₦airaland Forum

Evil Brain:
I disagree. Why should we have to hide? Atheists have nothing to be ashamed of and if some people are so small-minded that they can't deal with someone facing reality, then that's their problem. We shouldn't have pander to religious stup1d1ty.

I'm not suggesting that you should go around proselytizing like the atheists do, we can't all be Dawkins. But it makes no sense to lie and hide like a jew in nazi Germany while the Christians make noise, muslims threaten people and jehovah's witnesses walk around pestering people all day.

If you don't stand up for your rights, they will be taken away from you.

I agree with all you have written, but its a bit more complicated than that in Nigeria. . . .In the UK for example, when I tell people that bother to ask about my religious beliefs that am an atheist (Including Nigerians that live there) most just say, so you sef don join them and it ends there, the white theists mostly don't care even the muslims don't say much. . . .In Nigeria the complete reverse is the case. . . .The society is so backward and intolerant to accept lack of belief because people are too superstitious and indoctrinated. . . .

PrinceA3:
@Mazaje, I would really like to educate you spirituality and self consciousness. You can try some of this things yourself and become a living withness. PM me or see you in your dream soon

I will want to see you in my dreams, pls tell me when you will appear in my dreams and what role you will play in the dreams so that i can come and share with every body or else SHUT UP and remain a liar. . .

Obi1kenobi:
It's even the reverse case with me
I'd rather tell all my friends and cousins than tell my mum or brother. They're very passionate, single-minded, strong-willed people and at 21, I happen to be by far the youngest of my 5 siblings which makes everyone view me as some incapacitated baby. I'm waiting for NYSC posting in June so I still live with my parents - further worsening the situation as they can compel me to go to church. Just yesterday, which was Ash Wednesday in the Catholic Church, my mum ensured I followed her to church so I had to attend an over 3-hr sservice against my will for peace to reign. Of course, I went to a corner to listen to music on my phone but the very fact I was compelled to leave home was disturbing.

I seriously live a nightmare right now at home. It's better with friends cos it's of no consequence what they think, unlike my mum who would go hysterical and probably have a stroke or heart-attack. I just can't handle the drama.

One thing I have come to understand is that it is best to keep your atheistic or non belief personal in Nigeria, you stand to lose a lot when people know about your non belief. . .Believe me. . Just keep it to your self, people are too indoctrinated, close minded, irrational, blind and uneducated to understand anything you say concerning unbelief in Nigeria, a society that HIGHLY believes in superstition, mythology and magic like Nigeria is not one to let your unbelief public. . .

991:
I hate all religions alike but islam disgusts me the most.

You are not alone. . . .

tbaba1234:
Another silly argument:

Women not driving or voting is not part of Islam::: Women had the rights to do all that, centuries before the secular world got a hint::

When did women start voting in Islam?. . .Since when did muslims start practicing democracy?. . .

Now as regards equality

A man is not equal to a woman

Equal means exactly the same::::  Men are not the same as women::

Does a man give birth? No matter how compassionate a husband his to his wife:::: He can never understand what it feels like to give birth to a child::

The rules in Islam differ from men to women for the same reasons: Women in islam are exempted from praying during their menses but they still get the rewards of one who prayed! Why? women suffer all kinds of discomfort during their menses so they are exempted from saying the obligatory prayers. They do not fast also.

The reasons these rules are different is because there are different creatures:::

Women are given the freedom to work in Islam without the responsibilty of taking care of the family: Whatever a woman earns in Islam is hers:::

Intellectual capacity We had women scholars in the muslim world when the catholic church was still debating whether a woman had a soul,

you have absolutely no idea of the rights of women in Islam,  

In most muslim households what are you talking about

So hitting you with a tooth brush is assault>>>

You are ridiculous,

The same islam through its prophet says that women will comprise the majority of hell's occupants, no?. . .

From the Hadith:

Bukhari (6:301) - "[Muhammad] said, 'Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?'  They replied in the affirmative.  He said, 'This is the deficiency in her intelligence.'"

Bukhari (6:301) - continued - "[Muhammad said] 'Isn't it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?' The women replied in the affirmative. He said, 'This is the deficiency in her religion.'"  Allah has made women deficient in the practice of their religion as well, by giving them menstrual cycles.

Bukhari (2:28) - Women comprise the majority of Hell's occupants.  This is important because the only women in heaven ever mentioned by Muhammad are the virgins who serve the sexual desires of men.  (A weak Hadith, Kanz al-`ummal, 22:10, even suggests that 99% of women go to Hell).


http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/010-women-worth-less.htm

tbaba1234:
On the contrary, muslim women do work and seek leadership positions: In muslim countries that we have had female leaders (Indonesia and pakistan) , Arab countries have some of the highest literacy rate for women in the world,  It looks like you need to read a book.

Women do not seek leadership positions like men and do not have the same opportunity to work like men in most Arabic countries. . .No matter how literate the women in the Arab countries are, their literacy level can NEVER be compared to the women in the west. . . .

Is Ibn kathir also a revisionist:He says of this verse

Fear Allah regarding women, for they are your assistants. You have the right on them that they do not allow any person whom you dislike to step on your mat. However, if they do that, you are allowed to discipline them lightly. They have a right on you that you provide them with their provision and clothes, in a reasonable manner.

Ibn `Abbas and several others said that the Ayah refers to a beating that is not violent.

The Prophet (p.b.u.h.) explained it "dharban ghayra mubarrih" which means "a light tap that leaves no mark". Some other scholars are of the view that it is no more than a light touch by siwak, or toothbrush.

Besides there are a number of steps to be taken that,


you are not allowed to inflict hurt on your wife, Other translators use the word pat or tap. And you can only lay hands on her after the other steps have failed to work.

The only form of "strking" allowed in Islam is: "Percuss: a light tap, similar to that used in examining patients."

The prophet (SAW) said : "Could any of you beat your wife as he would a slave, and then lie with her in the evening?"

He also said: "Never beat God's handmaidens."

Again this is classic islamic revisionism. . .Percuss is your own interpretation and opinion and it doesn't supersede that of any body's, some other scholars say light beatings that doesn't inflict any mark. . . .

^^
Martian 

Haribo:
Wow, this is pretty sad. Since I hope to return to Naija sometime in the future, stories like this scare the bejesus (ha!) out of me. My beliefs are more in line with agnosticism, but I'm not based in Naija, and to be honest when it comes to family and Naija people in general, I'm 'in the closet' with regards to my beliefs. Only one member of my family is aware. It's a sad sad situation. From comments above I guess a Naija guy is out of the question. Oh well time will tell.

Are you truly a female?. . .

tbaba1234:
I don't know whether any of you have read the Quran but this is silly talk::

It took the western civilisation to the last hundred years to realise that woman could acquire inherit, have a right to an education and a right to vote and work::

Yet women in islamic societies do not vote, work and seek leadership positions freely like men today, no?. . . .

The Islamic civilisation had women scholars, dating back to the first century of Islam. Our women have always been part of inheritance::: What ever a woman earns from any work ahe does belongs to her (financial independence),  Her husband has no right to that money,

What has his go to do with anything please?. . .Women in the west today do not only inherit property but are so wealthy and have many people inherit from them. . . .The playing field has been leveled in the west now and women own lots of properties and are considerably wealthy just like men. . .

When did western women start working? ,  Our women have done this for thousands of years before the west took a cue::

They work more than women in majority muslim countries and have a better and more level playing field. . .

As regards "beating the wife", the Quran does not permit a man to beat his wife:

This word is often mistranslated as "beat lightly" It would be better understood as the English term "percuss" (Percuss - a light tap or thump) - an action doctors use while examining patients upper torso - light tapping while listening to their backs or chests.

“Men are the support of women as God gives some more means than others, and because they spend of their wealth (to provide for them). So women who are virtuous are obedient to God and guard the hidden as God has guarded it. As for women who are averse in behavior,
1.) talk to them suasively,
2.) leave them alone in bed and
2.) tap them (like a doctor would tap a patient - lightly), if they open out to you, do not seek an excuse for blaming them. Surely God is sublime and great.”

chapter 4:34

We can't  leave any mark on the body of our wives; we can't strike them on the face>>> It does not refer to physical abuse in any way or form.

The values that Islam has are way beyond the models at the time: It transcended its environment.

Say it ain't so. . . .This is classic Islamic revisionism. . . .

[quote author=emöfine link=topic=874577.msg10253211#msg10253211 date=1329946904]Hmmn amazing. Yet I wonder if atheists are willing to marry religious folks themselves. . .[/quote]My girl friend knows am an atheist, she doesn't mind being a passive christian her self. . .She is a Nigerian who thinks am just going through a phase. . .I have no problem marrying a religious person as long as she isn't a fanatic. . . .

tbaba1234:
Both social pressures and evolution provide no objective basis for morality as they both claim that our morality is contingent on changes: biological and social. Therefore morality cannot be binding, in other words true regardless of who believes in them.

Objective moral values do not exist. Morality has NEVER been binding the world over or throughout history. . .There are no "moral values" that are or have been true across time, populations, or even circumstances. All one has to do is consider a handful of example:

Historically. It used to be morally OK to stone female adulteresses to death or marry off r[i]a[/i]pe victims to their rapi[i]s[/i]t, while divorce was morally unthinkable in many societies. There was nothing immoral about owning slaves for the largest part of our history. Today, in general, the opposites are true. So, there is no "objectivity" of morality over time. Morality always changes and it will continue to change it is never set in stone. . . .

Without God there is no objective basis for morality. God as a concept is not subjective therefore having God as basis for morality makes them binding and objective, because God transcends human subjectivity.

Only that it has never been shown that any God sets moral values, we have humans creating various codes of conduct that best fits them all the time. . .You are yet to show any God creating any moral codes of conduct. . .Humans do that and some chose to ascribe it to their various Gods. . .Again, If morality comes from God, then all humans everywhere (and throughout history) would share the same basic moral standards. That they do not shows that morals are regional, social constructs created my humans. . .Humans had to teach themselves and agree through consensus that stealing for example was wrong and deserves punishment. .  .

The Islamic laws for instance have remained the same since the time of the prophet,  That is an objective moral code,  What is wrong today is not right in a thousand years because of social or biological changes.

The fact that it refuses to evolve is the reason why many people are finding it very hard to co exist in harmony with many muslims. . .Muslims are dancing around some of the islamic laws and making them weak because they know very well that they are not applicable in today's modern world. . .Most muslims living in the west for example are passive muslims who do not and can not adhere to the laws of islam in totality. . . .

Kay 17:
The Quran is an update of the Bible, a less primitive book. It belongs to the past.

I disagree, it is not less primitive than the bible and not an update. . . Its just a book different from the bible but belong in the same class. . .

tbaba1234:
I have found that 90% of the arguments I have heard against Islamic theology and Sharia are actually emotional arguments, emanating from the (surprise surprise) prejudiced culture of the critic. For example, in Medieval times, Christian scholars criticised Islam for giving Women too much freedom - now they say Islam doesn't give them enough.

In Victorian times, Muslims were seen as licentious sex-mad hedonists; now we're seen as self-repressed conservatives. In each time, the criticism against Islam was viewed as rational. Thus, the West has made their own culture (no matter what it believes) the criteria of Rationality! Excuse me for leaving flock of sheep, but I'll stick to demanding intellectual justification before I am persuaded.

‎"At a time when feudal Europe was riddled with hierarchy, Islam was presented as an anarchic religion that gave too much respect and freedom to menials, such as slaves and women" Karen Armstrong - Historian

‎"the Muslims were horrified to see the way Western Christians treated their women in the Crusader states, and Christian scholars denounced Islam for giving too much power to menials like slaves and women" Karen Armstrong - Historian

You see why your view is not objective,

Islam has maintained all of its values from 1400 years and they have fitted in every century. If you made an effort to understand these values, maybe you will be better placed to have a discussion on this issue,

As regards saudi , there are a number of things::

1. The muslim system of rule under the sharia is NOT a monarchy>

2. In a muslim State, Every muslim no matter where there are born are citizens

3. There are a number of other things that contravene the sharia: The presence of US military bases in the kingdom, The ban on women driving has no basis in the sharia( The prophet's wives rode camels). there are so many more

Seems we are both speaking different languages. . . .Your earlier stated that In the absence of God there is an absence of objective morality;. . ."Objective" moral values is just an illusion. What does exist in reality, which we humans call "morality" or "ethics," is merely a collection of social rules and norms which make for the most successful social groups among us as a group of humans and these social rules and norms are created by humans. . .They do not come from any God. . . .

tbaba1234:
There have been many books that have talked about the influence, Islam had on the renaissance

The Prince of Wales, Islam And The West

. . . we have underestimated the importance of 800 years of Islamic society and culture in Spain between the 8th and 15th centuries. The contribution of Muslim Spain to the preservation of classical learning during the Dark Ages, and to the first flowerings of the Renaissance, has long been recognised. But Islamic Spain was much more than a mere larder where Hellenistic knowledge was kept for later consumption by the emerging modern Western world. Not only did Muslim Spain gather and preserve the intellectual content of ancient Greek and Roman civilisation, it also interpreted and expanded upon that civilisation, and made a vital contribution of its own in so many fields of human endeavour - in science, astronomy, mathematics, algebra (itself an Arabic word), law, history, medicine, pharmacology, optics, agriculture, architecture, theology, music. Averroes and Avenzoor, like their counterparts Avicenna and Rhazes in the East, contributed to the study and practice of medicine in ways from which Europe benefited for centuries afterwards.

Islam nurtured and preserved the quest for learning. In the words of the tradition, 'the ink of the scholar is more sacred than the blood of the martyr'. Cordoba in the 10th century was by far the most civilised city of Europe. We know of lending libraries in Spain at the time King Alfred was making terrible blunders with the culinary arts in this country. It is said that the 400,000 volumes in its ruler's library amounted to more books than all the libraries of the rest of Europe put together. That was made possible because the Muslim world acquired from China the skill of making paper more than 400 years before the rest of non-Muslim Europe. Many of the traits on which modern Europe prides itself came to it from Muslim Spain. Diplomacy, free trade, open borders, the techniques of academic research, of anthropology, etiquette, fashion, various types of medicine, hospitals, all came from this great city of cities.

Medieval Islam was a religion of remarkable tolerance for its time, allowing Jews and Christians the right to practise their inherited beliefs, and setting an example which was not, unfortunately, copied for many centuries in the West. The surprise, ladies and gentlemen, is the extent to which Islam has been a part of Europe for so long, first in Spain, then in the Balkans, and the extent to which it has contributed so much towards the civilisation which we all too often think of, wrongly, as entirely Western. Islam is part of our past and our present, in all fields of human endeavour. It has helped to create modern Europe. It is part of our own inheritance, not a thing apart.

Michael Hamilton Morgan, Lost History: The Enduring Legacy of Muslim Scientists, Thinkers, and Artists

"Lost History delivers a missing link to the story of an interconnected world: the achievements of Muslim civilization and its influence on East and West."--President Jimmy Carter

Jonathan Lyons, The House of Wisdom: How The Arabs Transformed Western Civilization

This was no mere "recovery" of classical wisdom by medieval Latins, with the Arabs cast in the role of benevolent guardians, as most Western histories of the period tell us, it represented the enormous transfer - some might even say cultural theft - of invaluable Arab knowledge and technology directly to the Christian West. -- p. 196

David Levering Lewis, God's Crucible: Islam and the Making of Europe, 570-1215

Lewis's narrative, filled with accounts of some of the greatest battles in world history, reveals how cosmopolitan, Muslim al-Andalus flourished - a beacon of cooperation and tolerance between Islam, Judaism, and Christianity - while proto-Europe, defining itself in opposition to Islam, made virtues out of hereditary aristocracy, religious intolerance, perpetual war, and slavery.

Maria Rosa Menocal, The Ornament of the World: How Muslims, Jews and Christians Created a Culture of Tolerance in Medieval Spain

[It] is no exaggeration to say that what we presumptuously call 'Western' culture is owed in large measure to the Andalusian enlightenment, This book partly restores to us a world we have lost, a world for which our current monotheistic leaderships do not even feel nostalgia.--Christopher Hitchens, The Nation

Akbar S. Ahmed, Living Islam

It is well to recall that Islam not only caused Islamic civilization to develop but also enabled the European Renaissance to take root and grow. The time when Islam was most strongly established was also the time when art, culture and literature flourished, whether in Spain or, later, under the Ottomans, the Safavids and the Mughals. Christian Europe was enveloped in darkness until Islam came to the Iberian peninsula. For centuries Islam fed Greek, Sanskrit and Chinese ideas into Europe. Slowly and steadily Europe began to absorb those ideas. In England, France, Germany and Italy society began to explore literature and art with a new perspective; thus the seeds of the Renaissance were sown. -- p. 15


James Johnston, Medieval Script Shows Islam's Role in Learning

The manuscript stands as a uniquely important monument to the central role of Jews and Muslims in the spread of knowledge and learning throughout medieval Europe, as well as being possibly the earliest known example of Latin script of any kind written on paper. Sotheby's says that only four other copies of this work are known.


Jared Diamond, Guns, Germs, and Steel

In the Middle Ages the flow of technology was overwhelmingly from Islam to Europe, rather than from Europe to Islam as it is today. Only around A.D. 1500 did the net direction of flow begin to reverse. -- p. 253

The freedoms you brag about are a direct result of the influence of medieval muslims.

Democracy to the west, equality of sexes, acceptance of people regardless of their intimate orientation, capitalism, socialism, right to life, freedom of speech and expression, freedom of association are all a direct result of the influence of medieval muslims, eh?. . . .Is that Altaqiya or what?. . . .

tbaba1234:
On the contrary, i would argue that religion has a lot to do with that greatness,

Please which religion is it that brought democracy to the west, equality of sexes, acceptance of people regardless of their sexual orientation, capitalism, socialism, right to life, freedom of speech and expression, freedom of association, and many of the values that have made them the envy of the world?. . .Which religion gave them these values?. . . .

The western renaissance was born in Islamic spain where religious freedoms; Students from all over the west including some of the most revered people were influenced directly by the developments in Islamic Spain. The Jews had their golden age in the land of the muslims.

False, from wikipedia. . . .The Renaissance (UK: /rɨˈneɪsəns/, US: /ˈrɛnɨsɑːns/, French pronunciation: [ʁənɛsɑ̃ːs], Italian: Rinascimento, French: Renaissance, from rinascere "to be reborn"[1] was a cultural movement that spanned the period roughly from the 14th to the 17th century, beginning in Italy in the Late Middle Ages and later spreading to the rest of Europe. Though the invention of printing sped the dissemination of ideas from the later 15th century, the changes of the Renaissance were not uniformly experienced across Europe.

You can talk about western knowledge being held back by christianity but that is not the Islamic narrative. The muslims thrived under islam and if not for constant in-fighting and political problems will have developed a lot quicker.

Western knowledge wasn't held back by islam simply because muslims did not fully have access to it. . .Western knowledge was developed by the christian westerners and the islamic societies had no influence over them. . . .

Morality being decided by social consensus does not make it objective : It is still subject to human prejudices,

Morality is not objective it varies from place to place and is ALWAYS evolving. . .That is why even though you believe in the Sunnah of the prophet of Islam you can not live in the west and marry a 9 years old bride. . . . .You will be put in prison if you try it. . . ,

First of all, it is called the Quran (not koran):

There is no book that called for social reform as much as the Quran, In a society where slave trade was rampant, the quran consistently calls for the freeing of slaves as expiation for sins and marrying your slaves, A former slave was the muadhan (caller) for the prophet and one of his closest companions,

There are many books that call for social reformation better than the Quran, true the Quran advocates for the freedom of slaves but then advocates so many other things that inspire or repulsion today. . . .

Social change can be slow, but for a book revealed 1400 years ago that was way ahead of its time. The right for a woman to inheritance was given 1400 years ago. The west only had those laws a century ago.

The same book also advocates that men should beat their wives, no? Women are not supposed to leave their homes alone without a male escort etc. . . .Pure sexism. . . .By the way islam is not the first religion to advocate the right for women to inherit properties. . . .

The rest of your arguments are emotional arguments: The Quran does not say, if you are mad at your wife, beat her or if you see a thief on the road take out your sword and strike his hands , It is easy to look at the punishments without fully understanding the conditions that permit these rulings, You are building straw-men. Your prejudices make you see these as wrong but you have to grasp a full understanding before coming to such a conclusion.

The conditions for administering this punishments are considered to be barbaric regardless of the steps taken by a majority of the people alive today. . .Beating your wife will get you jailed in the west, cutting the limbs of a thief or and the death penalty is outlawed in some societies in the west, stoning of people to death is considered highly immoral and barbaric in most societies. . .Islam and sharia advocates that. . . .

What is wrong with polygyny for instance? This has been practised by most communities that have existed and was a means of survival for most of those communities.

The same thing that makes marrying two husbands wrong by today's standards. . . .That is why i said that morality is not objective and varies from places to place. . .Moral standards are not innate or God given as religious people love to claim, but rather they are a product of human culture. If this were not the case, then all humans everywhere (and throughout history) would share the same basic moral standards. That they do not shows that morals are regional, social constructs. Once back in some parts of Africa the right thing to do when you give birth to twins is to sacrifice them unto the Gods, mothers happily did that. . .Your endearment to sharia law for example and the criticism you will get when you try to live by some of the tenets of sharia in the west shows that morality is a product of the society which was agreed upon by consensus. . .You are YET to show me how morality is God given. . . .If it is then all humans everywhere (and throughout history) would share the same basic moral standards. That it is not says it all. . .

Since the fall of the ottoman empire, there is no state practicing the Sharia completely or even correctly, When the muslims implemented their laws there were at the top of the world.

So Saudi Arabia isn't practicing sharia completely/correctly, eh?. . . .Muslims were never on top of the world at any time. . . .The greatest civilizations were never Islamic, the greatest empire was not an islamic one. . .So i really do not know what you are talking about. . . .

[quote author=emöfine link=topic=874577.msg10248099#msg10248099 date=1329905012]I've noticed that all replies submitted here were from males. So it makes me wonder: how is the female African atheist regarded/treated?[/quote]Female african atheist living in Nigeria?. . . I have seen only one in nairaland. . . .No body will marry you that I know for sure. . . .

What genuine reasons make atheist believe there is no God? I find the inability of u guys to provide ONE sensible answer amusing.

What else apart from the simple FACT that all Gods are man made?. . . .If Yahweh truly exist as described in the bible, do you think he will depend on you to make his case for him?. . . .The fact that you are hear making a case for a God  that was written in the pages of a story book to address a whole nation through public speech says it all. . . .Your God exist only in the pages of the bible and in the minds of those of you that accept his existence, he does not exist in reality. . .

Don't know , don't care. . . .

tbaba12345:
Secularity/atheism is not necessarily a good thing for Africa.

Secularism and unbelief in baseless religious dogma is what has made the west great today. . . .

In the absence of God there is an absence of objective morality; What do i mean?

In the absence of God, morality is decided by

• Social pressures - This assumes that social consensus is the only thing required for us to decide morality. If this is the case then the holocaust was not necessarily a bad thing because a majority of germans backed hitler. It means the trans-atlantic slave trade was a good thing because a majority of people supported it.

Morality has ALWAYS been decided by societal consensus ALWAYS. . . .Humans thought themselves what ever concept of morality or moral code of conduct they chose to abide by, they only things is that those in power in the days of old ascribe the moral values they agree up on based on consensus to their various Gods. Does morality come from God? I don't think so because morality MUST be learned. . Do we truly need  any God/Gods to tell us what's right or what is wrong? And if only what God says is right, then where do the other moral (but wrong) values come from? Remember that in history, plenty of terrible things were considered perfectly morally acceptable by God and sanctioned by him in many different religious scriptures like
- Killing children (Sparta, Old Testament)
- Beating your wife(Koran)
- Slavery(OT, Koran)
- Genocide(OT)
-Fighting in God's name(Koran)

Where did those values come from? Where they innate? If so they must have been given by God, right? And if they are not from God, it must mean they came from somewhere else. What is that? And why can't ALL moral values come about in the same way? Why do moral values vary from place to place and are constantly evolving?

Ok here's another one. If moral values are from God, why do so many things in the bible, koran and many other religious text  inspire our revulsion? A short list would be
- Giving the death penalty to kids for disrespecting their parents (OT )
- Forcing a violated woman to marry her despoiler (Moses' law)
- Amputating the limbs of thieves(Koran)
-Beating of people that consume alcohol
- Polygamy(Koran)
- Slavery (throughout the bible and in the koran)
- Mass murder and genocide (throughout the bible)
-Killing people for blasphemy(Koran)
-Killing of witches(koran and the bible)
If our internal moral system finds  certain acts in the bible and the koran (the supposed words of God) very repulsive, where does that internal moral system come from? Obviously not God, else every body will agree with either the bible or the koran. . . .If you look at the islamic sharia law which muslims believe is the perfect moral laws from God, you will see that majority over 80% of the world's population find parts of it repulsive and barbaric. . . .Morality must be learned and it is always agreed upon by consensus, it is never set in stone. . . .

Social consensus can NOT be an objective criterion for morality. Because there are no limits, what is considered great today is not so great tomorrow. And as societies change, our moral values change.

Changing moral values is what has made the human species prosper, 1600 years ago slavery was accepted by almost every body living at that time, even the prophet of islam owned slaves. . .Nothing makes the human race prosper as a whole like changing moral values. . .

• Evolution- Evolution assumes that we are just products of a lengthy biological process. We are just matter. If we are just matter, it doesn't really matter does it? Everything we do is to promote our genes and transmit them to future generations.

Imagine telling your wife you love her and she responds saying " It is only the chemicals in your brain dear".

Like my brother hamza tzortis puts it: God is the only conceptual anchor that transcends human subjectivity.

It seems when you don't have any better point you go about begging the question all the time. . . .We are matter with consciences and sense of awareness. . .Learn to know what you are talking about before making blanket statements

As Africans, we must be able to maintain our values , a lot of which is based on our religious affiliations.

And how have these values of ours that are based on religious affiliations helped us grow as a people? We still remain one of the worst continent of the planet ,no? The BEST societies today are the secular societies and NOT the religious societies, we have Saudi Arabia and Iran as perfect example of societies that adhere to the islamic sharia laws, how are they faring compared to other secular societies like Sweden and Switzerland?. . . .

Atheists  have mostly emotional arguments when it comes to the God discourse.

And religious people have only mythology to bandy around when it comes to the God discourse. . . .

ekwah:
@mazaje lol it seems you are all out to prove God's "non-existence" right? good luck with that. I have said it earlier, it is a mystery that non-believers will never understand.

There is no mystery in it, you guys ONLY come up with the mystery cake to explain absurdity away. . .In one sentence you tell people to come and know your god in another sentence your god is a mystery. . .

Truly all that you have mentioned are in the bible (which I staunchly believe in). Christians have different spiritual gifts as described by Paul in the bible,  I may not have the gift of healing, but I AM A PHYSICAL  witness to it. The belief in Jesus is NOT all you need my bro because the bible says "Faith without work is useless" and  that we should be " the doers of the word and not the hearers only". I am not here to make a religious argument with you because I know EXACTLY what I am talking about.

Do you know any pastor that can restore the limbs of my friend that is an amputee? I repeat the bible is clear. . .Jesus said that WHOEVER that believes in him will do GREATER WORKS than he has done. . . .Do YOU not believe in the bible any more?. . .If you believe in Jesus and the bible then you should be able to do grater works than Jesus as he PROMISED. . . When will you heal my friend and restore his amputated limbs?

Unlike people like you, I have searched for the truth, seen it, felt it, and staunchly believe in it because I have over a thousand reasons to. U still don't get the gist do you? True Christianity is peace for Jesus said "and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free." It's just unfortunate that so many churches today paint a very bad picture of Christianity just as predicted in the bible about the last days and that makes it pretty difficult for unbelievers to comprehend what's really on with the religion. Just keep an open heart, give Jesus Christ a chance in your life and you will NEVER regret it. Mind you I am not as gullible as you think so using the word "deluded" doesn't apply to me at all. you are on the wrong bus my bro, believe me.

You have searched for NO truth and you know NO truth. . . .You only know what you have been indoctrinated with and made to accept as the "truth" by your surrounding culture. . .I say this because I was once like you in the christian bubble of delusion. . .

ekwah:
I never said I have seen the restoration of an amputated leg my bro. I said I have seen GREATER. I think that was pretty clear or wan't it? I don't cook up stories bro, I am too busy for that.

You have NEVER seen anything greater than the restoration of an amputated limbs so STOP LYING. . . .

shushu:
thumbs up recruitment.people generally over think on behalf of those without kids.
mazaje why do you feel sorry for your aunt, i dont think she wants to be pitied.there's so much more to life than having children. after having them, then what? ah you have agirl, when will you get a boy.then you have two kids, when is the 3rd one coming.its so overatted

I feel sorry for her because it seriously weighs her down, she is deeply unhappy, people don't invite her to their kids birthdays, naming ceremony and other social gatherings that involve kids, the harsh ones mock her or use her situation to get at her when ever she offends them, she has her own short comings but the way people use her childlessness to get at her is so sad and just wrong. . . .I know very well that kids (like marriage) are so overrated. . .

ekwah:
As for the guy who asked for a miracle
Miracles are not one sided things; they depend GREATLY on faith and one without faith can not experience it or make it happen. The performance of GENUINE miracles is a spiritual gift that comes to TRUE Christians  and is a function of how close one is to God and one's spiritual gifts. The gift of the Holy spirit and its power comes as one progresses gradually in building  a personal relationship with God.

This is NOT what the bible says. . .The bible is very clear. . .Belief in Jesus is ALL you need. . .By the way my friend who is an amputee is a bible believing christian. . . .He STRONGLY believes in the bible. . . .When will you pray to Jesus to restore his amputated limbs?. . . .Again, prove to me that your God exist by restoring the limbs of my amputated friend. . .Here is what your bible says. . .

Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I go to the Father. Whatever you ask in my name, I will do it, that the Father may be glorified in the Son; if you ask anything in my name, I will do it. John 14 :12-14

STOP hiding your long tail between your legs and take up the challenged remember you said you can prove that your God exist any day any time and any where, lets take the bible by its word and see how you will fare. . . .

People on the other side (non Christians) will never comprehend this mystery because they depend solely on their senses, which differentiates them from Christians, who live by faith.Your friends leg was amputated, but you want me to pray for another one to grow before you accept Christ? Hmmm,  you just reminded me of those multitudes who followed Jesus just because he provided them with a enough food and water and  that of Thomas( the doubtful) who wanted Jesus to show him proofs before he would believe he(Jesus) was resurrected. There is no guarantee that your friend's leg can be "re-grown" through prayers because that is not exactly what Christianity is all about , although miracles of greater and more complex natures have occurred in MY PRESENCE.

There is no guarantee that my friend's amputated limbs will grow because you are completely deluded. . Do you not believe in the bible anymore?. . . You told that you can even tell a mountian to go and throw itself inside a sea and it will obey you. . . . I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and it will be done. If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer. Matthew 21:21

Will you say that prayer already and restore the amputated limbs of my bible believing friend?. . .You have never seen any miracle like the restoration of an amputated limbs so STOP LYING. . . .

You all are so hilarious. . . .He is somewhere in Iraq flagellating himself and causing bodily harm to himself as part of the shia mass hysteria and ritual called Ashura organized to remember prophet Muhammad's grandson Imam Hussein. . . . .

Its very normal for women to feel jealous if they have no kids, single ladies approaching 30 or above 30 get jealous of their married friends talk less of married women without kids. . .Its much worse in Nigeria so i get the drift, There is truly a correlation between married women without kids and general bitterness to many people around them, I have observed this many many times . . . .My big aunt has been married for over 9 years without a child, she is 39 years old, feel so sad for her . . . .

[quote author=emöfine link=topic=874577.msg10241225#msg10241225 date=1329829269]Just like down low gays, some of you guys are living undercover and have yet to come out of the closet for fear of being judged or ostracised.[/quote]Atheist and gays are one and the same to the average Nigerian, I don't blame them though, how can you not just believe in god or the devil?. . .Its a very hard position to take when you look at it on the surface, we are not well educated and enlightened in africa, so we fill in the gaps of knowledge with what ever form of superstition that we can lay our hands on. . .Its easy to blame your enemies for the boil that suddenly appears at the back of your neck than to change your life style or study the actual cause of the disease. . . .

In an African context, both individuals would be seen as deviants. Thus does the African atheist incite the same impact as the h[i]o[/i]mos[i]e[/i]xual African?

Both groups are considered to be pariahs so the society as a aforementioned . . . .I strongly believe that my step dad is an atheist but is afraid of coming out because of this. . .He will lose all legitimacy if he tries it. . .I strongly belives he is one. . .It takes one to know one. . .

I'm also wondering if there is a slight correlation between atheism and one's profession i.e. is a physicist more likely to become an atheist than an agriculturalist? Is the majority of the population of atheists from academic backgrounds?

Sure, there is a correlation, example over 90 percent of the members of the NAS for are atheist. . . .

Another observation; many atheists present in this thread (and from my own personal experiences) hail from religious backgrounds. Is there some form of guilt for the former Christian, Muslim etc. adopting another faith?
Are some apostates still slightly attached to their former faith?

As for now am a complete atheist cos I am in no way shape, or form attached to my two former religions(christianity and islam). . . .I still go to the church once in a while because of family or for events like weddings, thanks giving service (my family actually loves that) and burial services, last time i was in kano i went to the mosque, I found it a bit strange. . . .No body forced me to go to the mosque, just went on my own but will never step my foot in any mosque again ever. . . .

dare2think:
Lol.

I was chatting with some friends who came to visit me, and we were discussing about  Babangida during his military era. My very good friend said he heard from a 'source' that babangida turned into a 'tortoise' to escape when under attack at dodan barracks.

I was shocked!!!
I asked politely, did that source actually see this 'transformation'? ,  he scuffed! clearly getting agitated and saying 'I know wetin I dey talk'
Then he said, ' you always try to rationalise everything' and that 'spiritually, you be novice' and also I am not on his 'spiritual level'

Very simple question and he capitulated. I then asked how do you know one's 'spiritual level'?  what gives one more leverage spiritually'
He scuffed again clearly not having answers, I sensed him getting more agitation and to avoid further conflict, I concluded by saying 'anyway, nobody knows everything, and you may be right' just to defuse the tension.

What struck me was how he clearly ignored all my simple questions and went into a clear 'auto-defensive mode' when all he could have said was , 'I dont know' And this is someone that has spent the last 9 years in a 'western' country where you hardly hear silly statements like that.

My brother, the analogy you painted above is a classic example of what the average Nigerian is into these days. . .I remember when I decided to engage a friend of mine back in the days, we were discussing about evangelist Reinhard Bonnke , he was all over the place telling me how the man is full of the power of God and healing people that attended his revival left, right and center, he told me that i should "come and see the blind receiving their sight, the lame walking" and all the normal mantras associated with the so called miracle workers. . . .I asked him if he really saw a blind man receive his sight and he said he saw so many, I then went ahead and asked him why  Reinhard Bonnke still uses medicated glasses all the time to aid his vision (He is suffering shortsightedness) despite his ability to heal the blind and make the lame walk, why can't he pray to God and cure himself of his own poor vision? Why is he still relying on glasses?. . .The guy got a little angry and started uttering words like, "sometimes I wonder if you believe in God ohh, every time you go just dey ask useless questions". . .

What I notice is when you ask simple questions, they get very aggressive, when they talk about bullet proof juju and you counter with the fact that you have never seen any in action and all are based on hear say or that where was the bullet proof juju when the europeans came and conquered or lands with their old guns with all the juju that was going on at that time(before the white people came juju was what we knew), you get funny answers like "abeg leave story, i know wetin i dey talk" . . . Stories like stolen private parts, people turing into vultures, r[i]a[/i]ping virgins as a cure for HIV, killing people with goiter or hunch backs to make money etc are strongly believed by supposedly educated people. . . .

harakiri:
These religious zombies are at it again. Don't you have something more "interesting" to talk about e.g explain how a virgin can get pregnant without having $ex.

She got pregnant by the power of the holy ghost you son of satan. . . Perfect explanation. . .

harakiri:
That is why the CHURCH INDUSTRY comes second after oil and gas. That is why you can have 6 churches in a street of 13 houses (my former neighborhood). That is why everybody is now an "ordained man of god". That is why one man who calls himself a "man of god" can own FOUR PRIVATE JETS (apart from universities and other businesses acquired with church mugus money) and nobody blinks rather they are ready to defend him with the most insane excuses imaginable e.g touch not my anointed.Simply put, our people are gullible and have always been. It's gonna take at least 30,000 years to upgrade their mindset. Pathetic but that's how it is.

The african man LOVES superstition. . . .Our universities are NOTHING but superstition breeding centers. . . .How can a society be so religious (they ALWAYS claim religion is a good thing) and yet so rotten and in utter disorder?. . .We can't separate myth and urban legends from reality, its always dem say dem say or I hear say etc. . . .silly beliefs in crazy stuffs like charms, juju etc. . Its really sickening. . .The worst of all is that when you tell them you don't share their beliefs in things like charms, juju etc they begin to get angry and utter words like white people don deceive you. . .

ekwah:
I believe in God because I  have seen his power in miracles, signs and wonders and a list of other unbelievable happenings ( I must also add that some 'men of God" fake these things) and have also genuinely felt his power on me through the gift of the Holy spirit. Any reasons why you asked? Thanks.

Please I have a friend who is an amputee, can your God heal him and restore his amputated limb back? Remember you claim t have seen miracles, also remember that there is NOTHING that your god can not do as claimed, so when can I send my friend to you so that your God can restore his amputated limbs. . .If Jesus did it according to the stories written about him and promised those of you that believe in him to do greater things than what was written about him, you should be able to restore my friends amputated limbs, no?. . . .Let us take you on your test remember you said. . .

ekwah:
I can prove to any one that God exists any time, any day, and at any place. Share your thoughts guys.

Prove to me that your God exist by restoring the limbs of my amputated friend. . .Here is what your bible says. . .

Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I go to the Father. Whatever you ask in my name, I will do it, that the Father may be glorified in the Son; if you ask anything in my name, I will do it. John 14 :12-14

I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and it will be done. If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer. Matthew 21:21

The african atheist. . . .That's quite a hard one. . . .I am a Nigeria atheist that spends most of my time in europe, I happen to live in an atheist society, I visit Nigeria like 5 times every year on average. . . .What does it take to be an atheist in Nigeria?. . .It means being considered as an outcast or being ostracized in some cases. . . .If you are in the North its worse cos you will be considered less than an animal. . .Its hard to be an atheist in a very backward society that LIVES and THRIVES on superstition. . .From belief in stup[i]i[/i]d things like Juju, to religious dogmas and beliefs that have contributed little ot nothing to the society as a whole. . .

People don't know my beliefs but when I try to voice out the stup[i]i[/i]dity and senselessness in some belief and superstition people hold I get a very strong sense of disapproval. Example when friends talk about blood money and i register my unbelief, I get some strong sense of disapproval for disagreeing that blood money exist. Imagine Nigerians TRULY believe that when you sacrifice humans to some imaginary demons you will become rich. Its so bad that people believe that diseases like cancer, HIV and other terminal illnesses are all sent upon them by their enemies. . . Why do Nigerians (especially) CONSTANTLY blame all their misfortunes on imaginary enemies and demons?. . Its so sad and stupid that people blame diseases and sicknesses on imaginary demons and enemies. . .Its so bad in Nigeria that people do not believe that they can do ANYTHING by themselves, they believe the imaginary Gods they believe in are the ones that do EVERYTHING for them. . .They believe that their imaginary Gods are the ones that give them peace, make them prosper and hold the keys to their every happiness. . . .Why is the black man so superstitious? WHY?. . .We go to schools, get educated but still remain uneducated because of some of the beliefs we hold. . .Its only in Nigeria that you will hear medical doctors talking about their patients being attacked by Juju. . . .Pathetic. . . .

^^

Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked : who can know it?

This same people that thought the heart is responsible for reasoning and thought brought the concept of soul. . .