₦airaland Forum

GorkoSusaay:
I have told you that Gyanawa denotes descent from a common ancestor. All the Gyanawa descend from Muhammad Gyano [i.e. Gyanawa= sons of Gyano] who was himself a Jallubawa, the eldest of the four initial Fulani clans. You cannot be more Fulani than that.

Now, I'm tired arguing with you. Stop mentioning me please.
Believe what you will. Aminu Kano is Hausa, Murtala Mohamed is from Auchi and whatever.
Fare you well Lawani and Long live the Emir of Ilorin.

A town founded before Islam became popular can not be descended from a Muhammad Gyano. I now can see that you do not really know what you are saying or are you saying the name was changed?

GorkoSusaay:
That is not the answer to my question. Stop making things up. Gyanawa is a clan affiliation, not a demonym (Kanawa, Kebbawa...etc).
The Gyanawa fought on the side of the reformers in Eastern Kano under Mallam Bakatsine. They never identified as Hausa, or anything else. They are Gyanawa, because they are Jallubawa which is the eldest Fulani clan.

The jihad was successful because the Hausawa followed the Fulani Gida enmasse. If not, it would not have been successful. So that a clan fought alongside the reformers enmasse does not make them Fulani except that is the new definition of Fulani. The Gyanawa has been there when there were no Fulani Gida, thousands of years before the Fulani Gida emerged. Hausas and the Kanuri have been literate in Arabic for centuries. There have had Arabic scholars equivalents of Professors for centuries before the Fulani Gida emerged. So that the jihad was led by the Fulani Gida with the support of the nomads and the Hausa masses does not make the Gyanawa a Fulani people. the town has history going back to over one thousand years

And why would you suggest a Yoruba person is angry with or jealous of Fulani? if Hausas are not angry with Fulani, how can a Yoruba person? The Fulani are beneath the Yoruba in everything you want to mention, they have a lot of catching up to do. There are thousands of Fulani beggars in Yoruba land while poverty rate is high in Fulani controlled territory. The Yoruba are better off by a very wide margin, so it would be wrong to say a Yoruba is bitter against Fulanis who are beneath them in everything you want to highlight but I dont know what you meant by your statement. can you expantiate?

GorkoSusaay:
It is so obvious that you have no idea of what you are talking about. Quite sad to see people clutching to their passions, inner selves, when all evidence point to the other way. I, myself, would be called Gyanawa/Jallubawa if I was from Kano. Gyanawa/Jallubawa are the eldest of the Fulani clans.

You dont need to be going round in circles. Since the Fulani jihad succeeded after breaking out in 1804, there will be Gyanawa who would identify as Fula while the majority would identify as Hausa, in the past, all identified as Hausa. So you can not say a man is Fulani just because he is a Gyanawa. that is the answer to your question.

GorkoSusaay:
I knew it would be lost on you. I give up now.
So Emir Sanusi is not Fulani, because he is Sullubawa
Sultan Saad Abubakar is not Fulani, because he is Toronkawa.
Alaafin of Oyo is not Yoruba, he is an Oyo man lol

Better give up because you have no point.

GorkoSusaay:
My friend, you are a rumor-peddler. So you state an assumption without any evidence, and you ask for evidence of its falseness, is that it? I don't care if you believe in the Auchi story. Believe what you will. It does not make it true.

For Aminu Kano's parentage, here are some elements taken from Paden (1973), Religion and Political Culture in Kano. I'm not sure that it will convince you since you are hell-bent on believing whatever you want to believe, without any care for the truth.

Gyanawa is a settlement that was there when there were no town Fulani in Hausa land. Not even one. You must remember that the Fulani learnt Islam from the Yoruba, Hausa, Kanuri and etc after they started to become sedentary a few years back. So Gyanawa can not be Fulani in origin. Who then will remain as Hausas if all sedentary clans are appropriated as Fula by the Fulas? All successful people appropriated as Fula? It will not be right at all to say Gyanawa is Fulani in origin because the town was there when all Fulani were nomads.

GorkoSusaay:
Aminu Kano was not a champion of the "Hausa masses", he was a champion of the "talakawa" (commoners), which is not confined to a specific ethnicity.
So because Aminu Kano was a radical progressist, he cannot be "Fulani"?

Talakawa is another name for the Hausa masses which contains poor Fulani as well. The town Fulani are afterall indistinguishable from the Hausa and the majority are poor people or talakawa. They are part of the Hausa masses. In Yoruba, it is called Mekunnu. I am not saying he can not be Fulani, I am saying you should provide proof. I am saying this because he was against the Fulani establishment throughout his political career. It was because of him that the UPN won in Kano

GorkoSusaay:
Why do you say that Aminu Kano is not Fulani, when he's a member of the Gyanawa Clan?
Why do you say that Murtala Mohammed is from Auchi when his grandfather Sulaiman was the Alkalin Kano at the beginning of the 20th century?

I'm very curious.

People say Muritala Mohammed was originally from Auchi but if you can show me his brothers from thesame mother and father who are Kanawa without any attachment to Auchi, then I will stop believing the Auchi story. There is no reason why Auchi people should say a man from Kano is an Auchi man unless they see reason to say so. Thesame goes for President Babangida, Dr Olusola Saraki and etc. Brothers and sisters who are Fulani, then i will believe them. We all know Aminu Kano as a champion of the Hausa masses who identified as Hausa and was against the Fulani establishment. So if you want me to believe what you are saying, you have to bring the evidence

GorkoSusaay:
You see what denial, ignorance and frustration does to a brain?
And then they want to discuss rationally when they are all full of passion

You are a fool my dear. I am a Yoruba man from Ilesa. What do you mean by denial, ignorance and frustration? Have we met? Why do you think I am denied, ignorant or frustrated?

GorkoSusaay:
So because Aminu Kano called for the abolition of the Sokoto Caliphate, he cannot be Fulani? Is that it?
Baabaaliyo, please come talk to this man

We know Aminu Kano as a champion of the Hausa masses and Sir Ahmadu Bello as a Fulani supremacist. So it will be interesting to realise that Aminu kano is a Fulani as well. i will indeed be pleasantly surprised. So furnish me with the info I requested. There was an Emir of Kano, the grandfather of the present one or so, who wanted to wanted to one way or the other relax the hold of the Fulani on the Hausa, he was dethroned. So please furnish me with conclusive evidence that Aminu Kano was Fula, it will only make my respect for him increase. The man must have patrilineal relatives who are still Fulani, if he does not, then i do not accept your proposal that he was Fula

VomeSchakleton:
Lol! Arguing that aminu kano is not Fulani is quite ridiculous little small fry. Also, kwankwaso is fula, he said so himself, I don't know the mad man who told you he's Yoruba. It seems you don't understand the meaning of this bakane you keep throwing around. Stop trying to claim to know the ethnicity of our people more than us. It seems this whole thread was created by a Yoruba person, what you seek to accomplish I don't know.

A Kano man said Kwankwanso is from the Kano quarters reserved for Yoruba settlers. That is enough for me. Even Saraki in Ilorin at one time claimed to be Fulani. To me, Kwankwanso is a Bakane of Yoruba descent because of his primary constituency in Kano, regardless of his public statements. I have told you the info I need to believe Aminu Kano is Fula, if you can not provide it, then he remains Hausa as he self identified.


The Yoruba do not get involved in Hausa Fulani collabo. So I doubt if a Yoruba person is the OP. I only responded to the Ilorin comment and then the Aminu Kano origin comment.

GorkoSusaay:
Baseless and senseless post.
Murtala Mohamed is Hausa. From the patrician families of Kano.
Aminu Kano, the radical, is Fulani.

Aminu Kano called for the abolition of the Sokoto caliphate. So I wonder what you mean by saying he is Fulani. We know many gentlemen who are Fulani like Alhaji Shagari, Dangiwa Umar and etc and we know thugs like PMB but unless you can bring proof that Aminu Kano is Fulani, he remains Hausa as he identified himself. His mother however maybe related to Fulani. The proof I need is his father's name, clan, his other brothers by thesame father, his paternal Uncles and their descendants, if you can not produce those info, then leave the man as Hausa as he identified himself.

Then Muritala Mohammed is a Bakane of Auchi descent just like Kwakwanso is a Bakane of Yoruba descent. An Ijaw woman in Ile Ife told me Nnamdi Azikiwe was Ijaw who left with an Igbo person at a young age and etc. You find that such stories are true if you dig deeper.

I did not invent anything. The Mecca story, Lamurudu story and Waddai story were passed down and I am not the first Yoruba person to say that Lamurudu is the Nimrod mentioned by Josephus and etc. People have been saying it since the 19th century. It is a known fact that Oduduwa started a new dynast 51 Kings ago in Ile Ife when he was appointed Olofin aye. A new dynasty started in Benin like 40 Kings ago by crowning a descendant of Oduduwa. I believe they did this cos the earlier Ogisos also came from Ife. Owu and Ijebu married Ife princesses.

CivilzedTyger:
... Then what are you saying?

That people should not give in to inferiority complex. I will add that to the body of the post.

KingSango:
There's no evidence that Oduduwa was from Mecca but plenty suggesting the Yorubas had an East African origin. Which all the royal houses of Africa loved to claim their lineage from Kush, which is the house of Queen Shebah. This is per Dr. Diop. Oyo Royal family which is the bloodline of Oduduwa became Muslim to stop the onslaught of Islam. They only wear Islam as a mask but they really practice ATR. This is well known. Some consider it a contradiction but it isn't. The Africans in West Africa are revolutionary Muslims not Orthodox.

Which oral account passed down by our ancestors mentioned Kush or East Africa? Ethiopia and etc?. The Yoruba came from Ile Ife and Ile Ife is the source of all of humanity! Anybody can be made Oba in Ife or any Yoruba city, if Olodumare so directs, that was how a Wadai man and a Meccan became Obas in Yoruba land. It was by the guidance of Olodumare. If today Ifa says a German should be made Oba at Ilesa, that man will be made Oba but it does not mean the Ijesas came from Germany. The Ijesas originated from Ile Ife.

GorkoSusaay:
"You" will take over Ilorin. Being said since 1826. Pray who will lead you? The Alaafin or the Ooni?

There will be an Oba of Ilorin. The problem is that Ajikobi wants it and Afonja wants it. So we give it to the two of them. Toss a coin to see who goes first, then be rotating it. The present Emir is not a Fulani descendant but Hausa as the name implies. The Balogun Fulani is the head of the Fulani descent. His name is Alhaji Oba or so but Ilorin was put under Britain by Ajikobi's signature while the last real King was Oba Moma who committed suicide in 1895. How would you feel like to be the one who signed the British protection agreement and be excluded from the paramount stool? That is how Balogun Ajikobi feels. Please support him to recover his stool. I beg you. How would you feel like if your great grandfather who was Oba Moma blew himself up in his palace because his Baloguns frustrated his move to make peace with Ibadan and Britain, then after the death of your great Granddad, Ilorin went forward to come under thesame British protection but signed by Balogun Ajikobi. That is how the Afonjas feel like. I urge you to support them to take what rightfully belongs to them. If you were the one, I would support you to. Please start a blog urging the kwara government to give the stool to Afonja and Ajikobi to be rotating between them. Afonja was an Oyo prince as was Ajikobi. I believe you will support the venture and if you can not, you will keep quiet. Mind you, the current Emir of Ilorin is not a Fulani descendant.

raumdeuter:
WAEC registration figures might not be a very good population indicator as many who start primary 1 in the North less than 40% of them would make it to SS3

While in the South it might be over 75%

I agree with the overall message we need to break this shit up

The figures for the NW are low because of that hence Kano had 66000 registrants when Oyo and Ogun had around 77,000 each but my estimates were for the SW using the widely agreed upon 20 million figure for Lagos. If I want to estimate for Almajiri regions, I may make a correction by upping the figures by at least 25 percent. Kano will be the main beneficiary of that but I believe my estimates are ok for the SW though we have people who did not make it to O level as well. I know many.

macof:
ok

when you realize Nimrod is nothing but a myth give me a mention please.

Even if a myth, it was a myth well known to the man who came from Mecca and was renamed Oduduwa and crowned Olofin Aye in Ife. Josephus knew Nimrod, Nebuchadnezzar must have too and etc. So the Meccan who was made Olofin Aye in Ile Ife was also aware of the myth. So he instructed the Yoruba to pass down the name to their descendants.

If someone had come from Europe and mentioned Charlemagne rendering it as Shalemani or so, you would still say it is a myth?

Outside abusing people, calling people names and being angry about corruption, you should also be able to articulate why Europe works and Nigeria does not, at least after the fall of Rome, Europe descended into backwardness, very little if any organisation existed anywhere in Europe while wars were very frequent, Viking raids here and there. it was a permanent breakdown of law and order. All that time, West Africa was well organised, prosperous and secure with Oyo, Mali, Ijesa, Kanem Bornu, Ijebu,the Hausa states, Benin and etc in walled cities and high organisation, nations with huge armies, the contemporary of Rome in Nigeria was what we know as the Nok culture that disappeared in much thesame way as Rome did but they had no written records. The only well organised place in Europe back then was Moor held Andalusia who were contemporaries of the Malians, both had Universities, there were Moors in mali and malians in Andalusia. Infact, the famous Malian scholar, Ahmed Baba Al Sudan was once exiled to Morocco on a charge bordering on heresy. The Yoruba knew the Malians as Male and called Islam esin Male meaning the religion of Mali. it seemed odd to the Yoruba and they never accepted the religion but they allowed resident Malians and Arabs in Yoruba cities to build Mosques there. the Hausa also called Islam Addini Male meaning thesame thing. The Malians were never strong enough to conquer the rest of West Africa and the Yoruba had the largest cities back then. The malians were contemporaries of the Moors who held the best organised part of Europe during the Middle ages.

So, when Europe was in turmoil a while ago, West Africa was a paradise by comparison and that is just some centuries ago. So when you are abusing people who are west African leaders, also take time to think on why Africa is upside down while Europe is well organised in the 21st century, you should be able to come up with a sensible reason outside corruption. UNLESS YOU THINK WEST AFRICANS ARE SUB HUMAN. The Boko Haram came up with a reason that is somewhat academic, come up with one yourself that is divorced from abusing people and accusing them of corruption. that will show that you are really concerned and are thinking at least as much as Boko Haram.

I am not saying the leaders are perfect, they are not and they have not done enough too and i am not saying there is no corruption, neither am I saying corruption should not be fought to a standstill.

That people should not give in to inferiority complex is what I am trying to say in this post because when you do that you are already finished before you start

Since the Yoruba language arrived in West Africa, it upstaged others. That language was the language of the Ife Ibinu now known as Benin which was used throughout the empire that was an Ife successor empire no different from Ijesa, Oyo, Ijebu and etc. The closest languages to the language of the Benin empire would be Ilaje and Itsekiri in my opinion but nowadays the capital of the old Benin empire now speaks an Edoid language. That is their dilemma. We Yorubas also had old Akokoid languages totally different from what we now speak but we have all adopted Yoruba. If the Benin empire had lasted for long enough, all of the empire today up to Ogba land, Onitsha and etc would have been Yoruboid speakers.


So the Benin of the past was Yoruboid while today is Edoid. They are not really thesame. If a people are representative of the Benin empire in language and culture, those will be the Ilaje and Itsekiri and other Eastern Yoruba not the indigenes of Benin city. There was an Edoid empire that predated the Yoruba one of Benin, that one was named Igodomigodo and would have used a proto Edoid language while earlier Ife people used proto Akokoid.

The Edoid people in Benin want to claim the Benin empire but that empire was Yoruba and not Edoid, the founders of that empire would not have been saying they are not from Ife as the benin now say.

LadyExcellency:
Your WAEC Stats is not applicable to population estimate.
Fulani herds-children don't register for WAEC and they are estimated to be 35,000,000

Kano State is 150% of Kaduna State in population.
Why Kaduna instead of Kano State?

Use your derivatives to arrive at the current population of each Nigerian State.

Kano had 66000 registrants while Kaduna had over 100000. Both states have Almajiri and Almajiris are different from Fulani nomads. Then even in Yoruba land there are people who did not sit for WAEC, I have met a number of them. I believe Kaduna is more than Kano in population. if 30 percent of Children in Kano are Almajiri and we make allowance for that, then their registrants should have been 94000. Still less than Kaduna and Kaduna also have Almajiri. So anyhow you look at it, Kaduna is more than Kano.


Then why do you think the WAEC figures are not a good enough population indicator?

I have the raw data of the number of students that registered for WAEC in each Nigerian state in 2014 and unlike most data being bandied about in Nigeria, that WAEC data is reliable.


The data shows that Lagos population is 36 percent of the rest of the Southwest, it also shows that the Yoruba areas of the Northcentral is up to 30 percent of Lagos population. I am using Lagos as a template because even the UN agrees that the population of Lagos is around 20 million people, so we can work with that. In 2014, the total number of SW WAEC registrants was 403367, Lagos was 146564 out of it. Kogi was 43015, Kwara 33645 and Niger like 55000. Inside all that, the Yoruba areas will be close to 50,000 in total making up more than 30 percent of the Lagos number.


So, the implication is that if Lagos is 20 million people in population as alleged, then the rest of the SW will be around 55 million and the Yoruba areas of the North Central will be like 7 million in population, totaling 82 million including Fon and Bariba areas.

The figures I used to arrive at the estimates are real WAEC figures and then a 20 million population figure was used for Lagos and from the Lagos figure as basis, I estimated figures for other states. For example, next state after Lagos is Kaduna with 100,362 students, showing that Lagos population is around 140 percent of Kaduna's which is second in Nigeria.

So armed with that estimate, one can say the Yoruba area of Nigeria is at least 80 million in population if Lagos is 20 million. Lagos is the most cosmopolitan of the cities and even that Lagos is over 60 percent Yoruba in population, I know this for a fact because I work in Multichoice and I write down the names of people who come to subscribe. So I can say metropolitan Lagos is at least 65 percent Yoruba people. Rural Lagos will be more. The remaining percentage will be shared between Igbos, Hausas, Benin, Calabar and etc, then non Africans. The two main groups being Igbos and Hausas and their population can be assumed equal while other Nigerians in Lagos may be like one quarter of the combined population of Igbos and Hausas in Lagos. I am not certain though. In other parts of the SW, we have a high number of Urhobo, Bariba, Ebira. The Urhobos farm palm oil plantations and they are established in many places like natives, the Ebira in Ekiti, Ondo, Osun, Oyo are natives and substantial in number as are the Bariba in Oyo and Kwara, then a large number of Bariba are doing security work in the SW on a part time basis. People do trust them with that. In the SW, it is often either you use the Bariba or the OPC for security. So in some instances it may be possible for these people to outnumber Igbos or Hausas in some communities.

So inside the 80 million people in Yoruba land, not more than 20 percent in total are Igbos and Hausas, probably ten to fifteen percent. If we use 15 percent, that will be like 12 million people which is a huge number and a large percentage of them are established here, they will never leave here, no matter what, were born here and are natural citizens.

Then we have Yoruba in other places. In Port Harcourt, Onitsha, Kaduna, Kano, Jos, Maiduguri, Katsina, Calabar, Enugu, Aba and etc. An Arab man from Maiduguri who sells livestock in Kara market once told me that the Yoruba outnumber Igbos in Maiduguri. I also believe Yoruba outnumber Igbos in Kaduna because I know many Yoruba who are party chairmen and political appointees in Kaduna. In the North generally, I believe Yoruba outnumber Igbos. The Muslims intermarry and mix freely with the Hausa and in places like Katsina and etc, many families are inlaws to the Yoruba. There are many quarters in Northern cities descended from Yoruba settlers, one person said to be descended from such a quarters in Kano is former Governor Kwankwanso. There is also Amos Adamu who is said to be from Ogbomosho originally, even President Babangida said to be from thesame place originally and etc. So anyhow you look at it, the Yoruba will outnumber Igbos in the North. Then the Yoruba in the South South and South east are in their millions, so add everything together and you might find that 12 million Igbos and Hausas are in Yoruba land while more Yorubas are in Hausa land and Igbo land consisting of pre Nigeria settlers and post Nigeria settlers. All still have the identities.

So people should sit up and break up the country for them to form new nations that will be militarized and well policed. Your people will no longer be killed anyhow since you will have your own army and police and territory under your control. Do not take what you have for granted. You have a homeland, go there, defend, secure it and make it prosperous. The Jews know what they went through before having a place to call home. If you do not value yours by making it sovereign and developing it, you may yet lose it.

May God assist us all.





REFERENCE




http://worldpopulationreview.com/wo...

You are the joker because you have brought links to show that Nimrod was a great man known to South Arabians in the past, proving clearly that someone coming from Mecca in the 7th century, a well read Royalty will revere him and would mention his name to people which Oduduwa did. My own link had references, so you can check those references. Many cities were named after Nimrod. The Jews were anti Nimrod but Nimrod was not fighting against the real God but against the bad God who flooded the Earth. You may call him pagan, idolator and etc but he knew God too, the objective God and not the sadist God. Jewish sources report him as bad but the Epic of Sumer speaks glowingly of him. He is also known as Gilgamesh.


So to my own understanding, that was the man mentioned to our ancestors by Oduduwa whom they made Olofin Aye at Ife.

The original character lived 5000 years ago, while his descendant who was renamed Oduduwa lived around 1500 years ago or 7th century AD.

This Nimrod link on wikipedia is something you could have gotten by yourself. It shows clearly that Nimrod was the hero of those who lived before Christianity and Islam in South Arabia

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nimrod

macof:
whether quran mentions Nimrod or not. . that name is known in the Islamic world and rendered in Arabic as "Namrud" from where "Lamurudu" was derived....so it goes back to Yoruba Muslims

Pls just provide the evidence that pre muhammad Arab kings were descendants of Nimrod
in fact provide evidence Nimrod ever existed as a real man

do that and let's go back to the topic of the thread - Sango

It seems you will never understand that Nimrod is not a name known to anyone studying the Quran to any length. The name is in South Arabian history, in the epic of Sumer and other pre Islamic and pre Christian writings. You have no evidence, Abraham, Jesus, Moses, David, Solomon, Orunmila or Oduduwa ever existed but you use your common sense to know they existed. So it is with Nimrod or Lamurudu.


Nimrod according to the epic of Sumer was the first King of post flood Sumeria. In the Bible, he was described as a great hunter before Jehovah and in the epic of Sumer, he was said to have with the help of his half man half centaur friend hunted down the God Huwawa who flooded the Earth and killed that God. The language of Sumeria was known in South Arabia until the 10th century AD before it disappeared.

Nimrod was not mentioned in the Quran even once. Can you quote where he was mentioned? So no chance of getting the name from Muslims. You can only get it from a South Arabian royalty.

When I was in Ilesa Grammar school in the 90s, we were taught that Lamurudu was the father of Oduduwa.

There is nothing special at all in Ife. A man was left there titled Ooni with the sole duty of coordinating the upkeep of the tradition of the first terrestrial civilization on Earth from when land rose above the waters. The story is kept in anthems and stories passed down from the very beginning to explain the origin of humans on Earth. Nothing more. I am a descendant of Ogun Ajero and it was my ancestors that left those people in Ife to be reciting anthems and tales for the purpose of keeping history. Nothing more than that.

macof:
he dropped the name... were you there?
yet no yoruba traditional institution knows that name

it had to take Johnson, a man not grounded in Yoruba traditions and Muslims to speak of Lamurudu.
how come Ile-ife don't have a place for Lamurudu?

going to the Arabs. .. Arabs never saw themselves as descended from Nimrod

Stop believing everything you read

Pre Mohammedan Arab monarchs saw themselves as descended from the Nimrod that was mentioned in the Bible, present day Arab monarchs who are Muslims do not. You need to read more and form informed opinions. Research who Nimrod was in South Arabian history before Mohammed came to usurp his position. You dont need to tell me to stop believing everything I read because I dont. I have a brain to analyse things and I dont just take everything hook, line and sinker. In schools, children are taught that Lamurudu is the father of Oduduwa, so Rev Johnson did not manufacture the name out of thin air. It was passed down.

You dont have a place for Lamurudu because the man never came to Ife, he was not a Yoruba man. I have never heard his name mentioned in Ifa. The name was merely dropped by the Meccan monarch who came from South Arabia. Ife is not the final authourity on anything. Their job is to keep the history they were left there to keep. It does not make them all knowing.

Were you there too? Your question is childish sir.

9jacrip:
The Mecca story has been thrown in the garbage of history for a long time. Many things are wrong with the theory and the periodization do not even coincide. The Arabs, known to be ardent record keeper have no history as such in their history - it is like the bibilical tale of Egyptian enslavement of the Jews & the peninsula crossing. Awujale's claim holds no water, that has also been thrown in the bin of serious history - Ijebus & Shagamu left Ife, their street is still at Ogboni land in Ife this very moment.

The tale of Oranmiyan facing north was Oyo/Johnson creation, we do not have that story in Ife sir.

Yes, incarnation is very important but nobody incarnates with their names. Orisa can possess someone with qualities of the Orisa like you rightly said.

The person worshipped in Ifon in Osun state is Ifon himself, Obatala's first son born to him by his wife Oje.

51 Kings away can coincide with 7th century at just over 30 years per King and there is no other way to explain the Lamurudu account. that name is not even an orisa. it is just a name dropped as a form of id.

Imado i ba sebi elede a ba ilu je. Bi eru ba joba, eniyan o ni ku ikan soso. If a baboon tries to behave like a pig, there will be a problem, and if a slave is made King or Oba, there will not be a single soul remaining in the Kingdom. There is an interesting story behind the proverb which I can not remember now. The message is that people are cut for different roles, so, there are people who are supposed to be taking orders and to be carefully managed, these are by character, slaves and if you place such people in a position of responsibility or authourity, then the result will be that everything will be messed up and everybody will suffer for it. That is the situation Nigeria is in today with PMB. What a PMB Presidency will achieve is the breakup of Nigeria which in itself is long overdue. It is what is needed in West Africa right now.

President Buhari is clearly incompetent from just looking at his records. He is like the slave made King in that proverb and neither is President Jonathan any better, being the first Nigerian President to be accused by no less than Henry Okah of MEND, his own kinsman from thesame Bayelsa state, who should have been his biggest supporter, of masterminding, not one, but a few bomb blasts in which innocent folks, breadwinners of their families were killed. So where do we go from here?

The solution remains 'Breakup the country into manageable units where interests can be properly alligned. Maybe then a President Jonathan of Ijaw will then be bombing innocent Ijaws from time to time to get a high or a President Buhari of Fulani will be executing people with a retroactive decree, cancelling already paid for infrastructure project or ordering the massacre by soldiers of hundreds of unarmed and defenseless citizens or not will then be the local problem of Ijaw or Fulani and not something 180 million West Africans will have to live under or worry about.



However, the fact remains that both President Jonathan and President Buhari are basically nonentities that would not have amounted to anything in a normal surveillance society, in well run societies like we have in North America and Europe, they could not have been thrown up for leadership at all and if by an error of commission or omission, they became head, then they would have been assassinated soon after.


So, let the country Nigeria break up peacefully, so that every group can go and reorganise themselves to achieve prosperity for their people.


I must however add that the quintessential example on the globe today of a slave putting on the garb of royalty, an empty headed and demon possessed slave totally bereft of common sense, empathy and the like, totally incapable of balanced reasoning. The person whom Esu has cursed is no other than the biggest Pastor in Nigeria and the biggest Pentecostal Pastor in the world, the Pastor E A Adeboye of the Redeemed Christian Church of God.

I will use the Yoruba as an example because I am a Yoruba person but actually, the old system of government used across the globe was basically thesame. It is what is called monarchy apart from some communities like the Nri Igbos in Nigeria that did not fully have such an institution in the past. The Nri had the Eze Nri but that Eze had no power more than to appeal to people. The Eze Nri was essentially a priest while Nri villages had no Eze in the real sense of it. They structured their communities to need no Ezes with populations never exceeding between one thousand and two thousand, whenever a communal decision is to be made, all the men who were family heads would gather at the village square to argue it out and the person with the best way forward will carry the day. No King required. Wars were rare, so the society was peaceful for centuries is why they developed the caste system where some people are designated as outcasts. If they were living in huge cities under a constant threat of attack from enemies, having been burnt down a couple of times, they would not be able to afford the luxury of stratifying the society into castes. Same, I believe applies for India. My take on the caste system is, 'if people dont want to marry you, then you should not want to marry them as well. Marry others'. With a history full of war and turbulence, a nation will not be able to afford the luxury of being stratified into castes.


Back to the old system of governance as against the now popular one of democracy with universal adult sufferage and
periodic elections. The old system among the Yoruba is that the Ogboni ruled, the Ogboni is a society of which all free men are members and there is an Ogboni council in all Yoruba towns and cities. The Ogboni is an assembly of free men, in the past, only slaves were barred from being Ogboni members. So the Ogboni owned everything. In an Ogboni assembly, there is no opposition party and their motto is a solemn prayer that anyone that does evil or is unfair to another human being among them must not prosper followed by a solemn Ase. So in an Ogboni assembly, if you suggest something and someone points out to you that it is unfair to somebody, you have to drop it immediately to avoid the Ogboni curse attached to doing evil. For example, if you suggested socialism as an economic model, someone will point out to you that such a policy is unfair to someone who saved money to start a business but the Ogboni will support the eradication of poverty which is unfair to no one and okay by all except of course people like Pastor Adeboye of the
RCCG and similarly minded oligarchs who foolishly think they have something to gain if millions are kept in misery.


So the old system of the Yoruba was that the Ogboni will approve somebody to be CEO of the nation which is termed Oba. To the Ogboni, the Oba is like a domestic servant who can be removed at any time. So to call for an election periodically would have sounded foolish to our ancestors. Why waste money on such an exercise when you can just remove the Oba? The Ogboni are able to remove an Oba by asking him or her to go on exile, commit suicide and etc depending on the gravity of misdemeanour. There were instances in the past when A was removed unceremoniously, replaced with B, B was later compelled to commit suicide and A re employed as happened with Alaafin Sango and his brother in Oyo. Such also happened in all the Yoruba nation states in the past.


So, the so called monarch of the past was a worker who can be dismissed at anytime. The ruling body in any Yoruba nation state of the past was the Ogboni, a society founded on truth, fairness and a sense of responsibility towards others. In a Yoruba city, if two people are caught fighting physically instead of sorting things out amicably, they will be arrested and will have to pay a heavy fine to the Ogboni society.


So it can be seen that the old system if managed properly is way better than democracy, more cost effective and more efficient. However, rather than making the position of CEO known as Oba by the Yoruba a hereditary position, it should have been made open to all.


There may be some advantages in universal adult suffrage democracy. Some nations have even made voting compulsory for all adults who are of age regardless of their level of reasoning, self comportment and etc, all in a bid to make the process open and as all inclusive as possible but we can all agree that employing people and keeping an eye on them while being able to dismiss them at any time is more advanced than changing overlords every four years.

9jacrip:
Your first line is brilliant sir (I am in no position to dissect your input but permit me to say that).

- Sir, Obatala isn't good government. He was mainly known for Bleep ups (Baba forgive me o!) despite being placed at the fore front of things. - creation story and Ife political history. His administration was bad that Oduduwa mutinied him with relative ease and consolidated upon it.

- What Odu is Odu of Obatala, please share. I know with 99.9% confidence that Obatala's Odu was Eji-Ogbe (many other Odus mentioned Obatala but Eji Ogbe was much more). In this Odu, apart from emphasizing the role of head/leadership (Obatala) there was no mention of Baba being female. How do I know this? Because the Odu that birthed me in Igbo Odu is Eji Ogbe.

- In a particular Odu explaining earth to be Igba-Iwa, Oduduwa was Husband and Obatala was wife. In another Odu explaining the birth of some other deities, Obatala was Husband and Oduduwa was Wife.

- I do not know how Oduduwa is worshipped anywhere else but in Ife such is not the case.

- You actually believe in the story of Lamurudu & Mecca when Oduduwa's settlement and relics are at Oke-Ora in Ife where coronation is done?

- Thank you for sharing knowledge on the Sango name, I've been pondering the meaning abd were it came from.

- Oduduwa is a major Orisa that has its day of the week known by the Isooro Oduduwa. His background and followership is extremely limited to family followership so much that non-family cannot be initiated into it. The circle is tight and little is revealed about him to non-members. Some Orisas are at the fore front of the day of the week like you said but other deities are grouped along each Orisa.

- I don't know about Obatala vs Odudwa being 'created' but verifiable facts abound to prove it indeed happened. These can be found in how Ile- Ife (not Ife) itself is divided, it isfound in the relics in Ooni's palace, it is found in the materials left behind by Obatala in his Iranje Oko palace at Igbo Ogbe, it is found in the history of Ilaje/Mahin in Ondo, it is found in the history of Idanre, it is found in the installation of the Ooni, it is found in the enmity between families in Ife. I don't know what you kean by 'created' sir.

Incarnation is very important in Yoruba. There was Obatala of Ifon Osun, Obatala of Iranje and etc. So I believe there was an Obatala incarnate in Ife when the Oduduwa arrived. The man was recognised as Obatala just like a certain Esu was Alaketu, an Ajero was Ogun and etc but to say everything started only 51 Kings ago would be very wrong.


Why I believe Oduduwa came from Mecca is because the history says Mecca, Awujale history says Waddai, then Mecca is corroborated by the name Lamurudu which apparently was dropped by the Meccan himself as a form of id. Pre Mohammedan South Arabian monarchs identified as descendants of Nimrod, the way the Yoruba today identify as children of Oduduwa. The Lamurudu story is a concrete bit of evidence. Then there are other stories in Ife of Oranyan facing North with an army of invasion headed to cross the Niger towards Mecca. The Bariba massed against him and he camped there to establish Oyo

9jacrip:
Egbon mi, sleep don come but let me attempt a reply, I hope I am able to make sense with whatever I scribble.

Ifa contains spiritual tales (for spiritual purposes), Myth (for story purposes) & actual history with existing evidences recorded for history purposes. Everything woven together makes Ifa sturdy for divination yet fluid as an encyclopedia for general knowledge.

Although, I do not know who owns a deity's name first - the spiritual figure, the mythical figure or human figure? I am yet to unravel this part and this will go a long way in understanding a lot of things.

First Obatala in Ifa was a man, Oduduwa's brother that was robbed. Who was suppose to create the world; he who created people but messed both up from alcohol intoxication.

Along the line, in order to explain how the word is a calabash, Obatala became the woman - wife and Oduduwa became the man - husband. Oduduwa the first half of the calabash then Obatala the second half. Which makes it the second Obatala in Ifa.

The third Obatala was the man, Oseremagbo. Obamakin's big brother. The owner of Ade Are, the king of Iranje-Ideta Ile & Oko, Yeemo's husband, father of Ilesun & Ilale etc

I don't know who bore the name first but as with other figures like Orunmila, Esu, Osun, Oduduwa to mention a few - there are spiritual, mythical and human parts to their stories.

Baba's oriki that you cited was just a line from a long verse. From the same verse it also said 'Okunrin a sa'ra m'eegun' which goes to show Obatala was a 'he' in the human form.

One interesting thing to note is, prior to the Obatala human - Yeemo's husband, there was no Obatala worship anywhere recorded. It began after the passing of the Obatala of 15 centuries ago (like you said). The same is the case with all other deities.

Eruwadaaji.

We must understand that orisas are energies that can mount anybody showing in their character. Ogun for instance is basically Lakaaye, Iba o! Anybody that brought innovation that greatly enhances prosperity is Ogun Lakaaye. There are other aspects but Lakaaye I believe is the main. Osun is fertility. Obatala is good governmental administration and I believe women monarchs were more frequent in the past than today. There is a level of advancement in which women will be preferred to lead. I saw somewhere that in the odu of Obatala, the first mention was a woman, then down the verses, a man.

Orunmila is genuine concern for others. That is the energy. Jakuta is Justice or Vengeance and etc.

Then one thing we must know is that Oduduwa came 50 Kings ago and that the original was a minor imale who was wife of Obatala, to celebrate her, devotees have unhindered sex with other devotees in Awori. The man who came from Mecca, the descendant of Nimrod or Lamurudu was given that name by the oracle as it was the odu that emerged. That is my understanding. What we need to understand is that revisionism is rife and the Oduduwa group did some also. The fact staring us in the face is that Oduduwa is not a major orisa, a week day is not named after him. So he can not be compared to Obatala, Ogun and etc. I believe Sango as a name may be Tapa in origin as there are still people in the North bearing it as Zango andf etc.


We know that Ogun is osinmole, the first orisa to land on Earth as that is his oriki, Obatala set off but Ogun landed first, so where did Oduduwa come in. The Oduduwa is doubtless a late addition by Oduduwa's descendants. Ogun is the osinmole and the stories of Oduduwa vs Obatala were created probably in the 7th century.

Isnt everybody irunmale incarnate? We are all irunmale incarnate and all orisas are irunmales who are with special energies. Olodumare is an irunmale who rules from Ogotun as Olu Ogotun chairing a council of 401 irunmales, two hundred on the right and two hundred on the left. Then we cant pin down just one person and say the person is Obatala and Ogun. There were very many of them. The first Obatala spoken of in Ifa was a woman Oba, later down the line, Obatala was referred to as a woman but the energy is 'perfect government administrator'. A fun nini gba fun aini. O so eni kan di igba eni. Anire niwa, Aniwa nire. Iba o!. So you can not pin any orisa down to something that happened in Ile Ife around 15 centuries ago.