₦airaland Forum

HellVictorinho4:
How is ignorance the reason for lack of belief and how is lack of belief a choice?

Babies are atheists....... even if LordReed says otherwise.

This is like claiming the baby is Christian or Muslim simply because of the parents beliefs. It is neither nor can it to be said to be of any religious persuasion since it has no knowledge of these things. Or are you telling me you can be a Christian without knowing it?

HellVictorinho4:
If indeed the dog is there means the dog is known to be there or .,.....


If it is known to be there,why would there be rejection?

Does sincere rejection of knowledge not involve not knowing?

I don't know all the reasons why people reject facts but delusion is one reason.

Not always.

TenQ:
Check again please.
I said
1. Atheists expect God to be made up of Matter
2. Since God is not made up of Matter they reject everything to the contrary
3. In other words, atheists are Basing their decisions on incomplete information.
3. My opinion: Since the information about God atheists want is incomplete, they have to believe the Creator doesn't exist
4. My conclusion: Atheists say they DO not disbelieve but they LACK a BELIEF! (Contrary to nos 3)

Of course it is based on incomplete information that's why we are ignoramuses on the question of whether god(s) exist and that's is why we lack belief. Why would we form a belief on incomplete information?

I gave you two simple examples to illustrate what can be described as "LACK of BELIEF".

1. I lack a belief in the existence of Superman or Spiderman.
Why!?
I have a complete knowledge about Superman or Spiderman to come to such a conclusion. Therefore, even if I choose to believe in Superman or Spiderman, it would be impossible because I know they don't exist except inside comic books!
2. I lack a belief that 2+4=24
Why!?
I know for certain that 2+4=6, therefore it is impossible for me to believe that 2+4=24 even of I choose to.


A person can lack a belief ONLY and either he is totally IGNORANT or fully KNOWLEDGEABLE about a subject.

The question of sufficient evidence has been taken care of earlier: as The Creator CANNOT be physical and thus physical parameters can not be objectively used to know Him.

It is stupidity to insist on using a Ruler to measure the diameter of an atom. The fact that such is impossible does not invalidate the existence of atoms. Such is the argument of atheists with respect to their claim of lack of "sufficient evidence".

Wrong again. In other to form a belief you need information. If the information is not sufficient then a belief cannot be formed.

Of course, a Disbelief is an active rejection of available facts.
A lack of belief is completely different. As stated above, a lack of belief is born out of Gnostic knowledge.

A Question: Which of these two options is closest to the truth
Do you
A. Lack a Belief that 2+5=25 or
B. Disbelief that 2+5=25

No it is not. One could argue that that maybe DISBELIEF is tantamount to gnostic knowledge since the assumption is you know enough to actively disbelieve what is otherwise fact. Lack of belief does not make a claim to knowledge so cannot be gnotic in any form. Matter of fact many people who would hold this position would consider themselves AGNOSTIC atheists.

Neither since I KNOW that 2+5 = 7 not 25 and 2+5=25 is not a fact.

TenQ:
Thanks for going straight to the conclusion. An atheist is an IGNORAMUS simply because he expects a Creator made up of Matter. And since such kind of Creator does NOT exist, he chooses with incomplete knowledge a POSITION of BELIEF!
He now comes around to claim that he lacks a belief

Unless words no longer have the meanings we attribute to them then it is impossible for lack of belief to also be "a POSITION of BELIEF". A lack of something cannot by any stretch of the imagination also be the something that is in lack eg lack of food cannot also be food.

In other words, a baby is NOT a dumb IGNORAMUS neither does he have the capacity to KNOW the basic concept of God.

Ok

It is my dear. A LACK of BELIEF is exactly the same thing as a GNOSTIC knowledge?

Let me give you some instances
1. I lack a belief in the existence of Superman or Spiderman.
Why!?
I have a complete knowledge about Superman or Spiderman to come to such a conclusion. Therefore, even if I choose to believe in Superman or Spiderman, it would be impossible because I know!
2. I lack a belief that 2+4=24
Why!?
I know for certain that 2+4=6, therefore it is impossible for me to believe that 2+4=24 even of I choose to.


A person can lack a belief ONLY and either he is totally IGNORANT or fully KNOWLEDGEABLE about a subject.

However,
3. Can a person lack a belief that the Nigeria would be the greatest nation on the face of the earth 200 years from now?

No!
One can disbelieve such assertion
and
One can believe such assertion

Both positions above has to do with INCOMPLETE knowledge and arguments can be thrown up in either direction!

It takes a certain form of TOTAL/COMPLETE knowledge to claim a DISBELIEF!

Wrong. You don't need complete knowledge to lack the belief as you have already showed with the baby. In the atheist case it is basically that the proposition "god(s) exist" has not being sufficiently demonstrated to the point where an atheist will gain the knowledge of such of god(s). If the atheist has no knowledge of the god(s), how can he then at the same time have the knowledge of the god(s)? It's impossible.

Also lack of belief is not disbelief. Disbelief is an active rejection of a fact. If you said here look, my dog is sitting over in that room and indeed the dog was there but I still said I don't believe you, that would be disbelief. On the other hand if you said you had a dog but when I ask you where it is you mumbled some incoherent thing and I said well I'll wait to see the dog before I believe you, that is lack of belief. They sound the same but they are not. To be clear some atheists do say they actively disbelieve in all forms of god(s), I am not one of them so I couldn’t tell you how they arrived at their position.

TenQ:
Would you agree with me that a LACK of BELIEF is exactly the same thing as a GNOSTIC knowledge?


Gnostic knowledge is a Complete Knowledge about something!


A person who lacks a belief is either a DUMB/IGNORAMUS or one with a FACTUAL KNOWLEDGE!

Do you know why a Baby cannot be called an Atheist?

Yes an atheist is an ignoramus concerning god(s) since no facts concerning the existence of god(s) can be sufficiently demonstrated.

A baby has no concept of god(s) so cannot actively participate in the debate.

And no, lack of belief is not the same of gnostic knowledge since it carries no claim to knowledge in the first place.

7 months after 1st dose and 5 months after 2nd, still here, Truthwords.

RenerdLiam:
Well, that depends on your definition of Chill.

There is no definition of chill that involves being a jerk.

RenerdLiam:
Actually, there is always sacrifices to made in life.

His decisions calls for that, we can say he is selfish. But who isn’t?

He had a burning desire to achieve something, reason he treats that thing with more regards than his family.

Reason the poor console themselves with the fact that the rich has plenty problem. The poor enjoy their own pleasure. The rich enjoy their own problem.

Last last, everyone sticks to their choice without giving much thought to its societal or environmental impact, especially if that thought will affect their pleasure or their goals.

So last last, everyone is selfish.

That is a terrible attitude so yeah you only prove the Elon is not as chill as many people think he is.

ChiefJusticeFuc:
Who told you he neglected his kids?

You seem not to know that marriage laws and courts in the west are heavily skewed to screw the man .

That gold digger wanted child support and hefty divorce alimony which she got .

Do you even know if she has refused to grant him both custody and insist on very limiting visitation periods for Musk to see his own kids?

You sound like a kid to say Musk should have spent more time with his own kids as if that is what turned the kids gay.

Know now that the western courts have been so corrupted by Judases hence the reference to them as The Jewdociary that they exist only to destroy healthy family life by making divorce easier and beneficial to only women.

How was she a gold digger?

siofra:
I think he just became old. The older you get, the more conservative you become.

He was 37 when he divorced his first wife, he wasn't old then but he was pretty shitty to her.

RenerdLiam:
C’mon. Have you ever aspire to become high??

Don't you know the opposition that comes with such? Especially to someone in such position as Musk’s is.

Even the Bible said, and I quote “The Kingdom of God suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force”.

He will soon come crumbling if he is a fool. You can't keep your position or become a good leader if you are all jellied.

Even towards your own wife and mother of your kids?

MadarasBlade:
Beacause he changed his political view from being liberal to far right?

I get that you don't like republicans, but everyone is entitled to his or her political views.

Where did I mention political views?

MadarasBlade:
And how do you know that Elon isn't a good person?

I don't know about good person or not but Elon initially appeared to be a progressive until his real values started coming to the fore and he is not what he appears to be. The man has a mean streak you wouldn't expect from someone that appears so chill.

ShaqFu:
Why tha fvck do we need to know this? If he or she or they or them or whatever they want to be called decide to change their gender to that of a monkey, isn't it suppose to be a personal thing, rather than tell the whole world.

Ask the journalists who decided this was newsworthy. The young lady in question didn't make a public announcement.

BirtherOfKings:
Many of this parents hate and very upset about the choices of their children being trans or gay.. am sure he walked in on a conversation and saw d dad was saying his mind..rich man still get wahala
All d best to Xavier.. I hope his plan to leave d papa is a tightproof one

I don't think she'll be hurting for money. Her mum divorced Elon and eventually got a nice settlement.

OkCornel:
Josephus writing about the trial of James the brother of Jesus the Christ.

Read the part I’ve circled slowly. Then argue with the first century historian - Josephus Flavius.

Cc: Budaatum, LordReed, MaxinDHouse

Chapter 9 of Book 20 in the Antiquity of the Jews written by Josephus Flavius concludes this discussion.

What part of "I am not arguing against the historicity of Jesus" do you not get?

OkCornel:
I’m basically clarifying my stance from the get go…which you somehow misunderstood

It is you who misunderstood. I was pointing out the problem with the text you said was a Jewish rabbinic work which literally has no academic support, which is tantamount to you presenting a fictional comic book as proof of a real person. Perhaps you thought I was attacking the historicity of Jesus.

OkCornel:
Sir, are they discussing about someone who really existed? That has been my focus from the get go. I don’t care if it’s satire or a comic book.

Is the character in question a real person? Or a fictitious one.

You will be using a bad source to try and prove a historical person from a satirical piece. There was a real Dracula, he was nothing like depicted in horror movies and books so it will be a bad idea to prove his existence from those works of fiction. Stick with proper history text if you want to present a historical narrative.

OkCornel:
Enough of the rigmarole.

Maynmann

Let’s take a sample of responses from Jewish Rabbis to confirm if Jesus existed or not…shall we?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism%27s_view_of_Jesus#:~:text=There%20is%20no%20specific%20doctrinal,issue%20in%20traditional%20Jewish%20thought.

LordReed, is this another “things fall apart” scenario?

And you think I am arguing against a historical Jesus? If that is your thought then glad to tell you you are wrong.

OkCornel:
You’re missing the entire point.
Did the Jews consider Yeshua Ben Yosef as someone who existed at some point in their history? Yes or No

That’s the crux of the matter.

A simple poll from Jewish Rabbis would put this needless back and forth to bed.

And the point is that this piece of writing is not expressing actual history whether or not they thought the person was real. The back and forth only exists because you refuse to see the simple point before your very eyes. A satirical work even if based on a real person is not a historical document.

Maynmann:
Heaven means sky.
Just as hell means Gehenna a garbage place

I think you really need to learn that some people on here use a lot of sarcasm to put their points across.

Maynmann:
And budaatum thinks people end up in sky after death.

Really? Where has budaatum said such a thing?

budaatum:
The part that causes you to debate, Mayn, and to debate how you do, which for me is like arguing if Ikemefuna was really beheaded by Okonkwo as opposed to the book's role in things falling apart. Some people only ask what, and perhaps who, and don't concern themselves with why and what with and when and how etc etc etc.

For some, Torah, and Mishna and Bible and gemorrah etc along with all books were all written by 'scholars', and in my own opinion its worse to bow down and worship "written by scholars" as opposed to understanding what scholars wrote and why scholars wrote what they wrote and the effect what scholars wrote may have had or may be having, along with what tools (and please don't misliterally read this as any form of paper on ink or chisel on stone) that scholars might have written with and how etc etc etc.

It is my profound belief that even if they don't get to live eternally or end up in heaven as opposed to being food for the worms, whosoever learns these and many unlisted things shall stumble less than those who don't.

And note, other sources to learn such things exist.

But OkCornel is like someone who thinks Things Fall Apart is a historical biography.

OkCornel:
Smh, I've explain this over and again. The Jews insulted mocked Jesus of the bible over his paternity alluding that he was conceived by Mary (Miriam) having an affair w=or was raped by a Roman soldier called Pantera. Other rumors/insults making the rounds was Mary had an affair with a carpenter...and that was how Jesus of Nazareth in the Bible was conceived,

It's not rocket science nau to understand this

You are like a man quoting a comedy show as is the attics of the characters are actual history. That work is most likely a satirical piece meant to mock Christians, it cannot be taken as a history lesson.

MaxInDHouse:
I don tell you Mr Atheist, no dey chuk mouth for wetin you no sabi!

LoLz! Wetin I sabi be say all na okpats yarn una dey yarn.

OkCornel:
I do

Lolz

Well good for you.

OkCornel:
The ball is in your court bro. The answer to my question answers yours. Two birds killed with one stone.
It's up to you to answer it or not.
Not my cup of tea

LoLz. Who cares if it was your cup of tea before?

OkCornel:
Wonderful, and here goes the round about game...

The answer to my question answers yours. Goodluck!

A game started by you, own it.

OkCornel:
Long story short, do the Jews believe Yeshua Ben Yosef existed in their history? Yes or No

Twice I have asked a simple question but you refused to answer but want me to answer yours.

OkCornel:
Nope, face the facts...question is, is the Toledot Yeshu popular in the Jewish community? Yes or No
Do the Jews believe Yeshua Ben Yosef existed at some point in their history? Yes or No

LoLz. This is like asking me is Esu popular in the Yoruba community. The scholar consensus is more important to determining what this document actually contains and the scholarly consensus is this not a canonical document or a serious retelling of history.

Is the Soncino Talmud the same as the Soncino Babylonian Talmud?

OkCornel:
In its Hebrew and Yiddish versions, the Toledot Yeshu has had a wide circulation and influence, particularly in Eastern European Jewish communities. It has served as a popular handbook and is almost the only source left to the Jewish people from which to draw knowledge concerning Jesus Christ. Jacob Jocz, writing from his own personal experience prior to his coming to faith in Jesus, stated, “It used to be read with great relish, especially on Christmas Eve, and even now [the 1940s] Jewish schoolboys in countries like Poland are given the evening free to enjoy the story on the night of Natal [Nativity]” (pp. 63–64).
https://israelmyglory.org/article/jesus-in-the-rabbinical-literature/

LoLz. Why would I accept the word of a Christian about this over the word of JEWISH scholars?

OkCornel:
1. The Soncino Talmud

Is this the Soncino Babylonian Talmud?

Sefer Toledot Yeshu (ספר תולדות ישו, The Book of the Generations/History/Life of Jesus), often abbreviated as Toledot Yeshu, is an early Jewish text taken to be an alternative biography of Jesus of Nazareth. It exists in a number of different versions, none of which is considered either canonical or normative within Rabbinic literature. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toledot_Yeshu

In academic circles, the book has been dismissed as a reliable source for historical events and was at best considered as “a polemical satire against Christianity based on inversions of New Testament narratives” (David Biale), or, at worst, as “an instructive evidence of a regrettable popular psychosis” (Bernát Heller).
https://judaic.princeton.edu/about-us/resources/toledot-yeshu