say He would give those who already labour some rest in verse 28 and then proceed to give them a yoke in verse 29 and burden in verse 30?

Well yeah, he was, he was talking about our yokes spiritually, physically, emotionally, mentally, socially, anything having to so with you as a human, he was talking about that. Your Spirit is not separate from your body so it is also phycial, unless yo're dead. Are you dead david?

I find it unbelievable that a fellow christian can believe that what Christ meant was for us to be lugging physical crosses around.

This is so laughable, you know very well that you didn't know what I was talking about until I reminded you. Pride is a vice you know, the way to conquer it is humility.

What "cross" was He talking about here? A physical cross? So if i just go around with a cross around my neck i'D be fulfilling Matthew 16:24?

HAHAHA you're so desperate, because you know very well I was explicit in my explanation of the cross I was talking about there. Funny how you didn't comment on the passages I quoted from St. Paul's letter, wasn't St. Paul talking about the cross I was talking about? Or is it something else, because this time it comes from St. Paul?
So your response?

Religious wars. . . . . . . keep them coming catholics and protestant. . . . .

Who's warring? And no God didn't do worse than mo. Maybe you should try reading it in the context it is written. You know like in history, you know like cause and effect, you know self-defense, and then tell us how it is that God conquered those other nations. I remember one, i can't pinpoint it right now on the Bible but a way that the Israelites defeated a major army was that God told them to light like pots or something like that and surround their camp with it, and because they were on a hill, the big army saw the light and assumed that they had a big army so they retreated, yup that's a way of smiting those people isn't it.

As an english word it does not exist in the bible but as a doctrine it DOES EXIST in the bible. We've had enough of this roundabout attempt to pass off man's doctrine into the bible through the back door of heresy.

AND WHO DEFINED IT?? PUTTING AN END TO THE HERESIES??

Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

2 timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

HAHAHAH Well I gotta give you credit for trying. But you and I both know that those pasages do not say that scripture alone should be used, and well we know that scripture itself is sacred tradition because there were no reporters when the events took place. The books in the New Testament were written years after the death of Christ, and it was by sacred tradition that it was written down. Even Luke and Mark weren't apostles and they consulted others on the events that took place, and St. Paul did tell Timothy to hang on to what has been taught to us.
So when you can prove that scripture isn't sacred tradition, I would take you seriously.
But we both know you can't, because well it is based on the traditions of the apostles that we know certain things were done a certain way and it hasn't changed for 2000 years.

Where does it say we shld import extra-biblical heresy again?

Well we haven't used any extra-biblical heresy infact we've been the defenders of the Scripture, that's why when heretics questioned the divinity of Jesus we put an end to it by defining the Trinity dogma, so that you today can know the truth.

The cross is not the sign of christianity, the cross is merely a tool of Christ's death and eventual resurrection without which there is no salvation.
The cross was where Christ died, but without His resurrection from the sepulchre there would have been no blood to cleanse us from unrighteousness and no hope for eternal life. Do you also use the sepulchre for a sign of christianity?

Well we know that the cross isn't just merely a tool it is the way we live our life, because Jesus did say we should take up our cross and follow him, matthew 10:38 this was before he died on the cross by the way.
we also see it in matthew 16:24 that is the way of discipleship, we have to deny ourselves and take up our cross and follow Christ, so what differentiates us from everyone is that we follow Christ by taking up our crosses.

What does St. Paul say about the cross well he let's us know in 1 Corinthians 18 For the word of the cross, to them indeed that perish, is foolishness; but to them that are saved, that is, to us, it is the power of God

Galatians 2:19 For I, through the law, am dead to the law, that I may live to God: with Christ I am nailed to the cross

There are many many references on the cross and our life, so you see the cross is not a mere tool, it is our life.

You are a joke, do you know what the sepulchre is?

I said nothing of the sort . . . i asked a simple question - show me where the rosary is regarded as a prayer IN THE BIBLE. Christ taught the disciples to pray . . . where was His rosary?
Enough of roundabout heresy.

Don't lie, you stated above about it being a ritual, remember this

where are all these rituals in the bible?

And you wanna know where it is in the Bible, well here it is.

The Joyful Mysteries
1 The annunciation - Humility
Luke 1:30-31 Then the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. Behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name him Jesus.

2 The Visitation - Charity
Luke 1:41-42 Elizabeth filed with the holy Spirit, cried out in a loud voice and said, "Most blessed ae you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb

3 The Birth of Jesus - Love of God
Luke 2:6-7 While they were there, thee time came for her to have her child, and she gave birth to her firstborn son. She wrapped him in swaddling clothes and laid him in a manger, because there was no room for them in the inn.

Look there are more and it will take me too long to write them down, but do you have a problem with us reading the word of God and meditating on it? Because that's the prayer of he Rosary.
If you think that the Bible must state that a certain verse must be used in prayer before it can be used then you should use Psalm 23, but I know you know it, and no where is it written in the Bible that you should use it as a prayer.

Show me where this is encouraged by the early apostles please.

GLADLY!!!

Well there are too many Christian virtues, but let me just hint at the most known.
Starting with my favorite which is Love, and here's St. Paul on it: 1 Corintians 13

1 If I speak with the tongues of men, and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. 2 And if I should have prophecy and should know all mysteries, and all knowledge, and if I should have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
3 And if I should distribute all my goods to feed the poor, and if I should deliver my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
4 Charity is patient, is kind: charity envieth not, dealeth not perversely; is not puffed up;
5 Is not ambitious, seeketh not her own, is not provoked to anger, thinketh no evil;
6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth with the truth; 7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things. 8 Charity never falleth away: whether prophecies shall be made void, or tongues shall cease, or knowledge shall be destroyed. 9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, that which is in part shall be done away.

So you see, we are to strive for it.

Hebrews 10:36 on patience
36 For patience is necessary for you; that, doing the will of God, you may receive the promise

Romans 12:11 on diligence

In carefulness not slothful. In spirit fervent. Serving the Lord

Now are you sure you want me to continue, because if we are not supposed to practice virtue then what's the point of being a Christian, you live out virtues, that we learn from God. That tells people we're Christians. But I am so amazed that Bible believing David doesn't even know that virtue is needed.

Many people, especially those who falsely profess a gospel they do not follow, would do well to go back and dig their bibles before practicing rituals that are unbiblical

Many people will do well to actually practice what Christ teaches instead of running up and down their homes screaming shamaananamsdahakabajda THANK YOU JEEESUUUSS, YEEESSSS JEEEESUUUUSSSS, HOLY GHOST FIRE, HOLY GHOST FIRE, HOLY GHOST FIRE, I REBUKE YOU DEVIL, I REBUKE YOU DEVIL and they don't even what it is to be a Christian, they don't know what their faith is. They don't know what the cross is, they don't know what virtues are, yet the read the Bible and quote it left and right, and feel that if they memorize it and quote it to everyone they can deceive everyone to think that they know what they're talking about. They make themselves feel ver important and come to nairaland and profess themselves to be men of God.
Mister go and read the Bible, learn the mysteries of Christ, learn what Christ's cross means and what it means to take up the cross and follow Christ, learn please learn.
Then you can step up to me to speak on the matters of the Bible.

When we read instances where men bowed to other men, it helps to understand the context - it had nothing to do with worship (see 1 Chron. 21:21 as an example). Do not assume that references to men bowing to men is necessarily encouraging the practice of Mariolatry or Mary-graven-image-veneration.

WHOA!!! So you know this and yet you still don't understand? Did it ever occur to you that Mariolatry is exactly the same as what these men were doing. Did it ever occur to you the context in which Mariolatry is taken or is it because it's given a name that makes you eerie of it?
I mean why don't you know what it is before you become skeptical of it?
Because we give a special honour to Mary means we must worship her, did it ever occur to you that we honor God through his holy ones as is stated in the Bible?
Jesus himself honored God when he spoke of Abraham and Jacob and the patriarchs.

What is it about Mary that sends chills up your spine? Is it because she's a woman? Isn't Jesus a man, and if he's the New Adam won't that make Mary the New Eve or do you think God would leave women out of it. Does it make sense to you that he would create Adam and Eve, and then when both sins he makes a New Adam but leaves out the new Eve? So should we still be bound by Eve?
I mean wouldn't it make sense, that if God is taking things back to the way it was supposed to be that he would really take it back to the way it was supposed to be and not skip a part. If he skipped the new Eve part then his plan isn't complete.

Mary's statues are directly bowed to in veneration of Mary - hence Mariolatry

Veneration - the act of venerating or to venerate; venerate- to reverence

So please what is wrong with reverence. David leaped for joy in front of the ark of the covenant, when Uzzah touched it he died, so there must have been some high reverence of the ark of the covenant or else it would not have been held in such high regards.

And yet you know the Israelites were saved by looking to the serpent, I mean isn't that an image, infact isn't that a graven image? what is the difference between the image of the serpent and the image of the calf? what is the difference between the golden calf and the bronze serpent?

And by the way it's not Mariolatry. The veneration of Mary is not Mariolatry. That's the definition that non-catholics have chosen to call the veneration of Mary, but I haven't found a church document that calls it that. So please don't call it mariolatry.

The proper term is Mariology which is the study of Mary, it tries to show the relationship of Mary to Jesus with the use of Scripture and Church tradition.
So please use the proper term, thanks.

(1) And what about the fact that Mary has been ascribed the divine title meant for God alone? - the Glory of Israel?

You still haven't provided me with document, and I will research this more from the Bible and Church before I can answer you.
You may have missed some parts in the Bible, or may have taken things out of context, so until more info on this can be found there won't be an answer on it from me. Please show references, and make sure they are accessible.

What about the graven images of Mary that some Catholics bow down to? Or are they also not catholics

Oh yes that's right you've already convinced yourself that those are graven images and instead you don't see them as anything but, so it doesn't matter if I say we don't worship them as long as you've convinced yourself that those are graven images and you see people bow to them then that means it must be worshipped, what you failed to do is answer my question on the bronze serpent and the ark. why were images made out of gold and bronze held in high regards and even one of them contained the Word of God and the other one well it was the saviour of the Isrealites in the desert, so weren't those graven images too? And why were they permitted?
What's worse is that one was in the image of a serpent, how can a serpent be good here?

What about the fact that some Catholics pray to Mary? Is that a fact that could be denied as well?

Oh no not at all, infact I am actually doing a devotion to Mary, I'm sure at this point you think I am an idolator and that's fine and dandy.
Infact it is encouraged, because see a prayer is a petition and in the prayer you ask for help. What people don't realise is that when they say mummy pray for me they are praying to their mother also, for as long as they're petitioning they're praying so I guess we all should stop asking for help or petitioning.
But asking Mother Mary to pray for me or petitioning Mother Mary to petition for me or Praying to Mother Mary to pray for me is highly encouraged because her intercession is powerful. Who better than to reach the heart of a child than the mother. See people underestimate the bond between Mother and Child, the biggest mistake Non-Catholics make is expecting Jesus to not listen to his Mother, like do we expect him to dishonour her?
And no she is not just a random woman that was chosen she was planned from the beginning, because Christ too was planned from the beginning, God didn't decide later on to send his Son forth to the earth born of a woman, o no he let us know that enmity would be put between the woman and the serpent. The woman is very important here, and well we know that Mary had to be without sin because God can't dwell in sin.
So we do pray to Mary and we proudly say thank you to her for her help. We know the one person that Christ would never turn away would be his mother, she gave birth to him, nursed him, raised him, and a sword pierced her soul when she watched her Son die on the cross, she is the sorrowful mother, no child can look at his mother's sorrow and turn away from her.
Or do you think Christ would dishonour his mother by simply dismissing her and treating her like any regular person, if he would, he would dishonour her, and we know Christ isn't going to sin or go against himself, HE IS THE COMMANDMENT.  

Why is it that up until now, no Vatican "bull" has been released to disavow what the Bishops have called Mary - the Saviour of the people of Rome?

I believe she plays a role in our salvation, so I don't see what the problem there is. Or do you not believe she plays a role in our salvation? and if so why? please explain because I would think the woman who allowed God's will in her life, and humbled herself and accepted the vocation given her and carried out her duties to the glory of God, and gave birth to God, who is our savior had a role in our salvation.

It is easy to claim that no Catholic worships Mary; nor bows down to her or her graven images or statues; nor pray to Mary, etc. The fact is that simplistic assertions are not all there is in this matter - for we know that Catholics do so, and mere assertions do not erase the evidence

That's right you don't understand what worship and prayer is. Well anyway. I gave a nice litle write up above and would like for you to disprove it.

I also have more write ups and would put them now, because I have to be gone for a few days I have too much work so maybe this would keep you occupied.

ON MARY:::

Mary was "in the first instant of her conception, by the singular grace and privilege of the all-powerful God, in virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Savior of the human race, preserved from all stain of original sin."

This article of faith is founded upon Scripture and upon the constant Tradition of the Church. Since God Himself had announced from the beginning of the world that Mary was destined "to crush the head" of the infernal serpent through her Divine Son, she could not have begun her life by beng wounded herself by is poisonous bite and subject to his power. The Archagel Gabriel called her "full of grace" because she never was deprived of sanctifying grace, and consequently she possessed this grace n the first moment of her conception.

The Father and writers of the Church compare Mary to the ark of Noah which alone escaped the universal deluge; to the thornbush which Moses saw burning, but not consumed; to the enclosed garden to the rod of Aaron which, when laid in the ark, budded and blossomed witout having aken root; to the fleece of Gideon which remained dry while the ground all around it became moist with dew. They look upon Mary as the Queen who came from the Most High, perfect, beautiful, and without original sin; as the paradise of innocence which God Himself planted and protected against all the attacks of the poisonous serpent.

[b]Reason, too, approves of Mary's Immaculate Conception, for this privilege corresponds with her sublime vocation. She was the throne of God, the wonderful palace in which the Son of God chose to dwell for nine months. Her womb was the chosen place honored by the nysterious working of the Holy Spirit. If everyting that comes in contact with God must be pure and immaculate, purity was necessary for her, the vessel in which the Son of God formed His Flesh and Blood. Her Immculate Conception is a brilliant witness to the sanctity of Jesus, her Son.

If Jesus, the Son of God, could choose for is Mother her who pleased Him most, He would surely choose one acceptable to the Blessed Trinity and worthy of the great honor for which she was destined. Mary was, therefore not only fre from all actual sin, but she also remained exemt from original sin; otherwise, she would not have been a Mother suitable for Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

As Eve received natural life from Adam, Mary receives spiritual life, the life of grace through her Son. If Eve ws originally immaculae, Mary, who is superior to Eve in merits, could not be inferior to her in dignity. Since Eve was immaculate in her formation, Mary must have been immaculate in her conception.[/b]

{Immaculate means to be free from spot or stain, for those of you who don't know what it is}

Sinless cannot dwell in sinful, if Mary was sinful she would not have been Jesus' mother.

Please if any of the above cannot be true then address it, and then I would be back to reply. If you hold this to be true then I would continue with the other "misunderstandings of Mary"
But I would need an answer from you.

where are all these rituals in the bible?

Where is the word Trinity in the Bible?
Where does it say that you should go by scripture alone?

Is the cross not the sign of Christianity or is it of the devil now? If it is, does that mean that Jesus is of the devil?

The rosary and sign of the cross are not rituals stop lying. The rosary is a prayer, if I should stop does that mean the Bible states that I should stop praying?
The rosary is the prayer of the gospels as in you meditate on the lives of Jesus and Mary and you imitate the virtues learnt in a particular even in their life. Is that wrong? Are we supposed to practice virtue or not?

Maybe people should get educated on things before they open their mouths to speak. Instead of speaking out of ignorance.

Matthew7vs 1: Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to You. How do You know i am not a christian? You just concluded i am not a christian, don't You think You ve done something contrary to matthew 7 vs 1   wake up and be Christlike than shying away from the truth. may God forgive You.

hissss if I told you you are going to hell then I am judging you. I only told you that you should stop pretending to be what you are not. A christian would not want to cause strife just for the sake of it. SO please stop trying with your holy attitude, it is lost on me.
Please don't come quoting the Bible left and right, we all know the devil quoted the Bible to Jesus too, so dear try again, thanks.

They replied, "Some say John the Baptist, others Elijah, still others Jeremiah or one of the prophets."

He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?"

Simon Peter said in reply, "You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God."

Jesus said to him in reply, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood 12 has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father. (If Simon was wrong to ve told Jesus that he was the son of the living God, Jesus would have corrected him.

JESUS never sinned. He needed neither to repent (turn) from sin, nor to be forgiven of any sin,

Christians should follow the doctrines of the Bible above the doctrines of man.

How does this prove that Mary is not the Mother of God. You only spoke of his father. Is The Father the only parent of JESUS or did he just appear from heaven?
Did Mary give birth to him or not?
Is Jesus God or not?

he looks free from corruption.

Finally, the truth came out of davidylan

So you believe in the FATHER now, if there's a FATHER there would be a Son. Be careful not to stick your foot in your mouth while trying to say that someone has done the same. You're the one who did.

For the simple reason that man is not Deity.

Now you know why we don't worship Mary. She is not Deity.

If Jesus was "any other regular man", I could see your point. But is that what the Bible teaches?

exactly my point Jesus has the same body that man has, yet we don't bow to man, why?

Phew! I don't know how else to say this O. . .!! We have been through this same argument so many times now that it has been retired out of use! 

Look carefully: where was it ever taught that anyone was asked to bow to man in worship? Whether or not it is graven images, is there anywhere the Bible teaches that we were asked to bow down and worship man as a "graven image"? The injunction in the Bible is clear O!  He said do not make any graven images (Isaiah 42:8 -- "I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.) Well, where can we find the teaching in the Bible that man was made as a "graven image"?

So why not bow to a man, if man is not a graven image?

Where did God's Word teach that anyone was asked to bow down to those cherubims in the ark of covenant?

The cherubims were a part of the ark, the were mounted on top of the ark, yet everyone bowed before the ark of the covenant. Even David danced in front of it, note that the ark wasn't worshipped but the Lord's presence was in it, and they knew this. The ark was pure and could never be undefiled, even the statue god by one of the pagan countries, I can't remember the name right now was found prostrate before the Lord. The ark of the covenant was in no doubt held in high regards, and was widely protected by the Israelites. It was reverenced and venerated. The ark was no joke to them.

There is no way you can disagree with me that the ark of the covenant is holy and undefiled.

Why am I mentioning the ark of the covenant? Because Catholics believe that Mary is the ark of the covenant, she is the one who housed the Word of God just as the ark housed it in the Old Testament, she housed the bread of life come from heaven, the ark housed the bread come from heaven (manna), I mean there's so much more to it.
My favorite is that the ark of the covenant shows up in God's Temple in heaven but this time it's in the form of a woman. When St. John wrote down what he saw, he did not have chapters and verses, it just continued, so the ark that he saw was the woman, and she was giving birth to the messiah (Jesus) and we all know that Mary is the mother of Jesus, there is no other woman that could be the ark, no other woman that could represent the ark, Mary's title does not just include ark of the covenant but also mother of the Church, if the Church is supposed to be the body of Christ and Mary is the mother of Christ, certainly she would be our mother. But also because we are co-heirs to the throne as Christ is the heir to the throne and we are his brothers, well if Mary is his mother that would make her our mother too, and I do remember the commandment asking us to honor our mother and father.
In african culture we know very well that a way of showing respect is to bow before someone especially our mother and we kneel too when we greet, well at least in Edo and yoruba culture that's how it goes.

And then about her virginity to even think that Joseph would be so presumptious that he would touch the ark of the covenant is wrong, to even think that Mary who would bear the Word of God would be defiled is wrong. To think that God just doesn't care for who is worthy to be his mother is wrong. He prepared her and kept her from all stain, to even think that God would allow himself to dwell within a sinner, I mean seriously that's just ridiculous and blasphemous. Since when is God able to dwell within sin?

Even the statue  The bronze serpent is also an image what is the difference between the bronze serpent and the ark and the images or icons used by Catholics, aren't they made by man's hands, and aren't they from things of the earth.
Note please that bow down and worship are not the same thing, just because people bow down to someone does not mean that they are worshipping it.

What annoys me the most is the honor people give to their mother yet the Mother of Our Lord should just be pushed aside, since when?

I'm sorry and don't want you to assume that I'm being rude by asking questions instead of giving answers. I have shared on this same issues with answers from the Bible in the other catholic threads before; I never was able to make others see the point - and that is why instead of filling pages, I approach these issues by asking simple questions. This is so that my fellow discussants would do a bit of reflection themselves. If the Bible teaches what you assume, then please simply quote the verse where it states that anyone was commanded to bow down to the cherubims.

I don't assume you're being rude, I too am asking you questions so that you will give the answer to it yourself. Trust me you'll answer your questions.
Nope bow down was not a command and neither is it a command that we all bow down to Mary. Yet in bowing we show reverence, even people would reverence Peter, they took the sick to the street in hopes that Peter's shadow may fall on them, I believe this is in Acts of the Apostles.

That is true - thankfully, God has been faithful to help me worship neither of them. The question is that we should not be looking for excuses to continue in what we know violates His word.

I too am grateful to God for not permitting me to worship neither of them or anyone else, and that includes Mary. The point is reverencing God's faithful is not worship of them. Putting them above God is worship of them, but honoring them and asking for their prayers is not and praying with them is not.
Revelations lets us know that the prayers of the faithful are raised up to heaven, and St. Paul tells us that even death cannot separate us. So those who died in Christ are still part of the body of Christ, and being part of the body of Christ means exchangig gifts that we have, we cannot cut them off and say to them that we do not need them because we do, and St. Paul states that. The Bible itself states that these people cannot be separated from us yet Non-Catholics are saying that we have no connection to the dead. Well which one is it? Are we separated from them or not?

Wrong. God did not make Himself into a graven image when He walked the earth. The word used is is graven image - clear as it appears in Exodus 20:4 & 5 ~~


4Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: 5Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me.

Haa! na serious matter to mistranslate His word O!

What about the bronze serpent in the desert, through it God saved the people of Israel. Is that also idolatry? Don't forget that Jesus likened himself to the serpent, he said "Just as the Moses lifted up the serpent, so must the Son of Man"
What is the difference between the golden calf and the serpent, they were both made by man's hands and they were both graven images.

As above - (a) Jesus is not a "graven image"; second, (b) Jesus is Deity and not another man's flesh!

You still didn't answer the question of why not bow before man as you would before Jesus, they both have flesh, a man's flesh is not a graven image you've established that, so if it was 'graven image' as you vision it why not bow before man?

(c) I regret (yes, regret) that so many people who contacted me through email were Catholic friends; after severally challenging me to post the "evidence" (because they miscalculated my patience for a lack of evidence thereto), I obliged and posted only one - and the result? So many of them wrote back that they had left the Catholic faith. I am not bluffing - even a dear friend who himself goes by the username lawyer was quite puzzled and considered leaving Catholicism - which was my regret, because I had not intended to disturb or rattle his faith-foundations.

They didn't know it from the beginning. People like that remind me of those who decided to stop following Jesus when he told them they had to eat of his flesh and drink of his blood. I believe their response were 'what manner of man is this that would ask us to eat his flesh'
the message was not meant for them.

Hmm, okay I hear. We've been through that same idea and found it largely wanting. The apostles of Jesus Christ (whichever version of the Bible you might adhere to) were not Roman Catholics. So, please don't go there and assume things which have been retired out of circulation

Actually they were, the earliest record of the church being called Catholic was in 100 A.D. by St. Ignatius of Antioch and even at that time the term Catholic was nothing new, so if Ignatius studied under the apostles and he used the term and it wasn't coined by him, then I wonder who was it coined by, oh yes that's right the apostles. Please don't mistake Catholicism to be a denomination, it isn't. It is the universal Church, Catholic means universal, and the church isn't just Catholic, it is One, it is Holy, and it is Apostolic. You know just as Christ wanted it to be.
Please post such documents and reference them so they can be double checked. Mariology is not wrong and is still prevalent today in the Catholic church.

I'm Catholic. About 90% polish citizens are Catholics. But, in my opinion i don't need confession. Last time i confessed more than 5 years ago. Real, good Catholics should = must confess 1 per year. If You want, You can go to confession every days. For me, confession in useless b/c You tell ur sins not God, but human/priest.

People excommunicate themselves from the Church automatically when they decide to be against the Church's teaching, so are you sure you are Catholic? answer wisely.

Holy Mary Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of a our death. ) Did Jesus have made mentioned that his mother is the mother of God

Last time I checked Jesus is God, if Mary is Jesus' Mother what does that make her? Please abeg Mary did not give birth to Jesus the human and then Jesus the God joined in later. She gave birth to Jesus's nature both man and God. Jesus was never a man and then God, he is both man and God at the same time, so when she gave birth she gave birth to both man and God Jesus, you know the God-man.

To take away the title of Mother of God from Mary is to insinuate that Jesus is not both man and God, and you know very well that that is heretic.

All these praises goes to MARY , ("Teach us how to pray," the disciples said to Jesus. (Luke 11, 1) He answered by teaching them the prayer we call "the Our Father"  or "The Lord's Prayer." he didn't mention his mother's name in this prayer so why then does Catholic seems to worship the mother more than the Son who is sent by God almighty  The Lord's Prayer is a basic Christian prayer every Christian learns it by heart, It 's a prayer Christians treasure

And then after the Hail Holy Queen prayer comes: O God whose only begotten Son has purchased for us the rewards of eternal life, grant we beseech thee, that meditating upon the mysteries of the most Holy Rosary of the Blessed Virgin Mary we may imitate what they contain and obtain what they promise through the same Christ Our Lord. Amen.

Do you even know what the Rosary prayer consists of or do you think it's just a bunch of Hail Mary's, which isn't wrong by the way considering that the Hail Mary is the greeting given to Mary by angel Gabriel and Elizabeth the mother of John the Baptist. SO it's either the angel and Elizabeth were wrong or Catholics are wrong. So which one is it?

JESUS WOULD HAVE MADE US KNOW THAT THROUGH HIS MOTHER WE CAN GET TO GOD .

And he did let us know when he allowed her to use her powerful intercession at the wedding feast at Cana. Mary asked for wine and Jesus answered her and provided wine. She initiated his first act in his ministry, his first miracle.
The bond of Mother and Child can never be broken and by the way Catholics do not give Mary more reverence than Jesus. In honoring Mary we honor Jesus. He who fails to honor the Mother dishonors the Son.

It's also done in the open with other shrines and images of devotion ~-

What is the difference between falling down and bowing to Jesus the man and falling down and bowing to any other regular man?
Aren't both of them images, isn't man in the image of God?
Why did God permit the image of cherubims to be used for the ark of the covenant?

The first commandment forbids putting anything or anyone else in the position of God or above God.
So when you put money first you worship money, you can also worship sex even though sex is not an image.
God made himself an image when he walked the earth in human form.
So dear please what is the difference between the image of Jesus flesh and another man's flesh?

I don't think it's fair to assume that plappville was lying. We've been through this discussion before in the other thread where I demonstrated this very issue to show that Catholics (or should I say "some Catholics" actually worship the image of Mary. Infact, there are several places where this fact is decried by the many Catholic faithfuls with whom I had that discussion - a very heated debate infact - and at the end of the day when the facts were posted, it went all quiet with no counter claims to provide a contrary evidence. See the following:

Anyone who comes here and claims that they were once Catholics and that they do worship Mary while in the Catholic church is lying period. I know you still think that we do and we're telling you that we don't. Whether you view it as worshipping or not, no one goes to Mary and says that she is their God. So nope not one Catholic worships Mary.
If they do they are not Catholic period. So I did not make an assumption, I pointed out an obvious fact.

34. But let this holy city of Rome be the first to give the example, this city which from the earliest Christian era worshipped the heavenly mother, its patroness, with a special devotion. As all know, there are many sacred edifices here, in which she is proposed for the devotion of the Roman people; but the greatest without doubt is the Liberian Basilica, in which the mosaics of Our predecessor of pious memory, Sixtus III, still glisten, an outstanding monument to the Divine maternity of the Virgin Mary, and in which the "salvation of the Roman people" (Salus Populi Romani) benignly smiles. Thither especially let the suppliant citizens flock, and before that most sacred image let all put forth pious prayers, imploring especially that Rome, which is the principal city of the Catholic world, may also give the lead in Faith, in piety and in sanctity

That was in the terms of that time. If we lived back in the day or during that time the word worship would not have the same meaning as it does today. We know that words evolve in a language. SO just as it was applied to Mary it was applied to those who were in high authority. The problem is that people use the meanings of a word today to state the meaning of the word in the past. For example, the word Gay now refers homosexuals whereas if it were to have been used 100 years ago it would mean happy.
That is also the problem that people have when reading the Bible the use today's meaning to interpret a word used centuries ago. Words do evolve in a language and it moves along as cultures do.

So in today's word, THERE IS NOT A CATHOLIC THAT WORSHIPS MARY.

this passage is indeed what we need in our present day world, where everyone is chasing after riches by all means.
may God teach us contentment with what we have.

Amen. My Priest gave a touching homily and one thing that sttod out was that when we're comfortable we forget God. Europe and America are the perfect examples.

but i am not interested in ur catholic website.

Quite unfortunate for you!!! You would have learned a lot, and you have only shown you want strife. Don't come here perpetrating to be a Christian when you are not!!

Yes the catholics do worship the image of MARY, i was once a catholic member i know tings there i don't just say what i do not know

This statement shows you were never a Catholic, don't come here and lie.

As for Jesus' flesh, it's a are real food for He gives eternal life to all who believe in Him and that of a man it's an ordinary meat will be eaten by dust.

Really, but he was in the image of man, how come his human body can be worshipped and yet a man's human body cannot be worshipped?

Another question though, do you believe that the eucharist is the flesh of Jesus?

When the bible says confess ur sins to one another, this means when u sin against someone u go and confess to him or her by doing this God himself will forgive u ur sin, is not thesame as confessing to the pope, don't add or take away words from the bible.

Hahaha right!!!!

James 5:16 - James clearly teaches us that we must “confess our sins to one another,” not just privately to God. James 5:16 must be read in the context of James 5:14-15, which is referring to the healing power (both physical and spiritual) of the priests of the Church. Hence, when James says “therefore” in verse 16, he must be referring to the men he was writing about in verses 14 and 15 – these men are the ordained priests of the Church, to whom we must confess our sins

Acts 19:18 - many came to orally confess sins and divulge their sinful practices. Oral confession was the practice of the early Church just as it is today.

Matt. 3:6; Mark 1:5 - again, this shows people confessing their sins before others as an historical practice (here to John the Baptist). [Matt 3:6 and they were all baptized by him in the Jordan, confessing their sins; Mark 1:5 And all the country of Judea went out to him, and all the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and they were baptized by him in the river Jordan confessing their sins.]

Is that enough for you? People have been confessing their sins in public as was the practise in the beginning, today it is no longer that way, we confess in private.

Though chatolics may believe that God forgives sins, but they should also know that they sins should be confessed only to God and not man.
I think i am trying to know the bible by what i read in the bible and not what i hear from those false priste, pastors pope etc out there.

Well then you are certainly against what Jesus teaches, because he did send out his apostles and he did tell them, whomever receives you receives me, whomever rejects you rejects me. If we were all meant to read the Bible and get everything from it then there ws no need for the apostles, and if there was no need for the apostles there wouldn't be the Bible today.
People seriously think the Bible was written by Christ himself. Hun the Bible that you have was written and compiled y Catholics, whether you believe or not. The tradition we hang on to is the Bible. Because it came from the tradition handed down by the apostles.

Oh and as for Mary, I AM WILLING TO SCHOOL YOU ON HER ROLE IN OUR SALVATION.

Seriously I do not think you were a catholic you would have known better,  I once was and there was a popular song we used to sing about honouring Mary and not worshiping, did you ever sing that?

and if you were a good catholic you would have known about the when Jesus appeared to the apostles in the inner room and said peace be unto you, and something about people whose sins they forgive here on earth would be forgiven in heaven, remember?
Feels good to remember those days

hehehe you're funny. I'm glad you remember those days. I will continue to pray for you (don't tell me not to cause I won't listen to you)

It should not be my problem only but the problem of every true christian.
We should be worried about what we are doing to the name of Christ

Yes it is every Christians duty to make sure that their life is devoted to God.

My life is devoted totally to God

Are you sure about that? Stating it is one thing, but doing it is another. You can profess a faith you do not live out.
This is what you said dear

that is it
why do I only talk,act,sing and do every other thing like a christian when I am in the prescence of my pastor,priest or a christian brother and on sundays?

we all know it's true
be truthful to yourself.

If you are truly devoted to God, you won't be talking, singing, acting and doing things like a Christian only when you are in the presence of your pastor, priest, brother or on sundays. You would do it everyday and everywhere.

You already told us you are not devout by stating making the statement posted above, so to lie about it, is truly showing that you are not devout. Don't try to make yourself feel better by seeing who else is doing it along with you, don't ask us to be truthful to ourselves, because you are not even truthful to yourself.

I am truthful to myself, and I profess my faith everywhere I go, yes I even walk on campus praying the rosary for all to see, and I am not ashamed to do the sign of the cross even while standing at the intersection.
So dear just because you have that as your problem does not mean the rest of us do.

that is it
why do I only talk,act,sing and do every other thing like a christian when I am in the prescence of my pastor,priest or a christian brother and on sundays?

Then that is your problem. You need to start devoting your entire life to God.

Unfortunately your opinion does not direct God's commands, and thank God it doesn't. Because you would be excluding infants from the body of Christ. Christ also said that we should "Let the little ones come to him" if he asked us to do so, who are we to say that they shouldn't.

But to go into more details:

Baptism replaced circumcision.
Colossians 2:11-12 Paul stated that our baptism has become circumcision for us. We certainly know that infants were circumcised and very few adults underwent circumcision except the converts to judaism. so if Paul wanted to exclude infants from baptism he certainly wouldn't have used circumcision and likened it to baptism.

Anyway sir if you truly want to know the truth then you are welcome to ask questions but if you are here to bash, then I urge you cease and desist, because you will only get a headache, and you will be refuted tirelessly from us.

If truly you want to know about what we believe so that you can educatively discuss with us please visit this website first, learn our beliefs and why we believe it, and then come have a discussion with us on it.
But if you fail to do so, then know truly that you do not seek to spread the truth but to start strife.

http://www.scripturecatholic.com/

Everything is based on scripture in the Catholic Church. We say sacred tradition a lot, particularly because the Bible is Sacred tradition.

Happy ramadam everybody. I don't know if it's the proper way to say it, but you know what I mean. Enjoy it.