₦airaland Forum

For all the "real" christians questioning Obama, how come they never questioned if Bush was a christian?


These 3 things make someone a christian

-going to church
-praying
-saying that you're a christian

The word "christian" has a very ambiguous and diluted meaning. To claim that someone is a real christian will run the rist of a no true scotman fallacy.

One would argue that the 3 things that I listed are not enough to be a christian. However, if you met someone in church and you sam him praying, do you have the audacity and the biblical grounding to tell your friends that the person is not a real christian?

Matthew 7
New International Version (NIV)
Judging Others

7 “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you

ijawkid: How do u mean Jesus didn't oppose gay??

Did he approve of them??
Jesus cherished repentant wrongdoers not some incessant sinners who proudly wanna wallow in there loose conduct.......


Let me tell u,if a gay doesn't repent b4 d end comes then he/she cannot and will not inherit Gods kingdom.....shikena.....its as easy as ABC

Because of world issues like the gay issue,engaging in wars, that's why Jesus won't even engage in politics,because he knows satan is already in charge....
If u want scriptures I culd put them up

If obama was a true christian he would have envisaged d fact that being d president of america wuld mean him directly getin involved with this satan ruled world....and that his decisions and actions can never ryhme with Jesus's.....
If obama was a christian he wuld have long read from daniel and revelations what's in store for d nations of d earth and .its .kings...DESTRUCTION!!!.......


Jesus knows satan rules d world @ d moment and that soon it'll be his turn.....

And that will happen when Jesus would destroy satan or rather satan cast out from d earth and imprisoned.........

Obama is not even a christian......

Ur even more of a christian than obama....lol

A chrÍstian dat doesn't preach d gospel isn't a christian........

I wanna see obama 1 day pick up a mic and tell ameriÇans that an end to d world is imminent and that Gods kingdom is what is mans only solution,not us govt,UN,and d rest organizations that hide behind the peace $ love facade,meanwhile they are so satanic.

D day obama tells americans that,then I'll know he might be a christian........

You're a fool. Never one day have I seen christians question whether Bush was a christian. This president that tortured muslims, went to commit genocide in Iraq and gave tax cuts to his rich buddies

ijawkid: I am Ñot judging obama,but he just isn't a christian.....

Like I said our actions show wether we are not....not just talking,but acting d way Jesus would act.....

Does obama believe an end to all human governments is imminent?? Daniel 2:44

Does obama preach about Yahwehs kingdom

Does he pray for that kingdom to come

Does his action show he follows Jesus

Obama just gave his opinion on gay marraige......

Would Jesus take that stand.....

Logic boy obama is 100percent not a christian....

A christian anticipates Gods kingdom not human rulership

And how do you know that he doesnt anticipate going to heaven? Should he live like a monk because of death/heaven? Ode

There are christians who support gay marriage also. Jesus did not oppose gay marriage. If everyone is supposed to follow old testament then Ijawkid, please be the first to cast stones at gays.

LagosShia: check the verses i presented earlier,you will see that enslaving another human is a crime in islam because servitude is only for Allah (swt).but when it comes to prisoners of war,the story is different.Muslims should not use slavery as a trade:

"It is not meet for a mortal that Allah should give him the Book and the wisdom and 'Nabuwah' (prophethood), then he should say to men: Be my slaves rather than Allah's; but rather (he would say): Be sustenance providers (Rabaniyoon) because of your teaching the Book and your studying (it yourselves)."[3:79]

"…ye…may wed believing girls from among those whom your right hands posses….wed them with the leave of their owners, and give them their dower…"[4:25]

"…do ‘Ihsan’ (goodness) to parents …and (to) what your right hands posses."[4:36]

"Alms are for…those in Bondage, "[9:60]

"…But it is righteousness…to spend of your substance out of love for Him…for the ransom of slaves, "[2:177]

"And whoever kills a believer by mistake, it is ordained that he should free a believing slave, "[4:92]

"He will call you to account for your deliberate oaths: for expiation…give a slave his freedom, "[5:89]

"And if any of your slaves ask you for a deed in writing (for emancipation) give them such a deed; If ye knew any good in them: yea, give them something yourselves out of the means which Allah has given to you…"[24:33]

"So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners, and afterwards either set them free as a favor or let them ransom (themselves) until the war terminates…"[47:4]

You have started again.[b]So you are now claiming that slavery is a crime in Islam? [/b]Majority of muslims disagree with you on that. You fail but I will still address the quotes you put up!


Some of your quotes are not full and you have remixed them out of context eg

-9;60, which you remixed to say that alms are for slaves (slaves are now beggars? even your remix fails)

Zakah expenditures are only for the poor and for the needy and for those employed to collect [zakah] and for bringing hearts together [for Islam] and for freeing captives [or slaves] and for those in debt and for the cause of Allah and for the [stranded] traveler - an obligation [imposed] by Allah . And Allah is Knowing and Wise.

-24;33, which you cut, so that we wouldnt see the part where your female slaves can be compelled (if someone else compels them) into prostitution with Allah's forgiveness. Also, the deed for emancipation comes at a price to the slave. Why should one pay for his or her freedom? Furthermore, the slave has to be a good slave before the deed can be accepted by the slave master

USUFALI: Let those who find not the wherewithal for marriage keep themselves chaste, until Allah gives them means out of His grace. And if any of your slaves ask for a deed in writing (to enable them to earn their freedom for a certain sum), give them such a deed if ye know any good in them: yea, give them something yourselves out of the means which Allah has given to you. But force not your maids to prostitution when they desire chastity, in order that ye may make a gain in the goods of this life. But if anyone compels them, yet, after such compulsion, is Allah, Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful (to them),
=========================================================================================================================================================

As for the rest of your quotes, I will confess that yes, the Quran says you be good to your slave and also says that it is good to free slaves. However, 3 problems exist.

-Being good to ur slave is meaningless when you understand the relativity of "good" itself and the conditions of slaves in those times. Slaves did hard labour and slaves were beaten.

-Freeing slaves is a good thing but but there is no punishment for not freeing slaves. Furthermore, there was no mention of slavery being haraam

-The fate of female non-muslim slaves would have been worse. No marriage and no trust on them in the society. Slaves for life with no marriage. Cursed never to get married

solidbroda: According to the bible, man determines his own rise and fall. God has given us all the power. Whatever happens to mankind, good or bad, is our own doing. I heard the plane had a gear problem before and some other previous landing issues. Do you expect God to come and fix the gear? Common man. We ignore too many things we should have done ourselves. The white doctors, have saved lots of lives through their prompt medical care and professional doctors. Not through blaming one religion or blaming one God. We should learn to take care of our own responsibilities. If thorough check was made on the plane, nothing like this would have happened. however, may their souls Rest in peace.

I dont believe in God. Why do men praise God for good then when something bad happens, we should attach it to God?

I dont know why people are arguing over separation of church and state. The christians are bitter that they can not enforce a theocracy on others.

Name one prospering country that is both developed and free which doesnt have this principle. Secularity has always been the way forward.

Creationism and intelligent design have been debunked. There shouldnt be a debate with evolution.

solidbroda: May the gentle soul of those who died in the unfortunate incident rest in piece.
Common sense is rare, and God has given us power to govern ourselves. If we misuse it, we are on our own. So, if you are there and you say its God's doing,you definitely have schizophrenia.
May their be comfort to the families who lost their loved ones.

But, you would be the first to praise God for journey mercies when your family arrives from a trip? Is it not the pilot's doing to? Or God only takes the credit for good and not bad?

buzugee: what i do now Chief ?

You are one of the "eternal damnation" or heaven guys?

LagosShia: no matter what you say,"those your right hand poseess" ("ma malakat aymanukum" ) are under this condition in verse 4:24:

" [provided] that you seek them [in marriage] with [gifts from] your property, desiring chastity, not unlawful intimate intercourse".

also,note that Muslim men are not allowed to marry (permanent or temporary) women who are not muslim,christian or jew.most of those women in battles with the pagans of arabia therefore were not muslim nor christian or jewish (people of the book).therefore,any $exual intercourse amounts to fornnication/adultery.

Did you forget conversion? Conversion of female slaves?


I think this argument has gone too far. Let me give you the knockout punch;


Slavery, hardcore slavery was around before Muhammad and existed in Mecca or Arab society. Why was slavery never Haraam in Allah's Quran? Is the Quran not complete?

buzugee: your spirit / soul returns to the lord to rest and your body returns to the ground from whence it came. ( ecclesiastes 12 vs 7 )

Even you, Buzugee?

ijawkid: A christian is one who will act d way christ acted....

Our actions is what makes us christians not just holding d bible or praying....

Ofcus any1 can pray,but not all prayers are heard....

Obama is not a christian.....

He is simply a pseudo christian.......

If he is a christian he wouldn't engage in politics in d 1st place.....

Our actions is what makes us christians

So, all politicans are not christians? Epic fail.


Why are you judging Obama? How do I know that Ijawkid is a christian?

Uyi Iredia: Not believing in gnomes is also a philosophy. It can be expanded upon.

You just lost the argument. Epic fail. Please, don not even try to explain or come back to this point.

Uyi Iredia: I made no fallacy. You misunderstand me. You even more my comment that we are slaves to money.

We are not slaves to money. Money is only important to our lives. Before money was trade by barter. Were those people slaves to goods?

Uyi Iredia: Socrates, Plotinus & Empedocles went against their local gods and yet weren't atheist. They foresaw monotheism. I surmise the same went for these so-clled Africans you mention. I repeat: theism is foreign. You can mention names to counter my reply.

Plato was an agnostic at least and an atheist at best. Try again.

[quote author=tpia@]my post wasnt meant for you, thanks.[/quote]My debunking was meant for you. Thanks

Uyi Iredia: Yes. Because if we go way back we begin from an Almighty Creator, not chimpanzee-like ancestors.

Nonsense. There has never been a shred of evidence for your God. This is why it is called "faith". I dont believe in your God for the same reason you dont believe in Allah

Uyi Iredia: That's a SCAN of someone else's brain. Even if it were yours it wouldn't mean you've seen your brain. It would mean you saw a scan of your brain.

?? An accurate picture of my brain is evidence for my brain. We have also seen dead people's brains. There is none for your God.

Uyi Iredia: Typical atheist way of quoting the Bible out of context. What you mentioned were [b]laws at a given time [/b]not truths.

lmao. God gave those laws, remember? Either your God is schizophrenic or an immoral sadist. What changed his mind? Was it ever okay to murder people because of their sexual oreintation?

[quote author=tpia@]might probably be easier to define what does[b] not [/b]make someone a christian, going by what one sees these days.

eg

carrying a bible does[b] not [/b]make you christian.

warming the bench every sunday in church does not make you a christian.

saying the loudest amen during prayers is not what makes you a christian.

saying you are a christian is not what makes you a christian.

etc etc.[/quote]Going to church, praying and saying that you're a christian makes you a christian. If someoene does these 3 things and you claim that he is not a christian, then you will look foolish because, these are the only facts that we use to say that Obama is a christian or other people are christians.

LagosShia: you have failed another time.you are now debating based on speculation.

you said the Quran agreed to the conbinage of slave girls.i have asked you to provide a verse and you have failed to do so.

i also asked for a verse where slavery is halal and you failed.

i provided verses from the Quran where prisoners of war referred to as slaves should either be released or ransomed.and if they become one of us,we embrace them.we can also marry them if they wish so.

Even without providing a verse. What happens to the "POW's" that were non-muslim and not married and not ransomed? Hmmm? See how lies will always make you forget simple facts?


These verse clearly allows concubinage with


(4:24)

"And [also prohibited to you are all] married women except those your right hands possess. [This is] the decree of Allah upon you. And lawful to you are [all others] beyond these, [provided] that you seek them [in marriage] with [gifts from] your property, desiring chastity, not unlawful intimate intercourse. So for whatever you enjoy [of marriage] from them, give them their due compensation as an obligation. And there is no blame upon you for what you mutually agree to beyond the obligation. Indeed, Allah is ever Knowing and Wise."

Clearly, the first part of the allows sex with the female slaves. The part of unlawful intimate intercourse is debatable. If concubinage is allowed then s.ex with concubines is not unlawful.


Further proof of concubinage;

23:5 And they keep covered their private parts.
23:6 Except around their spouses (azwaaj), or those who are maintained by their oaths (ma malakat aymanukum, Right hand posses), they are free from blame.

23:7 But whoever seeks anything beyond this, then these are the transgressors


lol.....two different categories wives and ma malakat aymanukum. "Maintianed by their oats".....hmmm

Uyi Iredia: Both are philosophies. Both are beliefs. It's plain dishonesty to disacknowledge this.

I dont believe in the tooth fairy. Is that a philosophy?

Atheism is not a philosophy itself. You can have atheistic philosophy but atheism itself is not a philosophy or a religion.

Uyi Iredia: Because of the way capitalist & socialist economies are structured. If you read on economic systems of varied lands throughout history you'll note how slavery led to technological development which resulted in the modern economies we have today. BTW read that book I recommended, that is, if you haven't read it yet.

Nonsense. Employee and slaves mean two different things. I showed you how my father and brother are employees to themselves. How can they be slaves to each other? Then who is the master? Keep trying to lie and decieve your way out of the fallacy you created.

Uyi Iredia: I'm talking about atheism in the Western world, particularly in the UK. You seem to be a relatively new atheist. IOW, you deconverted not so long ago, am I correct ? Atheism is an imported philosophy. Africans are known to be religious.

Atheism is not foriegn. There were African men who went against the local gods or oracle. Atheism is a position not a philosophy.

Christianity is foriegn and it was used to support the slavery of our forefathers.

Uyi Iredia: When I say it was a necessary process I mean that it was the only possible path to take given the times. Are you forgetting it is fellow Africans who sold their brothers to get the white men's goods ?

You are an uncle tom for that statement. Would Africans have sold their brothers if the White men did not demand it? Do you think it is easy to sell your fellow brethren? There were Jewish collaborators during the holocaust. Do we blame Jews for the Holocaust?

Uyi Iredia: We aren't born atheists , we are born ignorant.

We are born atheists. Did you believe in God when you were a baby? Someone had to tell you about God

Uyi Iredia: God is as real as your brain which you'll never see throughout your existence.

Heard of MRI scans? I have seen my brain. Dont be foolish.

https://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2008/03/05/top400x276.jpg

Uyi Iredia: The Bible & The Koran contain eternal truths for all to drink from.

Truths like we should kill witches and stone homosexuals?

Uyi Iredia: You are shifting the scope of my point as all atheists do when I point out the similarities in the growth of atheism and Christianity.

No similarities. One is a religion, the other is disbelief

Uyi Iredia: Why can't they be. Whether you realize it or not. You are a slave to money. You are a slave to an entrepreneur. Most people are. Read Rich Dad Poor Dad by Robert Kiyosaki. He emphasizes this simple point.

Ode. You are now getting desperate. How can 2 people be slaves to each other?

Uyi Iredia: Same for Christians. Christians have different ways of going about their burials. Atheists are fast becoming known for what is called secular burials . . . and marriages.

Lies. Japanese atheist bury their dead in the traditional Japanese way. The same way Nigerian christians/pagans will bury thier dead according to the tribe they come from. Yoruba burial is different from Urhobo burial. Burial is not always a religious thing.


Secular wedding is not religious. Atheism is not a religion

hisblud: mr christian slavery

Your point sir?

ijawkid: I love my fellow humans that's why I want Gods kingdom to come to solve all them problems....

Because ur effort,my effort can't stop mans problems or niger delta's problem...


Remember wen u said u won't come be 9ja's president.....u urself dey run from ur country....lol
Why?


Don't u get d point

I said, that would prefer to chage people's opinions before becoming president

ijawkid: And what makes one an atheist and a pagan

Ya both think ur d ones with senses..................

Right


So who's an atheistlogic boy answer that


Who's a pagan Pagan9ja answer

An atheist is soeone that has a disbelief in God or gods

LagosShia: killing is killing.no doubt.but in Islam during war only combatants are to be killed.when you raise a sword to kill you should be prepared to die.you dont go about killing harmless people with no arms.



please show me a verse from the Quran stating that "concubinage with slave girls" is allowed.i want you to point out the word "concubine" in the Quran and what is its equivalent in arabic.

as i know of the Quran,the below (4:24) is what i read:

"And [also prohibited to you are all] married women except those your right hands possess. [This is] the decree of Allah upon you. And lawful to you are [all others] beyond these, [provided] that you seek them [in marriage] with [gifts from] your property, desiring chastity, not unlawful intimate intercourse. So for whatever you enjoy [of marriage] from them, give them their due compensation as an obligation. And there is no blame upon you for what you mutually agree to beyond the obligation. Indeed, Allah is ever Knowing and Wise."

Just because "concubine" is not written doesnt mean that the slave girls were not used as concubines. Many of your islamic websites say this. There is no argument since you want to lie about this.


This is my problem. You are good person and a good muslim. The only problem is that you believe that your Koran is perfect which is not true.

Slavery will always be a stain on islam.

Facts;

-Slavery is addressed in the Koran
-Sex and Marriage with slaves is disucssed
-Prohibition or the haraam of slavery is not discussed.

vedaxcool: When would u be honest enough to state the assignment is too difficult for you? You have until wednesday to submit your assignment, why u must submit is simple, you claim it is just simple thing to do, failing well I leave the consequence for later.

What are you going to do if I dont do the assignment? Behead me as you shout "ALLAHU AKBAR!!"??

All of you are wrong.

top reasons to be a christian


-so that you can claim to be part of the right people who are going to heaven

-so that you can one day chop the tithe of member sheep

-so that you can claim that you have morals

-Private jets

-Slapping of young girls who annoy you a la Oyedepo
-Iniviting all the hot girls to your church a la Sign Fireman
-Having $ex with young A$$eS a la the catholic church

[quote author=PAGAN 9JA]you are welcome brother. just making a point. . [/quote]I might not agree with your religion but at least, you are more educated than these fake christians (especially Mr Anony) who are slaves to a religion that is racist towards them. These people forget that what makes a country great is people working together, who are proud of their culture and not subject to a foriegn religion. Most of these christians want everybody to be christians and anything not christain is the devil!

Many of these Nigerian christians do not know the importance of using one's culture to his advanatage. Many Japanese people do not even believe in their pagan shintoism but they dont throw it away. They recognize it as part of their culture and still make painting and art regarding it.

Imbeciles like Mr. Anony like to rush to their churches with the crosses of a zombie white Jesus before recognising the fact that christianity played a good part in destroying their culture. They call pagans devilish when christianity itself is a result of pagan traditions and is a cult following a Jewish zombie who died like a common thief on the cross

ijawkid: Oboy d world will never know peace until Gods kingdom takes over from mans in-ept,selfish rulership..........


Which ever way u look @ it humans have failed.......

They need to wait on to God to rule them........

D world and its desire will soon pass away and it will occur suddenly then ya doubting eyes will become clear............

I don't expect u to believe in this message.....

People like ya type existed even in d days of d apostles........

They never heeded to d warnings Jesus gave as to d destruction of Jerusalem .......

They thought d relative measure of peace. They enjoyed will remain like that,until d romans came and annihilated them....

Only those who listened to Jesus and kept awake that fled to the mountains.......

So logic boy its ur choice......

Believe an end is coming or not..........

But deep down in u I know u really wanna see all of mankinds problems solved.......

You irritate. You call yourself a true christian, yet you have no compassion for the suffering of your fellow people/tribesmen.

If hell exists, you will be there before me.

Thank you, Pagan Naija!

According to BBC, another church in Northern Nigeria (Bauchi, to be exact) has been bombed! A suicide bomber drove a car into a church, wounding 30 people in the blast.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-18314722

https://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/58766000/gif/_58766406_nigeria_bauchi_maiduguri_0212.gif


I wonder how many people will die before people will accept that religion is a road block to an advanced civilization for the 21st century!

LagosShia: @logicboy

i have posted verses from the Quran that deals with the topic of slavery and prisoners of war to be precise.you can go through those verses again if you like.the take of the Quran is clear.i am not interested to know or argue over what Muslims did right or wrong.i am interested to defend my faith and that i have done because the Quran's guidelines are pure and clear.you can be boasting that your ancestors like those jews in the bible would behead or kill everyone including women and children.Islam does not do that.they are taken as prisoners with the hope of reforming them into better human beings or freeing them and showing mercy or ransoming them.

Lies again!!!!

@ the bolded part; Muhammad himself lead conquests and beheaded other people killing is killng man or woman. Did Muhammad not go to war? Your lies are catching up to you.



You claim that the Quran's guidelines are pure and clear and it clearly regulated slavery and agreed to concubinage of slave girls. The 3rd Geneva convention (from the infidel west) has better guidelines than your Quran as it forbids the enslavement of POW's.


Please, correct me where I am wrong.