₦airaland Forum

vedaxcool: ^
@ mazaje u made a a good but futile effort in ur attempt in explaining atheism strange non - achievement. U claimed atheism brought resistance towards the religious establishment, yet that fell down immediately after simple scrutiny, we saw that Jesus simples example of challenging religious authority was definately not borne out new religion vs old religion, he simply challenged them on their practoce of jewish laws and customs as he was attributed to have said I bring no new doctrine etc in any case his criticism of the religious establishment were somply on right and wrong.Yet Jesus would not be the first person to challenge the religious establishment of his community, it is a practice well established from culture to culture.

False, only that in the case of Jesus we are told he brought NEW doctrines. . .For example he sought to change the law of the Sabbath, equated himself to God something which was strange to the Jews castigated the people and brought his own new ideas, brought the idea of hell, something the Jew do not believe in etc. .

Again this was hardly based on atheism and its ideal it was born out of religious conviction that made people question the clergy when it went wrong. Freedom of speech invented by atheism is BULL. When caliph Uthman invited all the critics of his rule to assemble at Mecca and make their allegations against him, the time came. And they all assembled, at Mecca making all their allegations about his rule to him, rather than execute his critics he took time to explain his policies, unless u want to believe they communicated their misgivings tru ventriloquism we will have to settle for the fact that free speech is not an atheist invention.

I never said that criticism of religion and those that claim to speak on behalf of their various Gods is purely an atheist invention, atheism is helping to promote it is all i said. . .

On democracy u make me laugh the greeks had long practiced democracy long before the atheist knew how to spell atheism.
Reports I read claims that even democracy proceeded the greeks. On superstition again numerous religions have before modern atheism rejected superstition, in fact Islam rejection of superstitious belief eventually led to one of the biggest leap in scientific advancement mankind ever experience. Tell us something.

You are making things up and running commentaries on them. . .No where did I say that democracy is purely an atheist concept. . .Islam rejecting superstition?. . How can Islam reject superstition when islam is superstition? . . .LWKMD. . . .Islam led to the biggest leap in scientific advancement? Really? Which modern day scientific principles, laws or theories are there to be found in the Koran?

maclatunji: You have a written a lot of things, but the one that I will hold on to first is your asking how do we know that the universe was created by a single entity? As an atheist, you shouldn't be asking this question because you claim not to believe in any superior entity at all, so additional numbers you are implying there is useless. For example if I say I have no money at all, it is stupidity for anybody to ask me if I have more than one Naira- I have said it, I have no money

When you make a claim then its up to you to provide evidence for such a claim. . .If you say you have no money in your pockets and a person ask you to prove it, all you have to do is empty your pockets so that the person will see and be convinced its that simple. . .There are so many people making claims about their various Gods creating the universe, your evidence to show that your own particular God created the universe ALONE and not the assembly of Hindu Gods for example is WHAT?. . . .That is the QUESTION. . .Forget about my unbelief and provide evidence for your claims. . .It should be that simple for you to do. . .

If I was even going to move with your confused line of reasoning, I would still have to ask you, which of the beings came first? Look at Greek or Yoruba mythology, who came first among the so-called gods. Once you start counting entities there has to be an order of precedence. Who came first? There has to be a source and you my friend have to agree that God is the source.

The source of all mythologies, islamic, christian, yoruba, mayan, chinese, indian are HUMANS. . .That is the source of all the mythologies. . .It begins and ends with humans and their creative conceptions, ideas, superstitions and mythologies. . .The islamic mytholgy you adhere to is equally valid/invalid as the indian mythology for example. . .

You seek to belittle the size of the Universe as an evidence for the existence of God. Look at it this way, freaks or accidents are not the norm they are comparatively rare occurrences. If you start seeing trillions of stars, planets etc. Your brain should tell you that someone is in charge of putting everything in order and maintaining its balance.

The universe is evidence for the existence of the universe. . .Why some one? why not some ones? again your evidence to show that ONLY one single entity is responsible for the whole universe is WHAT?. . .So many other religions believe that there universe is controlled by many Gods, where is your evidence to prove them wrong and show that it is a single entity that is controlling the universe?. . .Scientist have studied the universe and have given us the best explanation of what we see and they are yet to see the name or signature of any God any where in any part of the universe, all they have shown us as just mindless forces acting on each other. . .

The internet is man's greatest invention, it did not happen by chance, it took decades of hard work and research to create it. It takes a whole lot of work and research to maintain it, Think man, think.

And who told you that the universe must behave like the human society or the planet earth?. . .Many things that apply here do not apply in space, every thing that u throw up with in the earths atmosphere must come down, but that doesn't apply in space, so the universe is NOT a human society and must not act as one. .We actually know very little about the universe and you are here saying it was created by one God because some Arabic prehistoric men wrote some stories about their fantasies and you were indoctrinated to accept it since childhood. . .

Our bodies are more complex than the internet and you really want us to believe it happened by chance. That is just #Ludicrous and #Untenable.

If I quote scripture, you will say it is fabricated, we give you superior argument, you say you don't want to believe. You are a joke and an inconsequential one for that matter in the grand scheme of things.

No, all am saying is I don't know, you claim to know so put forward your evidence and lets see how it measures against reality. . .Which scripture are you going to quote?. . .Bible, Hindu Verde, Buddhist scripture or the koran?. . .Scriptures are words of men, men wrote them so why should I accept them. since they all make claims without any evidence?. . .Scriptures are valid/invalid the same as the evolution text books you seek to make ridicule. . .They are all the works of men and their ideas, and ALL scriptures are equally valid or invalid as per their claims of creation. . .Non is more valid than the other in real sense. . .You have not given any superior arguments, you are saying things must be this way or that way based on your personal belief and not based on evidence. . .

You are the proof that God exists, read material on how your body works and tell me if all of that happened by chance. Maybe all of the human beings in the world can agree to work for a single entity at the same time, which is essentially what the cells in your body do.

Let me reason like you and also tell you that you are reason that evolution exists. . .Read about evolution and all its claims in totality, it proves that you are evidence that it exists. . .Evolution does not only exist it has scientific claims to back it up at all levels according to scientist, evolutionary research has been used to invent drugs among other things, so you are evidence that evolution exist. . How about that?. . .

You can't even agree with your siblings in totality for a second and you think billions of living things work in harmony by accident, you are not serious.

Let me also reason like you and say that you can not even agree with others about all the various Gods they believe in yet you believe that your own God which you got to know only through indoctrination and cultural acceptance is the only God that created the universe, you are a joke. . .

maclatunji: Let me address you, Evil Brain's response is a joke. @Mazaje, well neither here nor there. #GuyisConfused

It is obvious that you don't know what you are talking of. There are two major explanations for why we are here: It is either you believe that we were created (Creation) by a higher being (God) or you believe we somehow developed out of something or nothing (Evolution).

Or another option is we don't really know which happens to be the most honest option. . . .How do you know that the universe was created by one single entity? Your evidence for that wild assertion is WHAT?. . .because you were raised in an Islamic family that thought you about the God of the ancient arabs and their superstitious beliefs?. . . .

Most times I laugh when you talk, you seek to say no higher being exists (God) and as such you cannot believe in creation.

Hence, that leaves you with evolution. I begin to show you how silly it is with my last post. You begin to try to distance yourself from it.

Evolution makes more sense that creationism as such there are more theist evolutionist that atheist, most of the theist living in Europe and america believe in evolution go figure. . .

If you cannot believe/fully defend evolution, you have no other alternative than to stick with creation which means acknowledging God. You know you are going in circles with this post of yours.

Which of the Gods created the universe? Allah, Ra,Zeus, Yahweh,Vishnu, the pantheon of hindu God or Goddesses, The Mayan Gods etc which one?. . .

'Evolution is supported by lots of evidence' ... 'Even if evolution was proved wrong' 'Atheism is not Evolutionisn', really?

Atheism is not dependent on evolution, it is dependent on what? Groundnuts?

Atheism is simply a lack of belief in Gods, the theory of evolution was proposed about 150 years ago or there about, before it was proposed there were atheist around. . .I repeat there are more theistic evolutionist that atheistic evolutionist. . .

As for waiting for more research to prove there is God. You are very funny, I told you that there are more stars in the Universe than there are grains of sand on earth and you think that your waiting for evidence is a one big consequential thing we should all hold our breath for- My friend don't you get it? The earth is not even a star, we are virtually inconsequential when compared to the universe or God that created it and keeps it in order.

So because there are many stars means God did it ,eh?. . .Your evidence to show that the whole universe was created by one single entity is WHAT?. . .Do you have a video recording of Allah creating the universe alone?. . .or are you just regurgitating the opinions of others?. . .Pls provide evidence that Allah alone created the universe. . .I say the Hindu Gods came together and created the universe and not Allah, pls prove me wrong with concrete evidence. . .The universe is in order, really?. . .You have no idea of what you are talking about. . .

Let us try another experiment: leave Nairaland without moderation for a day and see what would happen. If you cannot do that, do you think God would leave us without moderating us? He keeps everything in balance by his will. #Think

Only that we don't get to see any God in action any where, we only get to see various believers in different Gods self projecting themselves as their various Gods and lying or putting forward their various superstitions, mythologies and ideas as facts. . .when they are not. . .

Your claim of disbelief in God(because there is nothing/no one that does not really know he exists) is less as important or significant as a single cell of your body dying-off to be replaced by another one. #Acknowledgeyourcreator for without him you are #inconsequential.

Good night!

Question begging is what you are doing, you haven't established that any God created any man. . .You are only projecting your PERSONAL BELIEFS, and we all know what personal beliefs are. . .

@ OP, How do you expect to find black prophets when the religions did not originate from black people?. . . .

[quote author=Mai-suya]The qur'an says, "and there was never a nation except a warner (prophet) dwelt among them" Quran- fatir

It also says " indeed we have said said messengers before you (Muhammad PBUH) some of which we have related their stories to you and others which we have not told you their stories..."Quran- ghafir

"on the day when we shall call on every nation by it's leader (prophet)"

From the above verses from the Quran we believe as Muslims that including black Africa had their prophets sent to them, that's why we can see some traces of monotheism in some African religion.

SO THE ANSWER IS YES FROM THE QURANIC PERSPECTIVE[/quote]What the name of the prophets sent to the Chinese and Indians? how come they never never wrote anything about Allah but wrote a lot about other Gods?. . .

maclatunji: Atheists go round in circles. In their attempts to deny God, they seek to create new concepts that cannot stand the test of holding the fabric of society together. There are more stars in the universe than there are grains of sand on earth. You seriously think all of that happened by chance without direction and guidance?[/q

Seun, you know what? Let us try an experiment: leave Nairaland as it is and don't touch it, let us see it revert to the old Nairaland or change to a video sharing website by itself.

Shebi, you are believer in evolution. Let Nairaland change itself, why are you working so hard to change it? Can't it evolve by itself?

Of course, you know it is not possible. Yet, you want to claim that the earth's minerals combined to form micro-organisms. #Wonderful

Many atheistic societies are doing very fine without religion. . .many are actually doing better than the religious societies. . .As an atheist I will simply tell you that I don't know how the universe came about. . .You are the one claiming that it was created by a single entity that speaks arabic and sent a book to some pre historic arab men to guide humans some 1600 years ago. . . .Do you have any evidence to show that the universe was created by ONLY one entity and that the entity speaks Arabic for example?. . .What makes you belief better than that of the evolutionist?. . .At least the evolutionist has better evidence and his belief and theory is used to find cure for disease for example. . .Where are your own evidence to show that the universe was created by one entity that speaks arabic?. . .

^^
Sure atheism denies the existence of Gods, it refuses to accept religious dogma, superstition, mythologies and fantasies. . .It promotes free thought and ideas, skepticism and rational thought. . .It doesn't really have a frame work but a culture and a way of life can be built on its principles, concepts like secularism, secular humanism and the separation of religion and state. . . .bad ideas like communism and some form of fascism in the past have been built based on atheism I believe. . .

^^
Sure atheism denies the existence of Gods, it refuses to accept religious dogma, superstition, mythologies and fantasies. . .Promotes free thoughts, skepticism and rational thought. . .It doesn't really have a frame work but a culture and a way of life can be built on its principles, concepts like secularism and the separation of religion and state. . . .

^^
Fancy rubbish like?. . .

vedaxcool: ^
The question remains what has that unbelief contributed to humanity, define atheism by any term u want to the issue remains what has that ur definition of atheism brought to humanity and from every indication nothing new, your claim that it brought resistance to religious authority appears more like a product of ur wishful thinking than anything tangible. Looking at the historical antecedents u will find that religious figures have long spoken out and resisted the excesses of the clerical establishment, read the story of Jesus what was all his struggles about? He kept on condemning the clerical regime of the jews and definately he was no atheist.

It has helped to stand against crowd controlled mythologies, fantasies and dogma. . . Religious authorities only challenge other authorities that seem to disagree with them or try to subvert their authority. . .Jesus we are told challenged the excesses of the religious authority of his time why promoting his own superstition and dogma. . . .All religions seem to destroy rational thought and tag it as a sin or a bad thing. . .Rational and free thought from indoctrination and religious dogma gave birth to modern science, democracy, freedom of expression, right to association and everything we see in the advanced and developed societies today. . .As a result most of the developed societies in the world today are purely secular and atheistic or moving towards unbelief. . .Religion has very little or no role to play in most developed societies today. . . .

So many tales of religion inspired resistance to the excesses of the clergy. In essence what u want to attribute to atheism has long have a precedence. And really can we say separation of church from state was the atheist doing? If modern western civilization have its roots in atheism - something very debatable - are u willing to accept the countless fostered imbecility that this civilization is burdened with? Please let's be specific.

Is the separation of church and state the theist doing?. . .Sure atheism has its down side just like everything else in the world and am very willing to accept that. . .Back in the days atheistic authoritarianism and other nonsense was promoted by some atheist, but that was before they figured out how to handle it properly. Now it mostly contributes things like secular humanism and epistemic humility, which seem pretty good so far.

vedaxcool: The response are so wrong! Making me wonder when will harakiri finally commit harakiri and free nl of harakism! . The atheists are begging for a diversion of the thread. Some made failed attempts to answering the question, yet it was barely there. The claim that atheism is n,t organized should not be tendered by any serious minded person, consider picking coin is my hobby and u ask me what has my picking of coins contributed to humanity, my response is coins can be preserved for later generations. Imagine such trivial activities can boast of a contribution to humanity yet atheism and all the hype and harakiri can not even give us a bad coin excuse! Lol

For seun to claim he contributed nl is a contribution by atheism is hardly attributed to being an atheist, would the countless websites that people socialize in be considered contributions by their respective religions? Don't make me laugh and Bill gate gave humanity microsoft? Really another contribution by atheism? Ok and the countless bugs Microsoft fix time to time is what? A draw back to atheism? This sort of things are more of the individual own personal effort.

The question is simple what exactly did atheism contribute to humanity?

Athesism is a rejection of deities, it is not an ideolgy or philosophy. Atheism and free though have lead to the resistance of letting religions and those who claim to speak for their various Gods is enabled by atheism.The principle of secular separation of church and state along with freedom of expression and the doing away of religious dogma which has fostered modern western civilization has its roots in unbelief, skepticism and atheism. . . . .

It bothers me because I see muslims here in the west enjoying the right to practice their religion freely while they refuse to allow others practice theirs in their own muslim dominated lands. . .That's stupid. . .

noetic16: please save the gospel and simply answer the OP question. what conclusion is atheism? conclusion based on what evidences? how rational is it to dismiss the notion that intelligence begets intelligence? . . . .that aint rational

The conclusion of atheism is lack of acceptance of superstition, mythology, primitive fantasies, concepts and dogmas. . .Its conclusion is based on the fact that no religion has ever proved any of its assertion and extra ordinary claims. . .intelligence begets intelligence? Whats that?. . .

Not sure. But I can tell you what religion has done to humanity. And it is not pretty.(Joke)

But seriously, atheism is not a position that is intended to lead to something else. Atheism is a conclusion. What you need to ask about is the system that atheism is concluded FROM. You need to ask "What has rational, skeptical thought that is free from dogma and indoctrination contributed to humanity"?

The Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia has said that all churches in the Arabian Peninsula must be destroyed. The statement prompted anger and dismay from Christians throughout the Middle East.

Grand Mufti Sheikh Abdul Aziz bin Abdullah made the controversial statement in a response to a question from a Kuwaiti NGO delegation. A Kuwaiti parliamentarian had called for a ban on the construction of new churches in February, but so far the initiative has not been passed into law. The NGO, called the Society of the Revival of Islamic Heritage, asked the Sheikh to clarify what Islamic law says on the matter.

The Grand Mufti, who is the highest official of religious law in Saudi Arabia, as well as the head of the Supreme Council of Islamic Scholars, cited the Prophet Mohammed, who said the Arabian Peninsula is to exist under only one religion.
The Sheikh went on to conclude that it was therefore necessary for Kuwait, being a part of the Arabian Peninsula, to destroy all churches on its territory.
In February, Kuwaiti MP Osama al-Munawar announced on Twitter that he was planning to submit legislation that would remove all churches in the country. However, he later clarified that existing churches should remain, while the construction of new non-Islamic places of worship would be banned.

Another MP, Mohamemd Hayef, backed al-Munawar, saying the number of churches in the country was already disproportionate to the number of Christians.

As for Saudi Arabia, all religions other than Islam are banned and there are no churches, although a small minority of Christians is theoretically allowed to practice their religion in the privacy of their own home.

http://rt.com/news/peninsula-saudi-grand-mufti-701/


Yet these same bastard will come and be lying that Islam is a religion of peace. . .Islam is a religion of peace just as North Korea is also known as the democratic people's republic of Korea(DPRK). . . .The slaves of Allah keep leaving the violent middle east in large numbers and going to the infidel west and expect to be accepted and tolerated despite their very backward way of life when they constantly refuse to accept and tolerate others in their own intolerant countries. . .Islam remains the worst religion on earth. . .

Concepts like original sin, fall of man, trinity, eternity in hell fire,eating of pork, lack of circumcision, holy communion are purely christian concepts. . .

Concepts like baptism, forgiveness of sins originated from Judaism. . .

^^
Who wouldnt want and endless flow of women and rivers flowing with wine a midst other things like the ability to fly around like birds. . .

Who wouldnt want and endless flow of women and rivers flowing with wine. . .

noetic16: so where do you want to go to when you die?
Suppose you die and realise that heaven and hell are real and not imaginary, would you still want to go to heaven?

I wish there was a heaven to go to. . .Personally I will like to go to the muslim heaven, it sounds interesting and captivating, but its all fictitious and imaginary. . .

noetic16: Donating your organs does not mean u will make heaven

I don't want to go to heaven. . .besides heaven is an imaginary place. . . .

noetic16: sounds like a theory book on atheism. The truth is that day to day life leaves gap of questions that demand answers. These answers include the question marks on our individual consciences about right or wrong and the origin of life as a whole. Whether you acknowledge the need for a creator or not, you would at least acknowledge that there has to be a purpose behind this material world.

Purpose is what you make of it and is subjective. . . . .right or wrong are also subjective. . . .

ndidibabe: Are you married to an Atheist like you? If single, must you marry an Atheist like you? Do you say any prayer at all, maybe to some gods or something?

Not married. . . mustn't marry an atheist. . .don't say or pray at all. . .

ndidibabe: Do u think Satan exist? If yes, how does he operate? When you die, how do u wish to be buried? Do you engage in naming ceremonies? If yes, who officiated/will officiate in you child's naming ceremony?

No, I don't think satan exist. . .When i die i will like to be buried. . .But will like do donate my important organs like heart and brain for brain research. . .I do engage in naming ceremonies. . . .No body will officiate my child's naming ceremony. . . .

Interesting. . .

Akwasi: Mazajel, I have been following your posts. You seem to have the heart ready to learn but your only challenge is that you need answers. My friend, GOD loves you and I will suggest you swallow your pride and be humble before your CREATOR. Ask HIM for the answers that you seek in life and HE will not withhold it from you.

When you have the answers, I know your life will be full of light and joy

My life is already FULL of light and joy. . ..

The society has laid down rules about what is good and what is bad, I try to live by them. . .Those I feel are not good for me i discard. . .I cry to friends, family or people in authority when am in need of help or in danger. . .There are times that I mess up and just face the music of my bad decisions. .I thank people around that assisted me, if i did it all alone then i feel good for my achievement. . .

OLAADEGBU: So who is to say what the absolute moral code should be? Any standard of our own making would have to be subjective.

All laws are our own making?. . .Who created the islamic sharia laws for example?. . .What is the role of the US senate for example?. . ..

If you call it genocide then you don't know what's coming. God has sentenced the whole of mankind to death because we have broken God's Moral Law. All of us are waiting on death row and instead of using our own subjective moral codes in judging God, we should rather judge ourselves according to the Moral Law of God. When we conscientiously do that we will discover that we have committed a lot of sins and are deserving of punishment. Yet God out of love, paid the penalty for our sin so we would not have to be judged.

You are completely deluded. ..Your God has sentenced people to death, eh?. . .That fictitious and imaginary assertion exists only in your imaginations and not in reality. . .There is NO moral law of any God you are yet to establish it. . .Sharia is the only moral law of God, no?. . . .You haven't answered my question, you evaded it as usual. . .

OLAADEGBU: The main reason why folks don't feel guilty anymore when the sin is because they have seared their conscience. What do you think happens when you remove the batteries from smoke alarm of your conscience? When it is removed you can then sin with reckless abandon without any interruption, and the way to resurrect your deadened conscience is to go through the absolute Moral Law of God which is the 10 commandments and this will remind you that you know that it is wrong to tell lies, steal or commit adultery regardless of what your society says. You wouldn't accept me taking your wallet if I personally believe it is right in my society to steal, would you?

The concept of sin is completely subjective and varies from religion to religion. . .Its a sin to eat pork in islam while its not in christianity, some people consider polygamy a sin others do not. . .The 10 commandments is mostly a waste of time, the first 5 commandments are of no use to all of humanity, instead of those non sense laws like you should not enslave your fellow man, you should not commit pedophilia, genocide is wrong, you should not pollute your environment, etc should have been written instead of the nonsense about not taking the name of the lord in vain, resting on the sabbath, worshiping only one God or not boiling a baby goat in its mothers milk(part of the 10 commandments written after Moses destroyed the 1st 10 commandments). . .Lying is not always wrong, if i tell a lie to save a person's life it is not wrong, its only wrong when I lie to cheat. . .Stealing is not wrong when done to save a starving family, its only wrong when done out of greed and selfishness. . .The Egyptian book of the dead was written long before the bible and it also has laws like thou shall not steal, tell lies , etc. . .people sat down and made those laws. . .No God had any hand in it. . .Morality varies from society to society. . .There is no absolute moral value. . .You are yet to establish that fact. . .

OLAADEGBU: This is the problem with atheistic view of life, you think all that exist are just accidents of nature and chemical reactions. If you can answer these questions then you would have answered your objections above. How can you have immaterial laws such as the laws of logic or of nature or morality if the universe is only material? Why does the material universe feel compelled to obey immaterial laws? and how does the material brain have access to these immaterial laws?

You are the one making things up and running commentaries on them. . .no where that i state that all that exist is an accident in nature. . .what are the immaterial laws? another of your fictitious constructs?. . . .

OLAADEGBU: Don't say what you don't know. Who in your own opinion has the right to say what the absolute moral code should be? It is true that some societies think that it is alright to be racist, others think it is right to kill babies in the womb, others think it is okay to kill people of other religions, some think it is their right to participate in ethnic cleansing. So, who is to say whose moral code is to be followed?

There is no absolute moral code, morality varies from society to society. . .It is NOT absolute. . . .The Sharia law which the muslim sees as the absolute moral law is considered to be barbaric in a society like Denmark. . .People create laws and chose what to follow based on their traditions and beliefs. . . .

OLAADEGBU: Are the Muslims and the Nazis not part of the "everybody"? or is it just the Americans that are the "everybody" you are referring to?

Muslims that believe it is right to kill infidels will support OBL, Nazis will support Hitler because they have been made to accept Nazism by the society. . .Others that have been thought other wise will see their actions as wrong. . . .Do you support all the genocide carried out by the chosen ones of yaweh in the bible?. . .What about the atrocities in the Hadiths? Do you believe they are right or wrong, why or why not?

OLAADEGBU: The Nazis certainly thought Hitler was innocent, the majority of muslims think that OBL was innocent, why would a lot of people in other societies be happy that these "innocent" people died?

OBL is not innocent in the eyes of every body, his followers might think he was innocent, but certainly not the Americans. . . .Hitler might be considred to be innocent in the eyes of the nazis but not in the eyes of every body. . .